Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

Martel732 wrote:
Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

Wrapping around is really important.

With FLY you can pile in & consolidate over & through enemy models, making it easier to wrap around.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
...to the point where I'd consider 10 Seraphim to be better at assault than 10 Daemonettes...

It takes what, two, three daemonettes to out-assault a full 10 seraphim against a MEQ statline?

<FLY> is excellent though.

The real way Assault does damage in 8th edition (at least for small, fairly low-damage squads like 10-girl daemonettes) isn't by actually doing raw damage, but by shutting down large swaths of the opponent's shooting so that the big, actually strong, attackers can do the real work. The sooner a minor assault unit can shut down the enemy's shooting, the longer the major assault units survive to wreck face. Being able to shut down shooting, for a unit like Daemonettes and Seraphim, is of much greater value than the sum of the "points per swing" killed or whatever.

And thats why i still take 1 unit of Hgants, 6" pile in and 6" consolidate can be game changing.

I bring about 40 hormagants right now. Usually they just die, but one in every 5 games or so they do some hero gak.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

Wrapping around is really important.

With FLY you can pile in & consolidate over & through enemy models, making it easier to wrap around.

But flying shooters don't care.

Yeah, FLY is a very strong keyword.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
You dont take meltas on sisters lol you take HB's and SB's, Melta Guns are not good at all this edition.

But if I take SB that are just 2 points then my bad faith argument doesn't work .

Martel732 wrote:
Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

I wish doing this cost a command point. its so dumb that armies (guard) can fall back, be ordered back and fire on the assaulter with no penalty. If a players tiers and bubble wraps things appropriatly you just cannot ever reach thier high point units and thanks to falling back you just get tied up forever on wave after wave of basic troops who walk away, set up a few inches out and again bubblewrap so that you cannot get past them.

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
3 attacks per model is rather high.

Genestealers have 3 attacks per model and are T4 with a slower move speed - even with advance - can't deep strike - and have a 5++ instead of a 3+ - for 12ppm.

2 attacks per model seems more fair.

They can also advance and charge, have better melee weapons, can easily go up to 4 attacks, and easy access to +1 to-hit.

Don't undersell Genestealers.

Advancing and charging on an 8" move, compared to a base 12" move with <Fly>?

4 attacks require they be at 10+ capacity, and not guaranteed.

Access to +1 to hit is in the form of a Broodlord, which (a) isn't easy because the broodlord sucks and (b) also isn't easy because the broodlord costs 165 points.

Genestealers are solid. Don't oversell them.

I've stopped taking them all together. For the cost of 20 of them I can have 2 dakka fexen. With Acid maws and -1 to hit from shooting attacks. Much tougher - similar damage output when you combine shooting and cc.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
3 attacks per model is rather high.

Genestealers have 3 attacks per model and are T4 with a slower move speed - even with advance - can't deep strike - and have a 5++ instead of a 3+ - for 12ppm.

2 attacks per model seems more fair.

They can also advance and charge, have better melee weapons, can easily go up to 4 attacks, and easy access to +1 to-hit.

Don't undersell Genestealers.

Advancing and charging on an 8" move, compared to a base 12" move with <Fly>?

4 attacks require they be at 10+ capacity, and not guaranteed.

Access to +1 to hit is in the form of a Broodlord, which (a) isn't easy because the broodlord sucks and (b) also isn't easy because the broodlord costs 165 points.

Genestealers are solid. Don't oversell them.

I've stopped taking them all together. For the cost of 20 of them I can have 2 dakka fexen. With Acid maws and -1 to hit from shooting attacks. Much tougher - similar damage output when you combine shooting and cc.

People think genestealers are awesome. They're good, but not great.

Armies like Tau will rip you apart effortlessly if you are melee Nids.

Nids are currently flat out hard-countered by a few mid-tier and all the top tier meta armies.

I wasn't kidding when I said marines are doing better than Nids, generally speaking.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

I wish doing this cost a command point. its so dumb that armies (guard) can fall back, be ordered back and fire on the assaulter with no penalty. If a players tiers and bubble wraps things appropriatly you just cannot ever reach thier high point units and thanks to falling back you just get tied up forever on wave after wave of basic troops who walk away, set up a few inches out and again bubblewrap so that you cannot get past them.

I wouldn't use Guard as an example. Their big guns (Leman Russes, Basilisks, etc.) can't do that, and their little guys can only do so with an order-it'll generally be available, but it does mean no Take Aim or FRF,SRF on them.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
3 attacks per model is rather high.

Genestealers have 3 attacks per model and are T4 with a slower move speed - even with advance - can't deep strike - and have a 5++ instead of a 3+ - for 12ppm.

2 attacks per model seems more fair.

They can also advance and charge, have better melee weapons, can easily go up to 4 attacks, and easy access to +1 to-hit.

Don't undersell Genestealers.

