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Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






You don't need to move your defiler whatsoever. If you gear it properly, you can squat it in your deployment and never move it all game. I've got mine with the Havoc Launcher/Twin Las, and it's performed fantastic simply because it has a gun profile for every situation. When im just playing a random game against a take all comers army, my defiler never loses out.
   
Made in ca
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Personally i dont see the t sons as a good mono army.

The best way to run them is to spam their HQs, like the sorcerers and terminator sorcerers. Exaulted are horrible because you are paying so much more for really nothing, i think 1 more wound.

Hands down T sons have some of the best HQ in the game, but they are better used when paired with other armies, like nurgal, or cultist spam, which can work with a mono tsons, but i would rather do alpha legion cultists at that point.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in ca
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 vaklor4 wrote:
You don't need to move your defiler whatsoever. If you gear it properly, you can squat it in your deployment and never move it all game. I've got mine with the Havoc Launcher/Twin Las, and it's performed fantastic simply because it has a gun profile for every situation. When im just playing a random game against a take all comers army, my defiler never loses out.


I don't like how many points I have to spend to get a hunkered down Las Pred with melee it most likely wont use. I am not saying it does not work, or it is not a good choice, but for me I need to keep it mobile and Rushing up field. It deals more wounds in melee and you have to pay for that with the unit. Plus its a great distraction. Mileage varies as always.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Backspacehacker wrote:
Personally i dont see the t sons as a good mono army.

The best way to run them is to spam their HQs, like the sorcerers and terminator sorcerers. Exaulted are horrible because you are paying so much more for really nothing, i think 1 more wound.

Hands down T sons have some of the best HQ in the game, but they are better used when paired with other armies, like nurgal, or cultist spam, which can work with a mono tsons, but i would rather do alpha legion cultists at that point.



I dunno. I disagree. I make and play full 1ksons lists. My meta is not balls out tourney lists but it has some real hard list with guard and deldar. I perform just fine unless with a distinct disadvantage to the two deldar players in my meta. I don't have a concrete number but I win more than I lose. And that with pure 1k. When I ally in other chaos its even better.

But I guess it comes down to your definition of good. Are they sweeping tourneys? Nope. Can they hang in most local metas? Yes.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/09 12:56:41


 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

A friend of mine is getting great results running 27 Tzaangor Enlightned (Great Bows), 2 Shaman, Ahriman on disc, a Demon Prince, Exaulted Sorcerer on disc, 3x10 Cultists and leaves the heavy shooting to a Leviathan with Grav and/or Contemptors with Butcher Cannons. It's a very aggressive list as everything but the dreads and cultists rush up the field and try to dominate it and all those Tzaangors are getting auto wounds on a 5+, 4+ for one unit with Prescience, whilst hitting on 2's re-rolling. Sure it's a glass hammer since they only have a 5++ but you point the right weapons at anything in this game and they'll die easily but their damage output is impressive for only 17ppm. It's also not hard to make one squad 4++ and another -1 to hit. Best thing about them is that their autowound ability also works in combat so they'll be dealing damage in 2 different phases.

What he's found is that Rubrics are useless, the Tzaangor Bomb is now easily countered by many armies with the Deep Strike changes (it takes up a lot of space on the table and only comming in turn 2 means your opponent has time to spread out and deny them anywhere useful to come down), Magnus is useless because he relies on buffs to do anything and even then he's not spectacular, and if you go second your opponent will have no trouble removing him. Interrestingly, a big squad of 10 Scarab Occult termies is about the same cost and does a lot more than Magnus, as they have a lot of anti infantry shooting. Unfortunately the FAQ that prevented moving after DS really hurt them as it's much harder to reach combat now without Warptime and thats really where they need to be to maximise their value.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

So I'm going to list a couple of points regarding my thoughts to Table's post (as I don't feel like quoting a whole block of text and adjust tags to address points individually (because I'm feeling lazy on my day off)):

1. Magnus goes down like the Hindenburg in any meta that is hard on knights. Which includes competetive. Maybe if you took him and a Renegade knight in a list to try and diffuse targets, but with him being a massive target he's automatically put on top of everyone's target priority list. Ironically Thousand Sons might be one of the best armies to fight him as well since they can reliably get a Death Hex off.

2. Tzaangors are good, but unless you're basically going full goat (and just filling your army with the 40k equiv of Furcon) you should temper your choices. Cultists have more range options which makes them better at camping objectives, plus are cheaper which can provide a solid foundation to any list. Tzaangors all want to be in melee, or close enough to get stuck in by being charge which fills more the hole of melee screening unit (cheap bodies with plenty of attacks).

