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geargutz wrote:
"its coming when its coming"
yes, many players are asking for "when codex", but i dont think thats the main issue here, its the fact of absolutely no ork related articles from GW that isnt imperial knight spank or showing off a fans collection. many of us are asking for articles to help "HYPE" us up, and when GW is so unwilling to do any of that it makes us think they are trying to downplay the release, and many will assume thats because the codex is going to be crap. the silence is disturbing.

So because GW didn't hype tyranids when next codex was IG it was disturbing?

They don't hype codex that's not next one out. What is so hard about that?

tneva82 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Have you joined this thread just to troll Zion? Because that's how it's coming across. Orks and Space Wolves were announced over 75 days ago as the next 2 codexes. Other codex announcements have followed with previews 1-2 weeks later. Do you see the difference there? We've had nothing for over 2 months. No model previews. No rule previews. Nothing.

They got previews for NEXT codex. Not for 2nd and 3rd.

You have point normally we would have got sooner wolf hints but for orks it matters not if they tease at wolves at june when ork teasers would start when orks are next, ie after wolves codex release which is, wait for it, 25th august. So earliest you would have got ork teasers is 26th anyway. And teasing wolves june, july and august would be silly. As would be teasing june and then nothing until release.

You did not get tyranid teasers when next was IG. Simple as that. GW teases NEXT codex in turn. But yeah orks are obviously special snowflake codex that deserves something other codexes didn't get because...reasons.

You must have missed all those new GSC model previews??

tneva82 wrote:

geargutz wrote:
"its coming when its coming"
yes, many players are asking for "when codex", but i dont think thats the main issue here, its the fact of absolutely no ork related articles from GW that isnt imperial knight spank or showing off a fans collection. many of us are asking for articles to help "HYPE" us up, and when GW is so unwilling to do any of that it makes us think they are trying to downplay the release, and many will assume thats because the codex is going to be crap. the silence is disturbing.

So because GW didn't hype tyranids when next codex was IG it was disturbing?

They don't hype codex that's not next one out. What is so hard about that?

did you read this part of my post

" now admittedly in the past when they announced 2 dexes the articles would start relatively close to each other, so now that SW are finally getting articles im expecting ork stuff soon too. "

did i say we should be getting articles at the same time? nope, im just expecting them soon. that could be days,weeks but at the most a month, though i would get agitated if they waited for another month to put out any articles.

maybe you should've read the whole post of mine, your inability to try to understand what i was saying is starting to make you seem more and more like a troll just waiting to punch into your keyboard "WAAAGH, ORK PLAYERS ARE A BUNCH OF UNREASONABLE WIIIIIIIHNERS!!!"

I've come to realize it doesn't really matter how rational a reaction is to a marketing situation. The whole point of marketing is to generate positive emotion which can lead to purchases, not to generate rational thought. So if you're currently generating negative emotion among the long time customers for a given product line things need reevaluating.

And the thing is, it really would be easy for GW to do this. As soon as the codex has gone to the printer and is not going to be changed further, an article every now and again showing off a tiny tiny element would be super easy to do.

According to their financial reports, their warhammer community site approach works, so it is really strange that the approach that was very successful for the way all the various 40k armies and AoS armies have been previewed has not been applied to the Orks and Space Wolves codex announcements.

It really would take next to no effort, and be a proven successful thing to do, to put out a single article in both June and July about the new Ork and Space Wolf codexes.

One stratagem. One unit profile. One ability for like goffs or something. The article needs to contain such a small amount of content.

One of the greatest strengths of 40k as a product is that it invites the customer to participate in the larger world of the 40k universe. GW should have learned by now that the Kirby dark years of shrinking revenue where you don't ever engage with your customer base was a bad idea. And if it's a bad idea for your entire customer base, it's probably a bad idea for a subset of your customer base.

 frozenwastes wrote:
I've come to realize it doesn't really matter how rational a reaction is to a marketing situation. The whole point of marketing is to generate positive emotion which can lead to purchases, not to generate rational thought. So if you're currently generating negative emotion among the long time customers for a given product line things need reevaluating.

i like your reasoning, exalt for you

 frozenwastes wrote:
I've come to realize it doesn't really matter how rational a reaction is to a marketing situation. The whole point of marketing is to generate positive emotion which can lead to purchases, not to generate rational thought. So if you're currently generating negative emotion among the long time customers for a given product line things need reevaluating.

