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As long as Aeldari Blades get AP-3, and Gaunts become 2ppm. Sounds perfect!

Bharring wrote:
As long as Aeldari Blades get AP-3, and Gaunts become 2ppm. Sounds perfect!

FFS, Hgants and Gargoyles should be 1pts cheap, when the Nids codex came out i email GW a letter about this and stressed my hate for them being so costly...

Kroot should be free then, right?

Jaxler,
Moar serioser now, ASM and Scions do very different jobs. ASM are bullies. Scions are podded threats. ASM typically can't make their charge on the turn the deepstrike, and so usually need to maneuver into position. But with 12" movement, can. Unfortunately, their current ppm makes them far to expensive for what they do. And so many other things do it better.

To better see the difference, consider what happens when Scions get to do their thing, but to a unit it can't kill, vs what happens with ASM. If you're shooting at a Rhino or a Tac Squad or a Reaper squad, Scions do their damage, then the target does it's thing. With ASM, once they get in, they might not do much damage. But the target needs to fall back. Which means no shooting (unless Fly or a stratagem or whatever).

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
They are worth 9 while tacs are worth 10. Real talk man - real talk.

I would do 10pts, cheaper than that and it would be to low.

I know this is kind of a crazy but - catachan infantry out damage 9 point assault marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No one saying they shouldn't be cheaper - they should be 3 -4 points cheaper.

Maybe the problem isnt points tho.... everything is good if points are low enough to make up for poor rules.

Look at the start of 8th, DE Razorflock spam won tournaments with T3, S3 melee units with 0 saves.

Making them a few points cheaper is a good start, but i'd rather them have a couple core rules changes.

I totally agree with you. That's kind the idea for this gak post. LOL. If you make a trash unit cheap enough - it would be playable. Instead of an assault marine being a terror to small infantry (which is should be) their current trash rules being worth about 9 points is the only solution. Also -a unit like a witch - which is also terrible should also get some buffs to IMO. They should get a rule that they always fight first or something.

Yeah,... IDK why they dont just have better melee in general, some type of MoW ability, +1 more attack, or 2 out of 5 can take melee weapons, make them awesome not cheap!

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yeah,... IDK why they dont just have better melee in general, some type of MoW ability, +1 more attack, or 2 out of 5 can take melee weapons, make them awesome not cheap!

Or another solution is to make them 6 points - they are clearly not better than khabalites!

Kroot have a boltgun and 1 S4 attack in melee, lower leadership than Guard, a 6+ save, only move 7”, and lack Fly. Where does that leave them in a 6 point ASM world? 3 ppm?

As a Tyranids player I would rather the cost of other models went up than Hormagants, Termagants, and Gargoyles going down. We can already field an obscene amount of models at 2000 points, and it's not feasible to fill your list with them and get 6 turns in 2.5-3 hours. Dropping the cost of Gaunts to 2PPM would in essence require every Tyranid player run 3 squads of 30. 180 points for 90 bodies? Get out. This isn't fun for us Tyranids players, and it isn't fun for our opponents.

If you want to buff Tyranids there are plenty of good suggestions and possibilities, such as improving our HQ to troop synergy. The Broodlord is an overcosted piece of garbage that folds like a house of cards if something fights it. The Tervigon is a laugh riot of stupidity. Tyrants without wings are awful, and there's really only 2 ways to kit them despite the cornucopia of wargear choices. Let's also remember that our named characters are overcosted too. Old One Eye is flat out bad. The Swarmlord is meh. I could write a long rant about Tyranids but no one ever wants to talk about them. I would also talk about the psychic powers. Dominion is pathetic and no one ever uses it... Paroxysm and Onslaught are super situational. Where is our soulburst power or freaking warp time?

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
While I agree they are garbage I don't think they should be that cheap. Compare them at 5 points to a guardsmen or ork boy. Compared to a boy they would have a massively better armor save, massively improved mobility, massively better at shooting (dinky shooting, but shooting) and to a guardsmen they're far more durable. At 5 points assault marines would flood every table through sheer volume of power armored bodies.

Not even taking into account how radically that would throw off point balance for similar units, it just would be awful to see marines be that cheap. They're at 10 or 11 point unit IMO.

They are worse than tactical in every area but mobility - mobility means donkey balls when you have 2 str 4 attacks. You are out damaged by 4 and 6 point models at that point. ASM are worth 9 points - tacticals 10. Done.

