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 Lysenis wrote:


I am, I am advising to tone it down because it not only blocks people from wanting to play the game and ruins peoples enjoyment but it also limits your capabilities to think constructively. Your mind is focused on the Problem not the solution.

and your mind is focused on complaining about our "whining"

If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?

we will see, but many players do fight against the most brocken armies.

So far Orks are capable and have stratagems let alone Kulturs that other armies DREAM they could of gotten. So, how do we capitalize on this?

oh yes. the issue with other peoeple wishing theyve have out stuff is that it is better...but that doesnt mean much when some of the best strats/etc are for some of the worst units in the game. it seems GW is just putting a screan up to block the fire, and everyone is like "man, that screan is more colorfull then ours!"

Mix armies are going to be the way to go and Mass Shooting Bad Moons and Low shot but high damage Deffskulls will be important, what units mix well with these? What about Evil Sunz? Are they out of the running because they only give bonuses to move? No? Well what do you think can work then?

We know the problem. Lets find the solution.

so when i asked for you to add somehting to the conversation your answer is "what do you think is good?"
answering a question with a question isnt that great of a debate strategy. it just shows the other party has no clue about how to answer the original question. why dont you tell us some solutions/theories? what unit do you think is going to be the best of orks?

edit

OH and its not a false equivalency. There is a thread on dakka asking if AT18 flopped. There are videos of people saying they wont buy it because its expensive. Then there is the fact I have to combats peoples worries over the game because they heard it was so expensive to get into (false). At best its anecdotal. So complaints DO affect how people react to a thing. Smart people research and if that research says that they will just not have fun because everything is horrible then guess what they wont do.

ok, not trying to start a FW discussion here (unless it involves FW ork units), but my 2 cents on this is that the argument of "you dont have to get as much" doesn't hold much water. if FW focused on smaller games then why in the world do they have the biggest and most expensive titans in the game? anyone that gets into the hoby either through 40k or the heresy is going to eventually end up spending alot of money if they want to have a sizable collection, both systems allow for small play and large play (especialy GW sicne they just added killteam). its just that GW, expensive they might be, is still way cheaper then the gack prices FW has.that company can rot for such poor business acumen...sorry, my FW hater was showing again.

If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?

Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to tear their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Storm Raven? Repulsor? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.

Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.

Psychocouac wrote:

If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?

Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to torn their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.

Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.

thank for adding, i was woried i would only be talking to this other guy. yes traktorkanaon look realy great (even if it looks like they wont get clan traits, that a realy big bummer).
i think lootas can work if you keep a grot screen infront of them for "grot shields". i am going to have to test that.

1/2 https://youtu.be/jAPf876wQfE
2/2 https://youtu.be/qSYaAwhNhO4

Here's a page by page review. There's a lot of glare but you can make stuff out, he also reads most things out loud and flips back and forth to check points for every unit.


For example, second video at 0:35 seconds you can see Mek Guns have <CLAN> so they can be included in normal detachments, but they also have GRETCHIN so they don't actually benefit from kultures. Same for Killa Kanz (22m50s)

 lord_blackfang wrote:
1/2 https://youtu.be/jAPf876wQfE
2/2 https://youtu.be/qSYaAwhNhO4

Here's a page by page review. There's a lot of glare but you can make stuff out, he also reads most things out loud and flips back and forth to check points for every unit.


For example, second video at 0:35 seconds you can see Mek Guns have <CLAN> so they can be included in normal detachments, but they also have GRETCHIN so they don't actually benefit from kultures. Same for Killa Kanz (22m50s)

thanks man

geargutz wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:

If the codex is bad, then how can it be used to compete? Is EVERY single game you play going to be against the Ravager list of doom? No,ok what about Mixed Knights? Maybe? Ok, HOW do we combat that?

