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 Glane wrote:

gungo wrote:
I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?

Units comprised entirely of Gretchin models can't gain Kultur traits. However, we don't know yet whether Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword or not. They do in the Index, so most likely they will in the Codex, which is extremely disappointing.

EDIT: Found a video with the Mek Gun page. They do indeed have the Gretchin keyword. So no Kultur on them sadly.

Spoiler:

I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected

 JimOnMars wrote:
But they are not compolsed entirely of gretchin models.

Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.

Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.

geargutz wrote:
heres an idea to maybe make lootas good.

mob up a squad of 10 and 15
have them either deathskull or badmoons for improving shooting
stick them in terrain if possible for cover save
have a squad of 30ish grots nearby with runtherd to keep them from running.
when the lootas are targeted then you activate grotshield
lootas still get their saves before grots are removed
use double shoot strat (badmoon only i think) to shoot twice (not sure how many cp it costs)
lootas x25 (425)
grots x30 (90)
runtherd (35? hard to see the price)
and 2 total command pts for some survivable lootas with decent enough dakka
might be good, might not. worth trying out.

I wonder if grotshield works with vehicles. What if you put the lootas in a battlewagon, the grotshield the battlewagon? Lots of points to waste, but the 20 lootas might survive the game.

I also wonder if you could grotshield a stompa. Imagine the volcano cannon output getting blocked by 4 grots?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Glane wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
But they are not compolsed entirely of gretchin models.

Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.

Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.

Gretchin keyword <> Gretchin model. Because Gretchin are a unit and a keyword, the rule could mean either.

The gun is clearly not a Gretchin model. It's a Mek Gun Model.

 Billagio wrote:


I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected

I think it's quite intentional, because it would be too strong in my opinion.

 JimOnMars wrote:

I wonder if grotshield works with vehicles. What if you put the lootas in a battlewagon, the grotshield the battlewagon? Lots of points to waste, but the 20 lootas might survive the game.

I also wonder if you could grotshield a stompa. Imagine the volcano cannon output getting blocked by 4 grots?

im pretty sure the mini wargaming guys said if an ork infantry target was targeted

(as an added note the miniwargaming guys were the only ones ive seen so far on utube that think the mekshop is no good.)

geargutz wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

Except they are. The Grot Gunners aren't a separate line anymore like they were in the Index. The whole unit now has the Gretchin keyword. They can't get Kultur.

Killa Kans picked it up too, so no traits for them either.

Gretchin keyword <> Gretchin model. Because Gretchin are a unit and a keyword, the rule could mean either.

The gun is clearly not a Gretchin model. It's a Mek Gun Model.

If it has the Gretchin keyword then it is a Gretchin model the same way Tzaangors are Heretic Astartes without actually being CSM.

Mek gunz and kans are mostly poo without the kultur buffs..

I’ll need to wait for my codex but it seems there will be viable builds using index units with some of the new toys.

Well. I was actually going to buy any of this new stuff but with all the nerfs I'm just going to continue to not work on my ork army and maybe use something GW cares about in the slightest. Hopefully the next CA (the one next year) changes the orks to reflect the drop in sales they'll see from another joke code-..oh who am I kidding, all ork codecies are jokes.

So what’s the lowdown on the new Ork vehicles? Which ones are worth taking in a list? I can’t get them all, and as much as I want to just buy the ones that look the coolest...I’d need to be a little more practical...can someone point me to the thread page that discusses the merits (that have been leaked), etc of the new buggies/trike?

Thanks in advance!

Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?

The gun is clearly not a Gretchin model. It's a Mek Gun Model.

Yeah, and it has the Gretchin keyword. The Grots rule for the Ork Codex states

"Units comprised entirely of GRETCHIN cannot benefit from Clan Kultur."

You can check it yourself here: https://youtu.be/Dv9rCFkTkjM?t=720 12:00 in.

That's how keywords work. The fact that there's a unit called Gretchin is entirely irrelevant, because it's all about the keywords. If the Gretchin unit didn't have the Gretchin keyword then it wouldn't count as a Gretchin unit, strange as that might sound. Look, I get it; I had high hopes for my Deffskull Mek Guns which are now in ruins, but it is absolutely clear: RAW, Mek Guns are a Gretchin unit and cannot gain Clan Kultur. And if you want to go by RAI, the Grot rule fluff says that Grots can never be truly part of a Clan, and no matter how we slice it, Mek Guns are crewed exclusively by Gretchin.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?

Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines on everything outside of dreads or hellbrutes.

Outside of that, very little comes to mind. In terms of vehicles, Taurox Primes outside of a Scion detachment, and Valkyries don't get traits, but they are also not mainline tank/artillery units. Eldar have an infantry unit I believe that don't get their trait, and I am honestly unsure of Kroot and Tau Auxiliaries. Seems like Gretchin are being given the same treatment as auxiliary units do in other codices - they don't get the detachment bonuses, but they won't take them away either.

kurhanik wrote:
I am honestly unsure of Kroot and Tau Auxiliaries.

They don't. Though there is a warlord trait that gives them "for the greater good" (which is shared overwatch), but that's about it.

Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.

Voss wrote:
Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.

We assume they will come separately later. If you want the dragsta, though, pony up the $150.

 Fango wrote:
So what’s the lowdown on the new Ork vehicles? Which ones are worth taking in a list? I can’t get them all, and as much as I want to just buy the ones that look the coolest...I’d need to be a little more practical...can someone point me to the thread page that discusses the merits (that have been leaked), etc of the new buggies/trike?

Thanks in advance!

Boosta, dragsta, skrapjet definitely look aces. Squigbuggy and boomdakka seem weakest

 JimOnMars wrote:

Voss wrote:
Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.

We assume they will come separately later. If you want the dragsta, though, pony up the $150.

Thats what the guy at my local GW store said today (for what its worth). His assumption is theyll come out as seperate kits a few months down the road

Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz

Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.

No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.

The 1 point increase isn't even the majority of the complaints.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?

All Marine Codici?

 Lysenis wrote:
Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz

Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.

No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.

welp this is aggravating for me. i have had orks for a few editions and i see a bunch of non ork players and new player coming into orks complaining about the veteran ork players.

never mind we have played orks longer then any of the newbies and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the faction and can understand with what we have seen so far that while we did get some good stuff we have also been shafted with other things, oh no, we are whiners when GW gives us a half effort codex.

see how annoying it is for us veterans for all you newbies to orks not "getting it"?

Every other faction got bonuses, they didn't go up in points when they codexes.

Most even got point drops along with their flashy new bonuses.

Legit complaints shouldn't be ridiculed.

 whembly wrote:
Regarding the Stomping... it may actually be appropriately priced in that it's super resiliant.

When grot riggers gives it a d3 wounds back a turn.

Okay so let's see how that would have helped me:

1st game: Shot in one turn. No grot rigger
2nd game: Shot in one turn. No grot rigger
3rd game: 36 wounds in one turn. Let's assume grot rigger fixed 3 wounds. 7 wounds left. It suffered dozen or so wounds anyway next round.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
the live stream already say the disembark happens before the vehicle is destroyed so you just play it after.

Unfortunately the live stream also claimed the KFF rules were changed, and recent reviews have shown that to be false. Due to such inconsistencies you will have people arguing about looting vehicles after disembarking until there is an official FAQ concerning it. I know HIWPI, but I know better than to expect a claim on a live stream to officially resolve this debate. Fortunately for me, all the people I play with will be going with the most sensible ruling of being able to loot after disembark.

Here's novel concept. Let's see what rules say? "if transport is destroyed any units embarked within immediately disembar(see below) before transport model is removed".

So clearly disembarking happens AFTER vehicle is destroyed but BEFORE model is removed. Question then is can loota strategem used between that moment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gungo wrote:
I keep hearing deathskull kmk are better then badmoons kmk hiwever i thought Mek guns don’t get clan/kultur traits.?

That was based on idea BEFORE the "no kultur for gretchin" thing came upon. Now it's irrelevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
Huh. So, you can't buy two of the six new buggies without buying speedfreaks? Interesting choice. I guess you're getting 6 bikes at 3/4s price (at least in US$), but that isn't particularly amazing.

Warglaives were similar at start only buyable from the forgebane. I'm willing to bet money the buggies WILL come later. GW wants that kit to sell as much as possible. Also it's very likely speed freak box set will eventually come out of sale once the board game parts(which GW outsource) run out of stock as it would cost GW likely too much to be worth it. Much like all other boxed game sets tend to go. Not immediate event so no need to panic buy but next year this time I expect no speed freak box on sale anymore.