And the thing is, it really would be easy for GW to do this. As soon as the codex has gone to the printer and is not going to be changed further, an article every now and again showing off a tiny tiny element would be super easy to do.

According to their financial reports, their warhammer community site approach works, so it is really strange that the approach that was very successful for the way all the various 40k armies and AoS armies have been previewed has not been applied to the Orks and Space Wolves codex announcements.

It really would take next to no effort, and be a proven successful thing to do, to put out a single article in both June and July about the new Ork and Space Wolf codexes.

One stratagem. One unit profile. One ability for like goffs or something. The article needs to contain such a small amount of content.

One of the greatest strengths of 40k as a product is that it invites the customer to participate in the larger world of the 40k universe. GW should have learned by now that the Kirby dark years of shrinking revenue where you don't ever engage with your customer base was a bad idea. And if it's a bad idea for your entire customer base, it's probably a bad idea for a subset of your customer base.

Great post. A million times this.

 frozenwastes wrote:

According to their financial reports, their warhammer community site approach works, so it is really strange that the approach that was very successful for the way all the various 40k armies and AoS armies have been previewed has not been applied to the Orks and Space Wolves codex announcements.

You realize right that was for new edition? Which funny that GW did also on 40k side...Including orks.

GW has done nothing less for orks than what they have done with other races. And still players whine "bohoo we didn't get more than what others got"

tneva82 wrote:
GW has done nothing less for orks than what they have done with other races. And still players whine "bohoo we didn't get more than what others got"

it is 100% irrelevant that you think players are whining. Or that they are wrong in their assessment of what orks and space wolves have had published about them between the announcing of their codex and the release of it.

It means less than nothing.

The point of marketing is to generate positive emotion so if you announce a codex and then go dark for a couple months, that's a marketing failure.

You realize right that was for new edition? Which funny that GW did also on 40k side...Including orks.

As well, you're also wrong. The recent AoS releases are not just the new edition. Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth Deepkin were not a new edition launch. They got some teasers, a new announcement and then articles with real content. Just like many, many of the 40k armies. Orks and Space Wolves? Not so much. Announce them in June and then... crickets chirping. No other codeces had that approach. They all got articles and previews and videos stuff. Finally we have some Space Wolf stuff, but Orks... still crickets chirping.

And there's just no need for it. GW has clearly stated in their financial report that engaging with their customers works and is now their priority. So there is no reason at all to justify not engaging with the ork subset of the customers.

This isn't ork players being unreasonable or whining, this is GW not working a plan that they know works and that they have said they are committed to in their financial reports. I think it's because of available employee time, but that doesn't actually matter to people who are waiting to participate in the larger 40k universe in the form of orks and then... silence is all they get.

--

Yeah it’s not though, is it? It’s just a vocal minority pissing and moaning about an imaginary bias against Orks; short of giving them the moon on a fething stick they’re never going to be happy, so there’s very little GW can do to placate them. I suspect the reasons there’s little in the way of visible enthusiasm for Orks at the moment is that every time the subject comes up, it gets hijacked by the usual suspects dragging the discussion into the realms of unrelenting negativity, and people can’t be arsed listening to the same tired complaints getting rehashed over and over again.

 frozenwastes wrote:

As well, you're also wrong. The recent AoS releases are not just the new edition. Daughters of Khaine and Idoneth Deepkin were not a new edition launch. They got some teasers, a new announcement and then articles with real content. Just like many, many of the 40k armies. Orks and Space Wolves? Not so much. Announce them in June and then... crickets chirping. No other codeces had that approach. They all got articles and previews and videos stuff. Finally we have some Space Wolf stuff, but Orks... still crickets chirping.

Ah yeah those that come FOR NEXT CODEX IN LINE!

