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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, any of my characters, or anything, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Marines can't really do that in a TAC list. I don't dare bring aggressors for example, because dissy cannons exist. Sisters are much better against infantry than marines are atm.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, any of my characters, or anything, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Marines can't really do that in a TAC list. I don't dare bring aggressors for example, because dissy cannons exist.

Surely you can kill 30 guardsmen, though? Your firepower is roughly the same as sisters minus about 33% (since that's the relative points cost roughly), so the 40-50 I kill can be 25-35.

Okay. So let's say you have 100 Tactical Marines, and 50 survive to reach Rapid Fire range (and you inflicted no casualties on the way in).

That's 100 shots.
200/3 hits.
400/9 wounds.
800/27 dead.

So yeah, using what's generally considered a pretty poor unit, and one that gets half-wiped out, you can still punch a 30-man hole in the Infantry.

What do your lists consist of, Martel?

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

You can in melee, if you get units like DC into melee with double attacks stratagem its not to hard, some with Genestealers, even Harlequins, Wyches, etc.... Out shooting 120 models is harder, you can get more melee than shooting if you do it well, units some units have 5 attack per model, and if you can double attack like most codex's are able too, then you can easily wipe out 2 squads without even trying on 1 charge. Most armies also have sometype of relic or way to stop over watch as well.

It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

It's functionally impossible, because if I choose to move less distance to set up a jump OVER them on the next turn, I get FRFSFed, and then they charge ME, preventing a charge the next turn.

Just think about moving your guardsmen up to about 11-13" away from the ASM and stopping there. That's all it takes to ruin any jump unit.

You can in melee, if you get units like DC into melee with double attacks stratagem its not to hard, some with Genestealers, even Harlequins, Wyches, etc.... Out shooting 120 models is harder, you can get more melee than shooting if you do it well, units some units have 5 attack per model, and if you can double attack like most codex's are able too, then you can easily wipe out 2 squads without even trying on 1 charge. Most armies also have sometype of relic or way to stop over watch as well.

The FAQ killed DC dead. I can't wait till turn 2; I'm being tabled quickly.

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. So let's say you have 100 Tactical Marines, and 50 survive to reach Rapid Fire range (and you inflicted no casualties on the way in).

That's 100 shots.
200/3 hits.
400/9 wounds.
800/27 dead.

So yeah, using what's generally considered a pretty poor unit, and one that gets half-wiped out, you can still punch a 30-man hole in the Infantry.

What do your lists consist of, Martel?

Back when I was still trying to use jumpers? It seemed to change every game. Never seemed to matter. Hard to remember now. I gave up on all jump units after the FAQ for the most part.

Sisters are a horrible example, because they have scout moves fire points and acts of faith.

You can in essence waddle into range on turn 0, soulburst 2 units, and fire 4x with those 2, which are much cheaper than marines.

And your soulbursting happens before the movement phase, meaning you can more effectively deep strike, should you chose to.

If marine rhinos had fire points and could scout move, coupled with the ability to soulburst at least 2 squads to shoot before turn 1, they would be competitive versus IG.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

40 pts. Not 40 guardsmen. 585 pts of marines kills 10 guardsmen in cover outside rapid fire. That's less than a 10% return.

What are you running,Martel? No jump pack units as a BA player, and you say you don’t have any dakka to remove some Guardsmen either? And your whole army gets tabled so quickly you can’t wait for turn 2 to charge anything?

meleti wrote:
What are you running,Martel? No jump pack units as a BA player, and you say you don’t have any dakka to remove some Guardsmen either? And your whole army gets tabled so quickly you can’t wait for turn 2 to charge anything?

I have dakka, but guardsmen are largely immune to marine dakka. Because there's not enough of it.

My CURRENT lists are soup and have no jump units save a single captain. So they are useless as a discussion point. I'm using guardsmen and Russes now, because I have no choice.

Previously, my jump lists used turn 1 DC to do the job. That's gone now, thanks to fething Tyranid players, leaving BA with basically no choices vs screens.

