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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

Hard to say it's degrading the effectiveness of an order when the Order is effectively still 6+ free shots instead of 9. Poor you :(

So you're for having to choose which auras apply and making them more restrictive weapon-wise?

Cool! Great to hear!

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

But in practice, its not. Table coverage is a thing. Being forced to castle sucks.

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

You're buffing a weaker gun with a worse BS. Again, Guard are better than Marines, no argument there, but why demand Guard be nerfed instead of buffing Marines?

Where is everyone getting these hundreds of shots from? 1x 10 man squad has 9 lasguns, sgt has a pistol. so in Rapid fire range, that's 18 shots. with FRSSRF that is doubled, so 36 shots. Per 10 man squad. So you need 3x squads all firing to get 100 shots. There is no list in existence that wins with any major frequency that uses the 6x unaltered 10 man squads that is required to get 200 shots.

Finally, to get this Game breaking majesty, you have to expend all your orders on this, for the turn. Lets not spend any orders on Take Aim, or an extra Melee round for the bullgryns, or a extra advance order. No, the only thing used in mathhammer tourny is FRFSRF. This is extremely hard to pull off with any regularity, and it only happens with extremely stupid opponents that charge into 12" range of ALL 6 GUARD SQUADS.

The end of this arguement is this. The game was balanced around a very key idea. YOU AREN'T A COMPLETE MORON. I now know that GW balanced the game wrong, because you man babies are completely gak at this game. For emperors sake you keep arguing like AM players are running around with unaltered 10 man squads. No one does this. It's a crappy tactic that will lose you the game.

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

So then what does "Take Aim!" do? Let you target characters without penalty?

I'd be down for FRFSRF seeing more utility(affecting all the weapons in a squad) in exchange for some kind of penalty.

Maybe something like:

First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!: Until your next turn, models in this unit get to fire twice with their weapon when firing Overwatch. They cannot fire or charge or fight in combat during your turn or they lose this bonus.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

So then what does "Take Aim!" do? Let you target characters without penalty?

I'd be down for FRFSRF seeing more utility(affecting all the weapons in a squad) in exchange for some kind of penalty.

Maybe something like:

First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!: Until your next turn, models in this unit get to fire twice with their weapon when firing Overwatch. They cannot fire or charge or fight in combat during your turn or they lose this bonus.

Eh, that's pretty crappy. You get 1/6*2=1/3 hits per normal shot, as compared to the straight 1/2 you get from shooting normally.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

You're buffing a weaker gun with a worse BS. Again, Guard are better than Marines, no argument there, but why demand Guard be nerfed instead of buffing Marines?

Marines are unlikely to get buffs big enough to close the gap. That's why.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

So then what does "Take Aim!" do? Let you target characters without penalty?

I'd be down for FRFSRF seeing more utility(affecting all the weapons in a squad) in exchange for some kind of penalty.

Maybe something like:

First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire!: Until your next turn, models in this unit get to fire twice with their weapon when firing Overwatch. They cannot fire or charge or fight in combat during your turn or they lose this bonus.

Eh, that's pretty crappy. You get 1/6*2=1/3 hits per normal shot, as compared to the straight 1/2 you get from shooting normally.

By "fire twice", I mean they actually get to perform two shooting attack chains.

Ie: 2 shots for RF range and then another 2 shots for RF range, heavy 3*2, etc.

Since it's all on 6s and only on specific units for Overwatch, you'd think the haters would be all about this.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

60 points to fill HQ requirements for a batallion and turn 54 shots into 108....it's absolutely insane man. Probably also twinlinking a mortar unit too.

The aura hq is still only 1 hq too. You have to bye another. So the end result is - you have a batallion that is super buffed and I have 2 hq's with nothing buff yet.

60 points gets you four orders. Just four. So you can only FRFSRF four squads, for 36 into 72 shots.

And Marines can buy a Lieutenant, which stacks just fine with a Captain/Chapter Master. Guard can get a Commisar, if they want... Which sucks.

Note: I'm not saying Marines are as good as guard. They aren't-but again, why say "Nerf Guard!" when guard are in a good place, especially in relation to being able to run different things and still perform well, instead of saying "Buff Marines!" so everyone can enjoy all aspects of their codex?

Do I really need to break this down?
9x lasguns has 18 shots in rapid fire range. 27 las guns = 3x18 infantry units has 54 base shots - double that (frfsrf) you get 108.

Martel732 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

If FRFSRF would just let you just reroll ones instead of doubling the firepower of your lasguns I'd buy that as an argument...

You're buffing a weaker gun with a worse BS. Again, Guard are better than Marines, no argument there, but why demand Guard be nerfed instead of buffing Marines?

Marines are unlikely to get buffs big enough to close the gap. That's why.