3. SoT are more solid in anti-horde metas (less plasma more heavy bolters and the like) since they can tank anti-horde weapons reliably. Always play to your meta, or play so counter to it that you break the meta.

4. A shooting defiler shouldn't be moving. It should be camped on your back line with a psyker to give it Flickering Flames and maybe a defensive buff if you don't have other targets that players may want to focus on. An foot slogging Exalted Sorceror for this is likely best because he also gives rerolls of 1s on your to-hit rolls which helps mitigate your middling BS.

5. Thousand Sons are a strong middle army with potential for high level play when played by a strong player. They are an army that requires a lot of synergy planning from the list building stage and require you to stick to your plan (as best as possible of course) on the table to do well. That said, they are definitely doing better than regular Marines, so we have that going for us.
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I'm going to list a couple of points regarding my thoughts to Table's post (as I don't feel like quoting a whole block of text and adjust tags to address points individually (because I'm feeling lazy on my day off)):

1. Magnus goes down like the Hindenburg in any meta that is hard on knights. Which includes competetive. Maybe if you took him and a Renegade knight in a list to try and diffuse targets, but with him being a massive target he's automatically put on top of everyone's target priority list. Ironically Thousand Sons might be one of the best armies to fight him as well since they can reliably get a Death Hex off.

2. Tzaangors are good, but unless you're basically going full goat (and just filling your army with the 40k equiv of Furcon) you should temper your choices. Cultists have more range options which makes them better at camping objectives, plus are cheaper which can provide a solid foundation to any list. Tzaangors all want to be in melee, or close enough to get stuck in by being charge which fills more the hole of melee screening unit (cheap bodies with plenty of attacks).

3. SoT are more solid in anti-horde metas (less plasma more heavy bolters and the like) since they can tank anti-horde weapons reliably. Always play to your meta, or play so counter to it that you break the meta.

4. A shooting defiler shouldn't be moving. It should be camped on your back line with a psyker to give it Flickering Flames and maybe a defensive buff if you don't have other targets that players may want to focus on. An foot slogging Exalted Sorceror for this is likely best because he also gives rerolls of 1s on your to-hit rolls which helps mitigate your middling BS.

5. Thousand Sons are a strong middle army with potential for high level play when played by a strong player. They are an army that requires a lot of synergy planning from the list building stage and require you to stick to your plan (as best as possible of course) on the table to do well. That said, they are definitely doing better than regular Marines, so we have that going for us.


I agree with all of this.
   
Made in ca
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




 ClockworkZion wrote:
So I'm going to list a couple of points regarding my thoughts to Table's post (as I don't feel like quoting a whole block of text and adjust tags to address points individually (because I'm feeling lazy on my day off)):

1. Magnus goes down like the Hindenburg in any meta that is hard on knights. Which includes competetive. Maybe if you took him and a Renegade knight in a list to try and diffuse targets, but with him being a massive target he's automatically put on top of everyone's target priority list. Ironically Thousand Sons might be one of the best armies to fight him as well since they can reliably get a Death Hex off.

2. Tzaangors are good, but unless you're basically going full goat (and just filling your army with the 40k equiv of Furcon) you should temper your choices. Cultists have more range options which makes them better at camping objectives, plus are cheaper which can provide a solid foundation to any list. Tzaangors all want to be in melee, or close enough to get stuck in by being charge which fills more the hole of melee screening unit (cheap bodies with plenty of attacks).

3. SoT are more solid in anti-horde metas (less plasma more heavy bolters and the like) since they can tank anti-horde weapons reliably. Always play to your meta, or play so counter to it that you break the meta.

4. A shooting defiler shouldn't be moving. It should be camped on your back line with a psyker to give it Flickering Flames and maybe a defensive buff if you don't have other targets that players may want to focus on. An foot slogging Exalted Sorceror for this is likely best because he also gives rerolls of 1s on your to-hit rolls which helps mitigate your middling BS.

5. Thousand Sons are a strong middle army with potential for high level play when played by a strong player. They are an army that requires a lot of synergy planning from the list building stage and require you to stick to your plan (as best as possible of course) on the table to do well. That said, they are definitely doing better than regular Marines, so we have that going for us.


