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bananathug wrote: Knights and BA are significantly improved by the endless CP battery. Remove that and that BA detachment disappears from competitive builds.
Knights probably come down from god-tier to IG tier (they probably need further nerfs).
5 pt guardsmen is the tip of the iceburg. Those FW hellhounds need a price hike and that d6MW on blow-up needs to be reduced to d3 (hell all hellhounds probably need a 5-10 point hike). There are a lot of under-costed units in that codex (hell shadowswords would be a problem if knights weren't so busted).
The only thing holding guard in check right now is they run into some pretty hard auto-loss matchups. Anything that can stack neg to hit. Those altoric flyer lists are pretty much auto win vs most tourney level guard lists.
While I do agree that Guard seem to be getting piled onto a lot recently. I just don't see those players yelling at the top of their lungs "NO MY ARMY IS JUST FINE!!!!" for the most part.
DE, Eldar, knights and some chaos builds (fearless cultists, TSons princes) need adjusting just as much if not more (they have bad units which need some love but some really good units that need nerfs for sure).
Some of the lower tier armies (power armor, necrons outside of vaults, AdMech feel close) need buffing and a couple outlier units (hive guard, custode bikes, PBCs, tau suits on the opposite end of the spectrum) need adjusting.
I'd say if they could get the codexes near Nids (less hive guard and flyrants) the game would be in good shape. Bring down the big ones and boost the worst ones. Caveat is they should wait a couple months after the last dex's drop so we have a total picture of where we really are.
Hive Guard and Tyrants are honestly carrying the Nids codex.
Without them it would be trivial to crush Nids.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
I say let them go up to 5 PPM. It won't ruin the mono IG lists, but it will shut everyone else up because they'll see how little difference it ends up making in tournaments.
Ice_can wrote: Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
The LVO always springs to mind - Michael Brandt (54% BA), and Mark Wright (pure BA).
But as more imperial factions comes out it becomes more attractive to soup. Even if wolves were to come out tomorrow and be the runaway strongest army of the lot tourney players would still look to add to it.
The LVO was pre FAQ so pre rule of 3 and deepstrike nerf. So basically a totally difftent game.
Those FAQ changes took a lot of power out of those lists as they haven't placed anything similar since. It's like saying flyrents are still good, the FAQ changed the game fundamentally. That your having to reach to pre FAQ results says they probably were broken but arn't now.
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.
The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?
The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.
Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.
Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.
Ice_can wrote: So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?
Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.
Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.
Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.
So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.
Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes
Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.
So having to include another faction in order to play your faction makes your faction broken.... got it
Ice_can wrote: Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.
Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?
Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard
Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems
Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same
No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.
Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.
Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf
You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote: Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.
Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?
They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.
So your argument is if
1. Eldar didn't exist
2. if you couldn't add in soup
Then guard would be number 1
yup you really proved to me with that statement that IG is broken
Did you also know that if you remove the rest of the armies from the game then necrons are broken?
And putting guardsmen at 5ppm would help with #2 and bring IG more in line as a mono faction. Eldar still need point adjustments but that is a different discussion.
Doing number 2 will just deacrease the percentage of IG taken in soup to only include the CP battery and completely screw over mono guard players
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.
The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?
The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.
Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.
Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.
Ice_can wrote: So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?
Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.
Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.
Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.
So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.
Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes
Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.
2 over 50% BA armies placed during LVO
I think you are missing the point. AM players need to be screwed a little bit. Their army is too powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chrispy1991 wrote: I say let them go up to 5 PPM. It won't ruin the mono IG lists, but it will shut everyone else up because they'll see how little difference it ends up making in tournaments.
5ppm still leaves them as the best troop in the game IMO - It won't hurt IG players one bit. If the cheap HQ's went up 10 points as well (as they should) Command point battery would go up 50 points. That would make it close to unplayable in a lot of lists that barely manage to fit it in. The IG player though. Loses a scout sentinel....
bananathug wrote: Knights and BA are significantly improved by the endless CP battery. Remove that and that BA detachment disappears from competitive builds.
Knights probably come down from god-tier to IG tier (they probably need further nerfs).
