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 Frazzled wrote:
Define white? How does that work if their name is Cortes, or Khan?

And now we get to talk about the concept of 'white passing' and other fun things.

But roughly speaking, anyone who can look white enough to not get gak. I bet I can take 200 bucks and take the big scary guy you imagine when hearing Cortez and dress him up so people don't look at him twice. Unless he's a real hard case it's surprisingly easy as long as you're willing to abandon everything for the sake of conformity.

But yeah, much like wearing the right clothes, having the right name can get you through things or get you into trouble, because it's all about other people's assumptions and reactions.


Seriously guys, you're not guilty of something over white privilege, you're just getting treated at least marginally better than someone else who doesn't fit the apparent mold by society in general. White privilege is little more than admitting there's a preference granted white folks in the US and similar societies. Understanding those little things and watching as people don't give other folks the benefit of the doubt when someone else doesn't fit as well as you do is the entire point of the concept. Don't let some teenager with half a clue get your panties in a bunch by telling you to check your privilege, take a minute to look at the situation, would someone else have been treated differently? Would you have been treated differently with a different appearance? If so, guess what, privilege, because people get even more offended when we call them racists and beneficiaries of racism.

The resistance to the idea of 'White Privelege' comes from the same place as some other behaviors. People want to believe that they are special and their success was completely a result if their own hard work. They don't want to admit that their success was largely a result of them being lucky. Hard work only has a hygeine effect in success (it doesn't cause it but rather a lack of hard work can keep success from happening).

This myth that it is hard work alone leading to success means they get an overinflated sense of self worth and believe that the people who have lesser success are completely responsible for that. Challenging that myth will get resistance since people are convinced that they 'earned' their success and this is deeply rooted in their psyche.

It's not "white passing." The definition of white has changed over time, starting from English Protestant only, to include British, notgern Europe, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, white Hispanics, North Africa, etc.

It sounds like B's because it is B's.

 Frazzled wrote:
It's not "white passing." The definition of white has changed over time, starting from English Protestant only, to include British, notgern Europe, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, white Hispanics, North Africa, etc.

It sounds like B's because it is B's.

That doesn't change anything as long as there's still people on the other side of the white equation.

The fact that more people get to call themselves white doesn't do much for the average DeShaun.

Hypothetically, if African Americans decided to start naming their children more simple names like Jim, Tom, Mark, etc. how much discrimination do you think would fade away?

Part of the reason some applicants don't get response is likely because their names are hard to pronounce, which comes with A LOT of stigmas and assumptions of background.

Which begs the question why black people have to adapt to white naming conventions, as opposed to people in general being expected to have some modicum of language skills beyond English.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Which begs the question why black people have to adapt to white naming conventions, as opposed to people in general being expected to have some modicum of language skills beyond English.

Not to bring Bill Cosby into this, but as he once pointed out the names that are being invented aren't even African in origin. And some of them really are hard, even for those familiar with "uniqueness". Anyone remember the Le-a incident? For those that don't, Le-a isn't pronounced "Lee-ah", it's pronounced "La Dash Ah", as you are expected to pronounce the dash.

 Frazzled wrote:
It's not "white passing." The definition of white has changed over time, starting from English Protestant only, to include British, notgern Europe, Central Europe, Eastern Europe, white Hispanics, North Africa, etc.

It sounds like B's because it is B's.

Why would it need a fixed definition to be a thing? We're talking society, it's not a fixed thing. And passing as one group or another is definitely a thing, straight passing has been a massive argument within the lgbt community because some elements of the movement can live in such a way that people don't even realize they're invovled unless they say something. I'm a largely stealth atheist because I'm not a prick about it, but the moment I say it I'm suddenly shoved off into that group.

It's all about people's perceptions, and as someone who's lived the whitening process from trailer trash(which isn't 'proper white' even these days) to mainstream acceptable I can just tell you that you're objectively wrong. I could go outside today looking and talking like I did as a kid and some of my neighbors would straight up stop talking to me. I know because they don't talk to my neighbor's idiot kid who acts exactly like I once did. And it's kinda painful watching how careful people are around my wife, or the stupid racist comments that slip. Not even hateful, just dumb, so far anyway.

