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 aracersss wrote:
kustom blasta buggy 100pts
boomdakka 95pts
dragsta 108pts
squig buggy 140?
scrappajet 90pts

PTS FOR ALL 5 BUGGIES

 lolman1c wrote:
People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.

To me this is how it looks. We had a weak 1 trick pony index that seriously needed some looking at. And we almost got it... but the overall points are still terrible for orks... in games vs IG I was taking less models! Now from the looks of it my list has gone up in pts! All while their list went down with the codex (remember, guard was one if the most powerful indexes and we expected overall nerfs but didn't see it).

And that 1 trick pony only worked if you deliberately slowplayed 2-3 turn games....If you go for 4-6 turns that collapses immediately.

Ah well. Release went pretty much how I expected. Well I did not expect this many NERFS but wasn't expecting big boost orks needed.

That traktor cannon almost seems a bit too good imo. Auto hitting against flyers for less than 50 points doing melta range damage is huge. Sure the go down easy but they're also easy to overkill since they're individual models.

I really don't understand how people are complaining right now though. Upon first view this codex seems really strong

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.

You realize right only 1 squad has to stay near the gun? T1 others run elsewhere. And of course it's not just deep strike. They are used thorough game. By the time game ends if they haven't been killed they are waaaay elsewhere to guns.

Yea, and that's pretty stupid to have as a dynamic. Most games were not being won by a handful of grots that are removed by a few bolters.

And you're not longer paying for the grots, sooooo....go buy more grots.

 Galas wrote:
The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)

This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.

i could have lived with ork boyz nerf no problem. But our lootas and burna boyz needed a points drop and got nothing. Our rokkits on boyz got no drop. Our warboss went up in points? Our stompa... don't even get my started... painboy and runt herder went up in points for some reason? A flyer nobody even used went up in points? only unit i see having a good reduction is the Morkanaut who already has had to be buffed twice now. This was gw's time to shine and really show off that they know how to balance and listen to us... I really feel like points were just an after thought i this codex...

It's a shame because everything else was so unique.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

UUUUUUGGGGGGGGG

Because Boyz were already good. They just got distinctly better. I guess Conscripts should never have gone to 4 and Infantry Squads should never go to 5 points.

They were only good if you slowplayed to 2-3 turn game. Full game though....Well suboptimal gunline shoots 60 models a turn from orks. You can't fit much more than 320 models in 2k AND deploy(I did that). Quick math=320/60=5.333333 turns. So after 5 turns you have 20 models left. So in standard length game your army is less than 2 dozens. 6 turn and you are wiped out.

It's not good unit if you need to slowplay so that you play less turns than scenario tells you to play.

And now boyz went worse. Not better. Huge nerf there for core unit to already substandard unit. Great.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
People have been telling us though that's why our units went up in price.

UUUUUUGGGGGGGGG

Because Boyz were already good. They just got distinctly better. I guess Conscripts should never have gone to 4 and Infantry Squads should never go to 5 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
The nerf for ork boyz from 6ppm to 7ppm I can absolutely understand it. But all the other nerfs? I can't. Like... Orks sucked balls barring boyz and stormboyz (that were heavely nerfed with the Fly and deepstrike changes)

This does not mean that this Codex wont have some broken combo/build. It will probably have one. And maybe it can compete in tournaments (I doubt it will be able to fight agaisnt Soup, of course). But at this point I cant see the need to nerf those units that where allready bad.

Can you list the straight nerfs?

All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


They're not adding much area for deepstrike coverage while also staying close enough to the gun.

You realize right only 1 squad has to stay near the gun? T1 others run elsewhere. And of course it's not just deep strike. They are used thorough game. By the time game ends if they haven't been killed they are waaaay elsewhere to guns.

Yea, and that's pretty stupid to have as a dynamic. Most games were not being won by a handful of grots that are removed by a few bolters.

And you're not longer paying for the grots, sooooo....go buy more grots.

Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.

I presume mega armoured warbosses won't be affected by the warboss price rise, since being removed from the codex means the index cost will the most recent points cost for them?