Yes and Dark eldar have a lot to worry about with those traktor beam that going to torn their flies apart. That weapon is so damn good. Planes? Speeders? Riptide? Coldstar? Hammerhead? Raider and Ravager? Venoms? Wave Serpent? Piranhas? Vipers? Shield captain? Even against the non flyers that auto hit is so damn reliable.

Against knight the army wasn't doing badly because you can swarm them. Now you have even more tools to work with.

thank for adding, i was woried i would only be talking to this other guy. yes traktorkanaon look realy great (even if it looks like they wont get clan traits, that a realy big bummer).
i think lootas can work if you keep a grot screen infront of them for "grot shields". i am going to have to test that.

Lootas can work as long as there are other threats provided by the army.

Dakkajets, Gorkanauts, even Flash Gitz

Options at every turn each benefiting along with the Lootas to be Bad Moons (well except the Flash Gitz)

While something like a Dragsta speed mob with Deff Dredds... Wait...

Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)

Anywho, Dragsta, Deff Dredd, maybe Deffkoptas, SAG and other high attack low amount of shots will want to be in the Deffskulls Detachment.

The Dredd likes that I would think for the save and rerolles.

Hmmm what else.... Oh and I am not checking efficiency. I am not that great for that type of math, I am thinking tactics and board states.

fe40k wrote:

How are we feeling about this now, that the codex is actually starting to leak real information?

...we’ll wait until the codex releases...
...we’ll wait until the faq...
...we’ll wait until CA...
...we’ll wait until next edition...

My take is that the codex is entirely based about Tellyporta, Da Jump, and Evil Suns charging t1/t2; outside of that, the rest was largely nerfed - random units, characters, Boyz, and other; got nerfed for no reason. A few units got buffed; but...

I agree. Overall I think we are one of the few factions to get nerfed with a codex release. We lost a ton of options outside of indexes (that will never be updated), our key troop went up in points (something that happened with no other codex release) and some of units that didn't perform particularly well were also increased in cost.

I see a lot of people online, on here, on Facebook and on YouTube who don't play orks telling me how amazing the codex is but I don't think they have much idea what they're talking about. Outside of a very few, predictable and in my opinion, under powered gimmicks our codex has very little to offer. Our relics are almost universally trash. It seems all well and good getting a trikeboss into melee turn one until you realise he has no invulnerable and a 4+ save.

No doubt we have a few competitive options, but as with most GW releases they have focused on money instead of balance. This does not seem to have the options of Nids and its certainly not as competitive as Imperial Guard, Knights or DEldar. So it'll do little, if anything to shake up the meta.

 Lysenis wrote:

Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)

Why on earth you would WANT to? Wounds to expensive kans. Grots are better. The save is on the unit behind anyway so killa kan's better save is irrelevant. For the screen it's simple matter of "cheaper wound the better". Kans are pretty expensive wounds with some value for killing stuff so why you would trade those rather than 3 pts grots?

tneva82 wrote:

 Lysenis wrote:

Could you use Killa Kans as the Grot shield? Just a thought (and a horrible one when you are using a 40+ point model as a shield but it just came to me)

Why on earth you would WANT to? Wounds to expensive kans. Grots are better. The save is on the unit behind anyway so killa kan's better save is irrelevant. For the screen it's simple matter of "cheaper wound the better". Kans are pretty expensive wounds with some value for killing stuff so why you would trade those rather than 3 pts grots?

also i think a model is removed when you make a 2plus for the strat. if im correct then a whole killakan is removed.

cool, just checking the video links posted earleir. orks boy units
for every 10 boys you xcan take a tankbusta bomb (a 0pt upgrade). (ork boy kits do have that one boy with the big bomb in his hand).grenade strat be good for boyz, but if you have them msu in a truck at least one boy can throw that bomb.

I see a lot of people online, on here, on Facebook and on YouTube who don't play orks telling me how amazing the codex is but I don't think they have much idea what they're talking about. Outside of a very few, predictable and in my opinion, under powered gimmicks our codex has very little to offer. Our relics are almost universally trash. It seems all well and good getting a trikeboss into melee turn one until you realise he has no invulnerable and a 4+ save.