Advancing and charging on an 8" move, compared to a base 12" move with <Fly>?

4 attacks require they be at 10+ capacity, and not guaranteed.

Access to +1 to hit is in the form of a Broodlord, which (a) isn't easy because the broodlord sucks and (b) also isn't easy because the broodlord costs 165 points.

Genestealers are solid. Don't oversell them.

I've stopped taking them all together. For the cost of 20 of them I can have 2 dakka fexen. With Acid maws and -1 to hit from shooting attacks. Much tougher - similar damage output when you combine shooting and cc.

People think genestealers are awesome. They're good, but not great.

Armies like Tau will rip you apart effortlessly if you are melee Nids.

Nids are currently flat out hard-countered by a few mid-tier and all the top tier meta armies.

I wasn't kidding when I said marines are doing better than Nids, generally speaking.

Yeah I am pretty sure I stopped taking them when I lost half my nid army in over-watch to tau.

I said to myself...well - this doesn't work anymore. Even my ultra marines can gun down a significant amount of steelers in overwatch because I am rerolling all hits. Agressors eat them alive too. Then I just fall back and kill them in my turn.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Too many shooters that can fall back and shoot for that to be reliable, imo.

I wish doing this cost a command point. its so dumb that armies (guard) can fall back, be ordered back and fire on the assaulter with no penalty. If a players tiers and bubble wraps things appropriatly you just cannot ever reach thier high point units and thanks to falling back you just get tied up forever on wave after wave of basic troops who walk away, set up a few inches out and again bubblewrap so that you cannot get past them.

I wouldn't use Guard as an example. Their big guns (Leman Russes, Basilisks, etc.) can't do that, and their little guys can only do so with an order-it'll generally be available, but it does mean no Take Aim or FRF,SRF on them.

fair point. only some models can get the orders to move in. still I have played Guard, deepstriked terminators got off the 9 inch charge into a pair of tanks (spending a command point to get a nice charge). Then the crippled tanks back off, and instead of me being able to stick in... nope everything else opens up and ... well that i feel is a big reason terminators are still pretty weak. Other units that should be strong like my nob bikers, who take large casualties on the way to combat, finally try to get them stuck in ...and units decide to turn thier backs on the nobz and take no casualties as the orks sit idly by and being the gentlemen they are allow the opponents to calmly walk away and give plenty of space for the opponents the now shoot at them.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
3 attacks per model is rather high.

Genestealers have 3 attacks per model and are T4 with a slower move speed - even with advance - can't deep strike - and have a 5++ instead of a 3+ - for 12ppm.

2 attacks per model seems more fair.

They can also advance and charge, have better melee weapons, can easily go up to 4 attacks, and easy access to +1 to-hit.

Don't undersell Genestealers.

Advancing and charging on an 8" move, compared to a base 12" move with <Fly>?

4 attacks require they be at 10+ capacity, and not guaranteed.

Access to +1 to hit is in the form of a Broodlord, which (a) isn't easy because the broodlord sucks and (b) also isn't easy because the broodlord costs 165 points.

Genestealers are solid. Don't oversell them.

I've stopped taking them all together. For the cost of 20 of them I can have 2 dakka fexen. With Acid maws and -1 to hit from shooting attacks. Much tougher - similar damage output when you combine shooting and cc.

People think genestealers are awesome. They're good, but not great.

Armies like Tau will rip you apart effortlessly if you are melee Nids.

Nids are currently flat out hard-countered by a few mid-tier and all the top tier meta armies.

I wasn't kidding when I said marines are doing better than Nids, generally speaking.

Yeah I am pretty sure I stopped taking them when I lost half my nid army in over-watch to tau.

I said to myself...well - this doesn't work anymore. Even my ultra marines can gun down a significant amount of steelers in overwatch because I am rerolling all hits. Agressors eat them alive too. Then I just fall back and kill them in my turn.

Essentially, yes. Aggressors are another example of a hard-counter to genestealers. Or, just custode bikes. Dropping in and annihilating with hurricane bolters.

When the GSC codex drops, my plan is to ally them in as purestrains, spearhead style. Fish for that 6 on cult ambush.

I'll go 11 points for Assault Marines. 10 for the MEQ, and +1 point for a discounted jump pack (discounted because they lose boltguns and objective secured). Either that or chainswords have to really change in stat line.

Rocmistro wrote:
I'll go 11 points for Assault Marines. 10 for the MEQ, and +1 point for a discounted jump pack (discounted because they lose boltguns and objective secured). Either that or chainswords have to really change in stat line.

100+ marines in every army then!

You can already have 100 + marines in every army. It would be so terrible.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You can already have 100 + marines in every army. It would be so terrible.

300+ free points for more gear, etc. Math.

Sorry, I don't see the correlation?

An 11 pt Assault Marine is 5 pts. cheaper than it currently is.

