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Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Squig Buggy is the all rounder though. Can tackle most targets, and should work well to either soften up or finish up targets the other Speed Freeks stuff target.
And, that Squig Mine is actually quite nasty. As an Ork player, the Mortal Wounds shouldn’t prove too much bother. But for stuff like Maureens and other elites, is a highly efficient denial weapon (just drop it on an objective and that, ideally in no man’s land or the enemy deployment ones.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
Hope that helps!
It most definitely does help!
From the statlines we've seen so far, I'd argue that the squig buggy is by no means the all-rounder, that'd be the Boosta-Blasta. That thing can put out 4d3 flamer hits against infantry, the rivet kannon can smack elites or tanks, and the ram can hit elites with mortal wounds.
The squig buggy falls absolutely flat against tanks, most Elites in the game thanks to low AP, and cheap chaff. It's at best a niche unit dedicated to fighting high-toughness low-armor targets like grotesques, big daemons and gsc aberrants. It has the lowest movespeed we've seen so far, identical defenses, and is tied for the weakest melee (again, so far, I suppose the boomdakka could have no melee capabilities at all). There's no way it should be solidly more expensive than every buggy.
It's yet another unit with a "false choice" built right in - against nearly every common target you can shake a squig at, the D3 shot profile is best and the 1 shot profile is worst. Only against SPECIFICALLY S6 and S3 targets with 4+ or better armor and multiple wounds does the 1 shot profile do better. The poison profile is best against most things over T4 with no armor save. But not that much better.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Red Corsair wrote: How do you figure every other book deals with massed T8? Specifically we are talking knights as russes are MUCH easier to counter. There is a reason why Knights are stomping everything and need to be nerfed in CA. There isn't a single army that comes to mind besides obviously knights themselves that can hard counter knights without tailoring to an absurd level.
Most armies have some kind of high strength high damage weapons to down them or at least good amounts of mortal wounds to help with that. If your entire army is shooting a knight, and it doesn't die, you are going to have a problem.
I'm thinking of weapons in the power range of a lascannon or deff dread close combat weapon, not of one in the league of a volcano lance or volcano cannon (Castellan/Shadowsword main guns).
Russes are big problem for armies that cannot counter them. Index orks are such an army, since you basically need two units of tank bustas to kill one of them, and those tankbustas will be gone by turn 2.
There is no other way to "handle" russes during the first two turns besides shooting them.
Then there are baneblades, PBC, leviathans and repulsors, and CA may add any number of further T8 models you regularly see on tabletops.
Red Corsair wrote: Boys may have gone up while their upgrades went down, have to wait and see.
Boyz don't have upgrades. Nob does, I guess, but I don't think it would be enough to offset a boyz price hike. But I guess we will have to see what happens.
Boyz can have:
- a PK for 13
- a Kombi-Skorcha for 19
- 3 rokkits for 36
Plenty of potential for points/pl reduction, especially if they axe all non-model options, which means no more kombi weapon on the nob.
Not every army has higher strength high damage weapons all over the place. I play DE, nobody in there right mind is going to call them bad and their mainline AT is s8. One weapon is s9 on the bomber and it isn't all that great a platform all things considered. Orks will be fine from whats leaked so far, probably closer to top tier, the entire army is going to be on the doorstep in one fething turn, they need a draw back if you call that one, again show me which solo army is matching up with knights well.
As for russes, I play catachans, russes are solid but they can be shut down fairly easily, they get bracketed after only 6 wounds, thats two fething rockets lol.
I've been using 32mm on my Ork Killteam models and Kommandos. I think the metal Ard Boyz I have shoukd fit better on 32s as they fall over alot. But, the other 150+ boyz cab stay the way they are.
Alendrel wrote: Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
A 64% gain will have less impact than imprecision? Really?
I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 19:46:18
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
obviously using 25s can be a huge advantage (number of models in cover, combat or kff [if it still exists]).
It all depends on the TOs. It could very well be that their decision of whether or not allowing 25s will sway the outcome.
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Someone already shared a link for those base extender rings somewhere in here. That would save your bases with magnets and all you would need is to extend the basing material out a little on each edge a few at a time as you use the army, after a few months it will get done and not cost as much as snapping them off the existing bases.
Alendrel wrote: Eh, it's just like the original SM rebasing kerfuffle: ultimately, there's enough pros and cons between each that there will never be a consensus as to which is "better", and practically speaking the few mm difference will have less of an impact in games compared to the inevitable imprecision and inaccuracies in movement and placing of models (and especially so when dealing with models on smaller bases that are prone to falling over).
There's a bit of a difference between a couple dozen infantry and a couple hundred. If you play with any amount of terrain, deployment could already be an issue of just finding a place to fit all your models. These new buggies and the trike don't have a small footprint either.
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.
If folk are really worried about the 32mm bases, use them vertically rather than horizontally, you'll be able to fit far more Orks in a given space that way...…...
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
Euh, nope ... we are talking about the surface it takes on the field.
A 25mm base takes about 4.9 cm2 on your table, while a 32mm base takes 8.0 cm2.