This is a tool of conformity based largely on expectations, while white privilege is a relatively small aspect of the totality of all bs involved, it's one of the bigger ones that we can do something about by not caving to fear and prejudice. Similar deal when I say 'proper white' it's the dreaded intersectionality between white privilege and class privilege. I looked like the 'bad element' or some stupid thing and as such I was kept at arms length at a minimum. Problem is, as a white guy, I can just look right and people drop most of their guard. My wife can't change color, my brother in law can't any more than she can, and they've both gotten gak over it. Which is all a part of white privilege all the feth over again, because as somebody said, vicious cycles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Hypothetically, if African Americans decided to start naming their children more simple names like Jim, Tom, Mark, etc. how much discrimination do you think would fade away?

Part of the reason some applicants don't get response is likely because their names are hard to pronounce, which comes with A LOT of stigmas and assumptions of background.

It just gets you past the first round of resumes a bit more. If you're still as other as they'd perceive your name it'll come right back to haunt you. My name was the second most standard gak in the US, but after people got a look at me pre-cleaning up it was clear I was wasting my time at half my interviews.

Prestor Jon wrote:Does the term white privilege refer to only the benefis derived from being white or does include the intersectional factors of wealth, education, family, age, gender and location?

Only the white part. All other things being equal the while person (in the USA) tends to get treated better due to their whiteness. There are also privileges based on gender, class, age (the inverse of age discrimination), and so on.

cuda1179 wrote:Actually, this is a thing. Women have documented advantaged in education (from preschool to college), societal advantages, and advantages in legal matters.

And disadvantages in a corporate environment. It seems that, for example, a similar attitude gets men the "go-getter" stamp while women get written off as bitchy and "difficult" which in turn feeds into their respective expectancy of wage raises and promotions.

Iron_Captain wrote:To be fair, black men probably get discriminated against more than black women.

It's the other way around women get discriminated more. I can't find the study (can't remember what exactly to google for) but it was done with a mix of white, brown/black, male, and female in all kinds of permutations. White and men got the best results, then white women (if I remember correctly), then black/male and at the bottom the black/female combination. There was also another "resume" study where the while high school dropout with a criminal record got similar callback results as the back man with a college degree and no criminal record.

cuda1179 wrote:Hypothetically, if African Americans decided to start naming their children more simple names like Jim, Tom, Mark, etc. how much discrimination do you think would fade away?

Part of the reason some applicants don't get response is likely because their names are hard to pronounce, which comes with A LOT of stigmas and assumptions of background.

Probably the "sent paper application" part of the hiring process. After that there still unconscious biases at work. But the better question should be why should somebody's name be a demerit to them as a person? Your name is chosen for you by your parents and says nothing about you and your achievements. And if somebody really treats people that differently based on their name why would you assume they wouldn't do the same based on skin colour because the name bias seems to be just a shorthand for their preconceptions about race/skin colour and nothing more?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How does "white privilege" imply anything at all beyond the privilege one gains from being white?

Because it implies that this is a privilege that should be taken away from white people in an effort to make everything equal, instead of aspiring to bring EVERYONE up to what whites now enjoy.

It's equality based on tearing down that which is high, rather than elevating that which is low.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Which begs the question why black people have to adapt to white naming conventions, as opposed to people in general being expected to have some modicum of language skills beyond English.

It's not about language skills. It's about subconcious discrimination. Everyone is guilty of this. You are too. It's not a conspiracy. It is biology.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Hypothetically, if African Americans decided to start naming their children more simple names like Jim, Tom, Mark, etc. how much discrimination do you think would fade away?

Not much. The 'ethnic' names are a fairly recent phenomenon, starting in the 1970s when the African-American population got interested in exploring their roots. Before then they used the same pool of names as other Americans. For example, there was George Washington Carver, Jessie Owens, Martin Luther King... even Malcom (as in Malcom X), which if I'm not mistaken is of either Scots or Irish origin.

And yet...

Edit: Deleted for reasons

The "White" part, imo, is less important than the "privilege" part.

"Privilege" isn't simply the advantages inherent in the societal structures it's also the basic ignorance of the hardships that come along with it.

For instance there is a "Male Privilege" that includes when, as a guy, you are walking down a road at night to get to your car you just don't have a fear of being raped. It's not something you think about because realistically it's not something you have to worry about. However, women in general do. They are targeted and harassed in their every day interactions in ways that men just are not.

