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Bharring wrote:
Marmatag,
Gaunts are not 4/5ppm with synapse. They're 4/5ppm unbuffed. Instinctive Behavior is part of costing them.

Also, Synapse works quite different from Orders in that it's an always-on aura. So you're not limited to how many Gaunts an individual HQ protects.

I agree that it's a valid comparison.

Jcd,
I think his point is that the *other side of the table* would have a problem with that.

Right, then we agree, Guardsmen are brutally undercosted relative to Tyranid troops.

Synapse isn't a buff, it's a requirement to function.

Bharring wrote:
Which makes IG with FRFSRF... roughly 5ppm!

Now, I think that's too low. Clearly, Xeno agrees. But it's easier to talk about it either that way, or talk about IG as 4ppm without FRFSRF.

5.5 points per model, for the first six. More expensive after, due to the rule of three.

"the space marine can not fire his bolter twice for any reason "
No, but Gman can double the firepower of the bolter. Same number of shots, but twice the impact. Aura ability, not restricted to the grunts, does not preempt Gmans other impacts, but also costs a trucklode. And Gman makes SM really, really hard to balance fairly. Coincidence?

"The ultra marine has to be charged to even make use of his trait"
An IG needs to be charged to make use of 'get back in there'!

"- then he has to suffer a penalty to shoot if he uses it"
Then is penalized by not getting FRFSRF, which is an even bigger hit

"A catachan army can get reroll 1's with a freaking 50 point elite character"
Because a 60pt LT is so much more expensive!

Suddenly, UM seem awfully like IG!
But IG are 4ppm, Tacs are 13ppm - maybe that's a more interesting place to persue the problem?

"HOLY CRAP. They are shoot twice and rerolling 1's? This army sucks. "
I think this is a comprehension problem. Most of the people you're arguing with are *NOT* saying IG suck. They're arguing your specific claims. If you'd clean up your claims a bit, you may find more agreement in the community than you do just spouting off.

You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

Guilliman lists are flatly inferior to imperial guard lists. This is nothing new. They require first turn to be competitive.

 Marmatag wrote:
You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

Sure, and Cadians don't have access to Harker.
Catachans don't have access to Creed or Kell.


His "credibility" is no more impugned by the idea of Guilliman being present than yours is for assuming Cadians won't move. Certain styles of list will basically be guaranteed to have it that way.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

Sure, and Cadians don't have access to Harker.
Catachans don't have access to Creed or Kell.


His "credibility" is no more impugned by the idea of Guilliman being present than yours is for assuming Cadians won't move. Certain styles of list will basically be guaranteed to have it that way.

You're not seriously suggesting that Cadians actually need Creed to function though right?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

His "credibility" is no more impugned by the idea of Guilliman being present than yours is for assuming Cadians won't move. Certain styles of list will basically be guaranteed to have it that way.

Emphasis.

I'm not assuming Gman. I'm drawing parallels to Gman, to show how the same effect played out in a weaker army. Look at what Gman does to discussions of Marines, then take another pass on what Officer orders do to discussions of IG. There are some major differences, but also some major parallels.

Bottom line tends to be:
"Any Marine units need to be balanced around Gman possibly being in the list" vs "Marine units need to be balanced in absence of Gman".
Both sides make *very* good points. Without agreeing or disagreeing with either (here), does this not suggest that IG are not the only faction where comparing their units gets harder because of the presence, or lack of, buffing units? Can we really say only IG is a problem because only they can double the firepower of their units when SM can do that too?

So perhaps the interesting points, the things worth discussing, are more nuanced than that? Perhaps if we looked at the issue more carefully and more accurately, we might get a better picture?

Because the claim that only IG can double their firepower, therefore they're OP is busted because both (1) IG isn't the only faction that can do it, and (2) another faction that can do it certainly isn't OP right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

Sure, and Cadians don't have access to Harker.
Catachans don't have access to Creed or Kell.


His "credibility" is no more impugned by the idea of Guilliman being present than yours is for assuming Cadians won't move. Certain styles of list will basically be guaranteed to have it that way.

You're not seriously suggesting that Cadians actually need Creed to function though right?

Of course not, but he's just listing off factions and not mentioning anything about them simply because they can't take Guilliman.

