Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

meleti wrote:
This thread is so weird. Drowning the world in a sea of flashlights is pretty far down the “why Guardsmen are good” list.

Lasguns are easily the most buffed weapon in the entire game from the transition of 7 to 8.
1. It wounds T5 like T4 now
2. You can maybe even inflict 1 wounds on a vehicle
3. It doesn't care about having AP0, because most weapons became like this
4. Because Infantry became cheaper in the transition, you get even more shots compared to other units with basic weapons

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Imperium Soup, with Guard as part of it, is stomping around.

When was Boise? If I remember correctly, that was last year, which was several FAQs and whatnot ago. And wasn't that one won with an illegal list? Or am I thinking of a different tournament?

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Almost none of that is due to the damage dealing capabilities of basic Guardsmen, though. Which makes this current discussion hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Imperium Soup, with Guard as part of it, is stomping around.

When was Boise? If I remember correctly, that was last year, which was several FAQs and whatnot ago. And wasn't that one won with an illegal list? Or am I thinking of a different tournament?

Was last month. I think Brandon Grant won it with the Catachan brigade list and maybe some Knights.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You mean like - they failed a charge and now they get to get exterminated by 4 point models? Or they are trying to get into rapid fire range themselves...or the guard play is moving up with a horde of 60 units while 9+ big gun units are raining fire?

Rapid Fire range for Marines is the same as it is for Guard, unless the Guard player is using Vostroyans.

So why didn't the Marine player rapid fire first?

Rapid fire range is totally attainable im saying. It's especially attainable when the opponent is coming at you and trying to charge you. Gaurd players don't typically move until it's to get into rapid fire range.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Imperium Soup, with Guard as part of it, is stomping around.

When was Boise? If I remember correctly, that was last year, which was several FAQs and whatnot ago. And wasn't that one won with an illegal list? Or am I thinking of a different tournament?

What unit can go up against equal points of Infantry squads and win? What units can go up againy equal points of Infantry squads plus Commanders and win?

meleti wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Almost none of that is due to the damage dealing capabilities of basic Guardsmen, though. Which makes this current discussion hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Imperium Soup, with Guard as part of it, is stomping around.

When was Boise? If I remember correctly, that was last year, which was several FAQs and whatnot ago. And wasn't that one won with an illegal list? Or am I thinking of a different tournament?

Was last month. I think Brandon Grant won it with the Catachan brigade list and maybe some Knights.

Where do you come up with that nonsense though? It's already been mathematically proven countless times that Infantry are very efficient shooters...Catachan infantry have 2 str 4 attacks around straken....like...you do realize that is better than an ork shoota boy...LOL.

Really? Because 2 S4 attacks hitting on a 4+ are worse than 2 S4 attacks hitting on a 3+.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

Marmatag, I think earlier in the thread I asked you if you actually had access to the lists in question and if I could see them.

I've heard conflicting reports, even between things like FLG and BCP, about what lists had what in them. I'd be curious to see that data if you managed to save it.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Really? Because 2 S4 attacks hitting on a 4+ are worse than 2 S4 attacks hitting on a 3+.

Points bro...points.

Not to mention they can fight twice with an order.

We use ITC rules in casual play, but not the missions with "reaper".

I'm satisfied now that 5 ppm guardsmen are where they should be. The math against fire warriors really impressed me and as a guard player I am convinced now.

However, I still stand by my assertion that 5ppm guardsmen would hurt guard a LOT, unless a lot of other changes are made to the game first. Namely price increases for kabalites, rangers and other units that would be flat out superior to 5ppm guardsmen, and nerfs for neophytes, which are guardsmen +1L for the same price point. To all of the people saying a 1ppm increase isn't much, it absolutely is, it is a 25% increase in infantry price. It would increase my 2000 pt army almost 100 pts and I don't even play infantry-heavy guard, Infantry-heavy guard lists are looking at possibly as high as 250 pt increases.

If someone on the opposite side could make a reasoned response to my second paragraph instead of snarking at me I would appreciate it.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget that detachment limits are a thing as well. Those 180 points of Guardsmen that killed 6 marines? They're an entire Battalion, or a good chunk of a Brigade (180/560-odd points). In order to bring that many guardsmen, you've given up at least one detachment slot, and killed 6 space marines.