Likewise, white people don't worry about getting stopped by police super often. It's just not something we think about until we see a cop directly behind us and we know we were doing something wrong. On the other hand there was that black guy in NY who got stopped by cops 2 times a day (once going to work and once coming home) every day for like a month when they were supposedly doing "random" stops of civilians.

My Peruvian friend has been pulled out of line to be checked every time he has gone to the air port, with the sole exception of the time he flew with my black friend.

They would call the general ignorance of the frequency of that kind of bs and the impact it has on the way they live their lives"privilege".

The best, and easiest analogy I’ve ever come across is to simply imagine life as a computer game. All things being equal, northwestern European descended, cis-gendered, heterosexual men are playing on easy and everyone else is playing on progressively more difficult settings. Sure, some people are amazing at the game on Deity Level, and some people do badly on Easy, but you can’t change the settings.

Read this book and you will understand.

Why I’m No Longer Talking to White People About Race: The Sunday Times Bestseller

It's very good. Hard reading, if you're a middle-aged white man like me.

Vulcan wrote:Because it implies that this is a privilege that should be taken away from white people in an effort to make everything equal, instead of aspiring to bring EVERYONE up to what whites now enjoy.

It's equality based on tearing down that which is high, rather than elevating that which is low.

White people receive preferential treatment and you can't give preferential treatment to everyone. When making people equal there will necessarily be those who now receive less than what they used to because they received the parts that others were denied. Fortunately this is a small group.

Xenomancers wrote:
It's not about language skills. It's about subconcious discrimination. Everyone is guilty of this. You are too. It's not a conspiracy. It is biology.

The social construct of racism is not biology. There is no clash of races hardwired into humanity. This is just your own ideology.

There is actually a psychological mechanism which helps to explain racism -- group formation.

However it's not something we have to accept as inevitable.

Humans work according to rules we make up. We don't just do in the way that animals do.

ValentineGames wrote:
White privilege is a load of horse dung created by brainwashed idiotic American students in those dens of corruption known as universities and colleges.

Same as male privilege or cat privilege red car privilege.
They just love pulling crap out their asses to get attention for their social justice filth.

That’s not true, it started in the US but has spread over a lot of western nations now.

From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

 Formosa wrote:

That’s not true, it started in the US but has spread over a lot of western nations now.

From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

And this is what happens when you let a teenager with half a clue get your panties in a bunch.

We can't let these people talk, or they'll end free speech.

You used to be left, until people were slightly further left.

Their language is harmful, yet you don't see any issue using about half of it.

They'll distort reality and don't care about facts, while you steam roll my pretty basic and stunningly obvious experiences with it that just so happen to align with the basics of the idea.

I know the idiots who got you riled up, and they're idiots. That doesn't mean everything they're parroting is wrong, it just means they have little idea what it actually means, much like you. I'd love to know what the research you did was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vulcan wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
How does "white privilege" imply anything at all beyond the privilege one gains from being white?

Because it implies that this is a privilege that should be taken away from white people in an effort to make everything equal, instead of aspiring to bring EVERYONE up to what whites now enjoy.

It's equality based on tearing down that which is high, rather than elevating that which is low.

Which we can't do either because then we're granting people who aren't white greater opportunities which gets people even more upset, because no matter what we do entitled people get upset when anything is done about their entitlement. Because any re-allocation of resources, potential or opportunity is seen as taking away from white people and thus lowering them.

Tell me, how do we raise everyone else up without offending your sensibilities here. Do we give them white names and bootstraps and pretend everything is alright?

All I'm asking is dealing with your own biases and encouraging others to do the same to accomplish exactly what you claim should be done, that is what understanding privilege is for. I can tell you from significant personal experience that it's no where close yet. To the point I'm not entirely sure the mods would be happy with me telling the entire stories of things said to or about my wife in my presence. Someone from a better background, who is plenty good at her job with a solid education behind her who regularly has worse assumptions made about her than I do.

Who said stop them from talking? Your trying to claim I said something I didn’t, not a good way to start this eh?

I used to be left, until the far left pushed me towards the right, this is a pretty normal thing to happen, the spectrum shifted and my views were once considered quite leftist, now they are not and the ideals these people propose to support are far left.

Yes their language is harmful, so I stated what it was, and yes I will use it to describe it, freedom of speech and all that, don’t want them silenced and don’t want them to silence me, it’s called making people aware.... kind of surprised you don’t want that to happen? Oh sorry, that me being guilty of putting words in your mouth.... see how slippery that slope can be.

