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 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
You did say otherwise, you said the unequivocally don't feel fear. "Bravery" is a pretty null and void concept in the Space Marine's psyche" your quote. That you are arguing in the face of evidence and are changing your argument, means I can no longer argue with you.

You're confusing what they do in action with what they feel inside while doing it. I never said what they do in action in and of itself cannot be considered brave, especially looking at it from a mortal man's perspective (which is 95% of all lore in the setting). So again, Astartes frames of reference for things, such as the concepts of "fear" and "bravery", are so disconnected with our own they may as well be alien to them. That was the point of my quote. Context matters. Pull words from my posts and isolate them to try and give them different meaning all you want, it ain't gonna help your argument against mine. Marines don't compute charging in with 10-to-1 odds as a brave thing to do, as non-Astartes would, they simply do it without even thinking about it in those terms. While a Guardsman would have to steel themselves, gulp, take a deep breath, steady their nerves, then charge in, Astartes are already halfway down the hill - not having to do any of that.

That was one of the shortest-lived "I'm done"'s I've seen in quite a while. Welcome back, I guess?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

You called my reasoning and then tried to call it quits, give me a break. I genuinely wanted to call it quits, I did it without insulting you, being magnanimous.

The fact that you A) ignored the chance to do so when I first offered it, and then B) returned to the argument again after saying you were done in less time than it took for me to edit typos in my post speaks volumes against your supposed integrity, I'm afraid.

Andykp wrote:
Old school pius all the way. If not then any guardian who doesn’t run away in soiled trousers.

Real answer, anyone who says female marines should exists.

Why because the ones that say female marines shouldn't exist are called sexist and misogynistic, I think its more brave to say the shouldn't exist. I collect Sisters of Battle and think they are utterly badass and yet I've been called all the names under the sun for not wanting marines changed.

On the marine argument, “they shall know no fear”. That’s sums it up really. If they ain’t scared they aren’t showing big “balls”. Being scared and carrying on. thats balls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Old school pius all the way. If not then any guardian who doesn’t run away in soiled trousers.

Real answer, anyone who says female marines should exists.

Why because the ones that say female marines shouldn't exist are called sexist and misogynistic, I think its more brave to say the shouldn't exist.

Leave it I was joking. Your thread will get closed.

Andykp wrote:
On the marine argument, “they shall know no fear”. That’s sums it up really. If they ain’t scared they aren’t showing big “balls”. Being scared and carrying on. thats balls.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Old school pius all the way. If not then any guardian who doesn’t run away in soiled trousers.

Real answer, anyone who says female marines should exists.

Why because the ones that say female marines shouldn't exist are called sexist and misogynistic, I think its more brave to say the shouldn't exist.

Leave it I was joking. Your thread will get closed.

Cool.

I meant what I said about the whole know no fear thing. Average human standing up to an ORK is braver than marine who is programmed not to be scared doing the same.

Andykp wrote:
I meant what I said about the whole know no fear thing. Average human standing up to an ORK is braver than marine who is programmed not to be scared doing the same.

Yeah though the difference to me isn't that big, its just the difference on one having a fight or flight response and the other not. Humans are less functional when it comes to fear but they both have the same on the line, bravery is more to do with sacrifice to me. I mean look at commissars, also trained to not give in to fear, obviously not to the same extent though. Humans decide to sacrifice themselves before the fear kicks in. If they are fighting Astartes, they are already scared, the decision to charge one is a choice of sacrifice not fear, granted they feel the fear up until they are killed, but they did it not because they are scared, they did it in spite of being scared.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^thats a pretty good case, actually. Abbaddon might be the most competent and ambitious character in 40k.

yeah I'
ll second that. Abbaddon wins for sure.

Rather than jump on the nitpick train over what constitutes fearless, I will play along with the intent of this thread...




Captain Cortez of the Crimson Fists Space Marines.

If all Space Marines are truly fearless, they all should be able to talk gak to their Primarch, right?

Sigismund, most noble of all Imperial Fists, passed the buck on commanding a fleet when he knew it would end in his death. Of course, he was an Imperial Fist, so being a little bitch is in line with his geneseed, but Marines clearly have some fears and weaknesses- even the "greatest" of them.

 EmpNortonII wrote:
If all Space Marines are truly fearless, they all should be able to talk gak to their Primarch, right?

Sigismund, most noble of all Imperial Fists, passed the buck on commanding a fleet when he knew it would end in his death. Of course, he was an Imperial Fist, so being a little bitch is in line with his geneseed, but Marines clearly have some fears and weaknesses- even the "greatest" of them.