This is why I think the mythical Guard boogeyman doesn't actually show up in games; the actual practicality of the list when taken out of a vacuum isn't there. I agree Guard is strong, and I would like to see the CP regen nerfed into the ground so they stop getting souped with people just for that, but I'm not sure the "Guard behemoth that is unbeatable" is really actually true.

Are you seriously complaining that you can't bring more infantry? That is what it sounds like.

Gaurd CP gen is not the problem. I can get the exact same thing by Bringing Gman. With any imperial army. 3 auto command points (equal to 9 stratagems played by aquila) and the exact same regen trait. Heck - I even get a super beast in the process. Know what I am not getting? 30 models that take up space and put out 108 shots a turn to clear chaff (one of the most important things in the game) for less than half the cost.

You never hear anyone complaining about GMan generating command points? Why? Mostly because he is overcosted. The issues is cost.

w1zard wrote:
I'm satisfied now that 5 ppm guardsmen are where they should be. The math against fire warriors really impressed me and as a guard player I am convinced now.

However, I still stand by my assertion that 5ppm guardsmen would hurt guard a LOT, unless a lot of other changes are made to the game first. Namely price increases for kabalites, rangers and other units that would be flat out superior to 5ppm guardsmen, and nerfs for neophytes, which are guardsmen +1L for the same price point. To all of the people saying a 1ppm increase isn't much, it absolutely is, it is a 25% increase in infantry price. It would increase my 2000 pt army almost 100 pts and I don't even play infantry-heavy guard, Infantry-heavy guard lists are looking at possibly as high as 250 pt increases.

If someone on the opposite side could make a reasoned response to my second paragraph instead of snarking at me I would appreciate it.

The reasoned response will probably be "sure but we're not talking about kabalites, and rangers, and other units like neophytes."

And then never mention them again once they have completed their vendetta against IG.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget that detachment limits are a thing as well. Those 180 points of Guardsmen that killed 6 marines? They're an entire Battalion, or a good chunk of a Brigade (180/560-odd points). In order to bring that many guardsmen, you've given up at least one detachment slot, and killed 6 space marines.

This is why I think the mythical Guard boogeyman doesn't actually show up in games; the actual practicality of the list when taken out of a vacuum isn't there. I agree Guard is strong, and I would like to see the CP regen nerfed into the ground so they stop getting souped with people just for that, but I'm not sure the "Guard behemoth that is unbeatable" is really actually true.

Are you seriously complaining that you can't bring more infantry? That is what it sounds like.

Gaurd CP gen is not the problem. I can get the exact same thing by Bringing Gman. With any imperial army. 3 auto command points (equal to 9 stratagems played by aquila) and the exact same regen trait. Heck - I even get a super beast in the process. Know what I am not getting? 30 models that take up space and put out 108 shots a turn to clear chaff (one of the most important things in the game).

You never hear anyone complaining about GMan generating command points? Why? Mostly because he is overcosted. The issues is cost.

Isn't GMan 5+ per strat you spend, not 5+ per CP spent and 5+ per start your enemy spends?

And doesn't he, you know, give full rerolls to hit and wound for nearby Ultramarines? If Marines were better costed, he'd be insane.

Edit: And if the CP isn't the issue, why do the 4 of the top 5 lists that include Guard include them for CP regen purposes?

 Xenomancers wrote:

meleti wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Almost none of that is due to the damage dealing capabilities of basic Guardsmen, though. Which makes this current discussion hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Guard are stomping people, they were better represented at BAO in the top 10 by a wide margin. They are winning GTs now as mono-guard. (Boise comes to mind, a recent GT taken by mono-guard). They are also winning competitive RTTs.

Here's your reply: "This is fake news that never happened, bigly sad."

Imperium Soup, with Guard as part of it, is stomping around.

When was Boise? If I remember correctly, that was last year, which was several FAQs and whatnot ago. And wasn't that one won with an illegal list? Or am I thinking of a different tournament?