I will have to go back and read what you said, but if it follows the usual propaganda that has been debunked multiple times, then yes, I disregard it, I will now go and check what you said however just in case l made a mistake.

You again assume I’m riled up, I’m not, kind of in a blase mood right now to be honest.

As to the last part... I’m afraid you have failed in your reading comprehension, I even put a part in just for people like yourself

“Looking at both Sides it “seems” (as in I’m not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word)”

Which leads me to believe you utterly ignored the first premise of the whole post, essentially I haven’t made my mind up yet, I have been watching, reading and directly talking to people to see thier views and what I have posted is how it all comes across.

If you want to address my points and Change my mind, go ahead, several others in this thread have either failed with bad evidence or flatly refused to.

 Formosa wrote:
Who said stop them from talking? Your trying to claim I said something I didn’t, not a good way to start this eh?

You're saying we can let them speak for us. And given no one has exactly christened them the voice of the left I have the feeling you mean don't let them talk to you at all.

Yes their language is harmful, so I stated what it was, and yes I will use it to describe it, freedom of speech and all that, don’t want them silenced and don’t want them to silence me, it’s called making people aware.... kind of surprised you don’t want that to happen? Oh sorry, that me being guilty of putting words in your mouth.... see how slippery that slope can be.

Just spreading awareness of their toxicity, without for a second noticing you're using their same tactics.

I will have to go back and read what you said, but if it follows the usual propaganda that has been debunked multiple times, then yes, I disregard it, I will now go and check what you said however just in case l made a mistake.

More curious to your sources, you're saying things that are very much inline with some far right sources I'm long familiar. You pretty much sound like the content of r/tumblrInAction. Which is roughly a collection of the stupidiest children on tumblr who feel the need to be aggressively politically active in the dumbest ways.

You again assume I’m riled up, I’m not, kind of in a blase mood right now to be honest.

Yet you think these people are a threat to speech to the point I need to silence them so you don't mistake them for speaking for me. You might not be riled now, but they've certainly got you at some point.

As to the last part... I’m afraid you have failed in your reading comprehension, I even put a part in just for people like yourself

“Looking at both Sides it “seems” (as in I’m not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word)”

Which leads me to believe you utterly ignored the first premise of the whole post, essentially I haven’t made my mind up yet, I have been watching, reading and directly talking to people to see thier views and what I have posted is how it all comes across.

If you want to address my points and Change my mind, go ahead, several others in this thread have either failed with bad evidence or flatly refused to.

Here's the thing, you don't sound like you're on the fence, you sound like you're pretty heavily against anything that even sounds like social justice and you'd be far from the first person I've met who did so long before coming to me to 'change their mind'. Which generally means I run through the actual useful and productive ends of the topics which you then try and debunk with tumblr children and self righteous academics.

I'm talking to you right now, been talking in this thread for a good bit, no one else is talking for me. Don't sit there and tell me the far left is.

You meanwhile are throwing around Marxism like it means something in this context, presupposing that anyone making arguments against you is clearly just out to take out the legs of anyone above them, like half the rest of the thread that's clearly against the idea of white privilege even existing. Honestly I'm half expecting some Jordan Peterson quotes to pop out given the current vocabulary.

What you're trying to claim is the left's stance is really just the social media meanderings of children and loud fools which are paraded around by the right as if it's mainstream opinion so they can easily demonize anything left of Jim Crow. I get it, some of these people are fools, I spent hours arguing with idiots about these things years ago and I know exactly the kind of idiot that's been latched on to here. I once spent a number of days being told to check my privilege by an upper class white girl who took offense when I insisted she would have to do something to be considered and activist, because to her anything that might threaten daddy's public position(of extensive privilege) was not a risk she could take. But I was the white male, clearly I was in the wrong. Right? No, not at all, they're just morons who think they found the shiniest hammer in the tool box to beat people with.

Privilege isn't a bat I'm going to take to your knees, it's a way to for you to contextualize the differences in how people in society are treated. To observe and understand how other folks are treated and quite likely why. All to resolve your own biases as much as possible and work on those in others.

