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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

I think the issue is that, at the competitive end of the game, many find it better to either focus the entire army on specialist roles to push through an agenda, hoping your opponent isn't the perfect counter to that angle. And/Or that instead of generalist units, one goes for a generalist army approach comprised of specialists. Ergo instead of trying to take units with general roles, they take specialists which cover different specific roles so that the army in general has the variety of tools.

So whilst a generalist looks variable and adaptable on paper, in their view of the game, the generalist doesn't do any role best

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i swear to god everything new GW puts out for other factions is always underpriced by a medium to large margin, but orks is always overpriced.....

Ah yes that urban myth again.

To do that deliberately requires skill in balancing. Ability gw designers lack

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i swear to god everything new GW puts out for other factions is always underpriced by a medium to large margin, but orks is always overpriced.....

What are the costs like in the codex then?... Clearly you've seen them and how they function alongside the kulturs and strategems?

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.

There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...

Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.

Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist

As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Let's break it down here a bit, looking specifically at the Squigbuggy and the Boosta-Blasta, because they are the generalists of the bunch, with mixed anti-tank/anti-infantry.

-Both have an "extra" means to cause D3 mortal wounds. The squigbuggy does mortal wounds if an opponent chooses to move onto an area, once per game. The boosta-blasta does mortal wounds 50% of the time when it charges, as many times as it wants. Point Boosta-blasta, for the same reason the Reaver bikes' grav-talon is better than the cluster caltrops: a source of mortal wounds where your opponent has to choose to take them will always be worse than one you get to choose.

-Both have an anti-infantry damage spike at close range. For the squigbuggy, that's 1.16 S3 hits and .666 S5 hits. For the boosta-blasta, that's 8 s4 hits. Definitely point for the boosta-blasta.

-The 'main gun' on the squigbuggy does 3 options, the main gun on the boosta-blasta only does one, it's true. Again I'll go off hits to factor in the mixed BS.

Bile squig gets 4.7 poison 4+ ap- hits.
Bitey squig gets 2.7 S5 AP-1 Dd3 hits.
Boom squig gets 1.3 S6 AP-3 D2 hits.

Boosta-Blasta gets 2 S7 AP-2 D2 hits from the rivet cannon.

There is almost no target in the entire game you could line up any one of those profiles for the squig cannons against the rivet cannon and do more damage with the squig cannons. Primaris Marines, Terminators, single wounds MEQ, and amazingly, lest you think "but the squig cannon has an anti infantry option!" the rivet cannon gets more kills if you aim it at GEQ. And if you think "wait, what about Grotesques, where they'll be getting invulnerable saves and making the AP-2 useless and getting mileage out of the poison 4+? nope. 1.48 wounds from the rivet cannon, 1.3 wounds from the poison squigs.

The "versatility" you get from the squigbuggy is a complete false choice. For one thing, the boom squig is NEVER EVER the best thing to shoot under any circumstance. Even in situations where you think "here's where I use the boom squig, against Terminators when the extra AP matters, right?" the bitey squig is better.

It's not "the generalist, better at being decent at everything". It's just straight up worse than the other generalist, and it's the most expensive for some reason.

tneva82 wrote:

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.

There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...

Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.

Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist

As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though

Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.

How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.

Why are generalists 'so bad'?!

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.

There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...

Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.

Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist

As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though

Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.

How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.

Why are generalists 'so bad'?!

Dakka is mostly populated by competitive and ultra-competitive players. Especially the ITC or whatever it's called. You'll see if you spend any time in the 40k board. As such, the majority of discussions here are based around competitive play and as such, unless it's high powered for tournament play, a unit will typically be dismissed as trash and generalist lists not really given much attention. Math-hammer rules here I'm afraid.

Fine, I accept and understand high level competition. What I don't accept is the constant statement of"facts" from certain individuals which are misleading to more impressionable/ younger forum members.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

rtb02 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Without trolling, I'm genuinely not understanding why peeps feel the Squigtrukk is the weakest.

Looking at it, it's the most flexible of all the buggies, with ammo types to pose a threat to most targets. The others feel far more specialised. Squig Mine though is more 'nice to have' than a reason to take the Buggy, that I get.

Heh you actually like it for reason it's bad then. Flexible. Generalist. In edition where specialitation rules.

I also like the squig buggy for its flexibility too. Am I also wrong? For people that like all comers lists it's fine. Conversely the much applauded shokkjump dragsta would be terrible against hordes.

There's more than one way to play and you don't surprise me you aren't keen on flexibility...

Just because we disagree doesn't make us wrong.

Oh for fun everything can be played. I'm looking at competively. 2 specialised is more powerfull than 2 generalist. You don't take dragsta vs horde. Duh. You take that vs tough targets and other vs horde and thus crush those who take generalist. Gw can't do good generalists. If you want power you take specialists. If you aim for weah list take generalist

As for are you wrong no. It's 100% valid to take subpar units as self handicap. They are still weaker option though

Duh indeed. If you're playing competitively you don't know what you're playing against. That's part of my point.

