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w1zard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
And one Officer can only give one unit one of those perks, provided he's within 12" or you've parked him within 3" of a unit upgraded with a Vox-Caster and the other unit has a Vox-Caster and is within 18".

You act like "reroll 1s to hit" for both combat and shooting isn't a big deal.
Lieutenants do the same benefit, just for wound rolls instead.

Orders are actually 6" not 12", same as auras.

You're right--I keep typing out Creed's range instead of a standard officer.

Can you guess who only runs Cadians?

So I've had a look and you can take a list of 12 Cadian IS, 15 Krieg IS, 9 Elysian IS, 6 Scion squads, alongside 3 Tempestors, 3 platoon commanders, 3 company commanders, Creed, 3 Elysian commanders, 3 Elysian platoon commanders, 3 DK Marshals, 3 Deathrider Officers, Marshal Venner and 3 DK Field Officers.

That gives you wayyy over 2k of pure infantry - 2850pts worth, without a single upgrade - of guard infantry and commanders, 420 models of IG infantry squads, all getting 100% orders 100% of the time.

Are you willing to retire this unwarranted concern? It strikes me that of all the factions in 40k, IG are the absolute least affected by the rule of 3.

 grouchoben wrote:
So I've had a look and you can take a list of 12 IS, 12 Krieg IS, 9 Elysian IS, 6 Scion squads, alongside 3 Tempestors, 3 platoon commanders, 3 company commanders, Creed, 3 Elysian commanders, 3 Elysian platoon commanders, 3 DK Marshals, Marshal Venner and 3 DK Field Officers.

That gives you wayyy over 2k of pure infatry - 2648pts worth, without a single upgrade - of guard infantry and commanders, 390 models of IG infantry squads, all getting 100% orders 100% of the time.

And how do you have that organized?

Are you willing to retire this unwarranted concern?

No, because really all you've done is just throw a bunch of random numbers and profiles out.

Exactly, the detachment organisation inhibits the upper level of ordered infantry way before rule of 3 does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're not 'random', as I think you know.

You complained that rule of 3 inhibits the number of ordered infantry you can field. I showed that it really really really doesn't.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And one Officer can only give one unit one of those perks

When has anyone stated otherwise?

 grouchoben wrote:
Exactly, the detachment organisation inhibits the upper level of ordered infantry way before rule of 3 does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
They're not 'random', as I think you know.

You complained that rule of 3 inhibits the number of ordered infantry you can field. I showed that it really really really doesn't.

You showed that you can bypass it because of different datasheets, just like Marines can.

You also still haven't answered the question of how that mess is organized.

 grouchoben wrote:
So I've had a look and you can take a list of 12 Cadian IS, 15 Krieg IS, 9 Elysian IS, 6 Scion squads, alongside 3 Tempestors, 3 platoon commanders, 3 company commanders, Creed, 3 Elysian commanders, 3 Elysian platoon commanders, 3 DK Marshals, 3 Deathrider Officers, Marshal Venner and 3 DK Field Officers.

That gives you wayyy over 2k of pure infantry - 2850pts worth, without a single upgrade - of guard infantry and commanders, 420 models of IG infantry squads, all getting 100% orders 100% of the time.

Are you willing to retire this unwarranted concern? It strikes me that of all the factions in 40k, IG are the absolute least affected by the rule of 3.

Um...what? I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but what you are saying here is that if, for example, you took a Dark Angel detachment, a Blood Angel Detachment, a Space Wolf Detachment, and a vanilla Space Marine detachment, that you can get a number of named and unnamed characters to buff your army. After all, unless I am mistaken, aren't Elysians and Krieg their own lists? Can Krieg or Elysians even take Scions? I seriously don't know, as they are in a completely different supplement from the Guard Codex that I do not own. If they can't, how are you stuffing 7HQs and 18 troop slots into a single Cadian Brigade? Or for that matter, don't Brigades cap at 12 troop choices? Do Krieg Infantry Squads also come in on Elites or something?

I'm just confused on how this is proving, well, anything? Beyond the fact that if you take 5+ detachments (when most places limit you to 3), go through 3 different army lists (I'm not sure if Krieg and Elysian are considered the same army, I doubt it, but as I don't own their completely separate publication, I cannot tell), you can get a lot of infantry and orders into the field.

They are all guard infantry units, some are FW is all. They are all different named datasheets (eg DK Marshall/ Company Commander), so it's perfectly legal.