 Galas wrote:


All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.

As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:


All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.

As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.

If you buff a bad unit and then give it a price increase is like doing nothing. Unless the price increase is deserved for a more fine tuned balance, but I seriously doubt that.

Any details onthe Kommandos?

>Still no bombs (other than stickbombs that's it) despite all the figures
loaded with mines and dynamite ?

>Any Heavy weapon other than the big shoota?
(GW no longer sell the burna dude and never sold a rokkit kommando)?

tneva82 wrote:


Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.

KMKs were already decent. Now they do more damage.

A triple lance Ravager is 140 points for 3 BS3 S8 AP4 D6, which is 3.1 vs an Armiger and 4.7 vs a Pred.

Two KMKs do 5.4 and 6.8 respectively for 34 points less.

Have some perspective.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Galas wrote:


All those price increases, of course. An all the overpriced units that saw no price decrease, but those we'll see how they end up after the Kulturs, etc... apply to them.

As far as I can see nothing with a price increase wasn't also boosted in some way - except Boyz who have more ethereal buffs.

Buffs like clan traits etc that are free...So the 1 pts extra isn't due to traits etc but flat out nerf. And boyz were already substandard unit.

So let's see. Other armies: Power level 10. Gets 10% boost for free for 0 price increase. Orks: Power level 8. Get 10% boost but increase cost by 16%.

Fair? Gap actually increased.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:


Gun still costs more while the unit got worse. Double nerf. KMK's weren't tournament dominating cheese either so why double nerf. Nerf the crew(which are now just there to eat space so the crew models are just weak point for the gun) and upped price. Oh yeah like KMK's needed double nerfs. Anybody with basic ABC game design would know this was unneeded.

KMKs were already decent. Now they do more damage.

A triple lance Ravager is 140 points for 3 BS3 S8 AP4 D6, which is 3.1 vs an Armiger and 4.7 vs a Pred.

Two KMKs do 5.4 and 6.8 respectively for 34 points less.

Have some perspective.

Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.

And you are only looking at damage output. Shows how bad you are at game design. Ravager is waaaaaaaaaaay better than the new KMK.

tneva82 wrote:


Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.

.

No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?

I still don't get why everyone is telling me Boyz are so good. I entered a tournament only a few weeks ago where I brought mainly boyz and lost 60 boyz a turn. In the live stream he outright says boyz got nerfed to stop us from taking them... there was no other reason.

The fact is Knights got buffs and a decrease in points.
Tyranids (an already good index) got buffs and a decrease in points.
Space Marines (although not amazing... but I've played my army vs my own orks many times and lost overy time) got buffs while having a points decrease.
Imperial Guard got overall buffs (The Russ is a good example) while going down in points.

The Ork codex just seems a little unfair...

however, the Trukk and wagon buff is appreciated and the Dread is now cheaper than a Marine Dreadnought now I think so that's good.

tneva82 wrote:


Yes they were decent. Then they got tiny boost but also nerf AND were nerfed with price. They weren't brokenly good. Hitting them with double nerfbat was unneeded. Only complete game design rookie could do that mistake.

And we'll just have to agree to disagree.

And you are only looking at damage output. Shows how bad you are at game design. Ravager is waaaaaaaaaaay better than the new KMK.

Sure, pal. Mek Gunz are a "softer target". First turn damage absolutely matters.

Let's do it this way.

Two Lance Ravagers are 280 - T6 20 wounds degrading.
Five KMKs are 290 - T5 30 wounds.

4 KMKs guarantee one dead. Three will put one on it's last bracket with a high chance of killing it.
A single Ravager shooting a KMK doesn't even average to 6 wounds - two shooting gets 1.5.

So the KMKs can put a Ravager down with ease taking 3 guns out of the fight (AND they can fire one at a time to determine the next best course of action where Ravagers are allocating 3 guns at a time). And the Ravagers can reliably take ONE gun out of the fight.

So even if Ravagers go first the KMKs still have enough left to pull a full Ravager out of the sky.

gak let's do dissie Ravagers - they can kill TWO guns per turn, which is STILL behind what KMKs can do.

 davou wrote:
No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?

Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 davou wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?

Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.

No, but you certain can miss the mark and constantly complain if this thread is any Indicator

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 davou wrote:
No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?

Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.

That is true, I can;t ride a motorbike but when i see someone travelling at 90 mph into a wall I do tend to have the authority to say he's doing it wrong.

 lolman1c wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 davou wrote:
No one here thinks you have any authority to criticise on the subject of game design, so why not drop the holier than thou attitude when it comes to it?

Protip: You don't actually need to be an expert at something to be able to tell when someone else is doing it terribly.

That is true, I can;t ride a motorbike but when i see someone travelling at 90 mph into a wall I do tend to have the authority to say he's doing it wrong.

You guys are a riot. We'll see how it turns out soon enough.

Ghazgul has gone up in points (not sure if anyone has mentioned yet) not sure how much though.

To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.

I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.

Nob Bika pt. cost anyone? I'd much appreciate it.

 lolman1c wrote:
I still don't get why everyone is telling me Boyz are so good. I entered a tournament only a few weeks ago where I brought mainly boyz and lost 60 boyz a turn. In the live stream he outright says boyz got nerfed to stop us from taking them... there was no other reason.

Dunno. Only logical answer is they play with grey knights. That's the only faction that is actually in trouble vs orks but then again that's because GK's are the one faction that's screwed even more than orks. Poor GK. They deserve revisioned codex fast.

That or they only play against slowplayer who gets only 2-3 turns played or are themselves so slow that game goes 2-3 turns.

But 5-6 turns as scenarios tell you to play you are lucky if you avoid wipeout. This with substandard gunlines(dark eldar army that has like 12 dark lances for example is hardly most optimized...Disintegrator is better vs vehicles and obviously better vs infantry)

Even semi decent player should have no trouble with orks assuming one of the players isn't slowplaying like hell. Boyz are awesome in 2 turn game. In 5-6 turn game? Less so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mandragola wrote:
To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.

I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.

CA comes in december. It's already done and ready. Only way points would change in CA is GW decided to change points BEFORE codex was even released. Very thin chances. Last year tyranids got released close to CA and zero changes there either.

Don't count on point changes in CA. GW did the purchace pattern changing alternations in codex so want to have stuff sell with those before changing what players buy next.

they better release a warboss and big mek kit and give us back those models at some point.

That is absolute BS to remove THAT MANY RULES. I swear to god if they ever announce Indexes are no longer legal and they didnt give us an extension with new warboss/mek stuff by then....

Upside, personally i stopped using Megaboss in every list since 4+ armor is atleast DECENT now and odds are he wont even use it except in melee anyway. Nonmega KFF...i cant remember the last time i DIDNT have one.

Anybody know if Ghaz's special rules are universal or did they go Goff only? His stuff was the only rules we had that just said friendly ork, not a clan

tneva82 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
To be fair, this discussion closely resembes pretty much every other discussion of a new codex before people have it in their hands. We can see the obviously wrong stuff (like the stompa's cost) but not a whole lot else.

I don't know if orks will be good. I don#t see how they can take on knights, but to be honest knights need a nerf and aren't a fair comparison. The meta is in that weird place right now where everyone's waiting to see what CA does. It could conceivably even see changes to the points in this codex.

CA comes in december. It's already done and ready. Only way points would change in CA is GW decided to change points BEFORE codex was even released. Very thin chances. Last year tyranids got released close to CA and zero changes there either.

Don't count on point changes in CA. GW did the purchace pattern changing alternations in codex so want to have stuff sell with those before changing what players buy next.

See again you're unable to think outside your current mindset. It seems to me he's saying - as others have said repeatedly - that CA could easily nerf knights et al not that it will "fix Orks".

I can’t tell but what’s the difference w the limited ed codex other theb doubke price

anyone have a word on the points cost/rules for deffkoptas? I gotta leave for work and I cant watch an hour+ long youtube video

Need gorkanaut rules and points.