Dark Angels don't get Guilliman, but they do have their own stable of characters. Same with BA and Wolves. Grey Knights could use some work there, and the rest could use at least two characters in their stables.

I'm not even clear what you guys are arguing. Are you suggesting that buffs applied to IG can't be overpowered because similar buffs are also applied elsewhere? Because that's a pitiful argument and will fall apart rather quickly.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
You lose any credibility when you start assuming Guilliman. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, Imperial Fists, White Scars, Iron Hands, Raven Guard, etc do not have access to Guilliman.

Sure, and Cadians don't have access to Harker.
Catachans don't have access to Creed or Kell.


His "credibility" is no more impugned by the idea of Guilliman being present than yours is for assuming Cadians won't move. Certain styles of list will basically be guaranteed to have it that way.

You're not seriously suggesting that Cadians actually need Creed to function though right?

Of course not, but he's just listing off factions and not mentioning anything about them simply because they can't take Guilliman.

Dark Angels don't get Guilliman, but they do have their own stable of characters. Same with BA and Wolves. Grey Knights could use some work there, and the rest could use at least two characters in their stables.

Difference here is that Infantry aren't priced like they always have an Officer to give orders. Instead they're priced cheap enough to do that. Marines are instead universally priced like they all have access to Roboute, which isn't a generic character.

That's what the poster was trying to say. Makes sense?

Mamatag,
What I'm arguing is that a buff that doubles firepower does not necessarily make a faction OP.

It might help you actually trace my logic and see how I tried to show that.

I was arguing against a specific point. I clearly think IG are OP. I think I've been direct about that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer,
Then the poster should have said that. Like I did, upthread.

Instead, the poster argued that UM don't show that a faction isn't OP just because it has an option because non-UM don't have said option. Which doesn't make much sense.

Bharring wrote:
Mamatag,
What I'm arguing is that a buff that doubles firepower does not necessarily make a faction OP.

No, but it is a balancing nightmare.

Which is another aspect of what I was trying to show. Remember all those Big G discussions? "Fun" times...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Difference here is that Infantry aren't priced like they always have an Officer to give orders. Instead they're priced cheap enough to do that. Marines are instead universally priced like they all have access to Roboute, which isn't a generic character.

That's what the poster was trying to say. Makes sense?

It's possible that I'm letting past discussions and clashes with the poster color my reading of the matter, but I definitely didn't get that from my read. I got the impression instead that "Guilliman isn't everywhere, so Marines can't be powerful".

Bharring wrote:
Mamatag,
What I'm arguing is that a buff that doubles firepower does not necessarily make a faction OP.

It might help you actually trace my logic and see how I tried to show that.

I was arguing against a specific point. I clearly think IG are OP. I think I've been direct about that.

Okay, then we agree.

I don't agree with the others, though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Difference here is that Infantry aren't priced like they always have an Officer to give orders. Instead they're priced cheap enough to do that. Marines are instead universally priced like they all have access to Roboute, which isn't a generic character.

That's what the poster was trying to say. Makes sense?

It's possible that I'm letting past discussions and clashes with the poster color my reading of the matter, but I definitely didn't get that from my read. I got the impression instead that "Guilliman isn't everywhere, so Marines can't be powerful".

You shouldn't even be talking about Guilliman anyway. It's irrelevant. IG are overpowered regardless of whatever nonsense is happening in Codex: Space Marines. Until my Tyranids can take Guilliman as a lord of war, and get the radial buff applied to my hive guards, i don't even care about it.

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Mamatag,
What I'm arguing is that a buff that doubles firepower does not necessarily make a faction OP.

No, but it is a balancing nightmare.

It really isn't.

It affects one type of gun and can be applied to 4 units in total.
-Scions(Hotshot Lasguns)
-Veterans(Lasguns)
-Conscripts(Lasguns)
-Infantry Squad(Lasguns)

The only reason we don't see a huge hubbub made about Scions getting it is that they're usually given other Orders or are taken as kamikaze squads so the number of Hotshots is exceedingly rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Difference here is that Infantry aren't priced like they always have an Officer to give orders. Instead they're priced cheap enough to do that. Marines are instead universally priced like they all have access to Roboute, which isn't a generic character.

That's what the poster was trying to say. Makes sense?