It's been discussed to death in the marine thread. There is no real efficient marine weapon vs guardsmen because of the cost of marines. DC were close, but FAQ killed them.

"and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps."

Is that before or after they die in transit?

Marmatag wrote:Sisters are a horrible example, because they have scout moves fire points and acts of faith.

You can in essence waddle into range on turn 0, soulburst 2 units, and fire 4x with those 2, which are much cheaper than marines.

And your soulbursting happens before the movement phase, meaning you can more effectively deep strike, should you chose to.

If marine rhinos had fire points and could scout move, coupled with the ability to soulburst at least 2 squads to shoot before turn 1, they would be competitive versus IG.

I explicitly only used acts of faith on the Seraphim and Celestine to move, and didn't even count Celestine's shooting.
Furthermore, I never once mentioned Repressors, as I do not in fact use any (nor do I own any). I run a foot horde, but include two Immolators for my melta Dominions (whose shooting was also omitted because they typically fire at the enemy tanks). I also included only the 14 bolt pistol shots from the Seraphim, as the melta pistols are usually firing at tanks, and the sergeant's plasma pistol is flexible so I just assumed it would fire at a tank is well. I made 0 use, in that math, of the Sororitas's differences from Space Marines, save to get the Seraphim Squad in range (which is possible even in Codex: Space Marines, depending on how precisely far apart the deployment zones are).

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

40 pts. Not 40 guardsmen. 585 pts of marines kills 10 guardsmen in cover outside rapid fire. That's less than a 10% return.

I don't know if you saw the math I did, but I used almost my entire army to punch a hole in that screen, because I know that if my Seraphim and Celestine can get amongst the big guns behind the line, then I've caused enough havoc to win the game and spared myself the pain of those guns firing. Stop thinking in terms of points returns and start thinking of winning games. Your advantages over guard are not in exchanges of long-range gunnery volleys like napoleonic troops, but rather in force concentration. Focus your entire 2k into wiping out 40 guardsmen in the shooting phase, if necessary, then charge through the gap in the charge phase to touch the big guns. Game over, because his only real offensive output are his big guns, and either they're firing at your ultra-durable assault unit (e.g. Celestine's 11 wounds +respawns) or they're going to get wrecked. Easy.

I have little sympathy for people complaining about Tyranids though honestly. We have a decent codex but it's not even close to top tier.

Yeah, they know that too. They've got multiple layers guarding those tanks, and even if I touch a couple in CC, they fall back and they've got 12 more tanks. It's a simple numbers game they win every time.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

 Marmatag wrote:
I have little sympathy for people complaining about Tyranids though honestly. We have a decent codex but it's not even close to top tier.

Abuse of it got my army nerfed into oblivion. That's all, not the actual codex.

You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

I'm using a vet squad with stormbolters now, but they still suck ass compared to sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

I don't think the Castellan can kill IG quickly enough, honestly. They can just ignore it and accept a loss of a 90-110 pt tank every turn. They still win the race. Being undercosted is the ultimate equalizer against units like that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

This is why I took about 33% off of the Sister's numbers: to account for the fact that not only are Tactical Marines worse than Sororitas by about 33%, but even if you focus exclusively on better-than-tactical-marines shooting, you still won't be as good.

Martel732 wrote:Yeah, they know that too. They've got multiple layers guarding those tanks, and even if I touch a couple in CC, they fall back and they've got 12 more tanks. It's a simple numbers game they win every time.

40 guardsmen is 1/3rd of their entire complement, so if you focused your fire right, you should be able to clear a lane. Stop smattering your firepower all across his line and FOCUS! Plus, if they have more than 2 squads in front of a tank, then they can't physically stop you from touching the tank in the assault phase assuming a 12" regular Dawn of War deployment zone, since the base with of a guardsmen is less than 1", so either the second rank of guardsmen are touching the 6" long tank, in which case being in base with them is the same as being within base of the tank, or they're not, and have left you space to fly in between. Remember, even if you just wipe out the front line of guardsmen, your charge with Celestine and Seraphim (or ASM & Captain) will wipe out a few of the second-line guardsmen, and if they're as tightly packed as they have to be to put multiple layers of more than 4 squads in front of their tanks, then you'll be able to consolidate into the gaps and tie up the tanks anyways.