How can you factually state things are subpar when they've not been played and we don't have points costs.

Why are generalists 'so bad'?!

Dakka is mostly populated by competitive and ultra-competitive players. Especially the ITC or whatever it's called. You'll see if you spend any time in the 40k board. As such, the majority of discussions here are based around competitive play and as such, unless it's high powered for tournament play, a unit will typically be dismissed as trash and generalist lists not really given much attention. Math-hammer rules here I'm afraid.

Math-hammer does not necessarily mean a person is a competitive tournament player, it just means you actually take the time to see whether something is ACTUALLY a generalist or if you just think it's a generalist because you see multiple different attack profiles and think "ah, this must be better against a wide variety of things."

I have never played in a tournament. This doesn't mean I can't use math to figure out that the Rivet Cannon is better than any profile on the squig cannons against guardsmen, marines, primaris marines, terminators, standard tanks, light tanks, high toughness targets with invuln saves, and pretty much anything and everything you can come up with.

Evil Sunz Up. Doesn't seem to be anything we didn't already know.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/25/25th-oct-clan-fokus-evil-sunzgw-homepage-post-2/

Thanks for the input folks

 greggles wrote:
Evil Sunz Up. Doesn't seem to be anything we didn't already know.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/25/25th-oct-clan-fokus-evil-sunzgw-homepage-post-2/

Top Units:

Mekboy Workshop.

Why do you do this to us GW?

 greggles wrote:
Evil Sunz Up. Doesn't seem to be anything we didn't already know.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/25/25th-oct-clan-fokus-evil-sunzgw-homepage-post-2/

Speed Freek models get an extra 2" move. That's pretty nice, particularly for warbikers and the buggies that want to get up close and personal.

rtb02 wrote:
Fine, I accept and understand high level competition. What I don't accept is the constant statement of"facts" from certain individuals which are misleading to more impressionable/ younger forum members.

What? This isn't a self-help forum for young/impressionable kids. It's a 40k forum and it's actually a good thing that some unit choices are objectively bad in a competitive sense so people don't waste their money :p Money > protecting these unknown young impressionable kids.

crzylgs wrote:

 greggles wrote:
Evil Sunz Up. Doesn't seem to be anything we didn't already know.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/10/25/25th-oct-clan-fokus-evil-sunzgw-homepage-post-2/

Top Units:

Mekboy Workshop.

Why do you do this to us GW?

bur crzy itll be so useful for mechanized armies with its immobility and needing to stay in your deployment zone.

So.

Useful.

The problem with generalists is that in 40k you have only a couple of turns to do things and most of the time you can't be doing multiple things at the same time. Why I want a mediocre shooting and mediocre meele unit that will have a mediocre round of shooting one turn and a mediocre round of meele another turn when I can have an excelent shooting unit that will have two excelent shooting rounds or two excelent meele rounds.

And on top of that, GW always overprice generalist as if that was a strenght when in 40k it is a weakness. I love my generalists, don't think I don't, but I haven't had really a game where they worked as they should. They are nearly always a let down.

Probs just my personal preference then. I tend to favour flexible stuff, so I can be confident I can tackle the widest range of opponents.

But I get why others might want to fully specialise

That was the worst clan focus ever...... Top unit is a Mek Shop.... what?! Are you sure GW.... Right ok whatever, i would of mentioned some strats for Speed Freak keyword aligned units, not re-using the billowing exhausts we got from the buggy preview. And we have already seen the rules for the speedwaaagh! Maybe show some more of the Deffkilla wartrikes datasheet instead....

Such a bad focus honestly. I was hyped for today's article and it basically revealed nothing new and exciting for my favourite clan. They might as well skip today's faction focus as that was how helpful and insightful it was!!!

Really annoyed me. Kills my hype....

Ill just wait for a proper YouTube review on saturday, atleast that wont disappoint me with new information, instead of recycled news.

God...damn.

16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.

That focus clan... -_- seriously...

At least the +2 to move for speed freaks is nice. With all the bad luck of the world you'll make a 21" a turn (16 move+2 advance+3 charge with reroll) and average 28 without the reroll for charge.

 TedNugent wrote:
God...damn.

16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.

Yup. That will be mental. I had missed that it is +1" (or2") Move AND +1" Advance AND +1" Charge

I was looking forward to blood axes.

I have to admit, evil sunz are hard to turn down

The sheer amount of stupidity you could pull off with the clan strat.

Do storm boys qualify as speed freeks?

Looks really nasty to me. Im still nervous about the points cost for everything, but barring that it looks like we have a lot of good options so far with the different klan rules providing some unique playstyles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TedNugent wrote:


Do storm boys qualify as speed freeks?

That would be amazing. +2 to move and able to use the -1 to hit strat. Only thing is you cant advance and charge anymore (unless you bring an index biker boss I guess?)

