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Things have so much movement that it gets really hard to hide anything out of LOS. Knights can move like 14" before they shoot in some cases, that isn't going to keep anything hidden for long.

Ravagers, eldar flyers and the like. Hell Tallarn ambushing shadowswords, even in their own deployment zone, have a pretty good shot at drawing LOS to something they want to shoot. It's hard to not have some bit sticking out where they can see you.

Unless there is basically an impenetrable wall between both armies like 18" high "just add more LOS blocking terrain" isn't a solution. Not to mention your stupid hive-guard and IG artillery just dominate even more on that type of board...

I say it constantly, yet another issue that would be fixed if GW was willing to use alternative activation. They already realize it's better, they're just too stubborn to apply it to the big franchise.

bananathug wrote:
Things have so much movement that it gets really hard to hide anything out of LOS. Knights can move like 14" before they shoot in some cases, that isn't going to keep anything hidden for long.

Ravagers, eldar flyers and the like. Hell Tallarn ambushing shadowswords, even in their own deployment zone, have a pretty good shot at drawing LOS to something they want to shoot. It's hard to not have some bit sticking out where they can see you.

Unless there is basically an impenetrable wall between both armies like 18" high "just add more LOS blocking terrain" isn't a solution. Not to mention your stupid hive-guard and IG artillery just dominate even more on that type of board...

Those are just excuses, not actual problems. The game is based on playing with densely packed tall terrain, not open fields of fire. Try it, and most complaints go away.

SJ

Seeing terrain gw uses and what gw sells hard to say meant like that. Without scratch building impossible to have los blocking even for rhino nevermind castellan

tneva82 wrote:
Seeing terrain gw uses and what gw sells hard to say meant like that. Without scratch building impossible to have los blocking even for rhino nevermind castellan

Not true at all. Tall line of sight blocking terrain is functionally free, you get the “building blocks” for it with every box you purchase.

SJ

Aka scratch building it. Surely you don#t suggest just putting boxes like that? That's one of the dumpest suggestions ever. Playing with 2d counters is better than that

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah, first turn advantage is really a thing. There's no real good way of dealing with it in current 40k

Set up your army behind LOS blocking terrain? Or IN terrain that provides +1 to Sv cover?


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 Billagio wrote:
Maybe they should bring first turn night fighting back

Also this.


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 Backspacehacker wrote:
Or rip a page from kill team... Druing the first turn of shooting, units enemies that are more then half the range of your weapon profile take a -1 to hit.

Also not bad


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Leo_the_Rat wrote:
It takes a super heavy to fight a super heavy.

IMO this is a MAJOR problem. It turns the game into the haves and the have nots - You either have a Super Heavy and you win, or you don't have a Super Heavy and you lose. So the guy who wins all the time is the one with the biggest wallet.

2 Cadian Shadowswords with overlapping fields of fire and full sponsons still should struggle to kill a 3++ knight using a strat reroll and the grand strategist reroll.

tneva82 wrote:
Aka scratch building it. Surely you don#t suggest just putting boxes like that? That's one of the dumpest suggestions ever. Playing with 2d counters is better than that

Guess you started gaming after plastic terrain was available, rather than before when every piece of terrain was as scratch built. A piece of the hobby has died. /sad

SJ

tneva82 wrote:
Aka scratch building it. Surely you don#t suggest just putting boxes like that? That's one of the dumpest suggestions ever. Playing with 2d counters is better than that

The terrain used by nearly all of the largest tournaments is actually worse than that. Why are you complaining?

phydaux wrote:
IMO this is a MAJOR problem. It turns the game into the haves and the have nots - You either have a Super Heavy and you win, or you don't have a Super Heavy and you lose. So the guy who wins all the time is the one with the biggest wallet.

Totally disagree. Tau can take down Knights with nothing other than a bunch of Fire Warriors and some markerlights. Other armies also have good anti-Knight options, like strong melee characters (Slamguinius, Daemon Princes, Custodes), mortal wounds sources like psykers or haywire cannons, Agent of Vect, etc. You absolutely do not need a LOW to deal with Knights.