5 pt guardsmen is the tip of the iceburg. Those FW hellhounds need a price hike and that d6MW on blow-up needs to be reduced to d3 (hell all hellhounds probably need a 5-10 point hike). There are a lot of under-costed units in that codex (hell shadowswords would be a problem if knights weren't so busted).
The only thing holding guard in check right now is they run into some pretty hard auto-loss matchups. Anything that can stack neg to hit. Those altoric flyer lists are pretty much auto win vs most tourney level guard lists.
While I do agree that Guard seem to be getting piled onto a lot recently. I just don't see those players yelling at the top of their lungs "NO MY ARMY IS JUST FINE!!!!" for the most part.
DE, Eldar, knights and some chaos builds (fearless cultists, TSons princes) need adjusting just as much if not more (they have bad units which need some love but some really good units that need nerfs for sure).
Some of the lower tier armies (power armor, necrons outside of vaults, AdMech feel close) need buffing and a couple outlier units (hive guard, custode bikes, PBCs, tau suits on the opposite end of the spectrum) need adjusting.
I'd say if they could get the codexes near Nids (less hive guard and flyrants) the game would be in good shape. Bring down the big ones and boost the worst ones. Caveat is they should wait a couple months after the last dex's drop so we have a total picture of where we really are.
Hive Guard and Tyrants are honestly carrying the Nids codex.
Without them it would be trivial to crush Nids.
Add in carnifex and we are in complete agreement.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/06 19:37:27
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.
The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?
The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.
Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.
Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.
Ice_can wrote: So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?
Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.
Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.
Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.
So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.
Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes
Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.
So having to include another faction in order to play your faction makes your faction broken.... got it
Ice_can wrote: Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.
Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?
Listen to his youtube video again
Not a single one of those lists is pure guard
Guard need another army to funnel CP into because of weak strategems
Everyones issue should be the sharing of CP between detachments as this lets armies like IG to super charge armies like Knights BA and custodes while xeno armies have no option to do the same
No - they don't.
First they stratagems aren't weak. They have +1 to hit stratagem (Amazing). +1 armor stratagem. Over-watch on 5+. Hit on 2+ witch vehicles. Overall gaurd can spam these abilities.
Second - they don't have to take a CP funnel. They just do because they can. It's really not clear how much more powerful IG taking allies is compared to mono gaurd. Ultimately 3 sheild captains could just be 3 manticores or russes...Yeah - if you don't understand that. I know what I would fear a lot more if I was playing Imperial knights.
Its easy to see how much more powerful soup is then mono guard....... mono guard don't win, don't place and don't even get taken. The only success mono guard has had this edition was pre earthshaker and conscript nerf
You've been repeating this over and over and it is obviously wrong. You can't just call tournament results fake news and be done with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote: Also guard did win not one but Two tournaments with an infantry heavy Catachan list in July.
They also gained the most top 3 places in events in the month of July.
Not really seeing how Astra Copyright are a weak faction being punished by soup?
They aren't, AM is one of the strongest factions in the game. If it weren't for Eldar, and how easy it is to add custodes to guard (making it soup) they would be undisputed number 1.
So your argument is if
1. Eldar didn't exist
2. if you couldn't add in soup
Then guard would be number 1
yup you really proved to me with that statement that IG is broken
Did you also know that if you remove the rest of the armies from the game then necrons are broken?
And putting guardsmen at 5ppm would help with #2 and bring IG more in line as a mono faction. Eldar still need point adjustments but that is a different discussion.
Doing number 2 will just deacrease the percentage of IG taken in soup to only include the CP battery and completely screw over mono guard players
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
It does, however, mean that those 5-9 lads should probably be in the 10-13 range, rather than asking for anyone to be 5-9.
The IG have one of the best codexes out there in terms of crunch, competitiveness, fluff, and army composition options. The Grey Knights are the worst in all those categories. If I was a Space Marine player and looking at my options: would I rather my army be buffed to match Guard, with a variety of playstyles and interactions, or nerfed to match GK, with mono-build constructions and hardly any good options?
The worst codexes should be improved to match the best, not the other way around.