Kanluwen argued that rule of 3 inhibits the number of command-receiving infantry you can field in an IG list. I just proved that it doesn't by a long shot. You just have to be willing to use models outside of Cadian regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to keep it purely non-FW, you can still take 150 infantry models and enough commanders to give them all orders 100% of the time, just with IS and Scions, for 1078pts of bare-bones infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Can Krieg or Elysians even take Scions?" - Sure, you'd just lose the Tempestus regimental bonus, but you can certainly make up a batallion of 2 krieg infatry squads and a scion squad. They are all from the same faction, and share <astra militarum> keywords. (Krieg don't get a regimental bonus anyway, so it's not such a crazy idea.)

 alextroy wrote:

gbghg wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Why do you think it isn't a problem for you to be able to buff up all your infantry?

Why that a problem when guard can do it but not a problem when marines or some other factions can do it via aura's instead? Every army has way's of buffing their unit's Guard just differ's in that their primary way of doing so is single buffs to a unit rather than an AOE radius around a character that buffs everything that stands in it.

While Guard do a have limit in how many Orders a model can give, they gain from that in flexibility. Yes, a Space Marine Captain can give every unit within 6" Reroll 1's to Hit all the time, but he can't give them 5 other options depending upon what is the most useful. No Extra move, no fight in the Shooting Phase, no Reroll 1's to Wound, no Shoot after Falling Back.

So you'd agree with me if i said that both a space marine captain and a company commander have useful ways of buffing surrounding units? With the difference being that the Company Commander can only affect 2 units in the shooting phase with a selection of buffs (most of which are situational but are pretty useful in said situation) compared to re-rolling 1's in both the shooting and fighting phases for as many units as you can fit within the captain's aura which can be a decent chunk of your army if you pack them in close enough. Guard have very few AOE buff's available but in return they gain flexibility with the order system, which already had a soft cap in regards to listbuilding due to the fact that you want less orders than you have squads to order but which will now also be hardcapped under the rule of 3, compared to marines which lack the flexibility but have a buff which is useful in multiple phases, which is pretty strong in an army that's already hitting on 3's and which is only limited by how many bases you can get within 6"'s of him.

Both of these systems are distinct from each other, both of them have their advantages and disadvantages as well, space marine captain's are pretty useful by themselves in any case as opposed to a company commander who will typically normally only get used in the shooting or fighting phases if things are wrong or as a hail Mary.

grouchoben wrote:Grenadiers is amazing on Kriegers and good on scions. Only Krak and above need apply.

10 krieg engineers with 'bring it down', throwing 10 poison gas bombs at a daemon prince, does 8.63 for 1cp. That's a guard infantry unit probably one-shotting a DP right there. They mess up primarchs, riptides, hive tyrants, etc., just the same way.

Yeah, they're not cadians, so they may not count in some people's eyes.

And a lot of jokers here try to object when I point out how terribly written and broken FW rules are

That said, the fact that IG order might be OP on Krieg has nothing to do with IG's balance. It's all on FW, just like say Fire Raptors big undercosting was also squarely on FW and had nothing to do with SM 'normal' army strength.

vipoid wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

No, we actually have a unit called Heavy Weapon Squads. That's where those weapons should be. The whole concept of the Heavy Weapons Team needs to be revisited.

You do understand that real life infantry platoons carried heavy weapons, right? E.g. a WW2 platoon would have:
- 1 Mortar (usually to create smoke for cover)
- 1x Rocket Launcher (or similar anti-tank weapon)
- 3x Light Machine Gun (to provide covering fire)

And, whilst we do have Heavy Weapon Squads, they're bizarre units with no real equivalent. You see, in real life, an actual heavy gun would have its own dedicated unit who would assemble it, carry ammunition for it, measure ranges for it in advance, defend it and, of course, fire it. Hence why I said that, if anything, Infantry Squads actually seem closer to dedicated heavy-weapon units than the actual heavy weapon squads.

Um, you're actually both wrong. While it's true infantry platoons have their integrated support weapons (thus Kanluwen has no point), the IG army in 40K is not on platoon level. It's actually a company. And, in real life, infantry company has rifle platoons (what would be infantry squads in 40K), but the company also has a command squad (that you can field in 40K) and it also has a dedicated heavy platoon that fields the company's medium mortars and heavy machine guns (what would in 40K be HWTs armed with heavy bolters and mortars). Granted, the heavy platoon had a bit larger ratio of men to guns than IG does (around 4-5 men per mortar or hmg) but you can hand-wave that saying most of them wouldn't be present - people like forward observers and read security wouldn't hang out with the guns, leaving the ratio quite close to IG's HWTs. And that is what they are supposed to represent...

 grouchoben wrote:
They are all guard infantry units, some are FW is all. They are all different named datasheets (eg DK Marshall/ Company Commander), so it's perfectly legal.

