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As long as they're not shooting at the skarboys.

I reckon Goff Skarboyz ought to be just about the right mix of cheap and genuinely scary, depending on opponent. The S5 means they can still do damage with a relative fraction not got themselves perished, and a whole Mob of 30 (no idea if that’s 20PL or less, I imagine less) ain’t something your opponent can realistically afford to ignore.

Downside there of course is that they’re no harder to perish than your average Boy.

the Stompa won't be of much use if it's rumoured to be 850pts. XD As someone who see's people take Knights and the different Blades to normal 2k points battles then a stompa would have been nice to balance out the field.

with badmoons reroll ones and ddd the most efficiant list for the posh gitz is literaly everything that isnt bs5.

mek guns
big gunz (index)
flashgitz (if they dont move)
dakkajet
killakanz
shockjump dragsta
rukatruck squig buggy (though its pl cost look like it will be too expensive to even consider fielding)
grots (might become competitive becasue of rumored boy price hike)

while this leaves out alot of other ork units you can still field a decent list with all these units. use the mek guns for your gunline, have the kilakans be the defensive line and then have the dragstas be the assault unit (grots are mainly for cp battery).
if ur opponent doesn't use a -1 to hit trait then this all sums up to some very impressive ork shooting.

in regard to the buffs that the stompa is getting. yeah, i fully expect the thing to not get a price decrease, becasue most of these upgrades just seem like a justification by GW to keep it expensive. but who knows, they increased the shooting of the morkanaut and its PL went from 18 to 15. we might get lucky.

man, if GW realy wanted to get some good ork sales they would make the stompa half price and ive it these upgrades. ork players everywhere will jump to have stompas on the table. its by far our most price efficient model (the most plastic for how much you pay)(ork players are less likely to scratchbuild if they can afford the thing and it has good rules). you will see a growing stompa metta that uses grots for cheap cp batteries. clan traits will make the stompa lists varied.man, that would look realy cool...but its a pipe dream.

All comes down to its price.

At current ~900pts, the dang thing should be roflstomping (ha, stomping) EVERYTHING except some of the really big FW stuff. It should only be going down to either insanely bad luck or focus fire of equal or greater worth. Not losing to a freaking knight most of the time, which costs quite a bit less.

Its way more expensive than even the Ta'unar, which i feel got hit with the nerfhammer pretty bad in 8th. Still costs less and does more, even feeling nerfed too much.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
All comes down to its price.

At current ~900pts, the dang thing should be roflstomping (ha, stomping) EVERYTHING except some of the really big FW stuff. It should only be going down to either insanely bad luck or focus fire of equal or greater worth. Not losing to a freaking knight most of the time, which costs quite a bit less.

Its way more expensive than even the Ta'unar, which i feel got hit with the nerfhammer pretty bad in 8th. Still costs less and does more, even feeling nerfed too much.

its crazy but the stompa is currently the same points as a fully loaded gallant and crusader both with carapace weapons!

I still think the Titans aren't costed to be balanced with points, just to keep them out of normal sized games and in the "for fun" Apoc setting.

In my first Apoc game in 8th my teammate and I realized we could build to destroy our opponents recently purchased Tyranid Bio-Titan in the first turn (before they changed deep strike). We decided that would be a dick move and also that the thing wasnt really a threat to us despite being ~2000 points. In the end my teammate even threw a couple Wraithknights into his list just so our opponent could actually do something useful with his newly purchased and painted Titan before we wrecked it.

The only reason the Stompa is in the codex is because they made that awesome plastic kit. Otherwise it would be Forgeworld only and not even be discussed here.

it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.

for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.

the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.

both of which i bet would probably 1shot a stompa. 2shot if the stompa was lucky.

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.

for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.

the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.

Uh.

The dragsta gets 2 shots, S8 ap-3 Dd6 right?

And thats at BS3+ right, so, 4/3 hits.

Now, looking at the Skrapjet, we know that its main gun is 2d3 shots, S8 AP-2 D3, and unlike the dragsta, it has more guns on top of that.

So that's 4/3 hits.

Hmm. I wonder why these models are a similar price.

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.

for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.

the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.

Uh huh.

Ok.

Great.

Except BS is the least of someone’s worries against Orks.

Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.

We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.

Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.

In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.

Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.

For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.

Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

for suvivability they think sheer amounts of wounds is enough and a pitiful d3 wonds repaired a round. so our expensive beefy stompa should cost way more then the knight becasue double wounds right? nope. any lascanon will melt through those wounds in no time, we cant even stack repairs anymore.

for balistic skill they are the most ignorant game maker for their own rules. most will say that shooting is even better then it was last edition, so thus anything that doesnt shoot well should be cheap right? nope. orks still pay alot for the damage and shots of our wpns, not the actual hit chance. just look at the dragsta for evidence of this. its our most accurate model yet it is very close to price to all the other bs5 buggies we got.

the dragsta will probably be the best selling buggy during this release.

I think it’s obvious that gw costs units on what they could do not what they will averagely will do.