Hell, the runner up at BAO destroyed multiple Knights with nothing more than a few golden bois.

Also as far as biggest wallet goes are low's even that expensive per point? Knights might well be one of the cheaper armies to build up


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 DarknessEternal wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Aka scratch building it. Surely you don#t suggest just putting boxes like that? That's one of the dumpest suggestions ever. Playing with 2d counters is better than that

The terrain used by nearly all of the largest tournaments is actually worse than that. Why are you complaining?

Why you think i avoid those tournaments? If terrain isn#t invested no point investing in modeis. And then might just as well play with 2d counters.

Though have yet to see tournament with bare miniature boxes as terrain. Closest was london gt and even there foam was cut and often at least sprayed. And that was waaaaay worse than average.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:



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 MrMoustaffa wrote:


Although to be 100% honest, some sort of alternating activation NEEDS to be implemented. Its a major stumbling block holding the game back and it really needs to be addressed.

Sure, but how does alternating activation solve a Shadowsword vs a Castellan?

The Castellan gets to shoot before the second Shadowsword gets to fire. A single Shadowsword isn't dropping a Castellan in a shooting phase, neither is a Castellan dropping a Shadowsword in one shot. That problem is therefore about as solved as you can get in a board game unless you want to try and work in some sort of "simultaneous" activation system where both players activate a unit and have them act at the exact same time. Which would be very interesting, but I'd imagine quite tricky to pull off with a game that is the scale of 40k.

Alternating activations give you the chance to do at least some counterfire with high value models before the opponent's entire army just nukes it, unlike now where if you go second against some armies you just have to accept that certain models are going to die and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

Rts style. You move and shoot and fight everything at the same time. You throw dice at your opponent, he throws his dice at you and you run around screaming.

Tneva82 is just complaining to complain. Anyone can build appropriate terrain for next to free, given the excessive amount of waste packaging we encounter in everyday life. It takes next nothing to cut, form, base, and pain cardboard cereal boxes into 40k scale buildings, or to cut, base, and paint foam inserts into hills or bunkers. Complaining that someone else needs to supply that for you or you won’t play just let’s the rest us say, “Bye, Felecia!”

SJ

Wait, are we talking about Lord of War type Titanic units, or all Titanic units?

Tatanic units have been around for all of 8th.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tneva82 is just complaining to complain. Anyone can build appropriate terrain for next to free, given the excessive amount of waste packaging we encounter in everyday life. It takes next nothing to cut, form, base, and pain cardboard cereal boxes into 40k scale buildings, or to cut, base, and paint foam inserts into hills or bunkers. Complaining that someone else needs to supply that for you or you won’t play just let’s the rest us say, “Bye, Felecia!”

SJ

You are hard pressea to convincb anything with half the brain that gw intends game to have castellan blocking los when they don't sell any and are so hostile to scratch building.

Besides there's something wrong with game if you need terrain to hide your entire army for game to work.

Plus it actuaily just changes issue. If both players can hide army victory goes from first turn the one who doesn't leave hiding place first. Not good game either. Gw has simply screwed up rules which isn't surprise seeing they approach it like amateurs. Hell they ARE amateurs

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tneva82 is just complaining to complain. Anyone can build appropriate terrain for next to free, given the excessive amount of waste packaging we encounter in everyday life. It takes next nothing to cut, form, base, and pain cardboard cereal boxes into 40k scale buildings, or to cut, base, and paint foam inserts into hills or bunkers. Complaining that someone else needs to supply that for you or you won’t play just let’s the rest us say, “Bye, Felecia!”

