Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
(Also, why is ADB the only BL author who can write properly badass female characters? )
On the subject of Guilliman and the Codex, I got the impression (can't remember from where) that breaking up the legions into chapters wasn't because Guilliman thought it was a good idea, but because that was the compromise he reached with the other High Lords to allow the Astartes to continue to exist at all. Because the other High Lords flat out wanted every single marine executed to prevent another Horus Heresy. And that's why Dorn refused to accept it, because unlike ultimate-pragmatist Guilliman, he never saw any value in compromise. From Dorn's PoV, it reduced the Astartes' military effectiveness for no real purpose, just for stupid PR reasons, so why do it?
A little bit of righteous anger now and then is good, actually. Don't trust a person who never gets angry.
(Also, why is ADB the only BL author who can write properly badass female characters? )
On the subject of Guilliman and the Codex, I got the impression (can't remember from where) that breaking up the legions into chapters wasn't because Guilliman thought it was a good idea, but because that was the compromise he reached with the other High Lords to allow the Astartes to continue to exist at all. Because the other High Lords flat out wanted every single marine executed to prevent another Horus Heresy. And that's why Dorn refused to accept it, because unlike ultimate-pragmatist Guilliman, he never saw any value in compromise. From Dorn's PoV, it reduced the Astartes' military effectiveness for no real purpose, just for stupid PR reasons, so why do it?
ou may have gotten that from me as I've been peddling that theory for awhile now. One of the ever present themes of the early HH books are that humanity doesn't realize just how fething vicious the Astartes are when they make war. it's one of the first thingsjust about every rememberancer character notes. So come the siege of terra the people of Terra see first hand how fething BRUTAL the space marines are, and are JUSTLY scared shitless. I'm sure there where a considerable number of calls to just disband the legions.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again.
I’d say numerous characters from Gaunts Ghosts have an excess of balls... Mkoll stands out, as does Giant himself for constantly speaking plainly even to the faces of Lord Generals who do not want to hear it lol
“Victory is not an abstract concept, it is the equation that sits at the heart of strategy. Victory is the will to expend lives and munitions in attack, overmatching the defenders’reserves of manpower and ordnance. As long as my Iron Warriors are willing to pay any price in pursuit of victory, we shall never be defeated.” - The Primarch Perturabo, Master of the Iron Warriors
Commissar Yarrick has massive stones. The number of times he rode into the face of death purely to inspire his troops and perform the Emperor's will is ridiculous.
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again.
So it worked? The HH saw 9 whole Legions rebel, plus a whole host of Imperial Army and Navy assets. Often this was as a result of how closely those elements worked together. It was fairly common when a Primarch and their Legion rebelled that a large proportion of the attached Imperial forces did so too. The Codex was about breaking up both the Legions and their influence over other military units. The Badab War is pretty insignificant when compared to the HH. Around 5000 Marines and one Battlefleet turned traitor. There has never been another event even close to the scale of the HH since the Codex was created.
What's interesting is whether the return of the loyalist Primarchs has the possibility to change things. One of the other factors in the Heresy was the raw charisma of the Primarchs and the fact many of the forces that fought under them revered and near-worshipped them. With the Emperor a distant, near-mythical figure it would have been much easier to follow the Primarch who had led you to victory after victory over some nebulous concept of the good of mankind. Imagine a situation where The Lion returns and decides to secede from the Imperium. I'm pretty sure he could persuade most, if not all, of the Unforgiven to follow him given enough time to set things up. Not saying he would, just an interesting thing to think about.
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again.
So it worked? The HH saw 9 whole Legions rebel, plus a whole host of Imperial Army and Navy assets. Often this was as a result of how closely those elements worked together. It was fairly common when a Primarch and their Legion rebelled that a large proportion of the attached Imperial forces did so too. The Codex was about breaking up both the Legions and their influence over other military units. The Badab War is pretty insignificant when compared to the HH. Around 5000 Marines and one Battlefleet turned traitor. There has never been another event even close to the scale of the HH since the Codex was created.
What's interesting is whether the return of the loyalist Primarchs has the possibility to change things. One of the other factors in the Heresy was the raw charisma of the Primarchs and the fact many of the forces that fought under them revered and near-worshipped them. With the Emperor a distant, near-mythical figure it would have been much easier to follow the Primarch who had led you to victory after victory over some nebulous concept of the good of mankind. Imagine a situation where The Lion returns and decides to secede from the Imperium. I'm pretty sure he could persuade most, if not all, of the Unforgiven to follow him given enough time to set things up. Not saying he would, just an interesting thing to think about.
Obviously not if the Badab war happened. Whats to stop 20 chapters, 100 or half the chapters joining together like they did in the Badab war and rebelling. The loyalist legions were loyal and have been for 10,000 years, Guilliman didn't need to split them up, especially with the HH being the best tool to teach about the seriousness of Chaos and rebelling. All that came out of the break up was limiting the Astartes and creating the possibility for rebellions and traitors, the only rebellions and chapters turning traitor etc. have been 2nd founding. The Badab war was smaller but it was still a significant rebellion.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/16 09:26:39
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again.
So it worked? The HH saw 9 whole Legions rebel, plus a whole host of Imperial Army and Navy assets. Often this was as a result of how closely those elements worked together. It was fairly common when a Primarch and their Legion rebelled that a large proportion of the attached Imperial forces did so too. The Codex was about breaking up both the Legions and their influence over other military units. The Badab War is pretty insignificant when compared to the HH. Around 5000 Marines and one Battlefleet turned traitor. There has never been another event even close to the scale of the HH since the Codex was created.