Exactly, there are many accounts of Astartes saying that in their Primarchs presence they feel 'fear' or what could be considered as fear.

pm713 wrote:
Does that count the Crusade retcons?

It must do - prior to them, he was easily the most incompetent character in 40k.

Incompetent, perhaps. But the only mortal in all of existence with the "notice" of all 4 of the main chaos gods?

His primary goal, is to eliminate essentially a 5th god... that murdered his *hypothetically* superior Primarch father.

He is literally at the top of all hit-lists in the Imperium, the single "most wanted" man in the galaxy, of the single most powerful government in the Galaxy.

And he's like, "Nah, I don't want to be a Daemon Prince. I want to ice that zombie's ass as a mortal. Maybe after that I'll Daemon up. Come at me, Imperium!"

I think it's harder to find anyone more the Balisarius Cawl. Gulliman had the rank, authority, and surety to order super-marines (even after the previous debacles), but Cawl was the one who actually had to do it. He didn't get to hide in suspension either - he was an 'active' member of the Mechanicum for thousands of years - risking exposure and exterminatus every year as he siphoned Imperial resources for heresy. The sheer scope is mind boggling -

"What? These hundred troopships and manfactoriums? They are making ...stuff. Totally non-heretical stuff. Stuff no one can see or use. By the way - I need a few thousand more young boys."

The best part is he had no conceivable timeline for when he could release his creations - there was no guarantee that Gulliman would ever come back.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think it's harder to find anyone more the Balisarius Cawl. Gulliman had the rank, authority, and surety to order super-marines (even after the previous debacles), but Cawl was the one who actually had to do it. He didn't get to hide in suspension either - he was an 'active' member of the Mechanicum for thousands of years - risking exposure and exterminatus every year as he siphoned Imperial resources for heresy. The sheer scope is mind boggling -

"What? These hundred troopships and manfactoriums? They are making ...stuff. Totally non-heretical stuff. Stuff no one can see or use. By the way - I need a few thousand more young boys."

The best part is he had no conceivable timeline for when he could release his creations - there was no guarantee that Gulliman would ever come back.

Cawl wasn't the first to be a rebel in the Mechanicum, lots of forge masters and mistresses broke the rules in the pursuit of new technologies like Koriel Zeth with the Akashic-reader. Cawl isn't special at all.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Incompetent, perhaps. But the only mortal in all of existence with the "notice" of all 4 of the main chaos gods?

His primary goal, is to eliminate essentially a 5th god... that murdered his *hypothetically* superior Primarch father.

He is literally at the top of all hit-lists in the Imperium, the single "most wanted" man in the galaxy, of the single most powerful government in the Galaxy.

And he's like, "Nah, I don't want to be a Daemon Prince. I want to ice that zombie's ass as a mortal. Maybe after that I'll Daemon up. Come at me, Imperium!"

Abaddon is their tool. Same as Horus.

Bravery is not the absence of fear. It is acting in spite of it.

In other words... Pious. The man was a Perpetual-in other words, he had a LONG life ahead of him. And he was old enough to know that, yeah, if anyone can kill him for good, it would be someone capable of standing up to the Emperor.

And what does this ballsy bastard do? He stands right the feth up to Horus and says "Not today."

Honorary shout-out to any guardsmen who happen to give their lives to save comrades, especially in the face of Dark Eldar (assuming they know-less brave if they don't know, though still brave).

 JNAProductions wrote:
Bravery is not the absence of fear. It is acting in spite of it.

In other words... Pious. The man was a Perpetual-in other words, he had a LONG life ahead of him. And he was old enough to know that, yeah, if anyone can kill him for good, it would be someone capable of standing up to the Emperor.

And what does this ballsy bastard do? He stands right the feth up to Horus and says "Not today."

Honorary shout-out to any guardsmen who happen to give their lives to save comrades, especially in the face of Dark Eldar (assuming they know-less brave if they don't know, though still brave).

I already mention Pious in the OP.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Bravery is not the absence of fear. It is acting in spite of it.

In other words... Pious. The man was a Perpetual-in other words, he had a LONG life ahead of him. And he was old enough to know that, yeah, if anyone can kill him for good, it would be someone capable of standing up to the Emperor.

And what does this ballsy bastard do? He stands right the feth up to Horus and says "Not today."

Honorary shout-out to any guardsmen who happen to give their lives to save comrades, especially in the face of Dark Eldar (assuming they know-less brave if they don't know, though still brave).

I already mention Pious in the OP.

Yes, and he deserves to be mentioned again. Because he's THAT DAMN BALLSY.