Except of the say 20 codex's
About 2 of them are at the 13 range 1 maybe 2 in the 11's
About 10 in the 5-10 range and 3/4 in the sub 5 range you don't give out buffs to 10 codex's to match the 1 or 2 you move thr outliers into the 5-10 range.
Your basically proposing buffing BA, DA, DG,Demons, Tau, Necrons, SM, GK, DW etc to Astra Militarum levels rather than admit Astra Militarum might be fairer with 5 point Infantry.
Ice_can wrote: So a list with over 1k of point worth of guardsmen doesn't show guard a strong its the 3 blood angles captains carrying the list?
Not the 12 mortors 6 infantry squads 3 hellhounds.
Pure blood angles arn't exactlly rofl stomping everyone.
Its having those 100 bodies to hide behind that makes those charictors survive long enough to be able to jump out and smash.
Also by your definition of Pure the onlu pure factions in competitive settings right now are Tau, Necrons and Orks as they have no allies.
Only Crons made the top ten with trip teract vaults which is a pretty weak gimic list.
So far your possition has been Guard arn't the problem soup is, no-one has said soup isn't an issue but thats not what this thread was about.
Guardsmen are better than every other 4ppm unit and better than some more expensive units.
Drukari and Alitoc being brokwn was used as an excuse that guard arn't OP. Just because something else is at 13 and your only at 11 while everyone else is in a 5-9 range doesn't make you not OP.
Yeah so going by your argument because BA are good when souped with guard we should nuke BA to really F over all those mono faction players
Same for Knights
Same for custodes
Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
I'm saying having over 50%of your points in one faction says that faction is definataly not uncompetitive, especially in imperial soup lists.
2 over 50% BA armies placed during LVO
I think you are missing the point. AM players need to be screwed a little bit. Their army is too powerful.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chrispy1991 wrote: I say let them go up to 5 PPM. It won't ruin the mono IG lists, but it will shut everyone else up because they'll see how little difference it ends up making in tournaments.
5ppm still leaves them as the best troop in the game IMO - It won't hurt IG players one bit. If the cheap HQ's went up 10 points as well (as they should) Command point battery would go up 50 points. That would make it close to unplayable in a lot of lists that barely manage to fit it in. The IG player though. Loses a scout sentinel....
bananathug wrote: Knights and BA are significantly improved by the endless CP battery. Remove that and that BA detachment disappears from competitive builds.
Knights probably come down from god-tier to IG tier (they probably need further nerfs).
5 pt guardsmen is the tip of the iceburg. Those FW hellhounds need a price hike and that d6MW on blow-up needs to be reduced to d3 (hell all hellhounds probably need a 5-10 point hike). There are a lot of under-costed units in that codex (hell shadowswords would be a problem if knights weren't so busted).
The only thing holding guard in check right now is they run into some pretty hard auto-loss matchups. Anything that can stack neg to hit. Those altoric flyer lists are pretty much auto win vs most tourney level guard lists.
While I do agree that Guard seem to be getting piled onto a lot recently. I just don't see those players yelling at the top of their lungs "NO MY ARMY IS JUST FINE!!!!" for the most part.
DE, Eldar, knights and some chaos builds (fearless cultists, TSons princes) need adjusting just as much if not more (they have bad units which need some love but some really good units that need nerfs for sure).
Some of the lower tier armies (power armor, necrons outside of vaults, AdMech feel close) need buffing and a couple outlier units (hive guard, custode bikes, PBCs, tau suits on the opposite end of the spectrum) need adjusting.
I'd say if they could get the codexes near Nids (less hive guard and flyrants) the game would be in good shape. Bring down the big ones and boost the worst ones. Caveat is they should wait a couple months after the last dex's drop so we have a total picture of where we really are.
Hive Guard and Tyrants are honestly carrying the Nids codex.
Without them it would be trivial to crush Nids.
Add in carnifex and we are in complete agreement.
So Mono IG players need to get screwed a bit because soup is too good... got it
No man. You are in complete denial. AM is extremely powerful by itself.
There are a lot of factors that makes them seem weaker than they really are.