It's possible that I'm letting past discussions and clashes with the poster color my reading of the matter, but I definitely didn't get that from my read. I got the impression instead that "Guilliman isn't everywhere, so Marines can't be powerful".

You shouldn't even be talking about Guilliman anyway. It's irrelevant. IG are overpowered regardless of whatever nonsense is happening in Codex: Space Marines. Until my Tyranids can take Guilliman as a lord of war, and get the radial buff applied to my hive guards, i don't even care about it.

He produced Guilliman as an example of "doubling firepower". We could go for the Cadre Fireblade example instead if you want, but the point is there are other armies out there with aura buffs that do the same thing as FRFSRF yet nobody whines about them.

You've picked Guard as the "No more!" line for whatever reason.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Mamatag,
What I'm arguing is that a buff that doubles firepower does not necessarily make a faction OP.

No, but it is a balancing nightmare.

It really isn't.

It affects one type of gun and can be applied to 4 units in total.
-Scions(Hotshot Lasguns)
-Veterans(Lasguns)
-Conscripts(Lasguns)
-Infantry Squad(Lasguns)

The only reason we don't see a huge hubbub made about Scions getting it is that they're usually given other Orders or are taken as kamikaze squads so the number of Hotshots is exceedingly rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Difference here is that Infantry aren't priced like they always have an Officer to give orders. Instead they're priced cheap enough to do that. Marines are instead universally priced like they all have access to Roboute, which isn't a generic character.

That's what the poster was trying to say. Makes sense?

It's possible that I'm letting past discussions and clashes with the poster color my reading of the matter, but I definitely didn't get that from my read. I got the impression instead that "Guilliman isn't everywhere, so Marines can't be powerful".

You shouldn't even be talking about Guilliman anyway. It's irrelevant. IG are overpowered regardless of whatever nonsense is happening in Codex: Space Marines. Until my Tyranids can take Guilliman as a lord of war, and get the radial buff applied to my hive guards, i don't even care about it.

He produced Guilliman as an example of "doubling firepower". We could go for the Cadre Fireblade example instead if you want, but the point is there are other armies out there with aura buffs that do the same thing as FRFSRF yet nobody whines about them.

You've picked Guard as the "No more!" line for whatever reason.

Ha ha your saying a Cadre Fireblade is the same as FRFSRF.
It's one additional shot at half range vrs Rapid fire 2 thats not an equivalent buff.

But continue with you neither A Cadre fireblade or Gman alloq for double shooting.

Ice_can wrote:

Ha ha your saying a Cadre Fireblade is the same as FRFSRF.
It's one additional shot at half range vrs Rapid fire 2 thats not an equivalent buff.

Cheap HQ(39 pts--strange number but c'est la vie) that grants a buff to the basic weapon of an army with a conditional application seems fairly equivalent to me.

You're not wrong about it being unequivalent though, as the weapons are able to be RFing at 15" rather than 12", and the Fireblade can join in or grant +1 to hit via his Markerlight(not to mention any Drones he might have).

But continue with you neither A Cadre fireblade or Gman alloq for double shooting.

And you continue with pretending that Officers are the big bugbears of the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Ha ha your saying a Cadre Fireblade is the same as FRFSRF.
It's one additional shot at half range vrs Rapid fire 2 thats not an equivalent buff.

Cheap HQ(39 pts--strange number but c'est la vie) that grants a buff to the basic weapon of an army with a conditional application seems fairly equivalent to me.

You're not wrong about it being unequivalent though, as the weapons are able to be RFing at 15" rather than 12", and the Fireblade can join in or grant +1 to hit via his Markerlight(not to mention any Drones he might have).

But continue with you neither A Cadre fireblade or Gman alloq for double shooting.

And you continue with pretending that Officers are the big bugbears of the game.

Try 42 as markerlights arn't free. Neither are drones
Guard at 4ppm arn't balanced.

Officers with Kurovs and grand strategist arr broke as feth but again it was guard players who keep pointing to CP as the issue with 4ppm guardsmen not the fact that they are more durable and more offensive per point than everyone else's infantry.

Ice_can wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

Ha ha your saying a Cadre Fireblade is the same as FRFSRF.
It's one additional shot at half range vrs Rapid fire 2 thats not an equivalent buff.