Considering I value them at 10 or 11 points (with jump pack) we are not really disagreeing at all. Mobility always matters because it is what allows you to get to where you need to be and fly helps with this a great deal by allowing you to ignore vertical distances and enemy models. Yes an assault marine would be out damaged by an ork boy with a choppa, but has a 3+ save instead of 6+. Offensive output is not everything. Durability matters and contrary to belief not every single weapon in the game is a disintegration cannon.

You say that, but 3+ armor has become a liability in the costing of marine infantry because of such weapons.

Equal points of ASM and Kroot, after the Tau Commander has shot the ASM, the kroot win. So, obviously, Kroot should cost more ppm than ASM.

After all, every Tau list will have a Tau Commander.

 Billagio wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
I am predicting this discussion will go at least 30 pages.

Ehhh I don't think it's 5pt guardsmen levels of worthy.... Not enough people care about assault marines.

But it will certainly consist of Xeno, Martel and Marmatag arguing about how theyre worse units of IG, DE and CWE under circumstances that never happen and completely ignore other armies with similar roles and worse options

Don't forget their lil buddy SF.

Bharring wrote:
Umm.. because 3+ beats teeshirt save?

I mean, do we really need to spell out why an Ork Boy should be cheaper than an Assault Marine?

No gak, im saying that a 3+ save is worth more than 1 point

 Marmatag wrote:
As a Tyranids player I would rather the cost of other models went up than Hormagants, Termagants, and Gargoyles going down. We can already field an obscene amount of models at 2000 points, and it's not feasible to fill your list with them and get 6 turns in 2.5-3 hours. Dropping the cost of Gaunts to 2PPM would in essence require every Tyranid player run 3 squads of 30. 180 points for 90 bodies? Get out. This isn't fun for us Tyranids players, and it isn't fun for our opponents.

If you want to buff Tyranids there are plenty of good suggestions and possibilities, such as improving our HQ to troop synergy. The Broodlord is an overcosted piece of garbage that folds like a house of cards if something fights it. The Tervigon is a laugh riot of stupidity. Tyrants without wings are awful, and there's really only 2 ways to kit them despite the cornucopia of wargear choices. Let's also remember that our named characters are overcosted too. Old One Eye is flat out bad. The Swarmlord is meh. I could write a long rant about Tyranids but no one ever wants to talk about them. I would also talk about the psychic powers. Dominion is pathetic and no one ever uses it... Paroxysm and Onslaught are super situational. Where is our soulburst power or freaking warp time?

How else am i going to use all 100 gants, 90 hgants, 40 goyles, and 60 stealers in a 2k game then?

You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Do they sell table width brushes?

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

This is why ig is still crushing it in flgs.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

If your turn 1 takes more than an hour we will be having words about your play speed flg or not.

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
You know if you people really want to play with all those models you could you know just play a 3k game instead of making every model worth 0.X of a point this is supposed to be warhammer 40000, not Epic 40000.

You sure dont know a joke when you see it! my 1st point was Tgants, Goyles and Hgants are not really priced well to each other, you dont see goyles for good reasons other than fun games.

Hey I'm down to bring an 8 knight list to a 2k game but damn do I feel sorry for ork and nid players against thatgame time turn clock

Not everyone is on a time clock, what like 1% the players plays in tournaments? Most games are not on the tournament tables.

If your turn 1 takes more than an hour we will be having words about your play speed flg or not.

My turn doesnt, its like 15min dude, you never played with me, so stop acting like you know me. .. some of us know how to play hordes.

But there is a difference in rushing a game and sitting having a fun time with liked minded people, if i take 5min longer to talk to you and enjoy the game, whats wrong with that? If you cant enjoy a game with me, then why play with you?

Only if I get 1 pt guardsmen in my deathwatch lists.

Assault marines are just a weapon swap with tactical marines with a free deep strike option. They should be a point higher than whatever the tactical marines is.

 ChargerIIC wrote:
Only if I get 1 pt guardsmen in my deathwatch lists.

Assault marines are just a weapon swap with tactical marines with a free deep strike option. They should be a point higher than whatever the tactical marines is.

Free Deep Strike option with that statline?
You aren't serious are you?

Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

It wont mess them up at all tho, Hormas have more melee, better melee rules (6" pile in/consolidate) and moves a bit faster than Tgants, Goyles having Jump/DS and a gun is about as equal to Hgants, they should only be 1pt more for Fly over Tgants anyways. They really need to by 5ppm, 6ppm is to much. Yes i understand its 1ppm difference, but when you are talking about units like gants, 12 is always better than 10, when you are taking 100pts for 1 unit thats 20 vs 16, thats enough to gain the bonus now. Also they are NOT Troops, so Hgants and Goyles being 5ppm wont hurt each other.