#1 tournament games do not go the distance and are called on time - I think something like 50% of games don't finish is the accepted number. This means less tabling for AM (this is how this army wins games)
#2 -1 to hit army traits completely dominate the arena. Plus they affect gaurd more than other armies because base 4+ instead of 3+ (being an able to hurt enemies is broken - it needs to be fixed - it even makes OP undercosted things useless because they are hitting on 6's most of the time.)
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
Eldar also need nerfs. But that is a different discussion. Eldar have always needed nerfs except for a brief period of pre-codex bliss.
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
Ice_can wrote: Find me a tournament placing list with over 50% of it's points in Blood angles and I'll look at it.
The LVO always springs to mind - Michael Brandt (54% BA), and Mark Wright (pure BA).
But as more imperial factions comes out it becomes more attractive to soup. Even if wolves were to come out tomorrow and be the runaway strongest army of the lot tourney players would still look to add to it.
The LVO was pre FAQ so pre rule of 3 and deepstrike nerf. So basically a totally difftent game.
Well Mark Wright (above) won the Chaotic Imperium RTT event in July playing BA - though I have no idea if he is still running the same kind of pure BA list from the LVO though.
Xenomancers wrote: No man. You are in complete denial. AM is extremely powerful by itself.
There are a lot of factors that makes them seem weaker than they really are.
#1 tournament games do not go the distance and are called on time - I think something like 50% of games don't finish is the accepted number. This means less tabling for AM (this is how this army wins games)
#2 -1 to hit army traits completely dominate the arena. Plus they affect gaurd more than other armies because base 4+ instead of 3+ (being an able to hurt enemies is broken - it needs to be fixed - it even makes OP undercosted things useless because they are hitting on 6's most of the time.)
1. So some games not finishing are benefiting the mono IG lists that aren't being brought to tournaments.... Got it you really opened my eyes
2. so -1 to hit really hurt guard and are a clear and obvious counter and there are a lot of -1 to hit and this somehow makes guard better because if that counter didn't exist then guard would be better.... glad you could clear this up for me
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
Eldar also need nerfs. But that is a different discussion. Eldar have always needed nerfs except for a brief period of pre-codex bliss.
yup the top tier army all by itself that we for some reason never see taken all by itself because its so good all by itself
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 20:01:13
Pure BA is garbage. BA is basically garbage completely minus a single unit that requires endless CP to be useful but is made useless by the existence of costodes jet-biker captains.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Weird question - but as an AM solo player (Extremely weak player, not army) Why don't we fix the soup issue by issuing restrictions on the play style of the soup? If you add in a soup units to your AM List, it somehow negates Strategems specific to your faction. No more Cadian, Catachan, or Tempestus specific bonuses if everything in the list isn't that.
I really like how they did it with Scions. You don't get Scion buffs if you use that extremely oddly placed Commissar in your list. All AM lists should be that way. Don't get Cadian buffs if that Catachan tanks are in the list.
Xenomancers wrote: No man. You are in complete denial. AM is extremely powerful by itself.
There are a lot of factors that makes them seem weaker than they really are.
#1 tournament games do not go the distance and are called on time - I think something like 50% of games don't finish is the accepted number. This means less tabling for AM (this is how this army wins games)
#2 -1 to hit army traits completely dominate the arena. Plus they affect gaurd more than other armies because base 4+ instead of 3+ (being an able to hurt enemies is broken - it needs to be fixed - it even makes OP undercosted things useless because they are hitting on 6's most of the time.)
1. So some games not finishing are benefiting the mono IG lists that aren't being brought to tournaments.... Got it you really opened my eyes
2. so -1 to hit really hurt guard and are a clear and obvious counter and there are a lot of -1 to hit and this somehow makes guard better because if that counter didn't exist then guard would be better.... glad you could clear this up for me
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
Eldar also need nerfs. But that is a different discussion. Eldar have always needed nerfs except for a brief period of pre-codex bliss.
yup the top tier army all by itself that we for some reason never see taken all by itself because its so good all by itself
The problem is -1 to hit - don't you see it? IG table every army without it but are useless against it. Remove -1 to hit and IG table everyone.