Therefore, on any given surface, you put 64% more 25mm bases than you would put 32mm bases ...
Edit: For instance, on a 10cm by 10cm square surface, you can fit 12 boyz on 32mm bases but 20 boyz on 25mm bases
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 20:21:23
Sal4m4nd3r wrote: I know they said its fine, but if I want to go to an event (which I do enjoy competing in) I cant use more boyz if they are on 25s. Also, boyz look markedly better on 32s.
Just get 200 32mm metal discs to put the models on when you need to and use the 25mm bases when you can.
I'm hoping what really makes this codex is much like others will be strat synergy which with the scale of ork units could be big. Like blood axe always being in cover trait.. now the 2cp 5+ makes ye unit of 30 storm boys a 4+ chuck a pain boy in and a deff trike making em adv and charge ye building some good stuff.
It's all gonna be about those 2-3 pages of strats
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 20:25:16
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
OY.
Put 4 25mm boyz in a 50mm square. now double the size to 50mm. You now get 1 boy in that square (1/BaseSizeIncrease)^2.
This works no matter what the increase proportion is. The number of boyz is inversely proportional to the square of the increase in size.
And yes, I am frequently "Dumb enough" to put a lot of boyz in base contact with each other, when in combat, cover, or in a kff. Or when deploying them. Or when leaving a vehicle.
Good thing I'm "Dumb enough" to do that though...I don't know where'd I'd be if I weren't "Dumb enough."
Latro_ wrote: I'm hoping what really makes this codex is much like others will be strat synergy which with the scale of ork units could be big. Like blood axe always being in cover trait.. now the 2cp 5+ makes ye unit of 30 storm boys a 4+ chuck a pain boy in and a deff trike making em adv and charge ye building some good stuff.
It's all gonna be about those 2-3 pages of strats
I've seen several people suggest something like this in regards to the 'Ardboyz strat. Either stormboyz or flash gitz but has there been any indication that it works on anything other than normal boyz? I seriously doubt it will but it'd be fun to be proven wrong I suppose
Red Corsair wrote: Also you guys are assuming the KFF remained the same. It might have a much shorter range but flat effects entire units it touches again.
It's more logical to assume the kff will stay the same instead of guessing it will change based on no evidence or rumors. The kff has never affected anything before like you've suggested it might change into (as far as I remember). Granted I would like it to change that way, but that's a pipe dream.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 20:37:23
"dont put all yer boyz in one trukk" "umless its dredds, then take as much uf those as possible"
geargutz interpretation of the 'umies "eggs in one basket"
geargutz wrote: i also noticed that out of all the list entries in the GW speed freeks list that the bigmek has a listed upgrade. which just might mean that the bigmek will split into a profile that only has the SAG, but what of the bigmek with kff? well there is no official model with a KFF and thus will probably left in the index. no wonder why they brought a morkanaut for the KFF, its becasue its the only way they can get a 5up invul bubble in the new codex.....
GW needs to sort this whole ork HQ thing out. i love the new buggies, but they realy needed to make kits for our iconic HQs. not only can we not get a KFF bikemek with pts adjustments in the future but if suspicions are correct then we wont even be able to get any type of bigmek with any kff with updated pts.
well of course i guess there is the mega armored bigmek that can take the kff. but good luck having a mov4 model keeping up with a speedfreeks list or even a foot sloggin list.
the biggest issue of using a morkanaut to get a fast kff is that it is a massive target. ive run a massive dreddmob apocalypse game and my opponent soon learned to target the massive kff morkanauts which i was unlucky enough of them exploding and doing horrendous damage to everything they were meant to protect (even caused another few explodes results from other dredd...thats my luck).
This has always been the problem with the orkanauts. I had a game vs nids where I took 3. All 3 died by turn 5 however they did almost no damage on their own. Luckily for me I had the opposite situation. 2 of the 3 exploded and were surrounded by mounds of nids both horde and big bug alike. They took out so many of my opponents models that it shifted the tempo and I ended up winning. However they would have been worth about 120 points each had they not exploded.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Squig Buggy is the all rounder though. Can tackle most targets, and should work well to either soften up or finish up targets the other Speed Freeks stuff target.
And, that Squig Mine is actually quite nasty. As an Ork player, the Mortal Wounds shouldn’t prove too much bother. But for stuff like Maureens and other elites, is a highly efficient denial weapon (just drop it on an objective and that, ideally in no man’s land or the enemy deployment ones.
Warhammer 40,000 Well, guys - As you have spotted, some of the Ork models we've shown recently are on larger bases than they were previously supplied with.
As we have with several other armies in recent years, we're taking this opportunity to move some of our infantry models to bases more fitting to the size of the model - in most cases with Orks, to the newer 32mm base.
We've had a few people ask what the "official" base size is.
The answer is, that's it's both; You can use your models on whatever base they were provided with, or any base that model has been shown on in any of our Warhammer 40,000 publications.
If you have older models, you are welcome to rebase them if you like, and not if you don't - both base sizes are considered perfectly official. You don't need to go ripping the bases from under all 100+ of your green horde if you don't want to!