SJ

Cereal box "buildings" also look like trash, so they're only an option if you have low standards for your terrain. If you want nice terrain you're either dealing with kits (and the LOS problems that come with them) or spending months/years scratchbuilding it.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tneva82 is just complaining to complain. Anyone can build appropriate terrain for next to free, given the excessive amount of waste packaging we encounter in everyday life. It takes next nothing to cut, form, base, and pain cardboard cereal boxes into 40k scale buildings, or to cut, base, and paint foam inserts into hills or bunkers. Complaining that someone else needs to supply that for you or you won’t play just let’s the rest us say, “Bye, Felecia!”

SJ

almost nothing in my country comes in boxs. Cerals come in plastic bags, milk too, ice comes in plastic boxs, but you need at least 3 to get anything decent size, plus you have to explain to your parents why you bought and ate 3kg of ice on your own. Stuff like stoves, TVs etc come in cardboard boxs, but you can't use those for terrain, becauese without them the warrenty becomes invalid.
You could steal some some crates from ukrainian fruit and vegetable vendors, but that is risking an ass kicking, and which is a much bigger problem. you would have to be good at making wood look scifi. AND then the store owner or your parents would have to be ok with you storeging that stuff.


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tneva82 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Tneva82 is just complaining to complain. Anyone can build appropriate terrain for next to free, given the excessive amount of waste packaging we encounter in everyday life. It takes next nothing to cut, form, base, and pain cardboard cereal boxes into 40k scale buildings, or to cut, base, and paint foam inserts into hills or bunkers. Complaining that someone else needs to supply that for you or you won’t play just let’s the rest us say, “Bye, Felecia!”

SJ

You are hard pressea to convincb anything with half the brain that gw intends game to have castellan blocking los when they don't sell any and are so hostile to scratch building.

Besides there's something wrong with game if you need terrain to hide your entire army for game to work.

Plus it actuaily just changes issue. If both players can hide army victory goes from first turn the one who doesn't leave hiding place first. Not good game either. Gw has simply screwed up rules which isn't surprise seeing they approach it like amateurs. Hell they ARE amateurs

yeah, if the goal is for armies to not shot each other, then why not just put down some sort of a rule that makes shoting turn 1 impossible. Call it fog of war, and the stuff is done. melee armies can advance, some specific ultra rare units can ignore the the fog rule. I wonder why GW havent put such a rule at least as an option in their rule book or IA.

tneva82 wrote:

You are hard pressea to convincb anything with half the brain that gw intends game to have castellan blocking los when they don't sell any and are so hostile to scratch building.

Hostile to scratch building? howso?

Sure, back in 4th they provided 'heres how to do some basic terrain' guides in the core rulebook, but since everyone has the internet now with access to superior resources, it's understandable they wouldn't bother. Is that what you mean?

On topic; an imperial bastion is (just) tall and wide enough to hide a questoris knight side-on - bring your own tactical advantage terrain if you need LOS blockers and can't count on them at your venue

I think it's okay that it's sort of hard to hide a Castellan. Is size has advantages and disadvantages.

Complaining that large units die when they are shot at by units designed to counter them seems foolish to me. There is always going to be a list that hard counters you, but it's likely to be bad at other things. The solution is to encourage less list tailoring, and play more opponents to widen the number of armies that both you and your opponents face, causing a more TAC meta to develop. This is why these lists aren't an issue in large tournements or diverse metas.

How about titanic units work in their own turn phase after normal units for both players after normal units have moved, shot and finished combat. Then the real kick of it is, like age of sigmar the players roll off to see who's titanic units would go first each game round. A game turn would look like this:

Player 1 wins the roll off to go first for normal units after seizes.

Turn 1:

Players 1 moves, shoots etc
Player 2 moves, shoots etc

Players roll off

Player 2 wins the roll off

Player 2's Titanic unit moves, shoots etc
Player 1's Titanic unit moves, shoots etc.

Turn 2:

Turn 1:

Players 1 moves, shoots etc
Player 2 moves, shoots etc

Players roll off

Player 1 wins the roll off

Player 1's Titanic unit moves, shoots etc.
Player 2's Titanic unit moves, shoots etc

And so on and so forth...

it obviously presents an issue for certain armies like knights maybe, so perhaps they have their own rules to mitigate this, though the super knights would still work outside the normal turns etc.