Well gee duh no wonder orks haven't got them BECAUSE THEY AREN'T NEXT IN LINE! You didn't see tyranid teasers when ig codex was next either.

Of course GW could have teased wolves at june. of course then it would have been months of no teasing before release. That would btw kill the hype in advance. It's more effective to tease shortly before release. Which is why GW puts teasers shortly before release and not months ago. Pattern they, funny that, continue now as well with wolf teasers starting SHORTLY BEFORE THE CODEX.

Pattern that has, funny that, continued past year, they are following in same style with wolves and orks.

ONLY difference is there was gap due to AOS 2nd ed, kill team and AT but anybody thinking GW would release codex at the same time as those is drinking something lot stronger than beer.

And there's just no need for it. GW has clearly stated in their financial report that engaging with their customers works and is now their priority. So there is no reason at all to justify not engaging with the ork subset of the customers.

This isn't ork players whining, this is GW not universally applying a marketing plan that they know works. It's entirely possible the result of a shortage of employee time. They've also announced they are hiring more people. So maybe this sort of announce something and then do nothing won't happen again.

Ah yes. GW not giving orks more than they have given all other races thorough year is GW being bad.

Funny thing though 8th ed sales are going up. Maybe their marketing plan THEY ARE FOLLOWING WITH WOLVES AND ORKS TO THE DOT is actually working?

tneva82 wrote:

Ah yeah those that come FOR NEXT CODEX IN LINE!

Well gee duh no wonder orks haven't got them BECAUSE THEY AREN'T NEXT IN LINE! You didn't see tyranid teasers when ig codex was next either.

Shouting it in capital letters is silly. Tyranids did not get announced followed by two months of silence. Neither did IG.

Pattern they, funny that, continue now as well with wolf teasers starting SHORTLY BEFORE THE CODEX.

Pattern that has, funny that, continued past year, they are following in same style with wolves and orks.

ONLY difference is there was gap due to AOS 2nd ed, kill team and AT but anybody thinking GW would release codex at the same time as those is drinking something lot stronger than beer.

This is exactly the problem. If you have a pattern of announcement --> previews --> preorder being a short amount of time and then you know you have three other games (AT, KT and AoS2) you need to take that into consideration.

One article. One. That's all it would have taken.

Ah yes. GW not giving orks more than they have given all other races thorough year is GW being bad.

How in the world is GW not saying nothing given more than for other armies? One article. That's it. That's all it would have taken to gut this negativity before it cropped up.

Stop putting this on the disappointed customers. It's not their job to be positive. it's GW job to tell their customers about the products they might want to buy and if there's a gap coming up because of other releases, maybe take that into consideration.

Funny thing though 8th ed sales are going up. Maybe their marketing plan THEY ARE FOLLOWING WITH WOLVES AND ORKS TO THE DOT is actually working?

The marketing plan that has worked is one where there is not months of silence. Months of silence is the old way GW operated.

Do I think Space Wolves and Orks in the end will be a success for GW? Yes. But that doesn't mean they didn't mess up here. They should have done with Space Wolves and Orks what they did with the other armies. Timely warhammer community articles. And if there's a gap caused by other releases, compensate for it.

 frozenwastes wrote:

This doesn't make any sense and shouting it in capital letters won't change that. Tyranids did not get announced followed by two months of silence. Neither did IG.

Yes. So in that sense it's the WOLVES who have more to complain. But of course alternative was teasers at june, then nothing. They won't release codex alongside other big releases.

This is exactly the problem. If you have a pattern of announcement --> previews --> preorder being a short amount of time and then you know you have three other games (AT, KT and AoS2) you need to take that into consideration.

Ah yes it would have been better not to release next codexes until ~early august yes?

Well guess that could have worked. Then wolves could have got first teasers quickly.

Of course then entitled ork players would have been demanding to know what codexes are next.

GW can never satisfy some ork players.

Stop putting this on the disappointed customers. It's not their job to be positive. it's GW job to tell their customers about the products they might want to buy and if there's a gap coming up because of other releases, maybe take that into consideration.