Was last month. I think Brandon Grant won it with the Catachan brigade list and maybe some Knights.

Where do you come up with that nonsense though? It's already been mathematically proven countless times that Infantry are very efficient shooters...Catachan infantry have 2 str 4 attacks around straken....like...you do realize that is better than an ork shoota boy...LOL.

I think you’re getting lost in the math. Catachan guardsmen are great at killing T3 chaff in melee, especially with a ministorum priest. They aren’t actually much of a damage dealing element in those lists outside of that scenario, though. Guardsmen are there for board control, screening, back line duty, and CP generation. There’s much more killy units in Imperium lists that handle the actual workload of destroying more units.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I'm satisfied now that 5 ppm guardsmen are where they should be. The math against fire warriors really impressed me and as a guard player I am convinced now.

However, I still stand by my assertion that 5ppm guardsmen would hurt guard a LOT, unless a lot of other changes are made to the game first. Namely price increases for kabalites, rangers and other units that would be flat out superior to 5ppm guardsmen, and nerfs for neophytes, which are guardsmen +1L for the same price point. To all of the people saying a 1ppm increase isn't much, it absolutely is, it is a 25% increase in infantry price. It would increase my 2000 pt army almost 100 pts and I don't even play infantry-heavy guard, Infantry-heavy guard lists are looking at possibly as high as 250 pt increases.

If someone on the opposite side could make a reasoned response to my second paragraph instead of snarking at me I would appreciate it.

The reasoned response will probably be "sure but we're not talking about kabalites, and rangers, and other units like neophytes."

And then never mention them again once they have completed their vendetta against IG.

Please quit playing martyr. We didn't buy it for Eldar players in 6th/7th and we don't buy what you're doing now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget that detachment limits are a thing as well. Those 180 points of Guardsmen that killed 6 marines? They're an entire Battalion, or a good chunk of a Brigade (180/560-odd points). In order to bring that many guardsmen, you've given up at least one detachment slot, and killed 6 space marines.

This is why I think the mythical Guard boogeyman doesn't actually show up in games; the actual practicality of the list when taken out of a vacuum isn't there. I agree Guard is strong, and I would like to see the CP regen nerfed into the ground so they stop getting souped with people just for that, but I'm not sure the "Guard behemoth that is unbeatable" is really actually true.

Are you seriously complaining that you can't bring more infantry? That is what it sounds like.

Gaurd CP gen is not the problem. I can get the exact same thing by Bringing Gman. With any imperial army. 3 auto command points (equal to 9 stratagems played by aquila) and the exact same regen trait. Heck - I even get a super beast in the process. Know what I am not getting? 30 models that take up space and put out 108 shots a turn to clear chaff (one of the most important things in the game).

You never hear anyone complaining about GMan generating command points? Why? Mostly because he is overcosted. The issues is cost.

I usually bring 30 guardsmen and 2 commanders to my games and I am also not getting 108 shots to clear chaff, because the games where my opponent obligingly wanders into rapid-fire range of all 3 squads while doing 0 damage have never actually happened.

You live in a fantasy land.

You are also continuing to peddle misinformation, as the Gman gives only 3 points for 440, not 5, and the regen trait is Per Stratagem for ultramarines, not Per Command Point Spent. The Imperial Guard detachment gives 5 CP (Battalion) plus the regen. Gman gives 3 CP (not a Battalion) plus shittier regen and no Aquila at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I'm satisfied now that 5 ppm guardsmen are where they should be. The math against fire warriors really impressed me and as a guard player I am convinced now.

However, I still stand by my assertion that 5ppm guardsmen would hurt guard a LOT, unless a lot of other changes are made to the game first. Namely price increases for kabalites, rangers and other units that would be flat out superior to 5ppm guardsmen, and nerfs for neophytes, which are guardsmen +1L for the same price point. To all of the people saying a 1ppm increase isn't much, it absolutely is, it is a 25% increase in infantry price. It would increase my 2000 pt army almost 100 pts and I don't even play infantry-heavy guard, Infantry-heavy guard lists are looking at possibly as high as 250 pt increases.