Kanluwen argued that rule of 3 inhibits the number of command-receiving infantry you can field in an IG list. I just proved that it doesn't by a long shot. You just have to be willing to use models outside of Cadian regiment.

I argued that rule of 3 inhibits the number of command receiving infantry you can field in an IG list. You just threw together random datasheets and called it a day.

If you want to keep it purely non-FW, you can still take 150 infantry models and enough commanders to give them all orders 100% of the time, just with IS and Scions, for 1078pts of bare-bones infantry.

It's not even a question of "purely non-FW", you're seeming to not get that taking a full Brigade's worth of any <Regiment>, purely of Infantry, is going to have the effect of eating up all of your "rule of 3" thanks to there only being 6 Officers you can take.

"Can Krieg or Elysians even take Scions?" - Sure, you'd just lose the Tempestus regimental bonus, but you can certainly make up a batallion of 2 krieg infatry squads and a scion squad. They are all from the same faction, and share <astra militarum> keywords. (Krieg don't get a regimental bonus anyway, so it's not such a crazy idea.)

You lose the Tempestus Regimental bonus if you take them as anything but a pure Tempestus detachment.

 grouchoben wrote:
They are all guard infantry units, some are FW is all. They are all different named datasheets (eg DK Marshall/ Company Commander), so it's perfectly legal.

Kanluwen argued that rule of 3 inhibits the number of command-receiving infantry you can field in an IG list. I just proved that it doesn't by a long shot. You just have to be willing to use models outside of Cadian regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to keep it purely non-FW, you can still take 150 infantry models and enough commanders to give them all orders 100% of the time, just with IS and Scions, for 1078pts of bare-bones infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Can Krieg or Elysians even take Scions?" - Sure, you'd just lose the Tempestus regimental bonus, but you can certainly make up a batallion of 2 krieg infatry squads and a scion squad. They are all from the same faction, and share <astra militarum> keywords. (Krieg don't get a regimental bonus anyway, so it's not such a crazy idea.)

Just because you managed to avoid the rule of 3 due to FW's habit of creating separate datasheets for everything doesn't change the fact that that's an utterly impractical mess of a list. Not only would no one ever attempt to run such a list it wouldn't even be tourney legal unless said tourney would let you run 8 battalions. I would argue that is a pretty good example why you shouldn't be concerned. In any case having an order for every squad is a bad way of building lists and the way the system works means only a regiments officers can order them so there's a strong incentive to keep your squads and officer's all in a single regiment as opposed to bringing multiple regiments.

 grouchoben wrote:
They are all guard infantry units, some are FW is all. They are all different named datasheets (eg DK Marshall/ Company Commander), so it's perfectly legal.

Kanluwen argued that rule of 3 inhibits the number of command-receiving infantry you can field in an IG list. I just proved that it doesn't by a long shot. You just have to be willing to use models outside of Cadian regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you want to keep it purely non-FW, you can still take 150 infantry models and enough commanders to give them all orders 100% of the time, just with IS and Scions, for 1078pts of bare-bones infantry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Can Krieg or Elysians even take Scions?" - Sure, you'd just lose the Tempestus regimental bonus, but you can certainly make up a batallion of 2 krieg infatry squads and a scion squad. They are all from the same faction, and share <astra militarum> keywords. (Krieg don't get a regimental bonus anyway, so it's not such a crazy idea.)

Ah, ok, so Krieg and Elysians treat Scions the same as the regiments in the Codex.

150 models....so that is 12 Infantry Squads and 6 Scion Squads? And then...hmm..3 Company Commanders, 3 Platoon Commanders, and Creed for 12 Orders to the Cadians, and then 3 Tempestors in the Scion detachment, all upgraded to the +1 order stick? He, maybe I should switch to Cadians.

I'd hope some of the remaining points would be used to give those units some baseline upgrades at least, but I will concede that you can get up to 18 units ordered using 2 detachments.

Yeah, I agree with everything you say gbghg. It was a toy list to prove a little point, not a serious proposition. I think I'll leave this particular argument there, as I don't mean to escalate a small point! And, y'know, we're well off topic anyway

w1zard wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
While Guard do a have limit in how many Orders a model can give, they gain from that in flexibility. Yes, a Space Marine Captain can give every unit within 6" Reroll 1's to Hit all the time, but he can't give them 5 other options depending upon what is the most useful. No Extra move, no fight in the Shooting Phase, no Reroll 1's to Wound, no Shoot after Falling Back.