They gave us advance view what next codexes are. Of course they could have held that back but not sure how that would have made things any better...We would have learned up wolves&orks are next like in past 2 weeks with nothing on june and july.

There is simply a large difference between Index armies and Codex armies in terms of game play experience. To say nothing about the fiction, art and pictures of painted models that are in a Codex but not an Index. Strength of the armies aside, a codex has all sorts of interesting things like stratagems and sub faction abilities and relics and the like. The longer a subset of your player base does not have access to this, the longer they don't have access to the full vision for the edition.

So if you're going to do that you need to be really careful about not also failing to engage with that subset of the customer base. This isn't the time to go dark and not say anything after announcing a codex.

In fact, it's the worst possible time to say nothing. If you're going to make players wait the longest for a codex (and some army has to be the last one) then you need to make sure that subset of the customer base is engaged with properly.

Its it true that there's a subset of the ork players that are extra negative? That can be true as well. But then why make things worse with total silence? We've seen over the years that a negative minority voice can be very powerful in online communities. It would be stupid to feed into the negativity with an extended period of silence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

They gave us advance view what next codexes are. Of course they could have held that back but not sure how that would have made things any better...We would have learned up wolves&orks are next like in past 2 weeks with nothing on june and july.

GW is not trapped between choosing to tell people Space Wolves and Orks are next and saying nothing. That's a false dichotomy. They have many many options and I think I've already suggested the best one. It's the best because it would have given Space Wolf and Ork players something real to be excited about and would have taken very, very little effort.

One article for Space Wolves in July. One for Orks. And possibly even GSC assuming there's something finalized on that front as well. Each previewing 2-3 rules elements from the new codex.

That's all it would have taken for the Ork subset of the player base to be far more positive and excited about the upcoming codex product.

Going forward I happen to believe that the marketing content that will come up in the future will work. Space Wolves and Orks will sell well as a result of the warhammer community articles, facebook posts, youtube vidoes and so on. It's going to work. And for Genestealer Cult.

But nothing about that future success doesn't mean it wasn't stupid to have a summer of silence on those armies. When you've asked a portion of your player base (orks, space wolves and GSC players) to settle for less than the full vision of the edition (the codex has that vision for each army, the index does not) for longer than everyone else you need to take that into consideration when planning your customer engagement. And then doubly so if you're also going to have a delay for three very large product launches like KT, AoS2 and AT.

Any Ork, Space Wolf or GSC player that saw the short distance between previously announced codexes, their previews and the release of the codex and then has been frustrated by their army getting months of silence isn't being a whiner. If you announce a codex is next and then it comes out really soon and then announce another and it's months of silence, people are justified in having a WTF? reaction.

I played my last WAAAGH!!! a long time ago now. Tbh, I am loosing the interest in one of the most iconic factions out there.
I just burned out loosing every game and getting frustrated because all those cool looking models don't work and have nothing in the pocket to change that.
Fluffwise they are as tough as it gets. And what happens on the battlefield... ? Just frustrated I tell you. I don't know if I will restart the WAAAGH! when the book comes out.

 Kustomer D wrote:
I played my last WAAAGH!!! a long time ago now. Tbh, I am loosing the interest in one of the most iconic factions out there.
I just burned out loosing every game and getting frustrated because all those cool looking models don't work and have nothing in the pocket to change that.
Fluffwise they are as tough as it gets. And what happens on the battlefield... ? Just frustrated I tell you. I don't know if I will restart the WAAAGH! when the book comes out.

What about if you just read a community article that showed a strategem or two, a relic and maybe a clan ability? A stratagem that let an ork unit deploy from a trukk after it moves? Or some crazy "push the big red button!" ability? Any one of a million zany things that orks could have in stratagems and abilities?

Would this frustration and uncertainty about playing orks in the future be reassessed if you would be given a single solitary piece of information about something new?

Or is it too little too late now?

As for myself, I think the Ork codex is going to have all that same sort of stuff that's in other codexes. So I think I'm going to take advantage of the Ork melancholy and post on some local buy-sell groups and try to score some used orks! If lots of existing players are at a tipping point, maybe I'll be able to get some orks for 75-80% off retail or something.