There's a Necron Lord with one ball and it's pretty big.

I mean, not like a direct comparison (I checked against mine) but in terms of scale it's pretty big. Enough that if mine looked like that I'd go to the doctor.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
There's a Necron Lord with one ball and it's pretty big.

I mean, not like a direct comparison (I checked against mine) but in terms of scale it's pretty big. Enough that if mine looked like that I'd go to the doctor.

Trazyn the Infinite has already stolen the biggest balls in 40k, so I guess that's game over.

/endthread

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

 ChargerIIC wrote:
I think it's harder to find anyone more the Balisarius Cawl. Gulliman had the rank, authority, and surety to order super-marines (even after the previous debacles), but Cawl was the one who actually had to do it. He didn't get to hide in suspension either - he was an 'active' member of the Mechanicum for thousands of years - risking exposure and exterminatus every year as he siphoned Imperial resources for heresy. The sheer scope is mind boggling -

"What? These hundred troopships and manfactoriums? They are making ...stuff. Totally non-heretical stuff. Stuff no one can see or use. By the way - I need a few thousand more young boys."

The best part is he had no conceivable timeline for when he could release his creations - there was no guarantee that Gulliman would ever come back.

Cawl wasn't the first to be a rebel in the Mechanicum, lots of forge masters and mistresses broke the rules in the pursuit of new technologies like Koriel Zeth with the Akashic-reader. Cawl isn't special at all.

"not being the first" doesn't change things Del, what Cawl did is still pretty Ballsy... in fact I'd say given that others had commited tek heresy before hand and Cawl saw first hand what the concequences where makes him MORE ballsy not less. it's easy to be fearless when the concequences are purely academic, when when you just saw tim down the street get killed in a horrifc fashion for doing something less bad then what you're doing....

Sevatar deserves a mention

Curze: "I did what I had to do , there was no other way"

Sevatar: "What other ways did you try?"

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Kharn would be my number one. Always fights insurmountable foes by himself. Took on a saint, black Legions bezerkers, Abaddon and a bloodthirster all by himself, even getting the bloodthirster to praise him, though I would concede that he may be more insane than brave lol. But my 2nd is either the obvious guardsmen that stood in-between the Emperor and Horus or the auxilla that stabbed Alpharius in the side puncturing his torso.

No space marine can be called brave.

Courage means conquering your fears and risking yourself despite afraid.

A space marine is physically and mentally unable to feel fear thus they have no need to conquer it.

The average guardsman charging a daemon despite knowing that he will not survive for 10 seconds yet still charges is braver thenthen most space marines can ever imagine.

Space marines still value their lives. The guardsmen that charge that daemon-prince are giving their life up, as is the space marines, not being fearful just makes it easier to function. Its more noble in the case of the guardsmen, but space marines still feel pain etc. They still go through extreme hardship like Alaric on the Daemonworld, where he was nearly broken. They don't feel fear in the same way but they fear in a way that they don't want to die or feel pain. Its impossible for Space Marines to be genuinely fearless if you read the lore, they just aren't effected by the same fight or flight response.

Yes space marines still have the basic instincts of self preservation that all living organisms have but they no longer have a fight or flight response to overcome.

Overcoming the fight or flight response is what makes one brave.

Space marines are superior to normal base line humans in almost everything except courage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Sevatar deserves a mention

Curze: "I did what I had to do , there was no other way"

Sevatar: "What other ways did you try?"

Curze is by far the most shameful coward of the Primarchs

His whole life he has chosen to accept the fate that he saw because he was too cowardly to really try to make a difference.

He COULD have developed Nostromo and he COULD have made things better on his home planet so that everything did'nt fall to pieces the moment he left but he CHOSE to no even try.

And when Sanguinus offered the possibility that not everything is written in stone Curze almost had a mental shutdown.

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Kharn would be my number one. Always fights insurmountable foes by himself. Took on a saint, black Legions bezerkers, Abaddon and a bloodthirster all by himself, even getting the bloodthirster to praise him, though I would concede that he may be more insane than brave lol. But my 2nd is either the obvious guardsmen that stood in-between the Emperor and Horus or the auxilla that stabbed Alpharius in the side puncturing his torso.

No space marine can be called brave.

Courage means conquering your fears and risking yourself despite afraid.

A space marine is physically and mentally unable to feel fear thus they have no need to conquer it.

The average guardsman charging a daemon despite knowing that he will not survive for 10 seconds yet still charges is braver thenthen most space marines can ever imagine.