And look up thread a bit, look at these responses, even if privilege isn't a thing, and simple inequality is it, what could I ever do to solve it that would be accepted by some of these guys? I'm not seeing anything, because anything allocated to a specific group is seen by them as taking away from themselves. They don't want to accept the idea of privilege because it would mean their idea of how to fix society favors them personally more than the sectors of society that need help. And if that's true, how does that make them look? I get it, no one wants to look like that, but I'm sitting over here and telling you I've watched this gak happen right in front of me because people are too stupid to realize the black woman with the same last name as me is my wife. Because I've quite freely shifted people's assumptions of my social status by conforming to their expectations. Privilege as a concept is absolutely a thing, I've engaged in it, taken advantage of it and understanding it in the sociological context helped me do so.

Even if it isn't something you like, it's a damn useful tool in understanding people in general. Just because you don't like the word don't try and ignore the reality of it.

 Formosa wrote:
From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

I don't think that you ever were a leftist at all. Nobody who was ever a communist, a socialist or an anarchist would use the term "Marxism" like you do here. Well, nobody who ever understood what being a leftist means would use the term "Marxism" like you do. So either you're lying about it or you never actually were a leftist due to not understanding it and/or hanging with a group of people who didn't understand it. The latter wouldn't be too unusual, unfortunately, because leftist organisations have been in a shoddy state for a while now.

 Formosa wrote:

I used to be left, until the far left pushed me towards the right, this is a pretty normal thing to happen, the spectrum shifted and my views were once considered quite leftist, now they are not and the ideals these people propose to support are far left.
.

The notion that the existence of leftists pushes "normal" people far right is a texbook example of neo-nazi propaganda, as explained here:


https://medium.com/@DeoTasDevil/the-rhetoric-tricks-traps-and-tactics-of-white-nationalism-b0bca3caeb84


It's true that leftist and leftish circles have more than their share of abusers and careerists to toss out before they can really get anything done but that's not really what you're talking about. You claim there is a shadowy cabal manipulating people with "Marxism" in order to gain wealth and power and, well, it seems to me that you've got some "friends" that you should stop talking to.

Gonna number this as I’m using my phone and it takes a long time to do the quotes, so from top to bottom.

1: not letting them speak for us involves us speaking up for ourselves, not letting them drown us out with the usual rhetoric, either showing an alternate viewpoint or refuting thier claims.

2: this I’m afraid is a lie, I have not tried to stop you from speaking, I have not attempted to shout you down, I have not attempted to lie or distort the truth, I have not used their tactics, I have asked for proof, nothing more, and because of that I have been insulted several times, essentially accused of baiting, you yourself have tried to claim what I’m thinking or feeling.

3: you claim they are far right, well everything seems far right when you are so far left, but that’s an assumption I should not make, are you far left?

I don’t know what r/tumblr is, you will have to enlighten me, as for the rest of that, well you have just accused me of being like a stupid child, that undermines you and makes you guilty of something you have just accused me wrongly of, you are proving my point.

4: yet another assumption you have wrongly made and directly at odds with what I’ve said, I want them to speak freely, and yes I consider them a threat to free speech because they quantifiably are, de podiums, hate speech laws in U.K. (as a trained, but not practicing, solicitor, I can tell you that law is a mess), the list goes on, you are the one who is making that claim, not me, you have stated it twice now flatly ignoring what I have said, further undermining your point.

5: this one is a doozy, I am on the fence, I see a good message ruined by extremists with tacit support from the left wing media, this is worrisome, so even if it’s somthing I want to support, I cannot as they go too far, And as an intelligent free thinking adult I reserve the right to change my mind based on new information, like everyone should.

You again try to compare me to tumblr children and self righteous academics, sounds like you have made up your mind, did you not consider there may be a reason why I have yet to use the term SJW? It’s because it doesn’t aid discourse in anyway to insult your opponent, it undermines the argument and you have yet again undermined your own.

6: so the far left does not speak for you, but it’s clear you have heard thier message and agree with it at least in part, or am I wrong?

7: yep I’m directly stating that a lot of the far lefts ideals and politics come from Marxist ideals and politics, interesting you use the Jordan Peterson’s name here in a negative context, why is that?

8: funnily enough I’m not claiming that, however you do raise a good point, the far left does appear to be full of fools, but I don’t believe that appearance is true, or at least hope it’s not, the left needs to keep the right in check as much as the other way around and that means both need intelligent people.