 Nazrak wrote:
Yeah it’s not though, is it? It’s just a vocal minority pissing and moaning about an imaginary bias against Orks; short of giving them the moon on a fething stick they’re never going to be happy, so there’s very little GW can do to placate them. I suspect the reasons there’s little in the way of visible enthusiasm for Orks at the moment is that every time the subject comes up, it gets hijacked by the usual suspects dragging the discussion into the realms of unrelenting negativity, and people can’t be arsed listening to the same tired complaints getting rehashed over and over again.

Except that is a load of bull. You know it. I know it. Ork players were over the moon when our codex was announced. I think its one of the most 'liked' posts on their Facebook page.

Then months of silence with nothing except 'its coming soon lol'. Well I don't consider 3 months 'soon' given the rate of other codex releases. Then there's the one dimensional play style that wasn't helped by Chapter Approved. Add the treatment of past editions.

Customers (which is what we are, by the way) can only take so much. No Ork player anywhere believes GW hates Orks. What a stupid notion. Many believe that they don't value our player base in comparison to others. Many believe they simply don't know what to do with the faction. Others believe they simply do whatever they believe will maximise their profits.

Stop attacking customers. We have a right to express our discontent. We also have a right to leave the game. This isn't the fault of the customer, its a feth up by GW.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

We also have a right to leave the game.

Nobody’s trying to stop you. Off you pop then.

I've come to realize it doesn't really matter how rational a reaction is to a marketing situation. The whole point of marketing is to generate positive emotion which can lead to purchases, not to generate rational thought. So if you're currently generating negative emotion among the long time customers for a given product line things need reevaluating.

And the thing is, it really would be easy for GW to do this. As soon as the codex has gone to the printer and is not going to be changed further, an article every now and again showing off a tiny tiny element would be super easy to do.

According to their financial reports, their warhammer community site approach works, so it is really strange that the approach that was very successful for the way all the various 40k armies and AoS armies have been previewed has not been applied to the Orks and Space Wolves codex announcements.

It really would take next to no effort, and be a proven successful thing to do, to put out a single article in both June and July about the new Ork and Space Wolf codexes.

One stratagem. One unit profile. One ability for like goffs or something. The article needs to contain such a small amount of content.

One of the greatest strengths of 40k as a product is that it invites the customer to participate in the larger world of the 40k universe. GW should have learned by now that the Kirby dark years of shrinking revenue where you don't ever engage with your customer base was a bad idea. And if it's a bad idea for your entire customer base, it's probably a bad idea for a subset of your customer base.

Stop talking sense FFS.

 Nazrak wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

We also have a right to leave the game.

Nobody’s trying to stop you. Off you pop then.

Great response. Leave the thread. Obvious troll is obvious.

GW has a huge list of podcasters and youtube creators and bloggers that they already send product to in advance so people can make content about it around release time.

GW could take little images from the new codex like how they show off a single stratagem or ability in a little text box and send a smattering of Space Wolf, GSC and Ork rules to say 20 of these content creators. 6 or 7 snippets for each of the three codex books.

Within 24 hours there would be so much social media buzz. They'd get shared and reposted and tweeted and spread all over. Youtube speculation videos about how the new rule might work with the army, blog posts, forum and reddit threads, twitter threads. So much content would pop up so fast.

There are just so many ways GW could create buzz with little or no effort. Months of silence just makes no sense. If the Warhammer facebook, live, TV and community teams are super busy right now, just have someone else do the content creation for you. They already do it by sending these people physical product to show off for when preorders go up, why not tiny snippets of information? The content creators obviously have to agree to certain terms and conditions to get the physical product early (see Tabletop Minions video on Kill Team mentioning when he was allowed to start showing the product) so they could have them agree to only talk about the info in certain ways. As long as it was remotely reasonable, they could leverage the existing content creators and not lose control of the message.

When there are so many things GW could have done to get even the tiny amount of information needed out there, I can't really blame any Space Wolf, Ork or GSC player for getting to the end of their patience with playing such a late recipient of a codex. And certainly would never think to tell anyone to leave the hobby if they're not happy.