If you are attending an official Warhammer event, at one of our Warhammer World or Warhammer Fest events - either base sizes will be perfectly fine. If you are attending an Independently run Warhammer event, and are at all unsure - you should, as always, check with the event organiser.
Hope that helps!
It most definitely does help!
From the statlines we've seen so far, I'd argue that the squig buggy is by no means the all-rounder, that'd be the Boosta-Blasta. That thing can put out 4d3 flamer hits against infantry, the rivet kannon can smack elites or tanks, and the ram can hit elites with mortal wounds.
The squig buggy falls absolutely flat against tanks, most Elites in the game thanks to low AP, and cheap chaff. It's at best a niche unit dedicated to fighting high-toughness low-armor targets like grotesques, big daemons and gsc aberrants. It has the lowest movespeed we've seen so far, identical defenses, and is tied for the weakest melee (again, so far, I suppose the boomdakka could have no melee capabilities at all). There's no way it should be solidly more expensive than every buggy.
It's yet another unit with a "false choice" built right in - against nearly every common target you can shake a squig at, the D3 shot profile is best and the 1 shot profile is worst. Only against SPECIFICALLY S6 and S3 targets with 4+ or better armor and multiple wounds does the 1 shot profile do better. The poison profile is best against most things over T4 with no armor save. But not that much better.
Perhaps in a gunline type ork horde army the mine is meant to cut off charge lanes to the shooty units? a squad of 3 on a flank could drop 3 mines next to lootas or something else before moving forward. then they can shoot and move forward while the units meant to advance can.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 21:05:53
There's so much stuff coming out that it's as fascinating as it is frustrating to wait to see it all come together.
My head is already swirling, but it's not really enough to concretize a list building strategy or even commit to a clan paintjob yet.
I keep thinking, a deff trike evil sunz list with walkers and skorchas out the bottom would be intredasting.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
TedNugent wrote: There's so much stuff coming out that it's as fascinating as it is frustrating to wait to see it all come together.
My head is already swirling, but it's not really enough to concretize a list building strategy or even commit to a clan paintjob yet.
I keep thinking, a deff trike evil sunz list with walkers and skorchas out the bottom would be intredasting.
All my vehicles are already either red or metallic with lots of red bits. My boys are painted by unit - 90, in three different helmet colors, and 30 more "neutral" because they are converted WHFB dudes. I will not be repainting, or resizing. If a TO tells me I have to put them on 32's I will tell said TO stick a large stack of said 32's in a fungal place where the sun don't shine.
Since so far the Evil Sunz rules look awesome, I am glad for my red paint. My car is also red, but since it's a Fiat it definitely doesn't go faster.
I dont think this will be up to GW, it all depends on how powerfull boyz on 25mm bases will be compared to 32mm.
As we all know, the number of boyz in a an area is proportional to the square of base size. You can get 63% more 25mm boyz in the same space as 32s.
For math-challenged GW, this doesn't seem to matter. I think most people will start throwing our their new 32mm bases and buying 25s aftermarket.
21% more. A 25mm base is 78% of the size of a 32mm. If you are dumb enough to put them base to base. Since the greater strategic advantage lies in putting them 1-2" apart I don't think it's going to matter as much as you think.
There was a bunch of this 'The World Ends Now' placard carrying stuff when marines went to 32mm. It's actual effect is so little that most tournaments haven't bothered enforcing the change.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Evil sunz walkers would move an average of 11.5" a turn if they advance, then wartrike waaagh.
They are seriously fast. If you were using assault weapons, they could sling them without penalty.
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
Mother earth is pregnant for the third time, for y'all have knocked her up. I have tasted the maggots in the mind of the universe, but I was not offended. For I knew I had to rise above it all, or drown in my own gak.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/18 21:42:48
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
Most footslogging Ork armies can barely fit their army where they need it. That reasoning makes sense for a smaller model count, but not for big Ork army.
Exactly what strategic advantage to you gain by spreading your boyz out 1 to 2 inches apart, now that templates don't exist?
Larger foot prints to deny deep strikes, fewer models needed to chain back to aura characters or objectives or what have you, better ability to deny enemy movement options.
You know, minor things.
The thing is that boyz are already so good at those things with their relatively cheap 30 model mobs that going to 32mm is a truly minor advantage.
On the flip side going from being able to fight in four ranks to fighting in two ranks is quite a substantial disadvantage. There are also disadvantages when it comes to trying to keep inside a KFF bubble and when it comes to disembarking from transports.
So while there are advantages and disadvantages the advantages don't come anywhere close to making up for the disadvantages from a gameplay standpoint. Of course it's impossible to know how Boyz are going to perform without the rest of the codex, as other things are likely to change.
Personally I'm not very competitive, so I'm going to spend the hundreds of dollars to rebase my my boyz and I'll hopefully be happy with how they look and with them no longer tipping over so much. I can see how competitive players would be extremely concerned though.
Da Fast and Da Furious! about 5000pts (25% painted)
2000pts (50% painted) 
Fang, son of Great Fang, the traitor we seek, The laws of the brethren say this: That only the king sees the crown of the gods, And he, the usurper, must die.
2000