A 10 pt Tac and/or Dev, ergo, is 3 pts. cheaper than it currently is.

If we were to say a "standard" 2k pt. SM army included 40 Tacs/Devs, and 10 Assault Marines, you are saving 170 points (40x3=120,10x5=50) 170 points, at my 10 point price tag, will get you another 17 Astartes, barring any other equipment. Which brings you're total force size to <70 Marines? What is prompting the "100 Marines"! alarm? Is that so terrible?

His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

90 points is a lot...

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

90 points is a lot...

That is how over-pointed a space marine is. It's the main reason you never see space marines on the table.

And no - 90 points isn't a lot. When the eldar codex came out my standard 2k list when down almost 300 points. I wasn't playing dark eldar at the time - but the army I play now which is flyer/raider - warriors/ ravager spam. It went down from the index cost probably about the same. My space marine index to codex saw no change and the standard list I was running with gman and storm ravens has gone up over 100 points.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

90 points is a lot...

That is how over-pointed a space marine is. It's the main reason you never see space marines on the table.

And no - 90 points isn't a lot. When the eldar codex came out my standard 2k list when down almost 300 points. I wasn't playing dark eldar at the time - but the army I play now which is flyer/raider - warriors/ ravager spam. It went down from the index cost probably about the same. My space marine index to codex saw no change and the standard list I was running with gman and storm ravens has gone up over 100 points.

90 points will buy you a squad of Guardsmen and a company commander, even if Guardsmen were 5ppm. Since they're such a terrifying unit when combined with Orders, surely the ability to include a Company Commander and a squad of Guardsmen that you couldn't before will unbalance the entire meta?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

90 points is a lot...

That is how over-pointed a space marine is. It's the main reason you never see space marines on the table.

And no - 90 points isn't a lot. When the eldar codex came out my standard 2k list when down almost 300 points. I wasn't playing dark eldar at the time - but the army I play now which is flyer/raider - warriors/ ravager spam. It went down from the index cost probably about the same. My space marine index to codex saw no change and the standard list I was running with gman and storm ravens has gone up over 100 points.

90 points will buy you a squad of Guardsmen and a company commander, even if Guardsmen were 5ppm. Since they're such a terrifying unit when combined with Orders, surely the ability to include a Company Commander and a squad of Guardsmen that you couldn't before will unbalance the entire meta?

No my friend. You know as well as I do - imperium players just pick infantry squads because they are OP. Do you really think this would change that? Would people start spamming 5 man marine squads if they were 50 points? No...because they can already almost do that with battle sisters. Which the only relevant stat marines have on them is t4 vs t3. That is worth about a point. Not to mention battle sisters have much better equipment options and cheaper hq options. I'd venture to say we already know people wont do that.

I feel like, somehow or other, that it would be a better thing to let horde armies recycle smaller units rather than trying to increase the relative size of Space Marine armies.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
90 points will buy you a squad of Guardsmen and a company commander, even if Guardsmen were 5ppm. Since they're such a terrifying unit when combined with Orders, surely the ability to include a Company Commander and a squad of Guardsmen that you couldn't before will unbalance the entire meta?

EPIC!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

90 points is a lot...

That is how over-pointed a space marine is. It's the main reason you never see space marines on the table.

And no - 90 points isn't a lot. When the eldar codex came out my standard 2k list when down almost 300 points. I wasn't playing dark eldar at the time - but the army I play now which is flyer/raider - warriors/ ravager spam. It went down from the index cost probably about the same. My space marine index to codex saw no change and the standard list I was running with gman and storm ravens has gone up over 100 points.

90 points will buy you a squad of Guardsmen and a company commander, even if Guardsmen were 5ppm. Since they're such a terrifying unit when combined with Orders, surely the ability to include a Company Commander and a squad of Guardsmen that you couldn't before will unbalance the entire meta?

Then they would just buy the Infantry squads instead of the Marine ones...

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

I already spam marines at 13 ppm, taking 70-90 in a 2000 pointer. I'd be taking over 100 if they were 10, it would be a no brainer.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
His point is that if you took a full Company (6xTac squads, 2xDevs, 2xASM), for instance, you can actually have them all in a 2k list - that's only 1300 points of bodies.

It's a poor point, because 100 bodies of Marines with 700 points of support/gear is much worse than 100 bodies of Marines with 1000 points of support/gear. 300 points is quite a lot (+15% current points).

He's saying people would spam marines if they were 10 points. He is wrong. You might see 30 on the table at that price. Which is a savings of about 90 points. With how poorly marines perform do you really think that would be game breaking?

I already spam marines at 13 ppm, taking 70-90 in a 2000 pointer. I'd be taking over 100 if they were 10, it would be a no brainer.

You're not a good example of how this game is generally played. To be completely fair.

I'm not convinced 10 points is a fair price. To me the problem lies with the chapter tactics being mostly garbage and the wargear being generally overcosted.