That's also the last thing GW wants. Since Rountree took over they started talking about how to get lapsed customers back. Losing existing ones is not their goal. During the Kirby years they were happy to lose customers as long as the ones that stayed paid more and more for the same or worse product. That's not how GW is operating now.

As a long Time ork fan, when I started around the tail end of Rogue Trader, the orks we’re bursting with character and comedy and ideas. From 3rd ed on they lost the joy and creativity and became a mob of slugga boyz with a power klaw nob and not much else, but I kept at it as beautiful new kits came out.

But, the rules were never there for them - the Imperial Knight was a lord of war, while the Gorkanought could be popped by a five point Melta gun. My hordes kept having to get more and more hordey until my turns took forever. Kustom wagonz And buggies gave way to 100 ork green tides that I just pushed slowly like an avalanche. No klanz, no character; no Armageddon, just Blackreach.

So, I did what I do - I sold them all and started an army that still captures my imagination. But, Boss Oggthrok still lurks in my collection, in case the day comes when Orks are interesting narratively or in game terms again. Until then, there’s always kill team!

Oggthrok wrote:
As a long Time ork fan, when I started around the tail end of Rogue Trader, the orks we’re bursting with character and comedy and ideas. From 3rd ed on they lost the joy and creativity and became a mob of slugga boyz with a power klaw nob and not much else, but I kept at it as beautiful new kits came out.

But, the rules were never there for them - the Imperial Knight was a lord of war, while the Gorkanought could be popped by a five point Melta gun. My hordes kept having to get more and more hordey until my turns took forever. Kustom wagonz And buggies gave way to 100 ork green tides that I just pushed slowly like an avalanche. No klanz, no character; no Armageddon, just Blackreach.

So, I did what I do - I sold them all and started an army that still captures my imagination. But, Boss Oggthrok still lurks in my collection, in case the day comes when Orks are interesting narratively or in game terms again. Until then, there’s always kill team!

I never sold my orks, but otherwise i agree to 100%

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Many believe that they don't value our player base in comparison to others.

As an outsider looking in, they seem to get the same kind of treatment as most other core non-marine factions - nids, necrons, DE, tau, daemons, guard, etc.
The six year wait between their last two (4e/7e) books was long but not exactly unusual. Eldar 4e-6e was 7 years, as were Tau, DE were 6, etc. Wasn't exactly a spectacular release but they got their giant models, plastics, campaign books, interim model releases for aeronautica, and so on.

But I suppose the other non-core factions had some period of time where they were on top while orks were coasting the whole way through. I just hope we don't get this same drama when GW drops back to 2-4 year release cycles.

A.T. wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Many believe that they don't value our player base in comparison to others.

As an outsider looking in, they seem to get the same kind of treatment as most other core non-marine factions - nids, necrons, DE, tau, daemons, guard, etc.
The six year wait between their last two (4e/7e) books was long but not exactly unusual. Eldar 4e-6e was 7 years, as were Tau, DE were 6, etc. Wasn't exactly a spectacular release but they got their giant models, plastics, campaign books, interim model releases for aeronautica, and so on.

But I suppose the other non-core factions had some period of time where they were on top while orks were coasting the whole way through. I just hope we don't get this same drama when GW drops back to 2-4 year release cycles.

Yeah, I think this is fair. Orks have arguably had a bit of a rough ride more recently than some others, but the idea some people seem to be pushing, that GW are pursuing some sort of neglectful hate campaign against Orks and those who play them, is mental.

I agree. There's no intentional poor behaviour by GW towards ork players. They just let some things slip and didn't make sure they did the same thing for those waiting the longest for the codexes as they did for other armies. The delay caused by the big three summer releases was not some slight towards ork players, but just something they didn't compensate for with some extra articles or social media posts or something.