If someone on the opposite side could make a reasoned response to my second paragraph instead of snarking at me I would appreciate it.

The reasoned response will probably be "sure but we're not talking about kabalites, and rangers, and other units like neophytes."

And then never mention them again once they have completed their vendetta against IG.

Please quit playing martyr. We didn't buy it for Eldar players in 6th/7th and we don't buy what you're doing now.

Demonstrate unequivocally and without misinformation that Mono-Guard in 8th is as bad as Mono-Eldar in 6th/7th. I'll wait.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

My proposals would increase the cost of the batery by 50 points. 5 point gaurdsmen with 40 point commanders. IMO this is quite generous. The CC quite lierally generates 36 str 3 shots on his own. That is worth well more than 40 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

Are you really arguing people wouldn't bring in Guard as 180 points for +5CP without the Relics? You're pretty shortsighted aren't ya?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

My proposals would increase the cost of the batery by 50 points. 5 point gaurdsmen with 40 point commanders. IMO this is quite generous. The CC quite lierally generates 36 str 3 shots on his own. That is worth well more than 40 points.

That's still not much. And why aren't you talking about nerfing Slamginuis, or Knights, or Custodes? They're all in the top lists-hell, Knights were ALSO in 4/5 top lists, including number 1!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Don't forget that detachment limits are a thing as well. Those 180 points of Guardsmen that killed 6 marines? They're an entire Battalion, or a good chunk of a Brigade (180/560-odd points). In order to bring that many guardsmen, you've given up at least one detachment slot, and killed 6 space marines.

This is why I think the mythical Guard boogeyman doesn't actually show up in games; the actual practicality of the list when taken out of a vacuum isn't there. I agree Guard is strong, and I would like to see the CP regen nerfed into the ground so they stop getting souped with people just for that, but I'm not sure the "Guard behemoth that is unbeatable" is really actually true.

Are you seriously complaining that you can't bring more infantry? That is what it sounds like.

Gaurd CP gen is not the problem. I can get the exact same thing by Bringing Gman. With any imperial army. 3 auto command points (equal to 9 stratagems played by aquila) and the exact same regen trait. Heck - I even get a super beast in the process. Know what I am not getting? 30 models that take up space and put out 108 shots a turn to clear chaff (one of the most important things in the game).

You never hear anyone complaining about GMan generating command points? Why? Mostly because he is overcosted. The issues is cost.

I usually bring 30 guardsmen and 2 commanders to my games and I am also not getting 108 shots to clear chaff, because the games where my opponent obligingly wanders into rapid-fire range of all 3 squads while doing 0 damage have never actually happened.

You live in a fantasy land.

You are also continuing to peddle misinformation, as the Gman gives only 3 points for 440, not 5, and the regen trait is Per Stratagem for ultramarines, not Per Command Point Spent. The Imperial Guard detachment gives 5 CP (Battalion) plus the regen. Gman gives 3 CP (not a Battalion) plus shittier regen and no Aquila at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

w1zard wrote:
I'm satisfied now that 5 ppm guardsmen are where they should be. The math against fire warriors really impressed me and as a guard player I am convinced now.

However, I still stand by my assertion that 5ppm guardsmen would hurt guard a LOT, unless a lot of other changes are made to the game first. Namely price increases for kabalites, rangers and other units that would be flat out superior to 5ppm guardsmen, and nerfs for neophytes, which are guardsmen +1L for the same price point. To all of the people saying a 1ppm increase isn't much, it absolutely is, it is a 25% increase in infantry price. It would increase my 2000 pt army almost 100 pts and I don't even play infantry-heavy guard, Infantry-heavy guard lists are looking at possibly as high as 250 pt increases.

If someone on the opposite side could make a reasoned response to my second paragraph instead of snarking at me I would appreciate it.

The reasoned response will probably be "sure but we're not talking about kabalites, and rangers, and other units like neophytes."

And then never mention them again once they have completed their vendetta against IG.

Please quit playing martyr. We didn't buy it for Eldar players in 6th/7th and we don't buy what you're doing now.

Demonstrate unequivocally and without misinformation that Mono-Guard in 8th is as bad as Mono-Eldar in 6th/7th. I'll wait.