9: it’s a way to contextualise something without using context, otherwise the term would not exist at all, at least in the context you all are using it in, because it is almost universally prefixed with “white” or “Male” but in all fairness... not always.

10: see here your talking about social engineering (correct me if I’m wrong), the issue is that you claim that white privilege is a thing and it needs to be tackled, how? What would you do, if we say it is real for arguments sake, then in order to give to one, you must take from another, how would you make sure that your social engineering actually sticks?

Seen as you mentioned your wife, I’m half Singaporean/welsh, does that change anything at all, no, pennies to pounds you all assumed that because of My country and what I have written I was white....

"The left wing media" would be, what, exactly?

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

I don't think that you ever were a leftist at all. Nobody who was ever a communist, a socialist or an anarchist would use the term "Marxism" like you do here. Well, nobody who ever understood what being a leftist means would use the term "Marxism" like you do. So either you're lying about it or you never actually were a leftist due to not understanding it and/or hanging with a group of people who didn't understand it. The latter wouldn't be too unusual, unfortunately, because leftist organisations have been in a shoddy state for a while now.

Exactly. The way he is using 'Marxism', is 'cultural Marxism', aka an 'ideology' that was invented by the Nazi propaganda machine back in the Weimar Republic as a strawman to attack their leftist opponents. It has nothing to do with actual Marxism, there is no such thing as 'cultural Marxism' (actually there is, but it refers to something completely different). Actual Marxism is quite different from what you seem to believe it to be. (hint: if it is not about class struggle and dialectical materialism, it is not actually Marxism). Marxists not do not occupy themselves much with issues such as gender or racial discrimination, since they believe those to be mere symptoms of the larger class struggle. In particular, they view race along with nationalism as being a construct created by the bourgeois to keep the proletariat of different nations and ethnicities dividend and fighting one another instead of the international bourgeois. This is why people who are preoccupied with the fight against racism often get angry at Marxists, since they believe that Marxism downplays the issue of race and the importance of discrimination.

I any case, the fact that you have such a warped view of what 'left' and 'Marxism' actually are, and the fact that this warped view corresponds exactly to the views mistakenly held by the right, tells me you have never been a leftist at all. If you had been, you would have known what Marxism was.
Please Formosa, don't fall for the old Nazi lies re-packaged and parroted by the (alt-)right, you are better than that. You are almost literally spouting Nazi propaganda.

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

I don't think that you ever were a leftist at all. Nobody who was ever a communist, a socialist or an anarchist would use the term "Marxism" like you do here. Well, nobody who ever understood what being a leftist means would use the term "Marxism" like you do. So either you're lying about it or you never actually were a leftist due to not understanding it and/or hanging with a group of people who didn't understand it. The latter wouldn't be too unusual, unfortunately, because leftist organisations have been in a shoddy state for a while now.

 Formosa wrote:

I used to be left, until the far left pushed me towards the right, this is a pretty normal thing to happen, the spectrum shifted and my views were once considered quite leftist, now they are not and the ideals these people propose to support are far left.
.

The notion that the existence of leftists pushes "normal" people far right is a texbook example of neo-nazi propaganda, as explained here:


https://medium.com/@DeoTasDevil/the-rhetoric-tricks-traps-and-tactics-of-white-nationalism-b0bca3caeb84


It's true that leftist and leftish circles have more than their share of abusers and careerists to toss out before they can really get anything done but that's not really what you're talking about. You claim there is a shadowy cabal manipulating people with "Marxism" in order to gain wealth and power and, well, it seems to me that you've got some "friends" that you should stop talking to.

Thank you for so efficiently proving my point.

Ladies and gentlement because I don’t agree I am a nazi.


Your joking I assume though right?

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Rosebuddy wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
From the research I’ve done (for myself) and looking at both sides it “seems” (as in I am not certain for those of you who don’t understand the word) like this is all the result of a wave of Marxism disguised as the left, modern feminism, social justice, intersectionality etc. Are all symptoms of the regressive (not progressive, there is nothing progressive about these people) left trying to divide people to gain power, socially and politically.

I have seen time and time again these same arguments put forward with little to no evidence, they use lies and obfuscation to push thier regressive agenda, claiming the usual “isms” to stop free speech, even going so far as to attack each other if they are not “left” enough.