No doubt we have a few competitive options, but as with most GW releases they have focused on money instead of balance. This does not seem to have the options of Nids and its certainly not as competitive as Imperial Guard, Knights or DEldar. So it'll do little, if anything to shake up the meta.

You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)

Nids are the universaly adaptable army. So yes it's a bit normal than every other army can't compete with them in this domain.

Imperial Guard is like one of our nemesis since 4th edition. Nothing new here but still it's better than before with all that moving fast units. You are basically denying them more than one shooting phase. And on top of that we have now access to totally reliable anti tank with shockjump dragsta and traktor beams. You can also send them one gorkanaut or 3 deffdreads in the face TII.

Knights is like the most easy pick with orks. Good luck killing all my models with your castellan dude. In the same time i will be scoring objectives like their is no tomorrow and has long i won't be wiped good luck with the score.

DEldar is maybe the second easiest target. All your units fly? Great i have autohit weapons tha wreck fly units. You give me -1 to hit? Oh ok then here is my stratagem to shoot with no modifier and proc DDD on 5+. You want to Vect it? Yeah go for it i can have far more CP than you. You have great CC units? Would be a shame if i have even better ones. Wounding me always on 4+? Cool i am used to heavy bolter fire and such.


The one and only army i see we'll have some difficulty will forever be the Tau.

And remember with knights in the meta all army can't really focus on anti swarm units because they are so common now and: we don't have problem against knights if the list is build properly.

Psychocouac wrote:
You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)

Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.

tneva82 wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:
You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)

Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.

Because maybe clearing chaff with that many anti infantry weapons is hard?

Rolling over the average? Sure with like 21" range of move and then 12" of charge which can be rerolled one or two dice. And for the "slowest vehicles" remember there is a stratagem that allow to charge with 3D6 (rerollable) and cause mortal wounds on 2+.

What has flat 12" charge? But okay let's take 12" moving unit. Evil sun it's 12"+3+3d6=25.5. Looks like T1 charge right? 24" between deployment zones right?

WRONG!!!!!!!!

You do know there's no requirement to deploy to deployment line right? I don't even remember when I last faced army that didn't out h2h orks and didn't have like 28"+ minimum if I had anywhere near that could charge like 26". And of course 28" isn't furthest he can deploy. And that's on the most likely T1 deployment. If you deploy from short edges you can easily be like 38" away from the enemy...Good luck T1 charging that one.

But sure assume that you are always playing against idiot who deploys exactly 24.1" away from enemy. That was fashionable about 2 decades ago. After that most players have learned these things called "tactics".

And no you don't clear the chaff line off right away. BS5+ is not good and ork guns aren't that amazing. Sure you clear SOME but you know what? Some isn't enough. Good enemy has double line of chaff. You just ain't going to do that. But of course feel free living in utopia dream land where enemies bring crappy army lists and play like idiots

Psychocouac wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Psychocouac wrote:
You build your list around the wartrike or you don't take it. It's simple at that. If the whole army is charging T1 with him then hopefully he isn't tanky on top of that. You can also make him bad moons for invul 4+ and make him cybork for 5+ feel no pain. (one of the "trash" relic you know.)

Oh gee let's trust for opponent allowing that AND rolling above averages if you plan to get whole army T1 charging. Lol.

Because maybe clearing chaff with that many anti infantry weapons is hard?

Rolling over the average? Sure with like 21" range of move and then 12" of charge which can be rerolled one or two dice.

On what sort of boards are you playing when you van charge your entire army into the enemy on any turn?

What happens when you go second? What happens when you roll average for your Ork shooting and fail to clear the chaff?

If you don't think Traitor Cannons will be errata'd ASAP you're dreaming. And you can't touch those eldar vehicles in cqc.