It's kind of like 7th eddition tau. Rolled everything that wasn't a super psychic deathstar (which was also broken beyond belief). We need to get away from things being viable because they are indestructible and everything needs to pay a fair cost for it's abilities. GW learns nothing per usual.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Weird question - but as an AM solo player (Extremely weak player, not army) Why don't we fix the soup issue by issuing restrictions on the play style of the soup? If you add in a soup units to your AM List, it somehow negates Strategems specific to your faction. No more Cadian, Catachan, or Tempestus specific bonuses if everything in the list isn't that.
I really like how they did it with Scions. You don't get Scion buffs if you use that extremely oddly placed Commissar in your list. All AM lists should be that way. Don't get Cadian buffs if that Catachan tanks are in the list.
A fair question. Mostly because the most vocal part of the community are the tournament players and they don't want their tournament lists nerfed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/06 20:11:31
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: No man. You are in complete denial. AM is extremely powerful by itself.
There are a lot of factors that makes them seem weaker than they really are.
#1 tournament games do not go the distance and are called on time - I think something like 50% of games don't finish is the accepted number. This means less tabling for AM (this is how this army wins games)
#2 -1 to hit army traits completely dominate the arena. Plus they affect gaurd more than other armies because base 4+ instead of 3+ (being an able to hurt enemies is broken - it needs to be fixed - it even makes OP undercosted things useless because they are hitting on 6's most of the time.)
1. So some games not finishing are benefiting the mono IG lists that aren't being brought to tournaments.... Got it you really opened my eyes
2. so -1 to hit really hurt guard and are a clear and obvious counter and there are a lot of -1 to hit and this somehow makes guard better because if that counter didn't exist then guard would be better.... glad you could clear this up for me
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
Eldar also need nerfs. But that is a different discussion. Eldar have always needed nerfs except for a brief period of pre-codex bliss.
yup the top tier army all by itself that we for some reason never see taken all by itself because its so good all by itself
The problem is -1 to hit - don't you see it? IG table every army without it but are useless against it. Remove -1 to hit and IG table everyone.
It's kind of like 7th eddition tau. Rolled everything that wasn't a super psychic deathstar (which was also broken beyond belief). We need to get away from things being viable because they are indestructible and everything needs to pay a fair cost for it's abilities. GW learns nothing per usual.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Weird question - but as an AM solo player (Extremely weak player, not army) Why don't we fix the soup issue by issuing restrictions on the play style of the soup? If you add in a soup units to your AM List, it somehow negates Strategems specific to your faction. No more Cadian, Catachan, or Tempestus specific bonuses if everything in the list isn't that.
I really like how they did it with Scions. You don't get Scion buffs if you use that extremely oddly placed Commissar in your list. All AM lists should be that way. Don't get Cadian buffs if that Catachan tanks are in the list.
A fair question. Mostly because the most vocal part of the community are the tournament players and they don't want their tournament lists nerfed.
So once again there is an obvious counter that exists across multiple factions and this somehow makes guard too good?
Not to mention mono guard isnt auto tabling any opponent without -1 to hit or we would see them occasionally winning GTs just buy getting lucky list dogging especially with the previlence of knights right now
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Weird question - but as an AM solo player (Extremely weak player, not army) Why don't we fix the soup issue by issuing restrictions on the play style of the soup? If you add in a soup units to your AM List, it somehow negates Strategems specific to your faction. No more Cadian, Catachan, or Tempestus specific bonuses if everything in the list isn't that.
I really like how they did it with Scions. You don't get Scion buffs if you use that extremely oddly placed Commissar in your list. All AM lists should be that way. Don't get Cadian buffs if that Catachan tanks are in the list.
Yup..... hell why not even raise the cost of a guardsman to 5-6 points if your army included a detachment of non IG. I simply hate the idea of hurting an entire codex that on its own is not dominating the scene all because tournament players abuse soup
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 20:16:34
IG don't need nerfed. In my mind they are where EVERY army should be in terms of fluff and competitiveness.
SM, and GK are the two codices that need major buffs. Some of the other codices might need minor buffs but they are in a pretty good spot TBH.
It's true that IG is one of the better codices this edition... But it's kind of funny that IG seems to be the "standout" when DE, Eldar, Knights, Custodes, and a few others can all go toe to toe with them and are up with IG at the "top".
