Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders, but he is now doing 3.46 average wounds a turn, or 26pts worth of damage.

With the extra Commander, they are now doing 24pts of damage back, so the Captain wins the first round barely, but gets stomped in future rounds still due to Fix Bayonets.

Okay - nice evaluation. So really - the space marine captain is inferior to IG commanders in close combat - where he should be flat out superior. Why the heck to they have 5++ saves anyways? Why do space marines in power armor not?

The SM Captain is only worse when points are wasted on upgrades.

Furthermore, the IG commanders have a 5++ because they are issued Refractor Fields by the departmento munitorum, a device so miraculous it was once used to fool an entire subcult of Emperor worshippers into thinking the Emperor himself was protecting the person in question.

This is why arguing with people like Xenomancers is really not worthwhile. The goals get shuffled about so much it's silly.

So a SM captain gets worse vs a Guard Captain when you dump points into CC upgrades for the Marine Captain.
What happens when you give them a ranged weapon upgrade instead?

Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

"Does nothing" = smashes Guard company commanders, sure, ok.

2's re-rolling 1s to hit, 3's to wound, 5+ save doesn't go far.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

You think talking to Xeno is bad? Kan is as bad as Eldar apologists from the last two editions!

Idk how relevant this is. But it took me a squad of Catachans with a power sword SGT, priest, company Commander with the Mamorph Tuskblade, and Straken to take down a Primaris CPT in Gravis armor. I had to use rerolls, plasma pistols, and Fix Bayonets. It was a slugfest.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

Did you actually have a counterargument or just snarky remarks?

A Primaris Captain is S4 with 5 attacks. He has WS2, meaning he hits on 2s.
S4 vs T3= wounding on 3s. He'll have no AP, meaning the Company Commander gets a save of 5+ or a 5+ Invuln.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

You think talking to Xeno is bad? Kan is as bad as Eldar apologists from the last two editions!

Except I'm not the one saying "he does nothing in melee", when he's still able to make 5 attacks on 2's to hit (rerolling 1s for 'Rites of Battle') and S4 means he'll be wounding on 3s..

Will it be removing the 5+ save on a Guard Company Commander? No. But it's a 5+save on Company Commanders...so there's a fairly reasonable chance of failure.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Stux wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
No one takes a barebones captain though - he will at least have a power sword. Most like a power fist.

Power sword literally changes nothing as the Commanders are 5+/5++

Power Fist takes him up to nearly the cost of 3 Commanders, but he is now doing 3.46 average wounds a turn, or 26pts worth of damage.

With the extra Commander, they are now doing 24pts of damage back, so the Captain wins the first round barely, but gets stomped in future rounds still due to Fix Bayonets.

Okay - nice evaluation. So really - the space marine captain is inferior to IG commanders in close combat - where he should be flat out superior. Why the heck to they have 5++ saves anyways? Why do space marines in power armor not?

The SM Captain is only worse when points are wasted on upgrades.

Furthermore, the IG commanders have a 5++ because they are issued Refractor Fields by the departmento munitorum, a device so miraculous it was once used to fool an entire subcult of Emperor worshippers into thinking the Emperor himself was protecting the person in question.

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

Did you actually have a counterargument or just snarky remarks?

A Primaris Captain is S4 with 5 attacks. He has WS2, meaning he hits on 2s.
S4 vs T3= wounding on 3s. He'll have no AP, meaning the Company Commander gets a save of 5+ or a 5+ Invuln.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

You think talking to Xeno is bad? Kan is as bad as Eldar apologists from the last two editions!

Except I'm not the one saying "he does nothing in melee", when he's still able to make 5 attacks on 2's to hit (rerolling 1s for 'Rites of Battle') and S4 means he'll be wounding on 3s..

Will it be removing the 5+ save on a Guard Company Commander? No. But it's a 5+save on Company Commanders...so there's a fairly reasonable chance of failure.

Yeah that's nothing.

Otherwise are you saying Assault Marines are a credible threat?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

"Does nothing" = smashes Guard company commanders, sure, ok.

2's re-rolling 1s to hit, 3's to wound, 5+ save doesn't go far.

It's not enough to average a kill. Not even a power fist averages a kill against him. 5++ save for no reason.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then he does nothing in melee for 75 points while paying for melee stats?

He'll still have 5 attacks, hitting on 2s with S4.

Holy crap, I can't believe i just read this.

You think talking to Xeno is bad? Kan is as bad as Eldar apologists from the last two editions!

I resent this but your statement is half true.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

You didn't take power swords vs Ork hordes, right?

So now you want to take list tailoring into the equation?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

You didn't take power swords vs Ork hordes, right?

So now you want to take list tailoring into the equation?

I mean, if you're going to complain about fighting nothing but Guard--money where your mouth is. Start list tailoring or get out.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Well hes in flak armor - I assume he should have a 5+ save with no invulnerable. There's probably more CC than there are space marines in the imperium - if refractor feilds are that common I'm wondering why they don't give them to the astartes - they would make better use of them. Come on man - it's a joke that a CC has a 5++ save.

Kind of like my librarian - hes in power armor so he has a 3+ save - with no invulnerable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Well hes in flak armor - I assume he should have a 5+ save with no invulnerable. There's probably more CC than there are space marines in the imperium - if refractor feilds are that common I'm wondering why they don't give them to the astartes - they would make better use of them. Come on man - it's a joke that a CC has a 5++ save.