Space marines still value their lives. The guardsmen that charge that daemon-prince are giving their life up, as is the space marines, not being fearful just makes it easier to function. Its more noble in the case of the guardsmen, but space marines still feel pain etc. They still go through extreme hardship like Alaric on the Daemonworld, where he was nearly broken. They don't feel fear in the same way but they fear in a way that they don't want to die or feel pain. Its impossible for Space Marines to be genuinely fearless if you read the lore, they just aren't effected by the same fight or flight response.

Yes space marines still have the basic instincts of self preservation that all living organisms have but they no longer have a fight or flight response to overcome.

Overcoming the fight or flight response is what makes one brave.

Space marines are superior to normal base line humans in almost everything except courage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Sevatar deserves a mention

Curze: "I did what I had to do , there was no other way"

Sevatar: "What other ways did you try?"

Curze is by far the most shameful coward of the Primarchs

His whole life he has chosen to accept the fate that he saw because he was too cowardly to really try to make a difference.

He COULD have developed Nostromo and he COULD have made things better on his home planet so that everything did'nt fall to pieces the moment he left but he CHOSE to no even try.

And when Sanguinus offered the possibility that not everything is written in stone Curze almost had a mental shutdown.

Overcoming the fight or flight response does not make someone brave, you could overcome the fight or flight response and decide to look for cover and fire from there instead of helping your buddy out who is fighting in close combat with an astartes.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Kharn would be my number one. Always fights insurmountable foes by himself. Took on a saint, black Legions bezerkers, Abaddon and a bloodthirster all by himself, even getting the bloodthirster to praise him, though I would concede that he may be more insane than brave lol. But my 2nd is either the obvious guardsmen that stood in-between the Emperor and Horus or the auxilla that stabbed Alpharius in the side puncturing his torso.

No space marine can be called brave.

Courage means conquering your fears and risking yourself despite afraid.

A space marine is physically and mentally unable to feel fear thus they have no need to conquer it.

The average guardsman charging a daemon despite knowing that he will not survive for 10 seconds yet still charges is braver thenthen most space marines can ever imagine.

Space marines still value their lives. The guardsmen that charge that daemon-prince are giving their life up, as is the space marines, not being fearful just makes it easier to function. Its more noble in the case of the guardsmen, but space marines still feel pain etc. They still go through extreme hardship like Alaric on the Daemonworld, where he was nearly broken. They don't feel fear in the same way but they fear in a way that they don't want to die or feel pain. Its impossible for Space Marines to be genuinely fearless if you read the lore, they just aren't effected by the same fight or flight response.

Yes space marines still have the basic instincts of self preservation that all living organisms have but they no longer have a fight or flight response to overcome.

Overcoming the fight or flight response is what makes one brave.

Space marines are superior to normal base line humans in almost everything except courage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Sevatar deserves a mention

Curze: "I did what I had to do , there was no other way"

Sevatar: "What other ways did you try?"

Curze is by far the most shameful coward of the Primarchs

His whole life he has chosen to accept the fate that he saw because he was too cowardly to really try to make a difference.

He COULD have developed Nostromo and he COULD have made things better on his home planet so that everything did'nt fall to pieces the moment he left but he CHOSE to no even try.

And when Sanguinus offered the possibility that not everything is written in stone Curze almost had a mental shutdown.

Overcoming the fight or flight response does not make someone brave, you could overcome the fight or flight response and decide to look for cover and fire from there instead of helping your buddy out who is fighting in close combat with an astartes.

You know, avoiding the immediate close combat and seeking cover is pretty much the definition of flight? Fleeing something is not simply running screaming from the battlefield.

Astartes, I'm sure experience fear but perhaps not for their personal safety. They may be afraid of letting down their Chapter or failing to complete the mission.

But, from reading a lot of true life history (Anthony Beevor etc) the biggest balls definitely belong to the normal infantryman under artillery or mortar attack. Those guys have balls so big they have to cart them around in a wheelbarrow. Now, imagine being a normal grunt in 40k? Very little armour, horrific enemies, daemons or biotitans lobbing plasma or explosive acid at you? Joe or Joanne Guardsman gets my vote.

EmpNortonII wrote:If all Space Marines are truly fearless, they all should be able to talk gak to their Primarch, right?

Sigismund, most noble of all Imperial Fists, passed the buck on commanding a fleet when he knew it would end in his death. Of course, he was an Imperial Fist, so being a little bitch is in line with his geneseed, but Marines clearly have some fears and weaknesses- even the "greatest" of them.

EmpNorton is Matt Ward, confirmed.