 Nazrak wrote:
but the idea some people seem to be pushing, that GW are pursuing some sort of neglectful hate campaign against Orks and those who play them, is mental.

absolutely, orks have a poor hand at the moment, but thats not scared me away form things in the past. It's the autistic screeching from a VERY vocal minority of players making up a very large majority of all conversation thats got me retreating. The absolute worst thing thats happened to orks in the last 20 years, are the faultfinders changing the oppinion or ork players from Fun loving and pleasant to Grating and spiteful.

A.T. wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Many believe that they don't value our player base in comparison to others.

As an outsider looking in, they seem to get the same kind of treatment as most other core non-marine factions - nids, necrons, DE, tau, daemons, guard, etc.
The six year wait between their last two (4e/7e) books was long but not exactly unusual. Eldar 4e-6e was 7 years, as were Tau, DE were 6, etc. Wasn't exactly a spectacular release but they got their giant models, plastics, campaign books, interim model releases for aeronautica, and so on.

But I suppose the other non-core factions had some period of time where they were on top while orks were coasting the whole way through. I just hope we don't get this same drama when GW drops back to 2-4 year release cycles.

Yea I completely agree. I don't subscribe to the 'GW hates Orks/Ork players'. I don't think anyone does, even the most salty Ork fan (someone ask Semper ).

I think the general consensus is that GW doesn't know what to do with Orks so tends to make mistakes with them. Or that our lack of a 'champion' in the development team hurts us.

My personal opinion stems back to GW acting like any business. They must have believed that to release the ork and space wolf codexes earlier would reduce possible AOS 2.0, KillTeam and Adeptus Titanicus revenue. So they took a calculated risk and held back. I believe they thought the negative impact of making SW and Ork players wait would be offset by revenue from those games previously mentioned. Perhaps they were correct, I don't have their sales figures so I can't answer that one. I do know that I have ceased all spending since the Ork codex was announced. I know others have done the same. I know there is a lot of negative publicity with all of the specialist games at the moment because players of those factions without codexes are quick to complain. I know some Ork and Space Wolf players have left the game, some temporarily, some not.

E

 Nazrak wrote:
but the idea some people seem to be pushing, that GW are pursuing some sort of neglectful hate campaign against Orks and those who play them, is mental.

Who's pushing this? Where has anyone said it? It seems to have only come from you so far in this thread?

E 2

 davou wrote:

absolutely, orks have a poor hand at the moment, but thats not scared me away form things in the past. It's the autistic screeching from a VERY vocal minority of players making up a very large majority of all conversation thats got me retreating. The absolute worst thing thats happened to orks in the last 20 years, are the faultfinders changing the oppinion or ork players from Fun loving and pleasant to Grating and spiteful.

Again, where are you getting this autistic screeching from? Get some quotes and show us all these Ork players who act as you claim?

 Jidmah wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
...and while Orks weren't doing well, it's not maliciousness that an army sucks, it's a misguided attempt to do what they think will be fun only to have it bite them in the ass when it turns out the community doesn't play the army that way.

I disagree, 7th edition ork codex and supplement were clearly not a failed attempt at making orks fun.

Every single model that has been somewhat decent in the old codex got a major nerf (lootaz, kanz, battelwagons, shoota boyz, etc...), many rules were clearly never used once in a playtest(Rolling 63 shots for flash gits one at a time, mandatory deep striking for 46-91 models, Thrakka rolling three additional warlord traits from a table which had only two that had any effect on him, etc, etc...) and supplement rules which were all downside, with every single formation inside forcing you to buy more models than you could reasonably field in 5th/6th.

So I'd say its somewhere between the malice of trying to force us into buying new models and not giving a grot's ass about the quality of what they were delivering.

That said, I agree with all your other points, there is no reason for so many ork players to act the way they do. The codex will come around.

I feel like you're forgetting to employ Hanlon's Razor on the actions of the studio: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

Save for Kirby (who was on his way out during 7th) GW doesn't have a history of outright malice with it's customers. Bad design choices made through a lens of a rather unique testing environment and the tenancy to smooth out balance issues with the subtly of a thunder hammer to the codex lead to some poor choices in the past, but I highly doubt it was anywhere as close to the malicious sales grabbing approach you claim.