What's interesting is whether the return of the loyalist Primarchs has the possibility to change things. One of the other factors in the Heresy was the raw charisma of the Primarchs and the fact many of the forces that fought under them revered and near-worshipped them. With the Emperor a distant, near-mythical figure it would have been much easier to follow the Primarch who had led you to victory after victory over some nebulous concept of the good of mankind. Imagine a situation where The Lion returns and decides to secede from the Imperium. I'm pretty sure he could persuade most, if not all, of the Unforgiven to follow him given enough time to set things up. Not saying he would, just an interesting thing to think about.
Obviously not if the Badab war happened. Whats to stop 20 chapters, 100 or half the chapters joining together like they did in the Badab war and rebelling. The loyalist legions were loyal and have been for 10,000 years, Guilliman didn't need to split them up, especially with the HH being the best tool to teach about the seriousness of Chaos and rebelling. All that came out of the break up was limiting the Astartes and creating the possibility for rebellions and traitors, the only rebellions and chapters turning traitor etc. have been 2nd founding. The Badab war was smaller but it was still a significant rebellion.
for a guy who likes to quote giant blocks of text Del you sure make a lot of elementry mistakes. No the loyalist legions where NOT loyal for 10,000 years, they where loyal for just over 200 years. And yes the 1st founding Legions have been loyal, but the 2nd plus founders are all made of the same cloth. What would have happened in Huron had been commander of the Ultramarines Legion?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
I mean how can you say he was right, the Badab war was just a lower scale version of the HH, he didn't stop anything.
Because it was smaller scale. MUCH smaller scale. Gulliamn knew that preventing Marines falling to chaos was proably futile, so he didn't try to prevent it. rather he took steps to ensure the damage would be minimal when it happened. Basic Harm reduction. If you can't stop something bad from happening, take steps to mitigate the damage. THAT is what the codex was intended as. Not some "magical chaos vaccine"
The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again.
So it worked? The HH saw 9 whole Legions rebel, plus a whole host of Imperial Army and Navy assets. Often this was as a result of how closely those elements worked together. It was fairly common when a Primarch and their Legion rebelled that a large proportion of the attached Imperial forces did so too. The Codex was about breaking up both the Legions and their influence over other military units. The Badab War is pretty insignificant when compared to the HH. Around 5000 Marines and one Battlefleet turned traitor. There has never been another event even close to the scale of the HH since the Codex was created.
What's interesting is whether the return of the loyalist Primarchs has the possibility to change things. One of the other factors in the Heresy was the raw charisma of the Primarchs and the fact many of the forces that fought under them revered and near-worshipped them. With the Emperor a distant, near-mythical figure it would have been much easier to follow the Primarch who had led you to victory after victory over some nebulous concept of the good of mankind. Imagine a situation where The Lion returns and decides to secede from the Imperium. I'm pretty sure he could persuade most, if not all, of the Unforgiven to follow him given enough time to set things up. Not saying he would, just an interesting thing to think about.
Obviously not if the Badab war happened. Whats to stop 20 chapters, 100 or half the chapters joining together like they did in the Badab war and rebelling. The loyalist legions were loyal and have been for 10,000 years, Guilliman didn't need to split them up, especially with the HH being the best tool to teach about the seriousness of Chaos and rebelling. All that came out of the break up was limiting the Astartes and creating the possibility for rebellions and traitors, the only rebellions and chapters turning traitor etc. have been 2nd founding. The Badab war was smaller but it was still a significant rebellion.
for a guy who likes to quote giant blocks of text Del you sure make a lot of elementry mistakes. No the loyalist legions where NOT loyal for 10,000 years, they where loyal for just over 200 years. And yes the 1st founding Legions have been loyal, but the 2nd plus founders are all made of the same cloth. What would have happened in Huron had been commander of the Ultramarines Legion?
'Elementary mistakes' that's rich coming from you. I know more about your Ultramarines than you do and you go in rages if someone says something against your smurfs. You didn't even know Guilliman intended for the codex to be a be it and end all of warfare and was to be followed to the T and it would win any outcome, don't suddenly get cocky because I didn't know the exact numbers of the Badab war, its easy to google and prove someone wrong when they are obscure details. Plus you argue about books you've never even read (before you deny that remember unlike you I use quotes) The loyalists are still loyalists so yeah its 10,000 years DERP... The 2nd founding chapters have the same gene-seed, some have loyalty to their 1st founding legion and some have little relations with them and as such are the only ones that are constantly turning rouge/traitor.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/16 17:51:21
pm713 wrote: Much as I love text walls of fighting do you want to cut it out a little?
How can you have second foundings constantly turn traitor anyway? It makes no sense.
Because they are the only ones that have turned traitor.
Funny I can only think of one confirmed Space Marine Chapter that went traitor from the second founding, The Fists Exemplar. The root of their fall was beliving they where never wrong, this meant they refused to question their actions and thus they moved slower and slower into heresy
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
pm713 wrote: Much as I love text walls of fighting do you want to cut it out a little?
How can you have second foundings constantly turn traitor anyway? It makes no sense.
Because they are the only ones that have turned traitor.