Edit: the idea they can make other units -1 to hit is nice.. but in practice its rules bloat that will never work, you need to get the unit into melee, hit them in melee and kill wound something, then that unit is -1 to hit, most of the time theyw ill be -1 to hit against the goyles and just kill them with return fire, if you charge a knight you wont do wounds, 6's to wounds with 0ap... yeah ok gl, with 20 goyles you will do 0.7 wounds...... lol. Against Infantry like Cultist, IG, Orks, etc.., they will just not care b.c you are charging into hordes with a worst horde unit.

One way to show how bad Assault Marines are is to look at their Primaris equivalent, Reivers. ASM with Jump Packs (for Deepstrike) cost 80 points for 5 dudes, whereas Reivers with Grav Chutes (their Deepstrike gear) cost 100, but those 20 points get you a unit that can potentially actually do its job. I think giving Assault Marines a slight point decrease (from 13ppm to 10 ppm base) and giving them 2 attacks base would do wonders for making them a viable alternative to Reivers. TBH Reivers don't appear in a lot of top tier lists either, but to me they are what Assault Marines wish they were. I'm honestly not sure what else you could really buff on Assault Marines.

As for Tacticals, they should cost 11, not 13 per model. And Scouts should cost 9-10. Tacticals would still suck even at that point cost, but they would suck a little less. Marines in general are kind of struggling right now (I should know, I play Dark Angels), and our only real hope is that Chapter Approved gives us some kind of fixes (probably just going to be points adjustments though).

Edit for added point: Actually another thing that might help Marines, including Tacticals, Assault, and others, would be to bring the cost of most of the special and heavy weapons down. Plasma is okay, but Grav should be 12, Flamers should be 5, and Meltas should be 13. Multimeltas should be like 20, Heavy Flamers should be 12, Gravcannons should be 20. The other heavies are probably fine.

Negative, leave as is.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Well this whole thread isn't serious.

A Gargoyle is 6ppm for 1x shot at 12" (pistol) with BS4+, garbage strength 3 attack in melee. And, it has a 6+ save.

Saying they play like 6ppm models is absurd because they are superior to gargoyles, which are very similar 6ppm models.

gargs are pretty bad but what would you cost them? 5 points?

I'm not sure. The problem is dropping their cost to 5ppm kind of screws up Hormagants which are priced at 5ppm, and don't have access to wings.

My personal preference, again, is to increase the cost of most infantry & troops, rather than lower the cost of Tyranid troops. There are enough bodies already in the game at 2000 points. Just affect change on the ones that are way too strong.

Giving Gargoyles poisoned 4+ or poisoned 3+ weapons might be helpful. If i had to make a change that wasn't points based.

They would be a lot better if they could take spine fists. Lock a unit up and hit it with pistols and cc attacks. I also like the poison 4+ idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
One way to show how bad Assault Marines are is to look at their Primaris equivalent, Reivers. ASM with Jump Packs (for Deepstrike) cost 80 points for 5 dudes, whereas Reivers with Grav Chutes (their Deepstrike gear) cost 100, but those 20 points get you a unit that can potentially actually do its job. I think giving Assault Marines a slight point decrease (from 13ppm to 10 ppm base) and giving them 2 attacks base would do wonders for making them a viable alternative to Reivers. TBH Reivers don't appear in a lot of top tier lists either, but to me they are what Assault Marines wish they were. I'm honestly not sure what else you could really buff on Assault Marines.

As for Tacticals, they should cost 11, not 13 per model. And Scouts should cost 9-10. Tacticals would still suck even at that point cost, but they would suck a little less. Marines in general are kind of struggling right now (I should know, I play Dark Angels), and our only real hope is that Chapter Approved gives us some kind of fixes (probably just going to be points adjustments though).

Edit for added point: Actually another thing that might help Marines, including Tacticals, Assault, and others, would be to bring the cost of most of the special and heavy weapons down. Plasma is okay, but Grav should be 12, Flamers should be 5, and Meltas should be 13. Multimeltas should be like 20, Heavy Flamers should be 12, Gravcannons should be 20. The other heavies are probably fine.

10 points is where marines start to not suck. Start there. Or take a look at the gaggles of threads about how to fix marines. 2W 2A at 14 points fixes them. Making primaris like 3w 3A at 20. People are just afraid to make marines actually worth their points. It is a fascinating thing.