True, but a space marine captain is actually a somewhat dangerous combatant. Unless you are giving guard officers powerfists (and most of the time even then) they die ALMOST as fast as a standard guardsman and don't really accomplish much outside of buffing. Buying a guard officer is like buying a changeable buff for two of your units attached to 3 T3 wounds at a 5++.

Not dangerous enough most of the time.

Martel732 wrote:
Not dangerous enough most of the time.

As I said earlier in the thread. We should not be comparing IG to space marines or GK. Those are the two dumpster fire factions this edition and they should not be used as a fair criteria for what is considered "balanced".

I was just saying that comparing guard officers to a character like a space marine captain is an apples to oranges comparison. A space marine captain (and similar hero characters) are combatants and counter-chargers, you pay for the platform and the aura ability. Guard officers aren't really a "platform" outside of character protection. You can literally consider them two orders on a stick, their damage output and defense are negligible. Their "aura" also only affects two units MAXIMUM within 6" as opposed to aura characters which affect every unit that you can cram at least partially within 6".

Orders are functionally WORSE then auras. They make up for it by the effect being changeable to suit the situation.

So I am still sensing that all the people with a problem here think they can only have a fair game against guard if they get 60-90 points extra when playing a typical Guard army? That does seem to be well within the margin of error which does seem to suggest that if you are having a problem playing against Guard the problem is probably a bit bigger?

The_Real_Chris wrote:
So I am still sensing that all the people with a problem here think they can only have a fair game against guard if they get 60-90 points extra when playing a typical Guard army? That does seem to be well within the margin of error which does seem to suggest that if you are having a problem playing against Guard the problem is probably a bit bigger?

We are just staying on topic which is are Guardsmen worth 5ppm to which the answer is yes.

No one is saying undercosted infantry squads are the only issues with the codex. It's just the one that comes into every game be it vrs guard or imperial soup.

Against pure guard the tanks outperform atleast marine and tau tanks

Against Soup the CP generation is out of control.

But if you try and tackle evrything with a single magic fix, you make the same mistakes GW has for years with the swings being massive and failing to address the underlying issue.

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not dangerous enough most of the time.

As I said earlier in the thread. We should not be comparing IG to space marines or GK. Those are the two dumpster fire factions this edition and they should not be used as a fair criteria for what is considered "balanced".

I was just saying that comparing guard officers to a character like a space marine captain is an apples to oranges comparison. A space marine captain (and similar hero characters) are combatants and counter-chargers, you pay for the platform and the aura ability. Guard officers aren't really a "platform" outside of character protection. You can literally consider them two orders on a stick, their damage output and defense are negligible. Their "aura" also only affects two units MAXIMUM within 6" as opposed to aura characters which affect every unit that you can cram at least partially within 6".

Orders are functionally WORSE then auras. They make up for it by the effect being changeable to suit the situation.

Orders are only worse if you look at them in a vaccum. The reality is that IG units are more buffed than other imperial units. You don't need to aura your tanks because they have a regimental bonus that is equal or better than being in a reroll 1's aura and at the same time you are free to be anywhere on the table (I can't emphasis how important that last part is) Controlling an army huddling around 1 6" aura is not easy. To do it well is probably the hardest strategic thing to do in 40k. Not to mention - if you are running catachans - you can get a reroll 1's aura and reroll for a blast weapon at the same time. Or any regiment can just run command tanks for 3+ to hit reroll 1's (obviously these are best as catachan too and this is what everyone does). You know what's better than auras? Getting the effect of auras for free!

"But space marines can reroll all hits!" Well that is true and they do. They gotta spend 3 command points for that or take an expensive chapter master. They range from 155-200 points. Or in other words - they aren't worth their bonus unless your entire army is in bubble. Typically they are closes combat beasts too - but it's impossible to leverage that and buff your army at the same time - It's more of a side perk really and will only matter in certain matchups. Plus how many 2's do you roll in a game? Is it really worth giving up the table presence? I have come to the conclusion - it really doesn't unless it comes to overwatch.

I do think Regimental Doctrines are very strong - or at least, the strong ones are.

Catachan and Cadian doctrines are just far and away really good, though I'd mention that the Cadian doctrine is effectively shared by a good portion of Dark Angels if I'm not mistaken.

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not dangerous enough most of the time.