Funny I can only think of one confirmed Space Marine Chapter that went traitor from the second founding, The Fists Exemplar. The root of their fall was beliving they where never wrong, this meant they refused to question their actions and thus they moved slower and slower into heresy
What about all the chapters who fought in the Badab war... Plus the Astral blades, avenging sons, annihilators, Berzerkers of Kharadon and on and on and on. before you start I mean collectively, I don't mean specifically the 2nd and you know it, so don't try and score points from semantics, I mean all the foundings after the 1st.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/16 19:56:45
Obviously not if the Badab war happened. Whats to stop 20 chapters, 100 or half the chapters joining together like they did in the Badab war and rebelling. The loyalist legions were loyal and have been for 10,000 years, Guilliman didn't need to split them up, especially with the HH being the best tool to teach about the seriousness of Chaos and rebelling. All that came out of the break up was limiting the Astartes and creating the possibility for rebellions and traitors, the only rebellions and chapters turning traitor etc. have been 2nd founding. The Badab war was smaller but it was still a significant rebellion.
OK, I'll make this very simple. The argument others are making is this:
1. The Codex Astartes was created, in part, to split up the Legions into smaller elements so one person would never wield the power the Primarchs did during the Crusade. As well as this, steps were taken to prevent them controlling large fleets and personally commanding Army regiments.
2. Since the creation of the Codex there has never been an uprising anywhere near the scale of the HH. Any uprisings there have been, of which the Badab war is one of the largest, have been comparatively tiny.
3. Therefore the Codex Astartes succeeded in one of its goals of reducing the power of the Space Marines.
That's the point others are making that you don't seem to be grasping. The Codex was not designed to completely stop anyone turning traitor. Some Chapters have gone rogue, yet none have had a significant impact on the Imperium as a whole.
Anyway, back to discussing the sioze of character's balls. I still vote Vect.
Obviously not if the Badab war happened. Whats to stop 20 chapters, 100 or half the chapters joining together like they did in the Badab war and rebelling. The loyalist legions were loyal and have been for 10,000 years, Guilliman didn't need to split them up, especially with the HH being the best tool to teach about the seriousness of Chaos and rebelling. All that came out of the break up was limiting the Astartes and creating the possibility for rebellions and traitors, the only rebellions and chapters turning traitor etc. have been 2nd founding. The Badab war was smaller but it was still a significant rebellion.
OK, I'll make this very simple. The argument others are making is this:
1. The Codex Astartes was created, in part, to split up the Legions into smaller elements so one person would never wield the power the Primarchs did during the Crusade. As well as this, steps were taken to prevent them controlling large fleets and personally commanding Army regiments.
2. Since the creation of the Codex there has never been an uprising anywhere near the scale of the HH. Any uprisings there have been, of which the Badab war is one of the largest, have been comparatively tiny.
3. Therefore the Codex Astartes succeeded in one of its goals of reducing the power of the Space Marines.
That's the point others are making that you don't seem to be grasping. The Codex was not designed to completely stop anyone turning traitor. Some Chapters have gone rogue, yet none have had a significant impact on the Imperium as a whole.
Anyway, back to discussing the sioze of character's balls. I still vote Vect.
Eh yeah I know... Its not like we are having a complicated debate.
The codex WAS designed to to stop the HH happening again. The Badab war still happened and what you seem not to understand is that its set a precident, what is there to stop 10, 20, half chapters from going rogue like in the Badab war (the codex hasn't worked and did what it was intended for). Refute my points rather than just repeating what other people have said. The codex and the splitting up of the legions was to stop the HH happening again, well it happened again in Badab, just at a lower scale, so it failed. I grasp what they are all saying and I have countered, all you are doing is pointlessly parroting what they've said, therefore you don't grasp the argument lol Congrats on being able to departmentalize with bullet points though, makes you seem like a genius lol.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/16 21:35:01
Had the Codex not been implemented, the risk of someone like Huron coming into power and taking more than just a handful of Chapters with him would have been vastly increased.
As it stands, Huron's rebellion was the largest one of it's kind since the Horus Heresy - bar one (which was caused by the Ecclesiarchy having too much power, not a Space Marine). If that's the worst that happened, Guilliman did well.
Del, you're right in that the Badab War was essentially the HH happening again at a smaller scale: which is why the Codex worked. Yes, Guilliman admits that he made mistakes with the Codex, but none of those mistakes were with him splitting the Legions. He regrets splitting Ultramar, but that's different - a civil matter, not an organisational one. However, I think you're mixing things up.
The Codex was designed to stop another Horus Heresy. The Codex wasn't designed to completely stop treachery, however.
I think even Guilliman wasn't brazen enough to believe that he could stop corruption. Instead, his goal was to minimise the impact of any corruption and treachery from an influential leader* - which the Badab War proved succeeded (because, as said, if Huron had claimed control of a Legion sized force? Bad things).
Think of it this way, banning chemical, nuclear and biological weapons in war doesn't stop war. It stops war being fought with those weapons, and limits how war can be "legally" waged, which is it's intent. The Codex is similar. It prevents a leader causing a legion-sized force to rebel, but it doesn't stop them rebelling, which is the objective of that section of the Codex. It's not a failure, and the Badab War proves it. You're trying to measure the success of the Codex by something it doesn't aim to do.
*which is interesting, actually. Despite Cawl repeating this point to Guilliman that the traitor legions themselves weren't flawed, but their training and influence (from their Primarchs) were the problems, and that using loyal Chapters drawn from traitor genestock wouldn't be an issue, Guilliman vehemently vetoes it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/16 22:26:54
Had the Codex not been implemented, the risk of someone like Huron coming into power and taking more than just a handful of Chapters with him would have been vastly increased.
As it stands, Huron's rebellion was the largest one of it's kind since the Horus Heresy - bar one (which was caused by the Ecclesiarchy having too much power, not a Space Marine). If that's the worst that happened, Guilliman did well.