 Geemoney wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
Am I literally the only person who’s going to play my Orks as the Clan they’re painted as, rather than trying to cheese the most effective rules for any given unit?

Wow...get over yourself. There is nothing wrong with optimizing an army list.

I paint my units different colors, just so I can tell them apart. I have red team, yellow team, blue team ect. So I am an a awkward spot, I am not sure how I am going differentiate ork clans and my units....

I am the same way! I have 30 boys with blue pants, 30 with khaki, 30 with brown... etc. Then my bikes are red. Meganobz started as yellow. All my boyz will be goffs. As that if my preferred clan, but I could see using a bad moons detachment with mek guns, jets etc. Or blood axe detachment with kommandos and bikes. Bikes with a 3+ save and retreat/charge. Yes please. To bad no shoot/charge possibilities that we know of.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Uh huh.

Ok.

Great.

Except BS is the least of someone’s worries against Orks.

Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.

We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.

Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.

In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.

Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.

For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.

Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.

I agree fully with this, ive had many a game where my dice just blow my opponent out of the water, ive had shooting phases that would make a flashgit blush and then an assault phase that just whiffs.... Ive never gone off averages, and many of my gaming group friends always go off math hammer and when it never goes towards there predictions they look so shocked and disheartened.

I attend quite a few UK tournaments and never do i base my list off math hammer, but off experience of my own codex and everyone elses.

 Malkyr wrote:
I still think the Titans aren't costed to be balanced with points, just to keep them out of normal sized games and in the "for fun" Apoc setting.

In my first Apoc game in 8th my teammate and I realized we could build to destroy our opponents recently purchased Tyranid Bio-Titan in the first turn (before they changed deep strike). We decided that would be a dick move and also that the thing wasnt really a threat to us despite being ~2000 points. In the end my teammate even threw a couple Wraithknights into his list just so our opponent could actually do something useful with his newly purchased and painted Titan before we wrecked it.

The only reason the Stompa is in the codex is because they made that awesome plastic kit. Otherwise it would be Forgeworld only and not even be discussed here.

I would agree with you normally, but we live in a world were Imperial players can and will include Knights in 2,000 point lists. All I ask for is for our version to be appropriately powerful/costed as theirs. If that means Gork/Morkanauts get more powerful I'm fine with that too, but currently just making the Stompa more viable seem a more sensible option. We have the kit, and it means we can use Gork/Morks for smaller point walker lists.

Fully agree on maths-hammering. It's a rough, poor guide but how many of us see the stats play out?

Very rarely. Gut and experience counts for far more.

Just tried to check out the Bad Moons accuracy on better BS, so for mek gunz/grots at BS4

Say you start with 60 shots again for simplicity's sake
30 shots hit. 10 shots are 1's, reroll those.
Another 5 hit. Out of those 35 hits 11.67 should be 6's. Now DDD generates another 5.83 hits. Those 11.67 extra shots should have another 1.95 1's in there, reroll those for another 0.97 hits.

So 30+5+5.83+0.97=41.8 hits =69.67% hit ratio

Same thing for BS3 for large numbers of grots or the shokkjump dragsta.

60 shots. Out of those 40 hit. 10 shots are 1's, reroll those for another 6.67 hits. Out of the 46.67 hits 11.67 are 6's, generating another 7.82 hits.Out of those 11.67 there would be another 1.95 1's. Reroll those for 1.3 more hits.

So 40+6.67+7.82+1.3=55.79=93% accuracy

Maybe I've made a mistake in the math somewhere but tedious dice rolling aside, these are some pretty good buffs!

rtb02 wrote:
Fully agree on maths-hammering. It's a rough, poor guide but how many of us see the stats play out?

Very rarely. Gut and experience counts for far more.

true, but should things be costed for times that the math is on their side? For instance in my games, dice hate me. So if the math says a KFF makes 1/3 the saves. Ill be lucky to get a save 1/6 the time. It's very sad but true. So again most of our units are overcosted. Not to mention due to the costings, we don't outnumber armies like we could without boy spam. Or units get blown off the board 1 or 2 at a time ap that when a unit does hit CC it's not a large enough of a hit to win the game.

I think with boys going up in points, with clan traits, gretchin might be a good filler for multiple detachments ... Just pointing out the obvious that isn't so obvious.

Maybe boys won't be the be all end all.

Part of the reason I really don't favor boys is because they are very much all or nothing, unlike other troops. They require support, transportation, unit size, modifiers, aura abilities, teleportation - they are inflexible and leave a crater in your list and what it can accomplish.

Although one thing to consider is maybe using screens from another detachment - snake bite grots or blood axe boys in a green tide - followed by rearguard goff skarboys.

Madoho wrote:
Does anyone know or has as an idea as to why boys, grots, ghazzy and nob with banner are "sold out" instead of temporarily out of stock?