You have Iron Halos on your Captains. A 3+ save(or in the case of Terminators, 2+) with a 4++.

Kind of like my librarian - hes in power armor so he has a 3+ save - with no invulnerable.

If you want an Invulnerable save, take one in Terminator Armour.

Also, cast Null Zone and that Company Commander has no Invulnerable Save. I mean since you're taking a Librarian anyways...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

You didn't take power swords vs Ork hordes, right?

So now you want to take list tailoring into the equation?

A power fist is the minimum weapon - outside of a relic weapon that people are going to give their captain. I don't even know what this argument is about. No one takes a bare-bones captain - it would be like taking DE warriors without taking blasters or shredders - it would be idiotic.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Well hes in flak armor - I assume he should have a 5+ save with no invulnerable. There's probably more CC than there are space marines in the imperium - if refractor feilds are that common I'm wondering why they don't give them to the astartes - they would make better use of them. Come on man - it's a joke that a CC has a 5++ save.

Kind of like my librarian - hes in power armor so he has a 3+ save - with no invulnerable.

So this is part of the problem with the demise of the old Wargear system.

Refractor fields used to only be an option for Company Commanders, just like how an Iron Halo could be taken by any Space Marine character, not just captains. When GW took down the Armoury system, they had to decide who got the One Per Army Invuln save and just stick it onto them. In older editions, a single Guard character on the entire battlefield could have a 5++; similarly, any SINGLE marine not in Terminator armour could get a 4++. All the others just sucked.

I kind of wish we could return to that system, but the Armoury system has been dead since 5th.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Well hes in flak armor - I assume he should have a 5+ save with no invulnerable. There's probably more CC than there are space marines in the imperium - if refractor feilds are that common I'm wondering why they don't give them to the astartes - they would make better use of them. Come on man - it's a joke that a CC has a 5++ save.

You have Iron Halos on your Captains. A 3+ save(or in the case of Terminators, 2+) with a 4++.

Kind of like my librarian - hes in power armor so he has a 3+ save - with no invulnerable.

If you want an Invulnerable save, take one in Terminator Armour.

Also, cast Null Zone and that Company Commander has no Invulnerable Save. I mean since you're taking a Librarian anyways...

terminator armor is 31 points. It cost more than the freaking CC. This is just golden man. Literally - golden.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

You didn't take power swords vs Ork hordes, right?

So now you want to take list tailoring into the equation?

I mean, if you're going to complain about fighting nothing but Guard--money where your mouth is. Start list tailoring or get out.

I'm sorry but where did I complain about that?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Truthfully, you are the one incapable of "seeing past" their own army. You dumped points into a CC weapon that has AP-3 against an army where the best saves are not really going to be too intimidated by that since the stuff is already at a fairly high save.

So scions arn't worried by power weapons?
Also power weapons are fairly normal fair for marine HQ's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Unaware that it was a waste to put decent weapons on units that have 2+ bs 2+ WS....oh yeah...it's not. It's actually a waste NOT to put them there. You guys are just incapable of seeing past your own army. The reality is - that the CC should not even have a 5++ save. That is just more sheer lunacy coming out of the AM codex.

He has a 5++ save or a 5+ save.

What, should he have a 3+ and a 5++?

Well hes in flak armor - I assume he should have a 5+ save with no invulnerable. There's probably more CC than there are space marines in the imperium - if refractor feilds are that common I'm wondering why they don't give them to the astartes - they would make better use of them. Come on man - it's a joke that a CC has a 5++ save.

You have Iron Halos on your Captains. A 3+ save(or in the case of Terminators, 2+) with a 4++.

Kind of like my librarian - hes in power armor so he has a 3+ save - with no invulnerable.

If you want an Invulnerable save, take one in Terminator Armour.

Also, cast Null Zone and that Company Commander has no Invulnerable Save. I mean since you're taking a Librarian anyways...

Terminators are 2+, 5++ not sure where your getting your stats from but they are not correct.
FYI an Iron Halo is 4++ not 3++

Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

I would say less OP just undercosted like most of codex astra BOGOF.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

You should know by now that you can't prove anything Guard is undercosted to these guys.

The Shadowsword is a perfect example that gets glossed over. It has no business being as strong as it is.

How many points is a Primaris Captain for the damage output of a buffed up Ork Boy?

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

I would say less OP just undercosted like most of codex astra BOGOF.

Undercosted and OP mean the exact same thing to me dude.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
How many points is a Primaris Captain for the damage output of a buffed up Ork Boy?

inb4
"at least you got new models"

If "new models" mattered at all, Marines would feel so much pity for Dark Reapers it wouldn't even be funny.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

You should know by now that you can't prove anything Guard is undercosted to these guys.

The Shadowsword is a perfect example that gets glossed over. It has no business being as strong as it is.

One shotting titans (any vehicle under 1000 points) is perfectly acceptable for 440 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Does anyone else think it's absurd that equal points of well armed company commanders beat a well armed space marine captain in CC? This is clearly proff that they are OP is it not?

I would say less OP just undercosted like most of codex astra BOGOF.

Undercosted and OP mean the exact same thing to me dude.

I would say Alitoc is OP as they realy need a rewrite to be balanced where as most of the guard stuff doesn't need new rules just to pay a fair points cost for what they get. But neither are fun to play against.