 Billagio wrote:
I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected

I think this is very much intentional. In previous codices kanz and gretchin were excluded from benefiting army-wide rules as well, because they simply aren't orks.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Billagio wrote:
I would really like for them to clarify that in an FAQ. Its a little murky as it is and it seems like their intention is for grots squads to not have kulturs, but overlooked that mek gunz also would be affected

I think this is very much intentional. In previous codices kanz and gretchin were excluded from benefiting army-wide rules as well, because they simply aren't orks.

well if this is true then it looks like the kilakanz are probably going to stay on the shelf. though i think with meganobz getting a pts drop then i will dajump those now right into the enemy in place of the killakanz.
as far as mekguns i think ill do the traktor kannons, it seems they autohit now and can realy hurt units with fly.
will have to see.

i have a list centered around these units over on the ork speculation thread (not gonna post it here becasue it would be a little to off topic of new/rumors).

geargutz wrote:

 Lysenis wrote:
Welp this is aggravating for me. I am buying into orks and all I see are people complaing that they will pay 1 point more for boyz and stormboyz

Never mind that boyz now have strategems that can make them dangerous, kulturs that make them dangerous, and even a snazzy new Dakka Dakka Dakka rule that makes them dangerous.

No no, none of that means they sould of increased in points by 1. It did not affect their ability to kill things whats so ever. No, even a 6+ invulnerable save didnt help increase their survival rate even a tiny bit, no. They are exactly the same as they were in the index and had no synergestic benefits at all.

welp this is aggravating for me. i have had orks for a few editions and i see a bunch of non ork players and new player coming into orks complaining about the veteran ork players.

never mind we have played orks longer then any of the newbies and understand the strengths and weaknesses of the faction and can understand with what we have seen so far that while we did get some good stuff we have also been shafted with other things, oh no, we are whiners when GW gives us a half effort codex.

see how annoying it is for us veterans for all you newbies to orks not "getting it"?

Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.

People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.

This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.

Tone it down, figure out how to work with what good things you got (which is a TON) and move on. Stop whining, the codex is written and nothing will change for at least a few weeks for the errata and faq.

Codex shifted semi-decent(as in maybe avoid wipeout) build and into another of about same level while killing the original. Orks are still bottom tier only ahead grey knights so not much orks got. And if you aren't owning traktor kannons(Which were worthless before) and evil sun walkers you need to go shopping a lot.

The codex was just one exercise of GW figuring what they want to sell next. No more boyz sales needed so let's get them more mek guns(costing ridiculous amount) and walkers. Neither which players generally had in spades.

If you wanted codex where you might have at least 40% win rate with number of useful builds you didn't get it. But sure enjoy losing most games with your evil sun walkers if that's your cup of tea. Others might want to have other kind of builds and want to win more than once in a blue moon.

tneva82 wrote:
Codex shifted semi-decent(as in maybe avoid wipeout) build and into another of about same level while killing the original. Orks are still bottom tier only ahead grey knights so not much orks got. And if you aren't owning traktor kannons(Which were worthless before) and evil sun walkers you need to go shopping a lot.

The codex was just one exercise of GW figuring what they want to sell next. No more boyz sales needed so let's get them more mek guns(costing ridiculous amount) and walkers. Neither which players generally had in spades.

If you wanted codex where you might have at least 40% win rate with number of useful builds you didn't get it. But sure enjoy losing most games with your evil sun walkers if that's your cup of tea. Others might want to have other kind of builds and want to win more than once in a blue moon.

You are going to have to prove that one.

Yes they are not broken but bottom tier? You think they cant win against space marines? IF GK are the lowest of the low how do they fair against demons? After watching a bat rep of Khorne Demons vs a stompa and goffs (both ridiculous lists) I think your estimation is off and completely knee jerk because you didnt get what you wanted. Tough luck buttercup. Suck it up, find what you can do to make the 'dex good because from what I see, its mid tier which is where i wish ALL armies to be. Then the game is actually a challenge.

 Lysenis wrote:


Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.