Really, it isn't hard, at all. I do it all the time. I feel like I have to draw you a picture, lol.

It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

You have 6" of extra movement in the fight phase as a Fly model, with a few easily circumvented restrictions, plus a 2d6" charge, plus a 12" move. And you even have 1" of leeway after all that, because you don't have to base them, merely get within 1". They can dictate the starting conditions of the engagement, but you control what 10 man guard squads are wiped out in your shooting phase. Concentrate your force, focus on the path you need to take to get the enemy tanks, wipe out the 40 guardsmen in the way (seriously, I doubt he's fitting more than 4 squads in front of his tanks unless you're playing Vanguard Strike and he castled in the far corner or something) and then go boop the tanks. You can even deal with a 5th and 6th squad in the way with clever charges and positioning, since your models have fly.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

Yes, but that's also a fairly obvious place for ALL YOUR BULLETS to go, so you wipe out the guardsmen, then charge 2d6" over/through the gap, spending a CP roll if necessary.

Martel732 wrote:
And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Yes. A lot is running on 1st turn in 40k in general, Guard or no.

Martel732 wrote:
Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

No it isn't. Move up to 1" away from the guardsmen, use shooting to blenderize the guardsmen behind that line between you and the tanks, and then charge over that line. It's not rocket science.

The units with jump packs have very little shooting to speak of. Those that might have any, die before they can do as you describe.

The front line of infantry need only stop my movement 12.5" away from the tanks, which is trivial. The second line will not be within consolidation distance of the tank line.

The guard players know this is a jump unit's only hope. They are going to make sure it can never happen during their movement phase. They will get at least one movement phase, because I have no access to turn 1 charge anymore.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It's easy to stop, too. I do it all the time, and it's done to me all the time. The gunline dictates all engagements, because I'm the one desperately trying to base them.

You have 6" of extra movement in the fight phase as a Fly model, with a few easily circumvented restrictions, plus a 2d6" charge, plus a 12" move. And you even have 1" of leeway after all that, because you don't have to base them, merely get within 1". They can dictate the starting conditions of the engagement, but you control what 10 man guard squads are wiped out in your shooting phase. Concentrate your force, focus on the path you need to take to get the enemy tanks, wipe out the 40 guardsmen in the way (seriously, I doubt he's fitting more than 4 squads in front of his tanks unless you're playing Vanguard Strike and he castled in the far corner or something) and then go boop the tanks. You can even deal with a 5th and 6th squad in the way with clever charges and positioning, since your models have fly.

Martel732 wrote:
Again, you need only occupy the narrow strip in the area that gets the ASM closer to the tanks on a max move.

Yes, but that's also a fairly obvious place for ALL YOUR BULLETS to go, so you wipe out the guardsmen, then charge 2d6" over/through the gap, spending a CP roll if necessary.

Martel732 wrote:
And if the IG gets first turn, it becomes even worse because they can spread out outside the DZ.

Yes. A lot is running on 1st turn in 40k in general, Guard or no.

Martel732 wrote:
Punching holes takes place AFTER you have to move. It's too late by then.

No it isn't. Move up to 1" away from the guardsmen, use shooting to blenderize the guardsmen behind that line between you and the tanks, and then charge over that line. It's not rocket science.

You act like you've never killed Assault Marines before.

Seriously we've had this thread. It's a pointless unit entry and you're better off with spending +2 points a model for Vanguard.

All of this holds true for vv, too. Except they give up points even faster.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It takes 45 boltgun shots at BS 3 to remove 10 guardmen in cover. 67.5 shots if they pop that stupid cover strat.