It makes more sense to lift the bottom up then knock the top down.
w1zard wrote: IG don't need nerfed. In my mind they are where EVERY army should be in terms of fluff and competitiveness.
SM, and GK are the two codices that need major buffs. Some of the other codices might need minor buffs but they are in a pretty good spot TBH.
It's true that IG is one of the better codices this edition... But it's kind of funny that IG seems to be the "standout" when DE, Eldar, Knights, Custodes, and a few others can all go toe to toe with them and are up with IG at the "top".
It makes more sense to lift the bottom up then knock the top down.
Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.
Of the others you list - DE - they are another of the low cost units that need to be looked at. Eldar - its the -1 to hit army wide rule mostly, then both Knights and Custodes require CP batteries in order to get to broken levels. You could argue that a balancing feature of their codices is a low CP limit, but if soup itself is nerfed without seeing some bone tossed to them to generate their own CP, you'll just see those units disappear entirely from the meta.
A better option for that later point would be to combine the mild nerf to Guardsmen to some sort of bonus CP generation to other factions. The CP battery becomes slightly more expensive, and a new source of CP means that it is slightly less needed. That way you'd see an actual decision to be made.
I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but if more elite Troop options (10+ ppm) generated CP on their own, it would help justify their costs and reduce the need for a battery. A be all, end all solution - probably not, but CP generation does need to be looked at.
Trollbert wrote: If each army was adjusted to IG level, wouldn't getting first turn matter too much?
Wouldn't it be better for the game if tabling was rarer than it is now?
Thats an Igougo problem. It's always the most important factor in a situation like this. Or there is too much LOS terrain and going first is actually really bad. You could tone this down by decreasing DPP by 50% on all units. Even then there would still be an obvious advantage for going first.
The idea here is to make games go quicker though - 40k games take freaking forever.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/06 20:42:55
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Trollbert wrote: If each army was adjusted to IG level, wouldn't getting first turn matter too much?
Wouldn't it be better for the game if tabling was rarer than it is now?
Thats an Igougo problem. It's always the most important factor in a situation like this. Or there is too much LOS terrain and going first is actually really bad. You could tone this down by decreasing DPP by 50% on all units. Even then there would still be an obvious advantage for going first.
Of couse, but isn't it also a problem of damage potential being much cheaper than tanking potential? I think someone posted that a 3 Dissie Ravager has a 50% point return rate against primaris on average rolls. If there are other units that can be this effective against the right targets, it is theoretically possbile to table an army by the end of turn 2.
IMO this can't be the level the game should evolve towards.
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.
Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.
Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.
Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.
You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 20:52:28
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.
Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.
Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.
Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.
You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.
I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.
3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
IG players are this edition's Eldar players. Plain and simple. The whole codex is undercosted for the most part. The fact that soup lists can find a few units in other codices to fill some niche with still more undercosted units is irrelevant to the fact that IG is undercosted across the board.
And yes, time limits hurt IG a LOT. But come to our FLGS, and I bet by turn 6/7, you'll have very few models left, if any, vs IG. Tournies don't get to turn 6/7, tainting that data, imo.
"This armies were 90% Imperial Guard and they ended uup all in the top 10"
-"B-b-bu they aren't pure guard so that means Imperial Guard sucks!"
If you fix the sharing of CP (I'm not saying you shouldn't fix that problem) youll destroy soups, custodes, imperial knights, BA. But not Imperial Guard. You'll only make Eldar even more dominant.
Or we could just fix Guard without destroying souping options like Tyr + GSC that aren't only good but even necessary since many factions are not designed to be played STANDALONE (Knights, GK, Harlequins, Custodes, GSC and so on)
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.
Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.
Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.
Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.
You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.
I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.
3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.
It's amazing that none of the top players have thought of this yet. You should let them know..... Or better yet go win the next major GT super easily.... Hell why not win the entire ITC super easily and the LVO and make an easy like 5 grand in prizes and cash
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Martel732 wrote: IG players are this edition's Eldar players. Plain and simple. The whole codex is undercosted for the most part. The fact that soup lists can find a few units in other codices to fill some niche with still more undercosted units is irrelevant to the fact that IG is undercosted across the board.