Orks actually are solid, but it's logistically difficult to play a 6 turn game with Green Tide. If you can't get 6 turns in, you absolutely have to go undefeated to place well, because your scores will be too low. This is in part why people aren't playing Orks. Also they are hard-countered by imperial guard and eldar. Go to any tournament in a competitive area and you will face one or both of those armies.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
So it's basically people getting self-hyped and then getting mad because GW is doing exactly what they should be doing and not pandering to them specially?

I mean, I'm not trying to be cruel here, I know the folly of getting on the hype train more times than I should have in the past, but I don't really see how any of this is GW's fault. "You guys are next" isn't a free pass to get leaks or news early, it's a notification that you're in the chute for the next codex releases and not much more. All this salt about not being told something you're not even supposed to be told about yet just reeks of self-entitlement to be honest.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Which invalidates every post crying about how we don't have info about where the Orks are. Of course we don't have info, they're not coming yet!

Have you joined this thread just to troll Zion? Because that's how it's coming across. Orks and Space Wolves were announced over 75 days ago as the next 2 codexes. Other codex announcements have followed with previews 1-2 weeks later. Do you see the difference there? We've had nothing for over 2 months. No model previews. No rule previews. Nothing.

Trolling? No. Being a bit harsh on some self entitled internet whiners? Definitely. Space Wolves weren't crying about how they hadn't seen anything for their army in the same time and you don't see Sisters players posting daily about how we haven't gotten any new updates about the Sisters update since then either. Only the Orks are crying about how badly GW is treating them and acting like they're owed information that breaks GW's information release cycle.

Seriously, you aren't owed an update until it's time to for you to get your money ready to order the codex. Anything else is just an attitude that makes the entire community look bad and it rightly irks me, and others.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'll also remind you that GW have set themselves up for a fall here, no one else. They claimed they'd get "all codexes in our hands within a year of 8th dropping". They've broken this promise. They also built expectations with their general method of announcing codexes and then previewing after as I mentioned previously. Something else that they have radically changed only for these 2 releases.

Please cite sources for that quote because I'm not remembering it. And if it was true that promise was broken when they said Sisters were coming in 2019. We still need Sisters of Silence and the Inquisition as well with no word that they're even getting actual codexes and you're justifying about being confirmed to be getting updated this year? Have some perspective for feth's sake.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
You've also had some context from Semper (years of awful rules, no updates and general neglect), that you flat out ignored because apparently "Sisters have had it worse". Right. SISTERS ARE ALSO GETTING A COMPLETELY REVAMPED MODEL LINE. I think you'd find there would be less Orkish complaints if we had a similar promise.

"Emperor Willing" in 2019 and my entire army is older than most of the Ork line. Heck if the models aren't old enough to drink, they're at least old enough to smoke and vote. I think they need a massive overhaul more than the mostly plastic Ork line. You don't need such a promise because you don't need your all metal army to be turned into a plastic one for the first time in two decades.

And you were promised a codex but want more than anyone else is getting right now: information weeks and months ahead of your actual codex release. If that isn't being self-entitled I don't know what is.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'd fething love to see your reaction if the same thing had happened with Thousand Sons. I would love to hear the amount of whining that would flow from that part of the community.

You mean the army that used to be a single all metal unit and didn't have a way to really be run in a truly fluffy manner until they got their army list in 7th? Gee it's like you have some kind of salt about neglected armies and units being made of metal being updated into plastic.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Stop trolling this thread, if you have nothing constructive to add and just want to insult Ork players, you don't belong here.

I came here trying to seriously understand where the whining is coming from and frankly it comes right out of the backend of a grot as far as I've seen. If anything doesn't belong it's the attitude that Ork players are "owed" information long before their release. You can claim I'm trolling but I am being quite honest and direct with every post I've made. Read this thread again, I didn't start to point out the fallacy the Ork players are using as a crutch in their chief complaint about "no information" until I confirmed that it was exactly what it was: a bunch of Squig crap being paraded around as the moral high ground.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

You must have missed all those new GSC model previews??

Which has clearly been stated to be unrelated to a codex release. It's tied into the Fang and Claw box instead.