I think Magnus is a wee bit harder to remove than a Knight or a Knight equivalent. I mean he needs to be supported so that is eating up two of our buffs right out the gate but with enough CP he can dish out a extreme amount of MW's. He isnt half bad at killing medium armor in melee either. I find that when you take Magnus, you revolve your list totally around him. That includes the knowledge that your average player will most likely throw everything at him. I use that to my advantage. Yes I have had cases where hes down by turn 2 due to horrible rolls on saves but most of the time hes hit hard enough to make up his point cost. I have no tried him with knights yet but I have run him with two magic chickens and its interesting for sure.....

I still think Tzaangors are a good unit and hit very hard and even harder with the stratagem. I would not take them unless they are the focus of your assault forces, as you said, and would like to have one or two mutaliths with them.

There is to much plasma around here. SoTs die horribly. Any terminator is near useless. But thats my area. I still stand by what I said about it being a poorly designed unit and is a redundancy the army does not need. I run one squad for fluff at times. Never has it made its points back.

I understand people have success with shooty defs. And that is great. But for me, I dont find a twin Lascannon + battle cannon to be worthy of the points. Even moreso when you use buffs to make up for its short comings. For me, I run it upfield and find that it threatens not only armor but also chaff with its dual heavy flamer. Mostly it gets killed once people find out how hard it can hit in melee.

Strong middle, lower top. It is all the same I guess. Different metas will support different outcomes. We have a better showing than any other chaos dex including Death Guard and demons. In our next dex I hope to god they return rubrics AP and or cut their cost because I love the models and would like them to be the back bone of my army. But I just cant the way things are.
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






No Magnus is a lot eaiser to remove then a knight, less wounds, less toughness, and the same armor and invuln save with a knight strat.

The difference between t7 and t8 is massive and I think a lot of people underestimate that one point more of toughness.

Unless Magnus goes first for defensive spells you are boned. And that's his problem, you need to cast at least 2 spells on him for defenses that could be going else where

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

I'm just going to say this as a follow up on SoT: a meta that hard counters a unit doesn't make the unit bad, it just makes it the scissors to a meta's rock.

Which is unfortunate because I want every unit to be effective enough to be on the table (potentially), but the issue really is plasma spam at the moment.

Not that Primaris are helping since their only anti-tank is plasma save for the Repulsor.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






It wpuldnt be an issue if rock paper scissors were equal, but in this case the scissors are more like the jaws of life.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 vaklor4 wrote:
It wpuldnt be an issue if rock paper scissors were equal, but in this case the scissors are more like the jaws of life.

I would going to say that the rock is more like a tactical nuke, but same difference I guess.

Yes, it's unbalanced, but it doesn't make the unit itself bad, it makes the meta poor for the unit due to bad balance. It's just another part of the game I'm hoping sees more refinement in the next CA by making anti-tank weapons more expensive.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 ClockworkZion wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
It wpuldnt be an issue if rock paper scissors were equal, but in this case the scissors are more like the jaws of life.

I would going to say that the rock is more like a tactical nuke, but same difference I guess.

Yes, it's unbalanced, but it doesn't make the unit itself bad, it makes the meta poor for the unit due to bad balance. It's just another part of the game I'm hoping sees more refinement in the next CA by making anti-tank weapons more expensive.


Id consider a unit that is bad in the meta as bad. In a bubble, you can make the arguement that a list that runs Blue Horrors instead of Brimstones are better because it provides +1 invuln. But once you factor in how CP farming works, brims become better.

A model can only be deemed good or bad once brought out infront of other things in the game. And unfortunatly, high AP 2 damage weapons arent a small niche.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 vaklor4 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
It wpuldnt be an issue if rock paper scissors were equal, but in this case the scissors are more like the jaws of life.

I would going to say that the rock is more like a tactical nuke, but same difference I guess.

Yes, it's unbalanced, but it doesn't make the unit itself bad, it makes the meta poor for the unit due to bad balance. It's just another part of the game I'm hoping sees more refinement in the next CA by making anti-tank weapons more expensive.


Id consider a unit that is bad in the meta as bad. In a bubble, you can make the arguement that a list that runs Blue Horrors instead of Brimstones are better because it provides +1 invuln. But once you factor in how CP farming works, brims become better.

A model can only be deemed good or bad once brought out infront of other things in the game. And unfortunatly, high AP 2 damage weapons arent a small niche.

SoT work better on paper over Rubrics in every count, it's the way the game beats MeQ and TeQ over the head that is the issue more than those units themselves.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






 ClockworkZion wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
 ClockworkZion wrote:
 vaklor4 wrote:
It wpuldnt be an issue if rock paper scissors were equal, but in this case the scissors are more like the jaws of life.