People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.

oh, lets imagine nothings wrong and be all "wow, im sure glad GW farted in my general direction" "sniff sniff" "man, im so glad for suppar.

This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.

false equivalency. FW doesnt sell well mainly for its high prices...and also with a new edition and FW it staying in 7th (wich got a realy bad repuation due to GWs part) its not surprising they dont sell well.
personaly i am fine if FW flops, but thats my hate boner for all thing spacemarine produced by GW/FW showing.

but in all seriosness, you seem to be only paying attention to some of us. i tink we are getting some buffs, but nerfs in other areas. the problem is that the stuff that looks like its getting nerfed was the only thing that was keeping us barely alive with an index.

so we will get more precise ideas of how orks will do after we get the codex and play it for ourselves. but we are not gonna let up on any negatives we find. sure someone might get discouraged, but thats mainly anybody that is convinced by public opinion, and aslo the person who thinks they can get easy wins with the new codex. anybody interested in the hoby side will just buy the models. those who have a true passion for getting into orks will get into it.

text removed.
Reds8n

fair enough Reds8n. i guess what i mean is that if your here just to complain about our "whining" then maybe you should find something more constructive to add to the conversation.

geargutz wrote:

 Lysenis wrote:


Oh absolutely I get it but unless your goal is to be the ONLY ork players around, tone it down.

People read this and react accordingly. Oddly enough some people take what is said on dakkadakka at face value, fools that they could be and this puts them off from either starting the hobby, enjoying the game, or even give it a glance.

oh, lets imagine nothings wrong and be all "wow, im sure glad GW farted in my general direction" "sniff sniff" "man, im so glad for suppar.

This is EASILY proved by threads like this about Horus Heresy Adeptus Titanicus because some people only saw a price tag and not what you got for that tag. Primarily 2/3rds a standard army for that game. Pretty sure 2/3rds of an 40k army is more expensive yet people read this and make their purchasing decision. OH and that 2/3rds comprises of models you wont need more than what you got. Sure you can get one more Warlord but thats just pure excess at best. Now I have to work far harder to drum interest into the game thanks to threads just like this.

false equivalency. FW doesnt sell well mainly for its high prices...and also with a new edition and FW it staying in 7th (wich got a realy bad repuation due to GWs part) its not surprising they dont sell well.
personaly i am fine if FW flops, but thats my hate boner for all thing spacemarine produced by GW/FW showing.

but in all seriosness, you seem to be only paying attention to some of us. i tink we are getting some buffs, but nerfs in other areas. the problem is that the stuff that looks like its getting nerfed was the only thing that was keeping us barely alive with an index.

so we will get more precise ideas of how orks will do after we get the codex and play it for ourselves. but we are not gonna let up on any negatives we find. sure someone might get discouraged, but thats mainly anybody that is convinced by public opinion, and aslo the person who thinks they can get easy wins with the new codex. anybody interested in the hoby side will just buy the models. those who have a true passion for getting into orks will get into it.

text removed.
Reds8n

fair enough Reds8n. i guess what i mean is that if your here just to complain about our "whining" then maybe you should find something more constructive to add to the conversation.

I am, I am advising to tone it down because it not only blocks people from wanting to play the game and ruins peoples enjoyment but it also limits your capabilities to think constructively. Your mind is focused on the Problem not the solution.

If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?

So far Orks are capable and have stratagems let alone Kulturs that other armies DREAM they could of gotten. So, how do we capitalize on this?

Mix armies are going to be the way to go and Mass Shooting Bad Moons and Low shot but high damage Deffskulls will be important, what units mix well with these? What about Evil Sunz? Are they out of the running because they only give bonuses to move? No? Well what do you think can work then?

We know the problem. Lets find the solution.

As for your comment on FW, sure, FW does tend to sell slowly. Thats if this was solely FW and not 3 fantastic models that are dynamic and fun to play with an in depth stratagem far exceeding the lack of factions.

OH and its not a false equivalency. There is a thread on dakka asking if AT18 flopped. There are videos of people saying they wont buy it because its expensive. Then there is the fact I have to combats peoples worries over the game because they heard it was so expensive to get into (false). At best its anecdotal. So complaints DO affect how people react to a thing. Smart people research and if that research says that they will just not have fun because everything is horrible then guess what they wont do.