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 Ahtman wrote:
I remember the name "Breen" but couldn't remember anything about them.

The Gorn are supposed to be the Green Lizard Men, but instead they went with Temu Xenomorph.

Breen featured prominently in DS9 season 7 as a major ally of the Dominion.
Before that they had about 2 appearances and were a running joke in TNG.

One nice thing about DS9 is that once they got off the "new alien from the wormhole each week" bandwaggon they actually increased the depth of lore and understanding of quite a few factions that before DS9 were super minor or just background races.

Things that appeared once or twice before got to have long developments.


Breen though remained fairly mysterious

During TNG the writers would basically reference the Breen at random resulting in weird and contradictory information, they were never supposed to appear.

When they did appear in DS9 they wore refrigerated suits and were the new big threat who could negate Federation tech, among other things they blew up the Defiant.

So yeah, 30 year mystery and turns out... they're guys in green make up.

I thought they had an affinity with the changelings or vice versa so expected them to have some sort of mutable aspect to them.

I think the only explanation given for their suits was that they came from an ice world and couldn't survive elsewhere. It's a little strange/ bit of a missed opportunity that the interior of their starship looked pretty boring and they'd wear their suits even there.
The ships themselves were a great looking Design though and worfing the Defiant with their strange weaponry was an awesome introduction of them.

I think their main affinity for the Dominion is that the Breen never had the weight of numbers to take on the Alpha Quadrant on their own. Even with powerful weapons and a military society my impression is that they lacked the raw numbers to take on the likes of the Federation and any likely alliance of situation that might arise from a major conflict.

When the Dominion and Carassian's basically did just that the Breen took the gamble of joining what looked like the winning side with the expectation that they'd use it to expand their own territory considerably.


Also lets not forget that they were "new" to the alliance and promised much by the Founders. So they'd not reached the point where the Cardassian'd had where the Founders could abandon them on a whim.

That’s my thinking too.

Having nifty super weapons is all well and good, but not if your native fleet is too small to attack and defend at the same time.

We see throughout the Dominion War that whilst hard pressed, The Federation had an impressive capacity to replace losses and upgrade existing ships. Likewise the Klingons. Not 100% on the Romulans, as they’re not in the war for as long.

Crucially? Both were able to crew new ships. Which as WW2 demonstrated was a huge part of things.

Yeah, it's well possible the Breen were just an upstart middle Power, like say Hungary in WW2. The Son'a also joined on the Dominion side, but they should be rated as a minor Power, like the Miradorn.

Overall ST is very light on information about Power levels of the different factions. Mostly we have throwaway lines and the (not really canon) Star Trek Starcharts. Though newer series use the maps from that book, making them canon, but they were made after the old series.
What we can make from this is that Tholians, Gorn, Breen, Cardassians and probably Tzen'kethi are some middle to minor powers in the Alpha Quadrant that can pose a thread to the large factions(UFP, klingons, Romulans) under certain circumstances. The Ferengi don't appear as a relevant faction with military might in DS9 anymore, but may well be, going from their TNG appearances.
However, new Trek made the entire Romulan Empire fall apart after the loss of Romulus, and apparently the Klingon empire because of the fall of Qo'noS? Terrible worldbuilding for wide reaching galactical empires with numerous, centuries old colonies if you ask me, but it is what new Trek gives us.

I really wish we'd had a Picard season 0.5 before the first season to really flesh out the Romulan situation. We go from Nemesis to Picard season 1 and in that time they go from being one of the most feared power play factions to a fragmented people on the verge of falling apart (yet can still raise a huge fleet at the end?).

It's one area of the Picard series I really wish had been done first hand not as flashbacks and such. To really show how the loss of their homeworld really shattered their powerbase as a people. That's doable, but it just needs fleshing out.

It worked with the Cardassian's because we got the sense that whilst the worst happened on their Homeworled; the uprisings and war with the Founders plus the war with the Federation all hit them on their whole territory not just on one world.


That said ST has had this kind of strange "empires are huge but the homeworld is key" approach for a long while. Consider how many times the main treat to the Federation is an attack on Earth.





Ferengi honestly I think do still have a military, they are just not organised and structured to engage in a major war. They'd rather engage in financial trickery and methods rather than go in to all out war.

 Jadenim wrote:
My favourite ship style is TOS movie-era. Refit Connie, Miranda and Excelsior are the right mix of sleek and purposeful.

Absolutely agree.

The TNG [i]Enterprise/[i] on the other hand, is a fat, repulsive monstrosity. The fact it was designed to fill out the image on a widescreen telly is no excuse.

It’s more than just the shape and external design.

The Galaxy Class was presented less as a military vessel, and more as a luxury liner that could definitely defend itself. The carpeting, the softer furnishing, 10 Forward being a proper bar rather than mess hall.