Rerolling hits and wounds of 1s as auras is a fairly big deal when you're BS/WS3+.
Being able to still perform a fight or shooting attack when you're slain(Ancients) in an aura is a fairly big deal.

Seriously, what do you think Marines need to "close the gap"? Mortal wounds on save rolls of 6+? Immunity to S3 or lower weapons?

Okay, you didn't say that you were assuming Rapid Fire range, and three squads of Infantry. Especially since, if they are within 12", add three shots for the pistols, for 111.

And, as a reminder, 111 shots are 55.5 hits, which is 18.5 wounds, which is just over 6 dead Marines.

180 points to kill 78 points of Marines, who closed to Rapid Fire range but didn't charge or anything.

Yeah, with two commanders you can do it.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where is everyone getting these hundreds of shots from? 1x 10 man squad has 9 lasguns, sgt has a pistol. so in Rapid fire range, that's 18 shots. with FRSSRF that is doubled, so 36 shots. Per 10 man squad. So you need 3x squads all firing to get 100 shots. There is no list in existence that wins with any major frequency that uses the 6x unaltered 10 man squads that is required to get 200 shots.

Finally, to get this Game breaking majesty, you have to expend all your orders on this, for the turn. Lets not spend any orders on Take Aim, or an extra Melee round for the bullgryns, or a extra advance order. No, the only thing used in mathhammer tourny is FRFSRF. This is extremely hard to pull off with any regularity, and it only happens with extremely stupid opponents that charge into 12" range of ALL 6 GUARD SQUADS.

The end of this arguement is this. The game was balanced around a very key idea. YOU AREN'T A COMPLETE MORON. I now know that GW balanced the game wrong, because you man babies are completely gak at this game. For emperors sake you keep arguing like AM players are running around with unaltered 10 man squads. No one does this. It's a crappy tactic that will lose you the game.

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, you didn't say that you were assuming Rapid Fire range, and three squads of Infantry. Especially since, if they are within 12", add three shots for the pistols, for 111.

And, as a reminder, 111 shots are 55.5 hits, which is 18.5 wounds, which is just over 6 dead Marines.

180 points to kill 78 points of Marines, who closed to Rapid Fire range but didn't charge or anything.

It's always interesting how often that kind of thing gets left out.

And I'd potentially give the Marines a further edge by saying they're Raven Guard, since at 12 inches or further they're at a -1 to be hit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Where is everyone getting these hundreds of shots from? 1x 10 man squad has 9 lasguns, sgt has a pistol. so in Rapid fire range, that's 18 shots. with FRSSRF that is doubled, so 36 shots. Per 10 man squad. So you need 3x squads all firing to get 100 shots. There is no list in existence that wins with any major frequency that uses the 6x unaltered 10 man squads that is required to get 200 shots.

Finally, to get this Game breaking majesty, you have to expend all your orders on this, for the turn. Lets not spend any orders on Take Aim, or an extra Melee round for the bullgryns, or a extra advance order. No, the only thing used in mathhammer tourny is FRFSRF. This is extremely hard to pull off with any regularity, and it only happens with extremely stupid opponents that charge into 12" range of ALL 6 GUARD SQUADS.

The end of this arguement is this. The game was balanced around a very key idea. YOU AREN'T A COMPLETE MORON. I now know that GW balanced the game wrong, because you man babies are completely gak at this game. For emperors sake you keep arguing like AM players are running around with unaltered 10 man squads. No one does this. It's a crappy tactic that will lose you the game.

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

I wish I played the Marine players that let me do that.

You aren't one, are you? Would you like a game?

 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

Rapid Fire range for Marines is the same as it is for Guard, unless the Guard player is using Vostroyans.

So why didn't the Marine player rapid fire first?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

Rapid Fire range for Marines is the same as it is for Guard, unless the Guard player is using Vostroyans.

So why didn't the Marine player rapid fire first?

To be fair, Armageddon Steel Legion also has a very long rapid fire range.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, you didn't say that you were assuming Rapid Fire range, and three squads of Infantry. Especially since, if they are within 12", add three shots for the pistols, for 111.

And, as a reminder, 111 shots are 55.5 hits, which is 18.5 wounds, which is just over 6 dead Marines.

180 points to kill 78 points of Marines, who closed to Rapid Fire range but didn't charge or anything.

182 pts of fire warriors kills 75 pts of marines in rapid fire.
Or 182 pts of tacts to kill 40 pts of marines.

This thread is so weird. Drowning the world in a sea of flashlights is pretty far down the “why Guardsmen are good” list.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

Rapid Fire range for Marines is the same as it is for Guard, unless the Guard player is using Vostroyans.

So why didn't the Marine player rapid fire first?

To be fair, Armageddon Steel Legion also has a very long rapid fire range.

Shows how often I run into Steel Legion that I always forget their 18" and vehicle buff!

Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Officers are cheap, not free, which was my point, yeah you'll usually have one buffing your squad, but its not like you don't pay for it.

They basically don't pay for it. They are basically free compared to other armies' HQ choices.

30 Points to buff two squads as compared to 75ish points to buff as many as you can squeeze within 6"? Seems like a fair tradeoff, especially considering the 75 point model shoots better with a better gun, fights better with a better melee weapon, and is tougher.

60 points to fill HQ requirements for a batallion and turn 54 shots into 108....it's absolutely insane man. Probably also twinlinking a mortar unit too.

The aura hq is still only 1 hq too. You have to bye another. So the end result is - you have a batallion that is super buffed and I have 2 hq's with nothing buff yet.

60 points gets you four orders. Just four. So you can only FRFSRF four squads, for 36 into 72 shots.

And Marines can buy a Lieutenant, which stacks just fine with a Captain/Chapter Master. Guard can get a Commisar, if they want... Which sucks.

Note: I'm not saying Marines are as good as guard. They aren't-but again, why say "Nerf Guard!" when guard are in a good place, especially in relation to being able to run different things and still perform well, instead of saying "Buff Marines!" so everyone can enjoy all aspects of their codex?

Because guard don't just outshoot Marines
They out shoot everyone Point for Point.
FW vrs IS IS wins
Tac Squad Vrs IS IS wins
Dire avenger Vrs IS IS wins

Don't forget that detachment limits are a thing as well. Those 180 points of Guardsmen that killed 6 marines? They're an entire Battalion, or a good chunk of a Brigade (180/560-odd points). In order to bring that many guardsmen, you've given up at least one detachment slot, and killed 6 space marines.

This is why I think the mythical Guard boogeyman doesn't actually show up in games; the actual practicality of the list when taken out of a vacuum isn't there. I agree Guard is strong, and I would like to see the CP regen nerfed into the ground so they stop getting souped with people just for that, but I'm not sure the "Guard behemoth that is unbeatable" is really actually true.

Dandelion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, you didn't say that you were assuming Rapid Fire range, and three squads of Infantry. Especially since, if they are within 12", add three shots for the pistols, for 111.

And, as a reminder, 111 shots are 55.5 hits, which is 18.5 wounds, which is just over 6 dead Marines.

180 points to kill 78 points of Marines, who closed to Rapid Fire range but didn't charge or anything.

182 pts of fire warriors kills 75 pts of marines in rapid fire.
Or 182 pts of tacts to kill 40 pts of marines.

That's an issue with those units and the conversion for some weapons from AP5 to the new system.

I'm not against Pulse Rifles(not Carbines!) and Bolters getting a buff, whether it be 6s cause MWs or something like that.

meleti wrote:
This thread is so weird. Drowning the world in a sea of flashlights is pretty far down the “why Guardsmen are good” list.

This is true. And even in this area they easily outperform most other armies, even though it is not their main strength.

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

Hard to say it's degrading the effectiveness of an order when the Order is effectively still 6+ free shots instead of 9. Poor you :(

So you're for having to choose which auras apply and making them more restrictive weapon-wise?

Cool! Great to hear!

Firing twice with 6 of those weapons in a 10 man squad is FAR better than rerolling 1's to hit with 6 dudes. Simple math.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

Hard to say it's degrading the effectiveness of an order when the Order is effectively still 6+ free shots instead of 9. Poor you :(

So you're for having to choose which auras apply and making them more restrictive weapon-wise?

Cool! Great to hear!

Firing twice with 6 of those weapons in a 10 man squad is FAR better than rerolling 1's to hit with 6 dudes. Simple math.

And having multiple squads of 5, hitting on 3+s and wounding on 4s usually, rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound is pretty good too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Think of it like this:
A Guard squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon + an officer isn't much more expensive than a Tactical Marine squad with a Plasma Gun.

And that Guard Squad with a Heavy and Special Weapon is degrading its effectiveness when given FRFSRF, a Tac Marine Squad with a Plasma Gun isn't degrading its effectiveness from a trait unless it is Imperial Fists.

Unless there's an aura I've missed explicitly affecting Boltguns?

Hard to say it's degrading the effectiveness of an order when the Order is effectively still 6+ free shots instead of 9. Poor you :(

So you're for having to choose which auras apply and making them more restrictive weapon-wise?

Cool! Great to hear!

Firing twice with 6 of those weapons in a 10 man squad is FAR better than rerolling 1's to hit with 6 dudes. Simple math.

Except the reroll 1s is an aura. You can use it to affect, in theory, 2,000 points. Now, obviously that's not a game-winning tactic, but you can pretty easily get 400-500 points affected by a 6" bubble.

Whereas orders (excepting Tank Orders, which only come from Tank Commanders) can only affect something like 100 points, top.