The issue isn't specific to knights or other LoW.
Just armies of only 4-5 models show how bad the turn 1 alpha stike is under the current rules.

So, you guys are saying your model kits come in bags? What about parcels delivered in your mail, are those bagged too? What about canned goods? Chicken wire and newspaper?

The box your Titanic unit came in is the size of 40k building. It takes very little effort to skin the outside of that box to look like a building, and you can still use it for storage.

You can even use cloth to make 3D buildings, hills, and forests with small amount of effort and creativity. And best part of using cloth is that it stores much easier than plastic kit terrain.

Does your community/internet browsers have access to an aquarium supply store? Lots of tall, alien looking terrain.

Does your community have trees, bushes, and grass? If so, you’re in luck! Old branches and clippings are free terrain!

I can only give you a hand up, not a hand out. The fix to your complaint exists, it just takes slightly less effort than it took to assemble and paint the same units you are complaining die too fast. The game is balanced around tall, line of sight blocking terrain cluttering a standard size game table. If you are dying turn one to shooting attacks, you are not using the correct terrain for the game.

SJ

Since it got ignored by terrain talk, I'll ask again:

Are people having issues with all Tittanic Units, just Loerds of War, or are we taking about just Knights?

Each choice leads to very different discussions, and they all sound interesting.

Well the original example was a knight and two baneblades. It's not a valid complaint, though, because you're always going to lose a Castellan if it's visible and enemy has 1000 points of anti tank units and he goes first. It's also worth noting that you could take two Castellans and do the same thing back.

This whole thing is a non issue.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
So, you guys are saying your model kits come in bags? What about parcels delivered in your mail, are those bagged too? What about canned goods? Chicken wire and newspaper?

The box your Titanic unit came in is the size of 40k building. It takes very little effort to skin the outside of that box to look like a building, and you can still use it for storage.

You can even use cloth to make 3D buildings, hills, and forests with small amount of effort and creativity. And best part of using cloth is that it stores much easier than plastic kit terrain.

Does your community/internet browsers have access to an aquarium supply store? Lots of tall, alien looking terrain.

Does your community have trees, bushes, and grass? If so, you’re in luck! Old branches and clippings are free terrain!

I can only give you a hand up, not a hand out. The fix to your complaint exists, it just takes slightly less effort than it took to assemble and paint the same units you are complaining die too fast. The game is balanced around tall, line of sight blocking terrain cluttering a standard size game table. If you are dying turn one to shooting attacks, you are not using the correct terrain for the game.

SJ

No idea what a parcel is, but stuff sent through mail general comes bubble wraped in ton of tape and some old cardboard. As the GW boxs go they seem to be very soft, wouldn't stand on any table, people would start cheating by moving terrain around. As cloth used as terrain, that is true warmachine players here do it all the time, in fact I think all of their terrain including bunkers and trenchs etc are cut outs. The problem with w40k terrain is that it can not be abstract.
As cans go, we don't buy stuff in cans. Everything either growths in the backyard or in the backyard of someone grandparents. Cans are crazy prized too. a 1kg of peas from field doesn't even cost 1/3$, and in can it costs 1$. From what I know the closest aquarium shop is Elblang, that is a 6 hour trip there and back, and they may have no useable stuff. Collecting fish isn't a very popular hobby around here, it costs too much and takes up too much space.
As wood goes, good luck explaining to your parents why you are using fire wood to play.

you'd be surprised at how strong the gw boxes are with a little plastic sprue reinforcement.

Not every battlefield should have tbe same cover.

Lol at not being able to make terrain. It must be tough living in Dilbert's Elbonia. it's a miracle you have a table to play on.

Cryogenicman wrote:
Lol at not being able to make terrain. It must be tough living in Dilbert's Elbonia. it's a miracle you have a table to play on.

It sounds like Poland is having some really rough times, there's no call to rip on them or where they live. We're all gamers here.