And yes, time limits hurt IG a LOT. But come to our FLGS, and I bet by turn 6/7, you'll have very few models left, if any, vs IG. Tournies don't get to turn 6/7, tainting that data, imo.
Every top table game at the BAO went to the natural conclusion of the game with only one player running out of time on their clock...... But yup data tainted because... reasons
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 21:12:34
1. It is an overpowered top-tier army by itself.
2. It creates a lot of imbalance due to the Imperium keyword and command point generation, as well as cheap chaff, and all the reasons in #1.
When the two of you cite things and aren't even remotely right or providing context, it demolishes your arguments.
Additionally, I'm still waiting to see full "overpowered top-tier" army lists where there are 0 allies present at all.
Meh, 5 point Guardsmen won't kill the codex. A lot of the lowest cost units in the game need a looking over on their points, not just Guard, but doing this will A) give Conscripts a reason to exist again and B) give a mild nerf to Guard armies and CP batteries without completely invalidating them.
Conscripts don't "need a reason to exist again". They're the reason we're in this stupid mess in the first place.
You want a fix to CP batteries? Too bad. People whined they didn't want formations anymore. That's how you get additional CPs in AoS. Battalions give you a one-time boost, in addition to the 1 CP you generate per turn or from a Relic.
I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.
3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.
If that army could win any tournament without even using command points then why isn't it?
I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.
So that you reply to, but my deconstructing your whines about Guard stratagems you ignore? Interesting.
3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.
Has anyone actually seen any nonsense list like this out there?
IMO this can't be the level the game should evolve towards.
It can get much more fun than that. Point your Dissies towards Aggressors and watch the salt flow. I think you can push 100%.
I can vaguely sympathize with the idea that 40k games shouldn't go on and on forever - but the shorter they are, the more it comes down to gimmicks.
"I go first, I kill 40% of your army."
"Aha, I put almost everything important in deepstrike, and try to LOS block the rest, so I effectively go first."
"Well then I guess I'll do the same."
Well isn't this fun.
If things did less damage - or at least there were more specializations and counters - you might see more cat and mouse play, more clever maneuvering (as against gimmicky assault abuse imported from AoS).
I think this would be better - but its a bit late now.
DE being overpowered is kind of fun after many editions of hard mode, but its pretty obvious many things are too cheap. Its far too easy.
Which is sort of why I don't get this whole "my IG are fine, its soup that's the problem." Are you really saying at your FLGS you don't mop Marine players off the table more or less with impunity because you have comfortably double or more the firepower for their points? I don't believe you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 21:53:10
Martel732 wrote: I'm talking in general, not BAO specifically. I've personally witnessed many tables that IG could steamrolled with an extra hour. So don't lecture me.
Yup your personal experience counters some actual statistical analysis of a major GT thanks for your input
I'd post you an IG army that could easily win tournaments but a bunch of crap arguments would be presented.
So that you reply to, but my deconstructing your whines about Guard stratagems you ignore? Interesting.
3 command russ/ 3 manticores/ 3 basalisk and a ton of infantry and maybe scout sentinels. That army could win any tournament. It doesn't even need command points really ether. Probably works best with catachans and straken.
Has anyone actually seen any nonsense list like this out there?
No all these "doomsday" all guard lists that are brought up weekly in some "nuke guard" thread don't actually exist. It's just as ridiculous as him stating he could make an all IG list that would "win any tournament" yet nobody in the entire ITC has figured this out yet.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/06 22:01:46
Which is sort of why I don't get this whole "my IG are fine, its soup that's the problem." Are you really saying at your FLGS you don't mop Marine players off the table more or less with impunity because you have comfortably double or more the firepower for their points? I don't believe you.
And here's where the problem exists.
Against people just playing super casual, someone bringing an optimized Guard list is going to wreck face. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.
But then when you start seeing similarly "optimized" lists...the game shifts.
Just like when you see the super casual Guard hodgepodge lists, they're (shock! horror!) not just guaranteed a win.
- 10,000 pts 