Banville wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Kharn would be my number one. Always fights insurmountable foes by himself. Took on a saint, black Legions bezerkers, Abaddon and a bloodthirster all by himself, even getting the bloodthirster to praise him, though I would concede that he may be more insane than brave lol. But my 2nd is either the obvious guardsmen that stood in-between the Emperor and Horus or the auxilla that stabbed Alpharius in the side puncturing his torso.

No space marine can be called brave.

Courage means conquering your fears and risking yourself despite afraid.

A space marine is physically and mentally unable to feel fear thus they have no need to conquer it.

The average guardsman charging a daemon despite knowing that he will not survive for 10 seconds yet still charges is braver thenthen most space marines can ever imagine.

Space marines still value their lives. The guardsmen that charge that daemon-prince are giving their life up, as is the space marines, not being fearful just makes it easier to function. Its more noble in the case of the guardsmen, but space marines still feel pain etc. They still go through extreme hardship like Alaric on the Daemonworld, where he was nearly broken. They don't feel fear in the same way but they fear in a way that they don't want to die or feel pain. Its impossible for Space Marines to be genuinely fearless if you read the lore, they just aren't effected by the same fight or flight response.

Yes space marines still have the basic instincts of self preservation that all living organisms have but they no longer have a fight or flight response to overcome.

Overcoming the fight or flight response is what makes one brave.

Space marines are superior to normal base line humans in almost everything except courage


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Earth127 wrote:
Sevatar deserves a mention

Curze: "I did what I had to do , there was no other way"

Sevatar: "What other ways did you try?"

Curze is by far the most shameful coward of the Primarchs

His whole life he has chosen to accept the fate that he saw because he was too cowardly to really try to make a difference.

He COULD have developed Nostromo and he COULD have made things better on his home planet so that everything did'nt fall to pieces the moment he left but he CHOSE to no even try.

And when Sanguinus offered the possibility that not everything is written in stone Curze almost had a mental shutdown.

Overcoming the fight or flight response does not make someone brave, you could overcome the fight or flight response and decide to look for cover and fire from there instead of helping your buddy out who is fighting in close combat with an astartes.

You know, avoiding the immediate close combat and seeking cover is pretty much the definition of flight? Fleeing something is not simply running screaming from the battlefield.

Astartes, I'm sure experience fear but perhaps not for their personal safety. They may be afraid of letting down their Chapter or failing to complete the mission.

But, from reading a lot of true life history (Anthony Beevor etc) the biggest balls definitely belong to the normal infantryman under artillery or mortar attack. Those guys have balls so big they have to cart them around in a wheelbarrow. Now, imagine being a normal grunt in 40k? Very little armour, horrific enemies, daemons or biotitans lobbing plasma or explosive acid at you? Joe or Joanne Guardsman gets my vote.

Point is he could get over the fight response to shoot, but it doesn't mean he's going to help take on an Astartes.

godking wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Kharn would be my number one. Always fights insurmountable foes by himself. Took on a saint, black Legions bezerkers, Abaddon and a bloodthirster all by himself, even getting the bloodthirster to praise him, though I would concede that he may be more insane than brave lol. But my 2nd is either the obvious guardsmen that stood in-between the Emperor and Horus or the auxilla that stabbed Alpharius in the side puncturing his torso.

No space marine can be called brave.

Courage means conquering your fears and risking yourself despite afraid.

A space marine is physically and mentally unable to feel fear thus they have no need to conquer it.

The average guardsman charging a daemon despite knowing that he will not survive for 10 seconds yet still charges is braver thenthen most space marines can ever imagine.

I don't think fear is necessary for bravery. All that is necessary is knowing the odds are against you and still choosing to fight anyways. Also in this sense there are no levels of bravery on the battle field except the level of certain death. There is one thing going against the guardsmen though - if he runs away his commissar shoots him. So if he is damned if it does, damned if he don't. A space marine can fall back and no one will judge him - he's just following the codex Astartes.

I’m gonna go with Garviel Loken, if we can use HH characters; guy stood up for what was right against his entire legion, when they were the forefront of the heresy. He was a minnow against a sea of great white sharks, and he stood firm against them. Quite the brass pair on that one.

 Just Tony wrote:

EmpNortonII wrote:If all Space Marines are truly fearless, they all should be able to talk gak to their Primarch, right?

Sigismund, most noble of all Imperial Fists, passed the buck on commanding a fleet when he knew it would end in his death. Of course, he was an Imperial Fist, so being a little bitch is in line with his geneseed, but Marines clearly have some fears and weaknesses- even the "greatest" of them.

EmpNorton is Matt Ward, confirmed.

I will neither confirm nor deny this.