This behaviour has led even moderate people like myself to become policital, to push back at the extreme leftists who are poisoning the communities we belong to, I was a lefty, quite far left, until these people came along, my ideals haven’t shifted much but because they are so extreme, I’m basically centre left in comparison.

The worst casualty of the whole social justice debacle is the people they claim to want to help, through their efforts at censorship they have hurt the freedom of speech, which in turn hurts people being able to talk about these issues, their attempts and success of de podiuming people they disagree with is just as bad.

Another fundamental problem they have is a lack of clear principles, they are such a disparate group held together by Marxism that they end up fighting amongst themselves as they don’t see others as “pure” enough for that cause, if you are black and disagree you are a “race traitor” if you are white you have “white privilege” etc. It would be laughable if it wasn’t so dangerous.

This kind of toxicity has spread through a lot of “geek” industries, comics, movies and is encroaching on tabletop gaming now, like most of the western world there has been a concerted push back against these people, the rise of the right is almost completely down to the rise of the far left, people are tired of rhetoric, they find the ideal laudable, who doesn’t want equality, but the people behind those ideals have poisoned the well, they are no longer trusted in what they say, thier actions too have led to a fall in trust.

So long as the left keeps letting these extremists speak for them, they will continue to lose ground to the right, sadly the far leftists usually lack the moral integrity to admit they are wrong and double down on thier brand of racism/sexism etc. Flying in the face of science, flying in the face of facts, they continue to ignore the proof they are provided or distort it to suit thier narrative. One of my favourite quotes from these people is

“I don’t care about your facts, it’s just your opinion”

Let that sink in, it’s pretty crazy on the face of it.

I don't think that you ever were a leftist at all. Nobody who was ever a communist, a socialist or an anarchist would use the term "Marxism" like you do here. Well, nobody who ever understood what being a leftist means would use the term "Marxism" like you do. So either you're lying about it or you never actually were a leftist due to not understanding it and/or hanging with a group of people who didn't understand it. The latter wouldn't be too unusual, unfortunately, because leftist organisations have been in a shoddy state for a while now.

Exactly. The way he is using 'Marxism', is 'cultural Marxism', aka an 'ideology' that was invented by the Nazi propaganda machine back in the Weimar Republic as a strawman to attack their leftist opponents. It has nothing to do with actual Marxism, there is no such thing as 'cultural Marxism' (actually there is, but it refers to something completely different). Actual Marxism is quite different from what you seem to believe it to be. (hint: if it is not about class struggle and dialectical materialism, it is not actually Marxism). Marxists not do not occupy themselves much with issues such as gender or racial discrimination, since they believe those to be mere symptoms of the larger class struggle. In particular, they view race along with nationalism as being a construct created by the bourgeois to keep the proletariat of different nations and ethnicities dividend and fighting one another instead of the international bourgeois. This is why people who are preoccupied with the fight against racism often get angry at Marxists, since they believe that Marxism downplays the issue of race and the importance of discrimination.

I any case, the fact that you have such a warped view of what 'left' and 'Marxism' actually are, and the fact that this warped view corresponds exactly to the views mistakenly held by the right, tells me you have never been a leftist at all. If you had been, you would have known what Marxism was.
Please Formosa, don't fall for the old Nazi lies re-packaged and parroted by the (alt-)right, you are better than that. You are almost literally spouting Nazi propaganda.

Wow A two for one

You guys are great, so again I’m a nazi because I disagree with your world view, this is awesome, I have never been proven correct so quickly.

At what point are you called a Nazi?

Perhaps a miscommunication between the left pushed me right leading to the left pushing people right is bunkum used by neo nazi's, but nowhere in that is the implication that you are a nazi, unless you yourself are pushing the theory of the left made me right as proscribed by neo nazis?

Followed by an explanation of how cultural marxism was a term used by the actual Nazi's.


The only thing attributed to you was perhaps you were never as leftist as you thought you were and are using the left pushed me out of the left into the right as an excuse to attack the left, while you don't seem to be coming back left with anything the further right does (like run protestors over). Yet 'white privelage' pushes you right. Curious.

Comparing my ideals with that of a nazi, alt right, etc.

That is the same as calling me nazi, the insinuation is very clear, and ironically precisely the kind of behaviour I was describing.

I have tried to be clear, I have tried to listen and have now been insulted multiple times, as far as I’m concerned you have all completely undermined your positions and proved quite clearly what I have been saying.