The 5+++ is probably my favourite relic but that can only be taken once. If you're building a list around the trike you'll need more than one. Which means the others are going to be weak.

tankbustas reroll to hit of 1s instead on failed hits, nerfed
thats realy bad, and they cost the exact same.
i guess GW doesn't want to sell the old models.

edit
at least it sounded like he said "reroll to hit rolls of one"

geargutz wrote:
tankbustas reroll to hit of 1s instead on failed hits, nerfed
thats realy bad, and they cost the exact same.
i guess GW doesn't want to sell the old models.

edit
at least it sounded like he said "reroll to hit rolls of one"

pretty sure he inserted that "of 1" by mistake, the page is blurry but there is no single-character word in there for the 1.

Reminder: if you decide to paint new buggies in sub-assemblies, check multiple times that it is physically possible to glue the parts together afterwards I made a mistake with Shokkjump Dragsta - I should have ignored step 1A (the first one!!!) and leave cabin rear wall separate. After having built the driver and his seat separately, it couldn't fit into cabin anymore.

After trial and error, here are some suggested sub-assemblies for Shokkjump Dragsta:

Rear section:
Cabin rear wall, spoiler supports, rear axis (parts 46, 07, 09, 20, 09, 18, 19). Optionally spoiler itself, hanging gretchin crew, cabin support and rokkits (parts 51, 37-41, 55, 08,). You may want to trim the pegs on cabin rear wall (part 46) for better fit.

Engine
Parts 03, 04, 05, 49, 31.

Cabin seat and ork driver
Seat (53, 54), ork driver (32-36),

You may also want to paint side exhausts separately and you can glue Kustom Shokk Rifle onto left exhaust.

buff=komandoes, 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)

im just gonna add these as i listen to this guy. hes reading from the codex, its hard for me to see with the quality of video i have so i take evrything he says. its possible hes flubbing what he says.

edit also komandoes are 8pts now. now besides cp farming there is no reason to take boyz over komandoes lol.

I think the real asnwer to this two oage argument is somewhere in between.

Honestly, I've been doing some thinking and boyz are still very much powerful. I even figured out if I get rid of my painboy and replace him with the cheaper weirdboy I can run a snakebites detachment for free 6 up fnp anyway... so no idea what gw was thinking of there. The points increase honestly wasn't needed as it's not going to stop people from bringing boyz and evens out when they remove elites and replace them with the cheaper weirboyz who do all the same stuff as before but with powers. All the points increase did was hurt the casual players.

Our points on a few things are still high I agree... we should always have the cheaper units as we're very much a glass cannon army in 8th edition. We pay way too high for shooting.... we pay double for twinlinked weapons still (the only codex that does this).

However, I feel we can make this work. We won't win any imperial soup tournaments but if you're smart about mixing detachments I think we can pull through for another 6 years.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Question regarding the Mek guns...do other armies have artillery or tank units that cannot get chapter traits? How common is this?

Looks like they are being treated the same as auxiliary units elsewhere (AM and Tau codexes come to mind) where they do not get traits as a result. Also SM of all kinds only get chapter traits on their infantry, bikers and dreads so it is a pretty common thing overall.

nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts)

edit
also scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta

Guys, have the Power levels leaked out already? I've been watching some of the reviews, but some of them are still missing.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Every other faction got bonuses, they didn't go up in points when they codexes.

Most even got point drops along with their flashy new bonuses.

Yeah, how dare GW learn from past books (see 2843784984945 pages of whining on IG for one) and cost stuff appropriately now instead of making what was already undercosted unit OP then wait months for spring FAQ to fix it. Balance? What's that? If it was bad in a past book, it should be bad here too? Really now?