 Galas wrote:
The problem with generalists is that in 40k you have only a couple of turns to do things and most of the time you can't be doing multiple things at the same time. Why I want a mediocre shooting and mediocre meele unit that will have a mediocre round of shooting one turn and a mediocre round of meele another turn when I can have an excelent shooting unit that will have two excelent shooting rounds or two excelent meele rounds.

And on top of that, GW always overprice generalist as if that was a strenght when in 40k it is a weakness. I love my generalists, don't think I don't, but I haven't had really a game where they worked as they should. They are nearly always a let down.

I'm not even saying generalists are always bad. They're usually bad, but when you have an instance where a unit really can do all the things it's intended to do at once, I think it can work.

The boosta-blasta is a great example of a generalist that could be perfectly functional. It's fast enough to get to burna range and possibly even assault range turn one, and it can theoretically do all its stuff - burn with the burna exhaust, charge that unit or a different unit for some mortal wounds, and plunk away at some elites or a vehicle with the rivet cannon - all in one turn.

The problem is, you have another generalist, with a higher Power Level, that is straight up worse at every single thing that boosta-blasta is doing on its turn.

yes, the over-competitive viewpoint of "if it's not one-rounding a House Raven castellan in one turn it's garbage" is obnoxious, but I don't think that means you should stick your fingers in your ears and yell LA LA LA I HATE MATH MATH IS BAD when someone points out that one of these two units does EVERYTHING better than this other unit that is more expensive than it, so you should probably pick one over the other.

Honestly I think it is a good thing for folks to be nervous over cost because I have yet to see anything aside from the squig buggy that wasn't REALLY strong. Jesus, the Klan Kulturs are gross, I mean the blood axe one for example is hyve fleet Jormungandre and Kraken rolled in one. Even the simple ones like Goff and snakebite are strong but they just don't look it next to the other Kulturs. The last thing anyone should want is the DE treatment. The army finally gets fixed and now I can't play it because they also dropped all the costs edging it into broken territory. Orks just needed to work in the first place. With the old rules a boy could cost 2 points and they would still lose. Just wait a week or two after the book drops. This release is looking very good. I mean, 6 kits on top of only good traits was already a good sign.

 TedNugent wrote:
I was looking forward to blood axes.

Same here. It looks like they keep the best fort the last article.

Nothing special to hope in my opinion.

 TedNugent wrote:
God...damn.

16" movement on bikes. 4.5" advance. Then charge with a trike.

Yeah it makes warbikes (possibly nob bikers if they are in the codex, otherwise the Index version wont get the keyword), deffkoptas, all the buggies except the squigbuggy quick and especially the Shokkjump Dragsta as it will be moving 16" before advancing too, however you dont necessarily need that much speed on those units.

With movement 14" base, advancing 3-4" on average and charging 2d6 rerollable thats a 24-26" turn 1 threat range. With Evil Sunz thats 28-30" turn 1 threat range. Yeah that sounds amazing, unless the opponent has a wall of chaff blocking off the cookie jar.... So you then have to hope you have enough dakka (you never have enough dakka) to clear a path to those tasty targets.

Im not saying its a bad trait for Speed Freaks as 1.) it forces the opponent to deploy further back into their deployment zone which is conceding board space. 2.) your more likely to make the charge turn 1 even if it is into a chaff unit. 3.) you remain just as accurate (orky wise?) when you advance with all those bikers/koptas/buggies. 4.) Can cover more distance to grab objectives.

However all those units so far are 1.) overcosted (as of yet). 2.) already pretty damn quick. 3.) inaccurate with ranged to clear GEQ. 4.) non of these units are objective secured so if there is one lone guardsmen on that objective its still his.

Personally Blood Axes seem to be the best trait for Speed Freak units, getting the cover bonus is so much more important for these fragile units than moving 3" more before charging. And then you have the added bonus of being able to fall back and charge without being fored to take the Evil Sunz rumoured Warlord Trait!

The planes arent affected by the Clan Trait at all and i would most likely make them Bad Moons for the reroll 1's to hit and the possible shooty aligned stratagem, Snakebites for the 6+++ and the strat to make there supa shootas hurt monsters and vehicles better (good for the dakka jet) or blood axes again to make them have a 3+ save (better than the deathskulls 6++ as most AT weapons used are ap3 or 2, ap4 is for the eldar/deldar or they have haywire so either case its moot).

Thats my general workings out for the evil sunz trait. Im open to new opinions but i agree with the general consensus that this trait is better for kan walls and greentides which is unfluffy. Though kan walls make some sense as they have can souped up engines on there dreads.

This response isnt aimed at you in a negative way TedNugent im just on a tangent

Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Does anyone plan on returning Speed Freeks? It seems like a defective product.

What's the problem with it? I'm honestly asking, was planning on picking it up friday or saturday.

Also, people keep talking about how overcosted the new buggies are (points wise). not that I'm disputing that, but have points been confirmed, or are just extrapolating from the power levels that have been shown?

Reece says every new codex is amazing. I think calling Reece a shill is unfair; but he literally makes a living selling GW products. Just always keep that in mind when reading his opinions.