Del, you're right in that the Badab War was essentially the HH happening again at a smaller scale: which is why the Codex worked. Yes, Guilliman admits that he made mistakes with the Codex, but none of those mistakes were with him splitting the Legions. He regrets splitting Ultramar, but that's different - a civil matter, not an organisational one. However, I think you're mixing things up.
The Codex was designed to stop another Horus Heresy. The Codex wasn't designed to completely stop treachery, however.
I think even Guilliman wasn't brazen enough to believe that he could stop corruption. Instead, his goal was to minimise the impact of any corruption and treachery from an influential leader* - which the Badab War proved succeeded (because, as said, if Huron had claimed control of a Legion sized force? Bad things).
Think of it this way, banning chemical, nuclear and biological weapons in war doesn't stop war. It stops war being fought with those weapons, and limits how war can be "legally" waged, which is it's intent. The Codex is similar. It prevents a leader causing a legion-sized force to rebel, but it doesn't stop them rebelling, which is the objective of that section of the Codex. It's not a failure, and the Badab War proves it.
You're trying to measure the success of the Codex by something it doesn't aim to do.
*which is interesting, actually. Despite Cawl repeating this point to Guilliman that the traitor legions themselves weren't flawed, but their training and influence (from their Primarchs) were the problems, and that using loyal Chapters drawn from traitor genestock wouldn't be an issue, Guilliman vehemently vetoes it.
"Had the Codex not been implemented, the risk of someone like Huron coming into power and taking more than just a handful of Chapters with him would have been vastly increased." no it wouldn't, all that Guilliman would have to do is ban warmasters.
"As it stands, Huron's rebellion was the largest one of it's kind since the Horus Heresy - bar one (which was caused by the Ecclesiarchy having too much power, not a Space Marine). If that's the worst that happened, Guilliman did well." that's just a false positive, just because the rebellion wasn't as bad as the HH has no bearing on the codex working, that it happened at all proves the contrary. I mean you's are arguing that the codex stops future HH, the Badab war was a future HH, all that is different was the size.
I mean this is ridiculous, the burden of proof is on you, to say the codex worked in preventing another HH you'd have to prove that there were no rebellions with different chapters all joining in the rebellion, you can't as that did happen. Your biases towards Guillimen are making you illogical. All you can say is yeah but it wasn't as bad as the HH. Yeah the codex ensured that it was a smaller conflict (even though is was one of the worst civil wars), but there is nothing in the codex that would stop it from being far greater, nothing to stop half of all chapters joining in a rebellion.
I never said it was to stop all treachery, its was designed to stop another HH happening, I swear people just write what they like to think.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2018/08/16 23:03:17
Delvarus Centurion wrote: "Had the Codex not been implemented, the risk of someone like Huron coming into power and taking more than just a handful of Chapters with him would have been vastly increased." no it wouldn't, all that Guilliman would have to do is ban warmasters.
No, Horus alone wasn't the problem. The Primarchs were. The fact that single figures, who were in charge of vast armies, battlegroups and forces, could fall and take so much with them. By compartmentalizing the strength that a single person could wield, Guilliman removed the main cause of the Heresy - that being the Primarchs.
"As it stands, Huron's rebellion was the largest one of it's kind since the Horus Heresy - bar one (which was caused by the Ecclesiarchy having too much power, not a Space Marine). If that's the worst that happened, Guilliman did well." that's just a false positive, just because the rebellion wasn't as bad as the HH has no bearing on the codex working, that it happened at all proves the contrary. I mean you's are arguing that the codex stops future HH, the Badab war was a future HH, all that is different was the size.
But here, size does matter. Otherwise, you could compare a single squad turning traitor to be a "mini Horus Heresy". What's the limit? One squad? A company? A Chapter? The force Huron had is only compared to the Legions because:
1. It was the largest rebellion (which took 10,000 years to occur) led by a Space Marine, making it the closest rival to Horus' (closest because all the others were so small)
2. Huron was able to make a far larger force from renegade forces AFTER he lost the War, which some people believe he possessed before he fled, which is untrue.
An example: compare a small hill to Mount Everest. That hill is the closest thing to the height of Everest, compared to the flat ground, but it doesn't mean it's anywhere near the same scale as Everest. That's how I'm seeing the Badab War in comparison to the HH. Sure, it was the closest one, but it wasn't anywhere near it.
Again, the fact that some Chapters fell isn't a fault of the Codex. The Codex wasn't built for that. It was built to stop another Horus Heresy. Has another Horus Heresy occurred?
No.
I rest my case.
I mean this is ridiculous, the burden of proof is on you, to say the codex worked in preventing another HH you'd have to prove that there were no rebellions with different chapters all joining in the rebellion, you can't as that did happen.
No Horus Heresy V2 occurred in over 10,000 years. Seeing as you can't prove that, if the Codex hadn't been introduced, there STILL wouldn't, I think that the current evidence is sufficient.
The fact that only one incident occurred, and most of the Chapters involved actually surrendered when Huron's third party influence wore off, that's evidence to me the Codex did it's job.
Again, you can speculate that, in an alternate timeline, that another HH might happen again, or that the HH would never happen again Codex or no, but that's speculation. As far as the facts go, the Badab War was the closest thing to another Horus Heresy, and it didn't even come close. It's barely worthy of being associated with it.
Your biases towards Guillimen are making you illogical.
IOW I'll call you biased because you're defending a certain point with reasoning and logical answers.
All you can say is yeah but it wasn't as bad as the HH. Yeah the codex ensured that it was a smaller conflict, but there is nothing in the codex that would stop it from being far greater, nothing to stop half of all chapters joining in a rebellion.
I rest my case.