It was a statement of Starfleets future intentions. Leaning into the peaceful explorers but we absolutely will defend ourselves and how if you really, really want a fight,

An era not destined to last thanks to the Borg, Dominion and to a somewhat lesser extent Romulan return.

Exactly - the Galaxy Class was designed to showcase the Federation at its best on multiple fronts.

It was also designed as a diplomatic vessel, so soft furnishings and all designed to at least try and make most aliens they met feel less threatened.

Crew had good sized quarters, could bring pets and families with them and more. It's a mature exploratory vessel built without constraints.

Enterprise and Original Series the ships were much more bare-bones. You didn't have space for extras; the pipework was on show; there were rattles in the framework at certain warp speeds etc... They were functional ships and in some ways (esp with the Enterprise series) experimental.


Galaxy Class was mature technology built at basically the height of the Federation and it was their flagship.
So yep it also featured powerful weapons to protect itself and even a whole battle-bridge assembly.

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
My favourite ship style is TOS movie-era. Refit Connie, Miranda and Excelsior are the right mix of sleek and purposeful.

Absolutely agree.

The TNG [i]Enterprise/[i] on the other hand, is a fat, repulsive monstrosity. The fact it was designed to fill out the image on a widescreen telly is no excuse.

You are wrong of course, as the galaxy is the best looking ship in all Sci-Fi.
No no, that's not just my opinion, it is a well-known fact.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

The TNG [i]Enterprise/[i] on the other hand, is a fat, repulsive monstrosity. The fact it was designed to fill out the image on a widescreen telly is no excuse.

You are wrong of course, as the galaxy is the best looking ship in all Sci-Fi.
No no, that's not just my opinion, it is a well-known fact.

It's weird looking, short and wide where Federation ships from every other era are long and slender. And the fact that they didn't really copy the design cues from it across to other ships aside from a couple of model hacks using Galaxy parts just makes that weirdness stand out more, as it's so often pictured alongside more traditional-looking designs.

That said, I do acknowledge that it's a favourite for a lot of people, particularly those who started out with TNG. 'Favourite Enterprise' seems to go a lot like 'Favourite Doctor'... and be largely based on which was your first. For me, the original will always be the best Enterprise. Even the refit, as much as it was a much better model technically, doesn't quite capture the awesomeness of the original design.

Well, for a long time the C was my favourite and I'd still rate it 2nd place.
I don't think I follow you, as there's the Nebula and Ambassador that have similarities to/ parts of the galaxy. (The Nebula also appears like what the Miranda is to the Constitution-refit). I also didn't find the galaxy looked out of place in any of the larger DS9 battles.
They even put in a distorted Version into Picard with the Ross (though it looks like a Galaxy someone drew out of memory after watching three episodes of TNG ).
It looks less out of place than the Intrepid, Defiant or Sovereign, so I'd say it's more that the makers always wanted their protagonist vessel to look a little different than surrounding ships (we have prove for that concerning the First Contact ship classes).

There are also other lessons learned during the course of TNG. Most notably the effect of warp bubbles on subspace.

That was partly mitigated by variable warp geometry. It also appears to have lead to more streamlined design. Hence the Sovereign class has a sleeker design than the Galaxy, and the ships intended to be frontline brawlers against the Borg having a further reason for a minimal profile.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think I follow you, as there's the Nebula and Ambassador that have similarities to/ parts of the galaxy.

The Nebula has identical parts to the Galaxy, as it was made by chopping up an Enterprise model and sticking the pieces back together in different places, as was the original Miranda with Constitution parts. The Ambassador has similar nacelles to the Galaxy, but otherwise maintains the right general shape for a federation ship, with more square struts, a round saucer and a longer overall design, where the designer of the Galaxy took a Federation ship, put a hand front and back and squeezed...

My point was that they didn't really take the Galaxy design any further than that. ToS ships were also quite often just kitbashes of Enterprise models, but there were enough different variations made to establish that this was how Federation ships looked, and it reinforced what Federation ship styling should be.

TNG gave us the Galaxy and one or two kitbashes, but mixed them in with earlier, more classic ship designs... and then after the Galaxy went straight back to the more classic (just modernised) elongated styling. Which left the Galaxy really standing out as an odd duck.

It looks less out of place than the Intrepid, Defiant or Sovereign, so I'd say it's more that the makers always wanted their protagonist vessel to look a little different than surrounding ships (we have prove for that concerning the First Contact ship classes).

The Defiant is definitely an outlier, as it was intended to be - it was specifically designed as a warship. That said, it took me a looong time to warm to the design as it looked so different to other Federation ships, but it does at least keep enough other design cues that it looks like something birthed from the same technological base, where the Galaxy looks like it comes from an entirely different culture.