Cheap HQ(39 pts--strange number but c'est la vie) that grants a buff to the basic weapon of an army with a conditional application seems fairly equivalent to me.

You're not wrong about it being unequivalent though, as the weapons are able to be RFing at 15" rather than 12", and the Fireblade can join in or grant +1 to hit via his Markerlight(not to mention any Drones he might have).

But continue with you neither A Cadre fireblade or Gman alloq for double shooting.

And you continue with pretending that Officers are the big bugbears of the game.

Try 42 as markerlights arn't free. Neither are drones

Fine, he pays for them--but so do Guard for Vox-Casters to improve the range of Orders. You'll also notice that the Drones aren't assumed to be there(that's what "not to mention any Drones he might have" means), but rather are mentioned as another item he might have with him.

Guard at 4ppm arn't balanced.

Officers with Kurovs and grand strategist arr broke as feth but again it was guard players who keep pointing to CP as the issue with 4ppm guardsmen not the fact that they are more durable and more offensive per point than everyone else's infantry.

And nobody is fricking denying those two things, but again the bigger issue is people are taking those things specifically to game the CP system. Removing the ability for HQs to be taken as Allies would go a long way towards fixing that complaint, or alternatively removing the ability for Allies to bring Relics or Warlord Traits to the table.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And nobody is fricking denying those two things, but again the bigger issue is people are taking those things specifically to game the CP system. Removing the ability for HQs to be taken as Allies would go a long way towards fixing that complaint, or alternatively removing the ability for Allies to bring Relics or Warlord Traits to the table.

No. That CP regen is just broken in mono guard too. It is just wrong, it needs to be gone. The end.

Okay. What does removing the CP Regen have to do with increasing a basic Guardsmen's cost by 25%?

Because I'd be totally fine with removing Kurov's entirely, and replacing Grand Strategist with either 5+ to regain per strat you spend, or something else entirely.

"But continue with you neither A Cadre fireblade or Gman alloq for double shooting." Nor do Officers. Basically you get +90%.

Cadre Fireblade, sure, it's only a +50% firepower conditionally.

Big G:
Best case is hitting on 6s wounding on 6s, actually. +5/6 hits/shot, +5/6 wounds/hit, compounded. +*236*% firepower.

Consider hitting on 4s, wounding on 4s. You get 50% more shots. If you wound on 4s, you get a (compounded) 50% more wounds. For a 125% increase in firepower.

More likely, you're hitting on 3s wounding on 4s, so it's +1/3 * +1/2, which works out to exactly +100% firepower.

So you're correct, neither Cadre Fireblade nor Gman are exactly 100%. Fireblade is only 50%. Gman ranges from +236% to +36%, depending (hitting on 6s and hitting on 2s, respectively). With most cases being +100% or better.

Further, we shouldn't be this technical. If we did, we'd need to point out that FRFSRF is *not* +100% firepower. It's only +90%. And only on the stock weapon. So lets not get too hung up on specifics.

At any rate, the point is that Gman has an equal or better (much better) buff than FRFSRF. So to claim that having a buff as powerful as FRFSRF (which is very powerful) means an army is OP would require UltraMarines to be OP. I would argue that they are not, thus the claim is incorrect.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. What does removing the CP Regen have to do with increasing a basic Guardsmen's cost by 25%?

Because I'd be totally fine with removing Kurov's entirely, and replacing Grand Strategist with either 5+ to regain per strat you spend, or something else entirely.

Guard need quite a few nerfs. Guardsmen going up in price is just one example of many.

Guilliman is extremely powerful and Ultramarines players pay for that extreme power, to the tune of 400 points. He’s far superior to either an order or a Cadre Fireblade but he isn’t costed like a cheap HQ either.

Guilliman Ultramarines armies are a fringe faction, arguably even more fringe than Tau are. Not a top tier competitive faction like Guard and allied Guard.

(And no, orders obviously aren’t the sole reason that Guard are top tier)

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

And nobody is fricking denying those two things, but again the bigger issue is people are taking those things specifically to game the CP system. Removing the ability for HQs to be taken as Allies would go a long way towards fixing that complaint, or alternatively removing the ability for Allies to bring Relics or Warlord Traits to the table.