As I said earlier in the thread. We should not be comparing IG to space marines or GK. Those are the two dumpster fire factions this edition and they should not be used as a fair criteria for what is considered "balanced".

I was just saying that comparing guard officers to a character like a space marine captain is an apples to oranges comparison. A space marine captain (and similar hero characters) are combatants and counter-chargers, you pay for the platform and the aura ability. Guard officers aren't really a "platform" outside of character protection. You can literally consider them two orders on a stick, their damage output and defense are negligible. Their "aura" also only affects two units MAXIMUM within 6" as opposed to aura characters which affect every unit that you can cram at least partially within 6".

Orders are functionally WORSE then auras. They make up for it by the effect being changeable to suit the situation.

So is the Captain more dangerous for the price by how much? 74 points is bare bones Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, and two Officers is 60 points. Equip them however you want, and how long does the fight last?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I do think Regimental Doctrines are very strong - or at least, the strong ones are.

Catachan and Cadian doctrines are just far and away really good, though I'd mention that the Cadian doctrine is effectively shared by a good portion of Dark Angels if I'm not mistaken.

Which is a problem as they don't get it on their vehicles, and it's redundant with Captains existing. It doesn't force you to be in the aura at all times, but an army like Dark Angels wants to keep moving.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

w1zard wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not dangerous enough most of the time.

As I said earlier in the thread. We should not be comparing IG to space marines or GK. Those are the two dumpster fire factions this edition and they should not be used as a fair criteria for what is considered "balanced".

I was just saying that comparing guard officers to a character like a space marine captain is an apples to oranges comparison. A space marine captain (and similar hero characters) are combatants and counter-chargers, you pay for the platform and the aura ability. Guard officers aren't really a "platform" outside of character protection. You can literally consider them two orders on a stick, their damage output and defense are negligible. Their "aura" also only affects two units MAXIMUM within 6" as opposed to aura characters which affect every unit that you can cram at least partially within 6".

Orders are functionally WORSE then auras. They make up for it by the effect being changeable to suit the situation.

So is the Captain more dangerous for the price by how much? 74 points is bare bones Bolt Pistol and Chainsword, and two Officers is 60 points. Equip them however you want, and how long does the fight last?

Bare bones, the SM Captain does an average of 2.16 wounds to the Company Commanders, or 16pts of damage.

In return, 2 Company Commanders do 0.59 wounds, or 9pts of damage.

This doesn't account for the Company Commanders ordering themselves though, as there's nothing that directly helps the Fight Phase. However in the second turn they could Fix Bayonets themselves and Fight twice, which puts their damage output above the Captain in terms of points worth of damage.

No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

You mean on the commanders? I think they are usually barbones.

For captains, the only options I ever see taken are chainswords that can be teeth of Terra or thunder hammer.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Possibly Teeth Of Terra, which is about one of the only good things in the Vanilla codex.

jcd386 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

You mean on the commanders? I think they are usually barbones.

For captains, the only options I ever see taken are chainswords that can be teeth of Terra or thunder hammer.

I take primarchs wrath to give him solid shooting and a power fist.

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders, but he is now doing 3.46 average wounds a turn, or 26pts worth of damage.

With the extra Commander, they are now doing 24pts of damage back, so the Captain wins the first round barely, but gets stomped in future rounds still due to Fix Bayonets.

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders

That's also why I talked about for the price. You get 14 points of upgrades for the Commanders before even considering relics.

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders, but he is now doing 3.46 average wounds a turn, or 26pts worth of damage.

With the extra Commander, they are now doing 24pts of damage back, so the Captain wins the first round barely, but gets stomped in future rounds still due to Fix Bayonets.

Okay - nice evaluation. So really - the space marine captain is inferior to IG commanders in close combat - where he should be flat out superior. Why the heck to they have 5++ saves anyways? Why do space marines in power armor not?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders, but he is now doing 3.46 average wounds a turn, or 26pts worth of damage.

With the extra Commander, they are now doing 24pts of damage back, so the Captain wins the first round barely, but gets stomped in future rounds still due to Fix Bayonets.

Okay - nice evaluation. So really - the space marine captain is inferior to IG commanders in close combat - where he should be flat out superior. Why the heck to they have 5++ saves anyways? Why do space marines in power armor not?

The SM Captain is only worse when points are wasted on upgrades.

Furthermore, the IG commanders have a 5++ because they are issued Refractor Fields by the departmento munitorum, a device so miraculous it was once used to fool an entire subcult of Emperor worshippers into thinking the Emperor himself was protecting the person in question.