The bolded is exactly what I'm saying the Codex aimed to do. You just admitted that the Codex did what it was aimed to do.
(Also, saying "the codex wouldn't have stopped it getting bigger" - I mean, in 10,000 years, it only reached the size of what Huron could manage. As you say, it ensured that it was a smaller conflict". So then, how long do you think it would have taken for someone to actually achieve something anywhere near what Horus did? Another 10,000 years? 20,000?)
I never said it was to stop all treachery, its was designed to stop another HH happening, I swear people just write what they like to think.
Exactly. And another Horus Heresy never happened. Sure, there were a few rebellions. A few Chapters turned traitor. But nothing like the Horus Heresy. Therefore, it was a success.
You say "the Badab War was a mini-Horus Heresy", but that's exactly the thing: it wasn't the Horus Heresy. It wasn't even close. Guilliman achieved what he meant.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: "Had the Codex not been implemented, the risk of someone like Huron coming into power and taking more than just a handful of Chapters with him would have been vastly increased." no it wouldn't, all that Guilliman would have to do is ban warmasters.
No, Horus alone wasn't the problem. The Primarchs were. The fact that single figures, who were in charge of vast armies, battlegroups and forces, could fall and take so much with them. By compartmentalizing the strength that a single person could wield, Guilliman removed the main cause of the Heresy - that being the Primarchs.
"As it stands, Huron's rebellion was the largest one of it's kind since the Horus Heresy - bar one (which was caused by the Ecclesiarchy having too much power, not a Space Marine). If that's the worst that happened, Guilliman did well." that's just a false positive, just because the rebellion wasn't as bad as the HH has no bearing on the codex working, that it happened at all proves the contrary. I mean you's are arguing that the codex stops future HH, the Badab war was a future HH, all that is different was the size.
But here, size does matter. Otherwise, you could compare a single squad turning traitor to be a "mini Horus Heresy". What's the limit? One squad? A company? A Chapter? The force Huron had is only compared to the Legions because:
1. It was the largest rebellion (which took 10,000 years to occur) led by a Space Marine, making it the closest rival to Horus' (closest because all the others were so small)
2. Huron was able to make a far larger force from renegade forces AFTER he lost the War, which some people believe he possessed before he fled, which is untrue.
An example: compare a small hill to Mount Everest. That hill is the closest thing to the height of Everest, compared to the flat ground, but it doesn't mean it's anywhere near the same scale as Everest. That's how I'm seeing the Badab War in comparison to the HH. Sure, it was the closest one, but it wasn't anywhere near it.
Again, the fact that some Chapters fell isn't a fault of the Codex. The Codex wasn't built for that. It was built to stop another Horus Heresy. Has another Horus Heresy occurred?
No.
I rest my case.
I mean this is ridiculous, the burden of proof is on you, to say the codex worked in preventing another HH you'd have to prove that there were no rebellions with different chapters all joining in the rebellion, you can't as that did happen.
No Horus Heresy V2 occurred in over 10,000 years. Seeing as you can't prove that, if the Codex hadn't been introduced, there STILL wouldn't, I think that the current evidence is sufficient.
The fact that only one incident occurred, and most of the Chapters involved actually surrendered when Huron's third party influence wore off, that's evidence to me the Codex did it's job.
Again, you can speculate that, in an alternate timeline, that another HH might happen again, or that the HH would never happen again Codex or no, but that's speculation. As far as the facts go, the Badab War was the closest thing to another Horus Heresy, and it didn't even come close. It's barely worthy of being associated with it.
Your biases towards Guillimen are making you illogical.
IOW I'll call you biased because you're defending a certain point with reasoning and logical answers.
All you can say is yeah but it wasn't as bad as the HH. Yeah the codex ensured that it was a smaller conflict, but there is nothing in the codex that would stop it from being far greater, nothing to stop half of all chapters joining in a rebellion.
I rest my case.
The bolded is exactly what I'm saying the Codex aimed to do. You just admitted that the Codex did what it was aimed to do.
(Also, saying "the codex wouldn't have stopped it getting bigger" - I mean, in 10,000 years, it only reached the size of what Huron could manage. As you say, it ensured that it was a smaller conflict". So then, how long do you think it would have taken for someone to actually achieve something anywhere near what Horus did? Another 10,000 years? 20,000?)
I never said it was to stop all treachery, its was designed to stop another HH happening, I swear people just write what they like to think.
Exactly. And another Horus Heresy never happened. Sure, there were a few rebellions. A few Chapters turned traitor. But nothing like the Horus Heresy. Therefore, it was a success.
You say "the Badab War was a mini-Horus Heresy", but that's exactly the thing: it wasn't the Horus Heresy. It wasn't even close. Guilliman achieved what he meant.
But here, size does matter. Otherwise, you could compare a single squad turning traitor to be a "mini Horus Heresy". What's the limit? One squad? A company? A Chapter? The force Huron had is only compared to the Legions because:
1. It was the largest rebellion (which took 10,000 years to occur) led by a Space Marine, making it the closest rival to Horus' (closest because all the others were so small)
2. Huron was able to make a far larger force from renegade forces AFTER he lost the War, which some people believe he possessed before he fled, which is untrue.
You haven't proved anything with that ^ that's irrelevant
You miss understand, I never said Horus was the problem, my point is that if he banned warmasters then there was no need to cut down the legions.
As for the size all it requires are chapters joining together to rebel. The size comparison is irrelevant unless you can prove that more than 4 chapters couldn't join and rebel or half the chapters, you can't prove that and seeing that 4 turned, far more could easily have joined or more in another rebellion.