I would going to say that the rock is more like a tactical nuke, but same difference I guess.

Yes, it's unbalanced, but it doesn't make the unit itself bad, it makes the meta poor for the unit due to bad balance. It's just another part of the game I'm hoping sees more refinement in the next CA by making anti-tank weapons more expensive.


Id consider a unit that is bad in the meta as bad. In a bubble, you can make the arguement that a list that runs Blue Horrors instead of Brimstones are better because it provides +1 invuln. But once you factor in how CP farming works, brims become better.

A model can only be deemed good or bad once brought out infront of other things in the game. And unfortunatly, high AP 2 damage weapons arent a small niche.

SoT work better on paper over Rubrics in every count, it's the way the game beats MeQ and TeQ over the head that is the issue more than those units themselves.


On paper I agree, SoTs are better in almost every way. But having multiple models is better than multiple wounds, and that is more just a fact of the game system than the weapons themselves.
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 vaklor4 wrote:
On paper I agree, SoTs are better in almost every way. But having multiple models is better than multiple wounds, and that is more just a fact of the game system than the weapons themselves.

That's the fault of the game system if nothing else. I'm not saying people should run either, but the unit isn't broken, the game mechanics around plasma is.

I mean they could have left plasma at 15 points a pop at the start of the edition and people would have still bought a lot of them with the split profile. The points cut just increased the amount that can be crammed into a list to an almost maddening extent.
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Give me 2 MSUs of Rubrics over a single SOT squad everyday of the week!

1: double the number of psykers, which is the one stand out advantage to these units. Chaos familiar strat is superb on an Aspiring Sorcerer, giving them deathhex or warptime or gaze of fate in a pinch if you need it, or you lose a key caster.

2: Much much harder to kill.

3: Obsec is legit.

4: Troop choices are king: you're 2/3s of the way there to 5CPs and you've gotta take something!

My Scarabs see so little table time it's embarrasing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So to the OP: don't expect them to rock your world, but yes, Rubrics are viable in 5-man squads. Give them firestorm or a support spell like temporal manipulation, plonk them somewhere vaguely useful, maybe splurge a CP to arm one with a potent Heretic spell, and try and be as douchy as possible with them. Expect little from their shooting. Admire their snazzy outfits.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/09 21:13:22


 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Even if you take 2 msu of rubrics there is still one problem....you are taking rubrics. Which suck ass in the game right now because they cost way to much.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Archmagos Veneratus Extremis




On the Internet

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Even if you take 2 msu of rubrics there is still one problem....you are taking rubrics. Which suck ass in the game right now because they cost way to much.

Possibly. Or hordes are too cheap. Or high AP weapons/high damage weapons are too common making MEQ worthless. Ect. Ect. Ect.

I've seen several topics on how bad Marine units are and basically there is no true concensus, just a lot of salt.
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






There's a time and place for everything Spacehacker, I think you might be trying to zoom into the meta so hard that you're missing corner cases. Some lists need to pump out mortal wounds to work, and you certainly arent doing that with cultists.
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Agreed. And I'm not saying they're competitive, I'm saying they're viable. You won't autolose just because you spent 214pts on two MSUs of Rubrics, and they can be quite useful in some lists. That's all.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/10 17:25:54


 
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Oh in no way do I think it's an auto loose by taking them, but the problem with them is they are so expensive why would I take them when there is way better unit options to take for the cost?

For the same cost I could take 30 horrors which have way more staying power because or the amount of multi damage and high AP.

Rubrics have the really big problem of lacking mobility. Only option is deep strike, or transports which transports have their own issues. Rubrics are just to meh to use, other units do their job better.

Ironiclly the only good way to run them is with alpha legion, and just walk into flamer range turn one and flame on.

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bay area, CA

I'm still going to run 3x10 Tzaangors in Rhinos + 20 in deepstrike. Slowly building them, i think it should work
   
Made in us
Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I'm still going to run 3x10 Tzaangors in Rhinos + 20 in deepstrike. Slowly building them, i think it should work
you could always try the suicide rhino I don't know first they faq'ed that

To many unpainted models to count. 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

I don't really disagree with anything you said. At the top end, 30 brimstones would be a better choice, but that's not part of a Sons' detachment. If you want a Sons' batallion, Rubrics can hold a spot, heal a DP, throw out some mortal wounds and look pretty.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bay area, CA

I've almost finished this list (13CP):

Ahriman
3 x DP

3x10 Tzaangors in Rhinos
1x20 Tzaangors deepstrike
2x10 cultists

2 x Shamans

Magnus

-----

Main idea is screen with rhinos, pop smoke, advance and charge.
And DP, Ahriman, Magnus and shamans smite everything.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/11 01:02:22


 
   
Made in ca
Monstrously Massive Big Mutant






The reason I would not prefer 30 pink horrors is that they're far easier to kill, and they lack any meaningful AP to deal with high armor saves. Additionally, unless you're bringing a herald with them, it's a strength 3 attack. It doesn't matter if you put out 90 shots because you lose a third of those to BS, two thirds of what remains to wound rolls, and if it's against anything of MEQ or higher, you lose another two thirds to armor save.