Likewise, the Intrepid and Sovereign classes are a definite evolution of the basic design but they keep the elongated sleekness of the originals, and the combination of rounded and square elements, where the Galaxy was all curves.

Starting DS9 from the top.

Whilst the first season is easily the most uneven? In hindsight it doesn’t waste much time with the lore building.

From the Station needing extensive repair and refitting, to exploring the Bajorans and Cardassians in great depth, it’s not hanging around.

I think it was particularly wise to give O’Brien some early limelight. Not only is Colm Meaney a damned good actor, but it instantly stopped him being just The Dude From The Enterprise. And I really like his shtick of Blue Collar Guy. Also his initial “British Class System” dislike for Bashier.

 insaniak wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I don't think I follow you, as there's the Nebula and Ambassador that have similarities to/ parts of the galaxy.

The Nebula has identical parts to the Galaxy, as it was made by chopping up an Enterprise model and sticking the pieces back together in different places, as was the original Miranda with Constitution parts. The Ambassador has similar nacelles to the Galaxy, but otherwise maintains the right general shape for a federation ship, with more square struts, a round saucer and a longer overall design, where the designer of the Galaxy took a Federation ship, put a hand front and back and squeezed...

My point was that they didn't really take the Galaxy design any further than that. ToS ships were also quite often just kitbashes of Enterprise models, but there were enough different variations made to establish that this was how Federation ships looked, and it reinforced what Federation ship styling should be.

TNG gave us the Galaxy and one or two kitbashes, but mixed them in with earlier, more classic ship designs... and then after the Galaxy went straight back to the more classic (just modernised) elongated styling. Which left the Galaxy really standing out as an odd duck.

It looks less out of place than the Intrepid, Defiant or Sovereign, so I'd say it's more that the makers always wanted their protagonist vessel to look a little different than surrounding ships (we have prove for that concerning the First Contact ship classes).

The Defiant is definitely an outlier, as it was intended to be - it was specifically designed as a warship. That said, it took me a looong time to warm to the design as it looked so different to other Federation ships, but it does at least keep enough other design cues that it looks like something birthed from the same technological base, where the Galaxy looks like it comes from an entirely different culture.

Likewise, the Intrepid and Sovereign classes are a definite evolution of the basic design but they keep the elongated sleekness of the originals, and the combination of rounded and square elements, where the Galaxy was all curves.

Okay, got you now. Not sure I'll agree totally, as, for example the excelsior saucer shape from the sideview has more similarities to the Galaxy than with a Constitution.
And I find the stretched saucer of the sovereign and the triangles from voyager (Intrepid, Nova, Dauntless(Dauntless has become a federation shipclass in Prodigy)) are more of a departure from the Movie- and TNG era than the Galaxy.
As a side note: I think one of the most outlandish looking federation ships is probably the Oberth, but with its specific role it always worked.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Starting DS9 from the top.

Whilst the first season is easily the most uneven? In hindsight it doesn’t waste much time with the lore building.

From the Station needing extensive repair and refitting, to exploring the Bajorans and Cardassians in great depth, it’s not hanging around.

I think it was particularly wise to give O’Brien some early limelight. Not only is Colm Meaney a damned good actor, but it instantly stopped him being just The Dude From The Enterprise. And I really like his shtick of Blue Collar Guy. Also his initial “British Class System” dislike for Bashier.

Well, DS9's first season deserves its bad reputation (unlike 2nd) I think, but the pilot is very strong, as well as Duet and the last episode.
In between they do a lot of building up a connection to TNG, which I don't find is bad fan service at this point, instead it makes the ST world a bit larger. It's quite unfortunate that the Cameos of the Duras, Q and so on all happen in rather bad episodes. Lwaxana's episode is just a copy of a very similar episode with her in TNG, quite unnecessary.
Also, I found the acting in season 1 is not up to later standards. Nana Visitor, Armin Shimerman and Rene Auberjonois are going in strong (Colm Meaney doesn't get that much light I find), but all the others apparently need to find their role. And I find it takes up to 4th season for Dax to become interesting, before that the writers apparently didn't know where to take her and whenever she's in focus of a story she acts clueless.

A first seasons is always going to be a bit wonky for SciFi.

You can hire a terrific cast, but you’re still relying on them gelling and generating screen chemistry. And indeed becoming comfortable in their character and the world said character inhabits.

Once it’s all starting to shake out, and the performances begin to form interesting character interactions? That’s when we typically see a show find its feet. Especially when the actors begin to gain influence over how their characters react to things.

It’s rare any show emerges fully formed. Firefly I think was one of those. From the start, probably because the Sci-fi aspect was fairly muted, the cast was superb and genuinely felt like they’d known one another for a long while.