"Again, the fact that some Chapters fell isn't a fault of the Codex. The Codex wasn't built for that. It was built to stop another Horus Heresy. Has another Horus Heresy occurred?
No." This is just a strawman, I never said anything like that. It does't fail if chapters turn, it fails when chapters join together and rebel.
"The fact that only one incident occurred, and most of the Chapters involved actually surrendered when Huron's third party influence wore off, that's evidence to me the Codex did it's job." Again another false positive. Even one incident wasn't supposed to happen. Plus the founding legions wouldn't have rebelled as they haven't in the 10,000 years after the HH, so all Guilliman did was weaken the Astartes without being able to stop rebellions.
If you agree that it reduced the size of the rebellion in the case of Badab war, but failed in stoping it from happening and that it could have been far bigger then you'd be right.
"Also, saying "the codex wouldn't have stopped it getting bigger" - I mean, in 10,000 years, it only reached the size of what Huron could manage. As you say, it ensured that it was a smaller conflict". So then, how long do you think it would have taken for someone to actually achieve something anywhere near what Horus did? Another 10,000 years? 20,000?)" - another false positive and anecdotal.
"You say "the Badab War was a mini-Horus Heresy", but that's exactly the thing: it wasn't the Horus Heresy. It wasn't even close. Guilliman achieved what he meant" - it was another HH, just on a lower scale, a rebellion is a rebellion.
Your biased because I know you are, I've had arguments with you on the Ultramarines before, you are extremely biased. I mean the Badab war happened, the codex couldn't stop it from happening and all you can counter with is 'it wasn't the same size as the HH. The splitting up of legions was to 'stop' the HH happening again, not to make a future HH smaller (which you can't prove anyways, there is only one example and you have no proof to suggest a rebellion on the scale of the HH could not happen, which is the only way you could prove it worked). With the evidence we have at most you can only say the codex helped, you cannot say it worked as intended and you have to say it failed in what it intended.
This message was edited 10 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 06:10:02
Respect for Hawke. Dude mowed down a squad of Iron Warriors with an assault cannon, survived a grenade going off inside his bunker, then went on to almost singlehandedly turn the tide of the siege of hydra cordatus by blowing up half the traitor warhost with a feth-huge ICBM. And he ended up being the only Imperial survivor of the siege. For a worthless fethup that was one mistake away from getting sent to the Commissar's firing line, I'd say he did pretty well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/17 04:24:19
Dude, the whole point of the codex was so that if one guy went rogue, he took a chapter of up to 1k marines and a strike cruiser or two. Maybe if 5, or 10 went rogue they took 5k or 10k marines with them. Now if said guys controlled legions rather than chapters then 1 guy = 100k marines, 5 guys, 500k marines, you have a new civil war on your hands because a handful of Legion commanders went rogue.
The trade off on this was you are more likely to lose a handful of marines more often. After all, 1000 chapters masters, there may be a few bad eggs. If there were still 9 legions, then there may not have been anyone going rogue wholesale. The risk was that if 1 or more of the said 9 did go rogue, then they had the power to tear the Imperium apart at the seams. That is what the codex was meant to stop, not any old chapter turning to chaos, and maybe taking a couple of his buddy chapter masters with him.
Now... back to the size of testicles.
Edit: Spelling
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/17 08:11:43
Then why do you clearly not understand what people are arguing?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: The codex WAS designed to to stop the HH happening again. The Badab war still happened and what you seem not to understand is that its set a precident, what is there to stop 10, 20, half chapters from going rogue like in the Badab war (the codex hasn't worked and did what it was intended for). Refute my points rather than just repeating what other people have said.
The Codex prevents it. Limiting the power of individuals so instead of it taking one figurehead (like a Primarch) to corrupt huge battlegroups of hundreds of thousands, you'd now need multiple individuals all turning rogue at the same time is what the Codex was designed to do. It's all about numbers, that's the important point. If a HH-era Legion was roughly 100,000 marines, it would take 1000 Chapter Masters turning rogue to be the equivalent of even 1 Legion doing the same in the HH, and that's not taking into account the fact the HH Legions also commanded huge armies of regular humans too. The thing that stops half the Chapters going rogue is the massively unlikely probability of half the Chapter Masters deciding en masse to rebel. It's purely down to numbers. Having 9 super-charismatic awe-inspiring leaders go rogue and take most of their troops with them is simply orders of magnitude more likely than having 500 do the same all at the same time.
Delvarus Centurion wrote: The codex and the splitting up of the legions was to stop the HH happening again, well it happened again in Badab, just at a lower scale, so it failed. I grasp what they are all saying...
No. You don't. You claim to, but as with just about every debate involving you, it's clear to everyone else that you actually don't understand what is being argued. You even show that in the quote above, right before you say you grasp what we're saying. I'll say it again, so it's as obvious as I can make it. I'll even make it a bullet point to highlight my genius.
1. The size of the rebellion is the whole point. HH >>>>>>>>>>>> Badab War.
The story of Ranulf’s death is told at great length in his saga. The Space Wolves were retreating over a narrow mountain pass following a rare defeat at the hands of the Orks. When the Orks caught up with the end of the Space Wolves’ column, Ranulf and a handful of Wolf Guard put up a gallant stand against the entire Ork army in a narrow gap in the pass. While the few warriors held back thousands of Orks, the remaining Space Wolves made it back to safety. Although they greatly outnumbered the defenders, the Orks were unable to bring more than a handful of troops into combat at any one time due to the narrowness and shape of the defile. Before many hours were passed there was a pile of Ork bodies as high as a wall. But even the giant Space Wolves warrior could not hold forever. One by one his Wolf Guard fell, until only Ranulf was left. Though the Orks overcame him in the end, even those creatures could not bring themselves to desecrate his body. When the Space Wolves recovered the pass they found Ranulf and his dead companions seated in a hastily constructed shrine surrounded by an immense pile of Ork wargear. To the Space Wolves Ranulf was a great Champion – but to his enemies he became nothing less than a God.