No. That CP regen is just broken in mono guard too. It is just wrong, it needs to be gone. The end.

That CP regen is a bit questionable in mono Guard, if we're going to be honest. How many times are you going to use the Vortex Missile Stratagem? Consolidate Squads?

I'm perfectly fine with toning it down significantly though. Hell, I'm perfectly fine with tearing the book down and rebuilding everything. I've thrown ideas out for Orders and Officers to get radically shifted but they always get dumped on.

Which would you rather have:
Specific levels of officers(Senior, Junior, and Sergeants) where each one grants a specific style of buff in the vein of the Protocols on the Kastelan Robots(Perk+Downside)...or the system we have now?

Cause I'd rather have the former than the latter, where each 'level' of Officer(Seniors as HQs, Juniors as Elites, Sergeants only applying to their squads) brings something unique and interesting to the army but once they're dead they lose access to that buff.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Which would you rather have:
Specific levels of officers(Senior, Junior, and Sergeants) where each one grants a specific style of buff in the vein of the Protocols on the Kastelan Robots(Perk+Downside)...or the system we have now?

Cause I'd rather have the former than the latter, where each 'level' of Officer(Seniors as HQs, Juniors as Elites, Sergeants only applying to their squads) brings something unique and interesting to the army but once they're dead they lose access to that buff.

I think the basis of the current command system is good (if not all of the commands.) It is way more interesting than the Marine system, where one guy just buffs everything around him. I rather wish marines had a command system too, instead of auras. Also, a system where there is a limit on how many and what sort of units one character can buff is much easier to balance. Guilliman is ludicrously overcosted if he is buffing couple of tactical squads, but park a maniple of Leviathan Dreadnoughts around him and he becomes magnitudes more powerful.

Tyel wrote:
I don't think Tau Commanders got limited because they were too good. I don't seem to remember them winning tournaments left and right, or even being that upsetting compared to certain other things.

They got nerfed because GW decided they didn't want people building Tau armies around commander spam. They would eventually try and stop spam more generally with the rule of 3.

Tau commanders were and still are too good.
- Sincerely a tau player

But seriously consider this, Tau commanders and gun drones were by far the best units in the tau index and both got nerfed. Now look at the Tau, they're better off now than they were before. The codex gave some needed internal balance and made more units worth taking.

Now consider Guard. Guard have no reason to take either conscripts or veterans because you cannot justify conscripts being the same price as infantry nor can you justify +2pts for a measly +1BS in addition to increased plasma and melta prices.
And there are plenty of other units that can be adjusted to level the adjustments: chimera and sentinels for example.

The way I see it, adjusting the points of Guard infantry is the first step to reaching a semblance of internal and external balance. And if Guard go up, we gain more granularity in points to further distinguish units. Skitarii rangers can go to 8 or even 9 pts, kabalites go up to 7 or 8 etc...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Which would you rather have:
Specific levels of officers(Senior, Junior, and Sergeants) where each one grants a specific style of buff in the vein of the Protocols on the Kastelan Robots(Perk+Downside)...or the system we have now?

Cause I'd rather have the former than the latter, where each 'level' of Officer(Seniors as HQs, Juniors as Elites, Sergeants only applying to their squads) brings something unique and interesting to the army but once they're dead they lose access to that buff.

I think the basis of the current command system is good (if not all of the commands.) It is way more interesting than the Marine system, where one guy just buffs everything around him. I rather wish marines had a command system too, instead of auras. Also, a system where there is a limit on how many and what sort of units one character can buff is much easier to balance. Guilliman is ludicrously overcosted if he is buffing couple of tactical squads, but park a maniple of Leviathan Dreadnoughts around him and he becomes magnitudes more powerful.

Yeah, I love the Order system and wish we could just replace all auras with unit by unit orders. Fireblades give volley fire to up to 2 squads. guilliman gives rerolls to say 3 squads etc...

Gman would be really OP in a guard army. In space marines - he just doubles down on their weakness - they have no survivability. That's 400 points less of durability. My best lists don't have guilliman in it. They have Clagar and a Lut - because it's better. I'd have to bring 2 Hq's anyways - and those HQ's are more or less useless when you have Gman around. So Gman is almost like being 600 points in a marine army.