Where I think DS9 gets it really right is taking the Trek Trope of Special Crew Member’s Unique Abilties (Spock, Data, La Forge etc), and applying that to cultures.

Ferengi, Cardassian, Trill, Bajoran, latterly Klingons, Changelings and so on all get their cultural limelight in how a problem might be solved. And it’s by no means By The Book all the time.

Quark is probably my favourite here. You never really know if he’s going to be comedic relief (and the Ferengi do that well), or exactly the sort of cunning outsider you need. Like when he gets into it with the Vulcan, explaining that right now? The price of peace is at an all time low.

That’s something we see repeated and reused in different contexts at different times. And of course, we get some fascinating character studies along the way.

By the end of it, we’ve delved into lots of new cultures, and seen them used well.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Jadenim wrote:
My favourite ship style is TOS movie-era. Refit Connie, Miranda and Excelsior are the right mix of sleek and purposeful.

Absolutely agree.

The TNG [i]Enterprise/[i] on the other hand, is a fat, repulsive monstrosity. The fact it was designed to fill out the image on a widescreen telly is no excuse.

You are wrong of course, as the galaxy is the best looking ship in all Sci-Fi.
No no, that's not just my opinion, it is a well-known fact.

You must have misspelled Sovereign in there, because the Galaxy looks like a flying turd.

And probably the weakest DS9 episode, Move Along Home.

The one in which Sisko, Bashir, Kira and Dax get caught in a board game.

I’ll be honest. I don’t hate this episode. The execution is poor, bordering on outright irritating. And it never feels like the actors are taking it seriously. Though it’s hard to tell if the frustration is the result of solid acting, or actors just phoning it in because they think the script is silly.

But I do like the underlying concept. Kind of a mix of a D&D session, and an episode of Crystal Maze or Knightmare. I’m particularly taken with Quark being taught a lesson, and how the rules of the game are slowly revealed to him.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a gambling game though, as Quark has little to no agency in what the players actually do or don’t figure out. Also the in-game sets could’ve been more interesting, but budget constraints are budget constraints.

In summary? As with many things I can see greater potential going to waste. And not really being sure if the cast were just arsing around or playing their roles really well is just gonna bother me forever.

I think this could’ve played out better in Voyager, as that could lean into the alien game aspect just as confidently, and raised the stakes as perhaps the crew has to play the game as part of a trade bargain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And probably the weakest DS9 episode, Move Along Home.

The one in which Sisko, Bashir, Kira and Dax get caught in a board game.

I’ll be honest. I don’t hate this episode. The execution is poor, bordering on outright irritating. And it never feels like the actors are taking it seriously. Though it’s hard to tell if the frustration is the result of solid acting, or actors just phoning it in because they think the script is silly.

But I do like the underlying concept. Kind of a mix of a D&D session, and an episode of Crystal Maze or Knightmare. I’m particularly taken with Quark being taught a lesson, and how the rules of the game are slowly revealed to him.

It doesn’t make a lot of sense as a gambling game though, as Quark has little to no agency in what the players actually do or don’t figure out. Also the in-game sets could’ve been more interesting, but budget constraints are budget constraints.

In summary? As with many things I can see greater potential going to waste. And not really being sure if the cast were just arsing around or playing their roles really well is just gonna bother me forever.

I think this could’ve played out better in Voyager, as that could lean into the alien game aspect just as confidently, and raised the stakes as perhaps the crew has to play the game as part of a trade bargain.

I don't find Move along home extremely bad, simply because it's quite memorable. Yes, the idea and execution is kind of silly, but you do remember that strange rhyme and the dungeon they have to move through. There are worse episodes, like for example "The muse", which you just forget.

Voyager actually had something similar with that Horrorclown who actually killed people, but I'll admit I don't like that episode either. But I think I found it kind of creepy back in the day.

Is section 31 on paramount plus for free? The dvd is 5.99... contemplating buying it.

It’s not free.

It will taint your soul forever more as its price.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is section 31 on paramount plus for free? The dvd is 5.99... contemplating buying it.

If you already have paramount+ you can watch Section 31 with no additional charge. It's as free as hitting your head on the table. Which you will occasionally do while watching that movie.

Is it really that bad?

Yes.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is section 31 on paramount plus for free? The dvd is 5.99... contemplating buying it.

Here's how you watch it for free (without pirating it):
Have family/friends get you the DVD/BR for Christmas.
Ok, THEY have to pay for it, but that's thier problem....

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Is it really that bad?

If you want to dive more into modern Trek I'd suggest Prodigy and Lower Decks.
Prodigy is the only modern trek series where they pulled off good serial writing and Lower Decks is just a love letter to the TNG/DS9/Voy-era, also with strong episodes especially in season 3 and 4.