You're only getting about 2 wounds more than if you were to shoot with the rubrics that were mentioned, and that's after you count in the fact Rubrics are easier to get into cover, can cast legit psyker powers, and are far easier to get rerolls on. Your only option for pink horror rerolls is a DP, and if you're using a DP to reroll pink horror shots, you're doing it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ArtyomTrityak wrote:
I've almost finished this list (13CP):

Ahriman
3 x DP

3x10 Tzaangors in Rhinos
1x20 Tzaangors deepstrike
2x10 cultists

2 x Shamans

Magnus

-----

Main idea is screen with rhinos, pop smoke, advance and charge.
And DP, Ahriman, Magnus and shamans smite everything.


It's a nice list, but with nobody else to centre the enemy's anti-tank fire on, Magnus is guarenteed to go down faster than you'd expect him to.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/11 02:01:58


 
   
Made in gb
Combat Jumping Rasyat




East of England

Yeah, 13 drops is quite high, so you're going to be going first less that 50% of the time, which in many games means Magnus will die where he stands before he moves. But hey, run him if you love him, I get why you want your primarch on the table...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Other than that, I like it a lot because that Tzaangor/DP Zerg is going to be a lot of fun to play, and play against.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/11 08:41:58


 
   
Made in it
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle





Magnus right now if you dont start first 99% of times (outside casual games) dies, IK's destroy it, some custodes builds idem, eldar/IG/De same, is not worth play it if you want really compete, then of course in middle tier tournaments Magnus works pretty good. Magnus is useful to soak some damage and let the rest of your list deliver some damage, he works better if you play an aggressive list with blobs of tzaangors or Dp's, supported by some long range fire (leviathan, contemptors, helverins).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/11 22:03:05


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Made in ca
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine




Magnus post nerf is no longer a high tier competitive model. Meaning if you are at the crunchiest of tournaments its best to leave him on the shelf. But then again you have already shot yourself in the foot by bringing a chaos army so you may as well go out in style (im kidding, kinda).
For all other applications Magnus can go from a God Beast to passable (meta and opponent will decide which he is). My best round of Magnus smites was a 11-8-2. Mostly I average id say 6-8 MWs in smites from him. This is not counting his semi potent melee output and the psyker buffs his aura brings. The real problem with Magnus is not Magnus at all. Its what 8th has devolved into. Go first and alpha fire power down biggest threats and then push hordes forward. 8th has turned into quite a cluster puck. Regardless I stand by statement that he is a better choice than most give him and in realistic clubs or PuGs can be quite a force.

My way of playing that I have gravitated torwards with sons lists is mortal wound generation being first and most focused. Its no secret that we are spoiled with HQ options. So most of my harder lists revolve are half my points spent on HQs (Demon Princes) and the rest dumped into Tzzangors for cheap damage and cultists for chaff and objective holding. Sadly rubrics and sots do not fit into this equation. And its my biggest complaint with the codex.

And on SoTs. I think its a horrible unit by design because of its complete redundancy with rubrics. They need to be useful against things rubrics are not. Add onto this the overall trash level of terminator models in 8th and we get a heap of manure. At least with chaos marine terminators you can go with plasma's or anti armor. SoTs have neither and do neither. The fact they get a smite or power does not make up for this loss of firepower and the potential to damage more than elite power armored models. The points are far better spent elsewhere im afraid.

And while rubrics are not as bad as internet hyperbole would have you think, they are also a unit that does not fit into the army in any capacity other than cool factor. This really was codex tzaangor and smite spam. Hopefully they will fix this for 9th now that we have dropped plenty of cash on tzaangors and they want to sell rubrics again. Well see.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Bay area, CA

Does Shaman's +1 to hit aura work for shaman himself?
If yes, he's hitting on 2s S6, 3 attacks + smite, 90pts looks solid.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/12 17:59:24


 
   
 
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