Outside rapid fire range, which must be assumed turn 1, that's 585 points of marines minimum to remove 40. Combine this with poor infantry clear options throughout the codex for the most part, and your have a no-win scenario.

If they've got cover across the entire width of the deployment zone, you've terrain problem. If you're attacking a spot with cover, then that's bad play on your part.

Pick a spot of their entire deployment zone without cover, wipe out 30-ish of the guardsmen near it, and then fly there, since you can fly over terrain and peeps.

Also 585 points of marines to remove 40 should be trivial, then, to blow open a hole in the enemy army. Heck, you spend 1170 points on just barebones marines and can wipe out eighty guardsmen a turn before morale. If that doesn't punch a hole in the enemy lines for your other 1k points to go steaming through, IDK What will.

Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

Castellan is the answer to all problems currently.

 Marmatag wrote:
Just end this thread, 6 point assault marines is ridiculous.

They would just walk their marines across the table and win every game against me. They could literally take only assault marines, jump pack captains, and librarians on bikes, and win every game against me.

I mean seriously, 3 maxed out spearheads gets you 180 assault marines, 3 captains with jump packs, for under 1500 points. You could take Azrael with them and they'd all have 4++.

The only reason Orks aren't crushing literally everyone is because their dudes have a 6+ save. And even then, a proper Green Tide is hard to deal with, it's just a matter of time constraints, and the fact that volume shooting exists (hello, baneblade variants, for ex).

They are far superior to a 6 point unit.

Match up an assault marine versus a Gargoyle. (6 points). You win every time.

Oh my god, a Marines Suck thread that's so absurd it has caused a schism in the faith!

Soon we will have the Reformed Church of Marines Suck and the Orthodox Marine Suckists running about having holy wars with each other.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I play vs 120 guardsmen a lot. I can't kill that in 6 shooting phases with no return fire. Statistically speaking.

How are 120 guardsmen getting set up such that you can't force a hole for your ASM? I know when I play my Sororitas against IG I can reliably clear 40-50 a turn with shooting alone. (15-16 from the Heavy Bolter Rets, 13 or so from 3 troops squads outside rapid fire, 8 or so from the 2 Dominion immolators' immolation flamers, and 2 or so from the Seraphim themselves. Disregarding Celestine, that's almost 40 right there, and I still haven't fired the Dominions themselves, the 3 other troops squads, or any of my characters, and this is assuming that no one got in 12" except fast units like the Immolators and Seraphim, who can each go 24" before/during the first turn).

Killing ~40-50 guardsmen turn 1, if I concentrate my fire on the appropriate area of the battlefield, usually punches a hole for Celestine + Seraphim to fly in/over and start to destroy things.

Well Sisters get more Storm Bolters for the price, so it isn't a wonder you can clear them slightly better. The only real source of THAT many Storm Bolters for Marines is either Sternguard or Command Squads.

I'm using a vet squad with stormbolters now, but they still suck ass compared to sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
You absolutely need to soup in a Castellan, you will have a much easier time with those IG players.

I don't think the Castellan can kill IG quickly enough, honestly. They can just ignore it and accept a loss of a 90-110 pt tank every turn. They still win the race. Being undercosted is the ultimate equalizer against units like that.

More realistically its its 2 tanks a turn on average. They have some tanks that cost 200+ (like command russes). After turn 3 there are no tanks left. Trust me - get the castellan.Throw it in with your BA and you will start to win games.

I don't see the hoopla around the castellan myself. Seems like marginal shooting for the incredible price tag.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Lol they can actually get that with a aegis defense line. It's actually pretty OP - a guy at my store does it. He's a genius.

I'd love it if the guard players around here reduced their CPs and firepower by a whole detachment just to get an Aegis Line. Though you still have to be within 1" of it to get cover, so units with Fly can safely fly over them (after your shooting wipes out the units not in cover of course).

Dafuq? AMs should start at 15 pts +15 for the VS!