Dman137 wrote:
goobs is all you guys will ever be
By 1-irt: Still as long as Hissy keeps showing up this is one of the most entertaining threads ever.
Beyond the admittedly hilarious tangent that the 'Badab War Topic' has taken, I feel the sheer badassery of Lugft Huron is being lost.
The guy's a legend. The sheer brass neck of him. He was trying to build the Astral Claws into a Legion, he had his own Guard regiments and he was charismatic enough to bring the Mantis Warriors, Lamenters and Executioners along for the ride. It took the entire weight of the High Lords and the dubious 'extreme prejudice' tactics of the Carcharodons to bring him to heel.
Lucky, he and his allies were limited to circa 1000 marines each, eh?
Delvarus Centurion wrote:But here, size does matter. Otherwise, you could compare a single squad turning traitor to be a "mini Horus Heresy". What's the limit? One squad? A company? A Chapter? The force Huron had is only compared to the Legions because:
1. It was the largest rebellion (which took 10,000 years to occur) led by a Space Marine, making it the closest rival to Horus' (closest because all the others were so small)
2. Huron was able to make a far larger force from renegade forces AFTER he lost the War, which some people believe he possessed before he fled, which is untrue.
You haven't proved anything with that ^ that's irrelevant
Explain. How haven't I made that point clear?
The point is that, with the Codex in place, the closest thing to the scale of Horus Heresy was about four/five Chapters defecting, and the majority of those Chapters rejoining the Imperium, because they weren't directly under Huron's control.
It's very clearly not irrelevant. You might not like the facts, but they're there.
You miss understand, I never said Horus was the problem, my point is that if he banned warmasters then there was no need to cut down the legions.
I'm not saying Horus specifically was the problem either, nor Warmasters in general. The problem was in people LIKE Horus having positions of power wherein they controlled vast forces: such as just one space Marine Legion. Even if the position of Warmaster was removed, the threat of an entire Legion falling is still a possibility. That's what the problem is, and it's what the Codex solved.
As for the size all it requires are chapters joining together to rebel. The size comparison is irrelevant unless you can prove that more than 4 chapters couldn't join and rebel or half the chapters, you can't prove that and seeing that 4 turned, far more could easily have joined or more in another rebellion.
I can't prove that no more than four Chapters couldn't join. And yes, by having more separate forces, there was always the risk that more Chapter Masters could still take their Chapters with them. However, just ONE Legion Commander falling would take over ten times the amount of people with him, their equipment, and their combined auxiliaries and territory.
That was the risk Guilliman took. He could split the Legions, and risk more people falling, but taking fewer resources when they did, or he could risk putting more forces under fewer people's control, and risk losing the lot (eggs in one basket). In hindsight, we can see that the worst event was four Chapters rebelling (and only one of those four actually turning traitor for good). That is a far better case scenario than Huron taking the equivalent ten Chapters with him.
Yes, you can say all you like that "but you can't prove it COULDN'T have happened". No, I can't. But I can prove that it didn't. I can also tell you the same: you can't prove that "far more would easily have joined or more in another rebellion". You're relying on "what ifs" here, and that's nice for speculation, but that's all it is. I have facts.
"Again, the fact that some Chapters fell isn't a fault of the Codex. The Codex wasn't built for that. It was built to stop another Horus Heresy. Has another Horus Heresy occurred?
No." This is just a strawman, I never said anything like that. It does't fail if chapters turn, it fails when chapters join together and rebel.
And what was the biggest example of Chapters joining together and rebelling? Four Chapters. Not even close to a Legion sized force.
You can say all you like that "but it COULD have happened". Did it? No. I rest my case.
And no, you did actually say that. "The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again." The HH never happened again. Therefore, according to your own words, it worked.
"The fact that only one incident occurred, and most of the Chapters involved actually surrendered when Huron's third party influence wore off, that's evidence to me the Codex did it's job." Again another false positive. Even one incident wasn't supposed to happen.
Untrue, according to your own words. You said "The reason for cutting the legions into chapters was only to prevent the HH from happening again." Not to stop individual Chapters.
Guilliman couldn't stop Chapters banding together. Instead, he sought to destroy the natural ties of alliegance that the Legions created.
If Chapters banded together (which relied on multiple Chapter Masters simultaneously deciding to turn traitor, contacting eachother and running the risk of one of the Chapter Masters being loyal and ratting them out for heresy), then they would need to mobilise their forces together, on a Chapter-wide scale, which would certainly bring about the attention of the Inquisition and other Chapters. Far more steps and risks involved than a Legion Commander falling, and having the equivalent army at their beck and call without needing to liaise with anyone else.
The Codex couldn't stop Chapters banding together. It could stop the pre-created bands of Chapters in the form of Legions, however. It wasn't foolproof, but it succeeded nevertheless.
Plus the founding legions wouldn't have rebelled as they haven't in the 10,000 years after the HH, so all Guilliman did was weaken the Astartes without being able to stop rebellions.
Wouldn't they? You got any proof for that?
Sorry, I forgot, when you make suppositions, they're facts, aren't they?
If you agree that it reduced the size of the rebellion in the case of Badab war, but failed in stoping it from happening and that it could have been far bigger then you'd be right.