Probably because when they return they'll have a different barcode number (together with redone cover art to take account of the 32mm bases, which could be a photoshop of the old stuff or a genuine new photo

so although the minis are the same the box as a whole isnt

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

Madoho wrote:
Does anyone know or has as an idea as to why boys, grots, ghazzy and nob with banner are "sold out" instead of temporarily out of stock?

Probably because when they return they'll have a different barcode number (together with redone cover art to take account of the 32mm bases, which could be a photoshop of the old stuff or a genuine new photo

so although the minis are the same the box as a whole isnt

this basically, the current stock code is no longer available, they will return with a new stock code

When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

You cannot price survivability right in a game where one player gets to use his whole army before the other. Until Warhammer chooses the alternate activation road and as long as any model can be destroyed before it even gets a chance to act, survivability will always be a headache to assess.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.

The SAG is plastic already, though you're right about the Weirdboy and Kommandos.

 Grimskul wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
When are the Finecast stuff going to be updated into plastic? They have a lot of models that are finecast, and I want some Kommandos, a weirdboy, and a SAG.

The SAG is plastic already, though you're right about the Weirdboy and Kommandos.

Oh wow, it is. Is it me, or does the plastic one look less beefy than the older one? At first I thought it looked different, but now I'm not sure.
My FLGS only has the Finecast one, so I didn't know.
Was it always webstore exclusive? Seems pretty restrictive.

In terms of re-rolls and Dakkadakkadakka.

Pure average is only part of the story.

Re-rolling 1’s can turn a rubbish roll into something approaching average. Getting extra shots on 6’s can pay further dividends.

And again, this is where purely statistical analysis falls over. It just doesn’t allow for good or bad luck. Despite being Well Clevers, I’m not sure I can properly translate, mathematically, re-rolling 1’s, then allowing for further 6’s from said re-roll, and the hitting again In fact, I totally can’t. Not even. Like. At all.

Again, none of us will roll enough dice in our lifetime for our experience to actually approach statistical average.

Then, factor in exactly which bit of Dakka benefits from the boost. Sure, it could be a mere Slugga that turns a 1 to hit into a 6 to hit then another 6.

I mean, that’s still not bad. Might be an additional extra wound. But what if it’s a Kustom Shokk Rifle that gets those ‘statiscal’ 6’s.

OUCH. That’s what,

Because we can never predict, without going into way, way.......WAY to much detail for a game where there’s precisely zero money at stake.

 Nym wrote:

geargutz wrote:
it all comes down to how GW is unable to correctly price survivability and ballistic skill.

You cannot price survivability right in a game where one player gets to use his whole army before the other. Until Warhammer chooses the alternate activation road and as long as any model can be destroyed before it even gets a chance to act, survivability will always be a headache to assess.

If ONLY there was some kind of of initiative system that we could use, gah! But there's no such thing.

Plus, who could imagine an initiative system that would work outside the combat phase anyway?

That would be silly!

Well, there’s not.

And I’m still not a millionaire.

Some things, we just have to accept. And get over.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Stompas have a stupid amount of wounds. Orks are also stupidly numerous. All the time you’re focusing on one target, there’s a great many other potential targets closing to their favoured range, where they can make a real mess.

We all have finite resources in any given turn. And mathhammering just doesn’t work, because none of us in our entire lives will chuck enough dice to be statistically significant. With the Stompa, it only takes a single Kustom Force Field in the mix to start stuffing up the precious average.

Yes, Attack A has a reasonable chance of doing a proper pod shot on a lone Stompa. Unless it’s within KFF range. Sure. ’statisically’ the save will fail 2/3rds of the time. But that’s just not to the amusement of the Dice Gods. And well we know it from experience.

In short, ant statiscal analysis fails when your looking at things in an isolation that simply won’t ever happen on the board. Pretty much ever.

Oh? Tournaments! Of course. Every heavy weapon ever there is definitely a LasCannon with a re-roll to hit, wound and damage.

For clarity, this isn’t a pop at your goodself, just the wider mindset.

Statistic mean nothing in 40k. Not when get down to it.

Wow. That's complete nonsense. I play the game for 20 years now and i can say without doubt i'm doing statiscally fine with rolls. Sure everyone has a good or bad game roll but should we price units because of this? I already killed a full HP blood thirster with pistol boyz. 21 hit, 10 wounds (on 6+). Should we price the pistol boyz as devastator then?

I had also games where i had 0 armor saved with my kustom force field so should it be free? Sure you'll have to take into account all the combo that you can make in the army to price it correctly but find me a combo that worth the killing/tanking potential of a raven castellan with the current stompa and i may agree with you.

Also you can't point out great luck games or bad luck games to define if units ar good or bad. It has nothing to do with it. If stats aren't important then why the hell are we pricing units in points? According to that every unit could be deadly or useless at the same time. How do you balance this?

Statistic is everything in 40k. At least if you try to be a good player.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Despite being Well Clevers, I’m not sure I can properly translate, mathematically, re-rolling 1’s, then allowing for further 6’s from said re-roll, and the hitting again In fact, I totally can’t. Not even. Like. At all.

.167*.167*.33

= .008

Or .8%