SM would love to eat 1 point increase on Tactical squad if Chapters now applied to vehicles and you got 3 Chapters worth of stuff in one trait but sure, whatever, let's complain 7 point model with 30 point Ogryn offensive output (or even better, IIRC Ogryns don't get as many attacks as Skarboyz or any traits...) now sucks, because it totally does

 Irbis wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Every other faction got bonuses, they didn't go up in points when they codexes.

Most even got point drops along with their flashy new bonuses.

Yeah, how dare GW learn from past books (see 2843784984945 pages of whining on IG for one) and cost stuff appropriately now instead of making what was already undercosted unit OP then wait months for spring FAQ to fix it. Balance? What's that? If it was bad in a past book, it should be bad here too? Really now?

SM would love to eat 1 point increase on Tactical squad if Chapters now applied to vehicles and you got 3 Chapters worth of stuff in one trait but sure, whatever, let's complain 7 point model with 30 point Ogryn offensive output (or even better, IIRC Ogryns don't get as many attacks as Skarboyz or any traits...) now sucks, because it totally does

i remeber 7th edition. we got the 1st codex. it was very meh. then evryone was like "oh, this just shows that GW is toneing down the game, and the codexs in 7th are gonna be like this". fast forward to necrons and they get the nice new decurian and the codex creap is intense.

fast forward. we get a bunch of codexes in 8th and some are realy op. then ork codex is coming out and its turning out not to be apart of the codex creap, and might turn out supar. and evryone is like "oh, this is how its going to be for 8th with everything being toned down"

ive heard this before. and if CA comes around and there arnt sweeping nerfs for every other codex then us ork players have been shafted yet again. we shall see in CA, but ill expect the worst, becasue GW has done this before.

geargutz wrote:

i remeber 7th edition. we got the 1st codex. it was very meh. then evryone was like "oh, this just shows that GW is toneing down the game, and the codexs in 7th are gonna be like this". fast forward to necrons and they get the nice new decurian and the codex creap is intense.

fast forward. we get a bunch of codexes in 8th and some are realy op. then ork codex is coming out and its turning out not to be apart of the codex creap, and might turn out supar. and evryone is like "oh, this is how its going to be for 8th with everything being toned down"

ive heard this before. and if CA comes around and there arnt sweeping nerfs for every other codex then us ork players have been shafted yet again. we shall see in CA, but ill expect the worst, becasue GW has done this before.

Yeah, I don't know how people can still keep claiming that everything will surely suddenly be perfect as soon as the next book comes out, and if not than with the next next book, and if not that, then surely with the next next next book, despite a 25 year track record of GW being unable to balance their way out of a wet paper bag.

"GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.

How good are tankbuster bomms, especially in comparison to stikkbomms? Is it much of a benefit to "suddenly" have them in Boyz and Kommando mobs?

 lolman1c wrote:
"GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.

So quit the hobby?

 Haighus wrote:
How good are tankbuster bomms, especially in comparison to stikkbomms? Is it much of a benefit to "suddenly" have them in Boyz and Kommando mobs?

Well you can destroy a tank with a tankbuster bomm
(the melta-bomb equivalent for orks), stikkbomms are just frag grenades.

I wanted the tankbuster bomms back for the Kommandos back for 3 codexes long.
Looks like I have at least this to rejoice with this one!
1 of five, better than nothing I think, will have to change a few backpaks...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
"GW is learning from past mistakes" as we're on the 3rd to last codex with only 2 more to go... yes... I see now how this is a good thing for 40k. XD If only 40k players learnt from GW's past mistakes. We have 30+ years of evidence for what GW is capable of.

So quit the hobby?

It's not just a game... It's a community. And I'm the ork player of the community, I would let them down...

but no seriously I hate it when people say "well then just quit" because that doesn't solve anything. The game would be dead if this happened. In addition, it is a community. If I left I would seriously lose like 70% of all my friends. This is like saying "if you don't like my negative comments then just leave the forums!"... why should you? You have some enjoyable aspect that keep you here but you also have some criticisms against people you don;t agree with. Should it mean you give it all up?