Yes. Could. But as far as the facts go, the Badab War was the largest rebellion of it's kind, and it was nowhere near the size of if one Legion fell.
So, I'll bite back with your attitude to things: "Having no Codex meant that one person COULD have taken a whole Legion with them at once!"
"Also, saying "the codex wouldn't have stopped it getting bigger" - I mean, in 10,000 years, it only reached the size of what Huron could manage. As you say, it ensured that it was a smaller conflict". So then, how long do you think it would have taken for someone to actually achieve something anywhere near what Horus did? Another 10,000 years? 20,000?)" - another false positive and anecdotal.
Implying that anything you're saying isn't just baseless supposition?
It's anecdotal, but it's still fact. Nothing larger than the Badab War occurred. Could something larger have happened? Yeah. Did something larger happen? No.
The problem with could is that nothing is off limits. "Horus COULD have been right all along, and would have overthrown Chaos after beating the Emperor!!" "Angron COULD have been the best Primarch if the Nails hadn't been in his skull!!" "Having a xeno-friendly policy COULD have saved humanity!!"
All coulds. But they have absolutely no validity to them beyond supposition.
"You say "the Badab War was a mini-Horus Heresy", but that's exactly the thing: it wasn't the Horus Heresy. It wasn't even close. Guilliman achieved what he meant" - it was another HH, just on a lower scale, a rebellion is a rebellion.
So is one squad rebelling "another HH"?
Sorry, this point is flat out wrong. I won't argue this point, because the idea that "a rebellion is a rebellion" shows you clearly don't understand what was important about the Horus Heresy.
The Horus Heresy was important because it took the decision of ONE (1) person to make over 10,000 people fall. With the Chapters split, it takes the decision of one person for every 1,000 people. To have the same effect, you need ten people, simultaneously, to make that same decision.
1 person versus 10. Even with a 50:50 chance, more there is a higher risk that the one person will fall.
Your biased because I know you are, I've had arguments with you on the Ultramarines before, you are extremely biased.
If my points are logical, supported with facts, and not based in blatant supposition and "what ifs" and "coulds", my views in other threads mean nothing. Bias is only bias when it ignores the actual facts and data to skew them in a certain favour.
In that respect, you're being far more biased than I am. But I'm not basing that on other threads which have nothing to do with this one: I'm basing it off what I can see in this thread.
You want to prove you're not? Give me some arguments that don't rely on "could", "what if" and other hypotheticals.
I mean the Badab war happened, the codex couldn't stop it from happening and all you can counter with is 'it wasn't the same size as the HH.
That counter is all the proof I need. It wasn't anywhere near the size of the HH, and therefore a success.
Think of a suppressor for a gun. The goal of that is to reduce the noise of a gun firing. It doesn't cancel all the noise. Yet to you, you would say that a suppressor fails in it's job because some noise is made.
The splitting up of legions was to 'stop' the HH happening again, not to make a future HH smaller (which you can't prove anyways, there is only one example and you have no proof to suggest a rebellion on the scale of the HH could not happen, which is the only way you could prove it worked).
You're making a fatal assumption here. You're implying that any rebellion = a Horus Heresy. This is not true.
The Horus Heresy was a rebellion. Not all rebellions are HHs.
The Codex wasn't there to stop rebellions. It was there to stop Horus Heresies - the massive rebellions caused by single people falling and taking their entire Legions with them.
I can't prove that a rebellion on the scale of the Horus Heresy couldn't have happened. However, I can prove that one did not happen for 10,000 years. Consider nuclear deterrents: I can't say with 100% certainty that a nuclear weapon will deter nuclear attacks on a country. But I can point to the fact that no-one has fired nuclear weapons at my country, and call that a success.
Do you think nuclear deterrents are failures?
At the same time, you can't prove that a Horus Heresy-sized event would have occurred at some point. So again, a supposition.
With the evidence we have at most you can only say the codex helped, you cannot say it worked as intended and you have to say it failed in what it intended.
I can only say it fails if a Horus Heresy scale event had occurred. Seeing as one hadn't, I can say that it is succeeding for now, and, up to the current point in the timeline, has worked as intended.
You can say that "there's a risk of another large scale rebellion" all you want, and you're right. However, the Codex has, up to the current point in the timeline, prevented such a large scale rebellion. That means, up until the current timeline, the Codex is succeeding and working as intended. And whatever baseless "what if" scenario is irrelevant up until the point that it happens. If it happens.
Coolyo294 wrote:Respect for Hawke. Dude mowed down a squad of Iron Warriors with an assault cannon, survived a grenade going off inside his bunker, then went on to almost singlehandedly turn the tide of the siege of hydra cordatus by blowing up half the traitor warhost with a feth-huge ICBM. And he ended up being the only Imperial survivor of the siege. For a worthless fethup that was one mistake away from getting sent to the Commissar's firing line, I'd say he did pretty well.
Can't believe I almost forgot about Hawke, I need to read Storm of Iron again.
Banville wrote:Beyond the admittedly hilarious tangent that the 'Badab War Topic' has taken, I feel the sheer badassery of Lugft Huron is being lost.
The guy's a legend. The sheer brass neck of him. He was trying to build the Astral Claws into a Legion, he had his own Guard regiments and he was charismatic enough to bring the Mantis Warriors, Lamenters and Executioners along for the ride. It took the entire weight of the High Lords and the dubious 'extreme prejudice' tactics of the Carcharodons to bring him to heel.
Lucky, he and his allies were limited to circa 1000 marines each, eh?
Huron was an absolute badass - that can't be forgotten!
)
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted 