Im not spreading mis information. I'm talking about regeneration ability. Not the base CP you get.

You can take Capt Slam out of the game as far as I'm concerned. It's a dumb concept, and gives the illusion that BA are useful. They aren't.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Im not spreading mis information. I'm talking about regeneration ability. Not the base CP you get.

Which you are misinformed about (or worse, are misinforming others about), because the Guard regen ability is better than Gmans and is why it desperately needs nerfing.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Why does it matter how many marines it kills?

Your chaff is cheaper than mine and way stronger, it is:

1. Stronger on offense (range, strength, accuracy)
2. Stronger on defense (5+ save vs 6+ save)
3. Cheaper
4. Immune to Reaper (my squads give my opponent 1 point, yours give 0)
5. Able to receive orders. Shooting twice costs me 2CP, it costs you an order.

Explain to me how this is fair, thanks.

Tiny wall of guardsmen WILL be in rapid fire range at some point because Tyranids rely on assault and close range.

Range, yes. Strength, no-aren't Fleshborers S4? Accuracy, no, they both hit on a 4+.
Defense, yes... Until you run into morale, which Nids can easily be immune to and Guardsmen are not.
Cheaper... Are Termagants 5 Points? If they are, they can definitely go down to 4. If they're 4... They're the same price.
Reaper only matters if you play ITC.
And Teramagants can receive a -1 to hit, cover in the open, Synapse...

Hormagants are S3 and cost 5 points.

Termagants do have S4 guns, at 12" range. Guardsmen HANDILY win this fight... and Termagants are rarely in range of anything. They're there to die, and Guardsmen do that better.

Reaper only matters if you play ITC... what a BS comment.

"No one plays ITC, it's fake news" -Guard players

I didn't say no one plays ITC, I said Reaper only matters if you play ITC. For me, personally, I do not play ITC.

And in tournaments... Guard are not stomping around. They're good, they're competitive, but they aren't OP.

For casual play, one could argue Guard are too good. (I'd argue that other stuff could stand to be buffed.) But casual play isn't ITC, and doesn't feature Reaper.

I think I understand where you are coming from now.

Here is the truth - if you are consistantly showing up in the top 10 at events. Chances are every single unit in your list is OP.

So why is everyone talking about just guard and not BA or Knights or Custodes?

Because, let's see, what appeared in the top lists...

We've got Daemon Princes, Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawn, Plagueburst Crawlers, Helverins and dual-Gatling Knights.
We've got Company Commander and Infantry squads, pretty much solely to provide CP for a Castellan, a Crusader, and two Gallants.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Slamginiusi and a Castellan.
We've got more Guard providing CP for Custodes and a Culexus for fun.
And we've got more CP Batteries providing Blood Angels and Knights.

Lists found here.

Which, yeah, I totally agree that slotting in a Battalion of 32 Guardsmen for 5 CP, 5+ regen on your CP and 5+ regen on your opponent's strats is bonkers good.

But without Kurov's Aquila and Grand Strategist... They're not. And this proposal-increasing the CP battery's cost by 30 points-would require barely any changes to the existing lists.
If you want to talk about nerfing the CP Battery or Soup, that's fine! Those show up in 4 of the top 5 lists.

But Guardsmen make up about 10% of each of those lists. Not very much.

My proposals would increase the cost of the batery by 50 points. 5 point gaurdsmen with 40 point commanders. IMO this is quite generous. The CC quite lierally generates 36 str 3 shots on his own. That is worth well more than 40 points.

That's still not much. And why aren't you talking about nerfing Slamginuis, or Knights, or Custodes? They're all in the top lists-hell, Knights were ALSO in 4/5 top lists, including number 1!

That is another discussion. Knights are OP - I play them. Castellan is at least 100 points under. Bringing knights back to life shouldn't happen. Plauge crawlers are a 180 point tank you get for 140. There are a lot of busted things in this game. I don't only pick on gaurd. Eldar Crimson hunters - DE ravagers and void ravens? These are all things that are at least 30 points undercosted.

Then where are the threads about them?