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Bharring wrote:
At their price, you're getting a 5-man ASM squad for every Centurion.

3 Hurricane Bolters are nice. 18-Naked-Tac-Marine nice. For a little more than 18 naked Tac Marines.

ASM have a huge mobility increase over Assault Cents. Don't get me wrong, there are things Assault Cents can do that ASM can't. They're very different units - you shouldn't be replacing one directly with the other. But there's a much wider array of things those ASM can do that those Cents can't.

You're only ever running them as Raven Guard. So for 1CP the mobility issue is non-existent.

Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

I thought you moved to deathwatch because it wasn't working?

I guess you know where i stand on the codex, then.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

I thought you moved to deathwatch because it wasn't working?

I'm talking about the Vanilla codex in this context. Only one Chapter works. Deathwatch isn't really a Chapter in the same context.

Yeah I moved to Deathwatch, but I'm looking to see what Space Wolves can offer. Outflanking Blood Claws might not be terrible as a distraction after all.

 ChargerIIC wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
They only look like they're in the bottom 10 because you care about them. Most books have at least one entry worse than even them.

They are bad, and the 30% price drop is roughly in line with what's been more seriously suggested here.

\
Can you name me 10 units that are worse?

Tactical Marines
Space Marine Assault Centurions
Tyrannocyte
Grey Knight Paladins
Primaris Reivers (Which perform the same role in the same faction!)
Eldar Nightspinner Tanks (think I got the name right...)
Space Marine Terminators
Eldar Avatar of Kaine
Chaos Space Marines
Space Marine Standard Dreadnought (seriously, 8 wounds and nearly impossible to hide behind terrain. Don't worry though, most configurations will cost more than the more survivable predator)

Assault marines could use a buff, but I think it's more a consequence of them using the overcosted tac marine for their base cost instead of anything wrong with the unit.

The 2 only unit on this list in the same ballpark as assault marines is the tyranocyte and the tactical marine - but the tac marines is clearly better than the ASM. Reivers and Night spinners aren't even bad - nor are dreads - they are close to being middle teir units.

Martel732 wrote:
I guess you know where i stand on the codex, then.

You'll notice I mostly moved on from the Vanilla codex too. Space Wolves look to be interesting though so I might pick them up as a supplement.

Bharring wrote:
"Can you name me 10 units that are worse? I am having trouble thinking of 1."
Amish gives:
Attack Bikers, Hybrid Metamorphs, Vindicators, Penitent engine, Centurion Assault Squad, Hive Crone, Tyrannocyte, Dimachaeron, Wraithknight

Just because, here's 10 more!
1. Storm Guardians
2. Banshees
3. Falcons
4. Necron Monolith
5. Dev Cents
6. Assault Termies
7. Tac Termies
8. Wraithblades
9. Incubi
10. Avatar of Khaine


Most are either the same book or an Eldar book (higher tier)

So two players each just pulled 10 different worse units out of the air. ASM are not bottom 10.

Sidenote: what makes Assault Cents better than ASM? I'd rather have the ASM, myself.

At least half of those units don't even belong in a discussion about worst units in the game. LOL Falcons? Wraithblades? Incubi? Why would you want ASM over assault cents? Assault cents can do some real damage. They are actually one of the better units in the marine codex.



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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I guess you know where i stand on the codex, then.

You'll notice I mostly moved on from the Vanilla codex too. Space Wolves look to be interesting though so I might pick them up as a supplement.

Resist the temptation if you can. Once you go wolf...there is no coming back.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

I thought you moved to deathwatch because it wasn't working?

I'm talking about the Vanilla codex in this context. Only one Chapter works. Deathwatch isn't really a Chapter in the same context.

Yeah I moved to Deathwatch, but I'm looking to see what Space Wolves can offer. Outflanking Blood Claws might not be terrible as a distraction after all.

I could be wrong but I see a lot of UM placing higher than RG in ITC rankings.

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Don't worry - dev cents are about 40 points overcosted base. They are actually worse than assault marines I am afraid. So I have to eat my words a bit here. I almost forget about dev cents they are so bad.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

I thought you moved to deathwatch because it wasn't working?

I'm talking about the Vanilla codex in this context. Only one Chapter works. Deathwatch isn't really a Chapter in the same context.

Yeah I moved to Deathwatch, but I'm looking to see what Space Wolves can offer. Outflanking Blood Claws might not be terrible as a distraction after all.

I could be wrong but I see a lot of UM placing higher than RG in ITC rankings.

No you're seeing more Roboute in ITC rankings. He's the same crutch that Tyranid players had with Tyrants and Mawlocs. Nobody told Tyranid players to hush over their poorly balanced codex though!

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really.

Marines only HAVE one Chapter that works, and that's Raven Guard.

I thought you moved to deathwatch because it wasn't working?

I'm talking about the Vanilla codex in this context. Only one Chapter works. Deathwatch isn't really a Chapter in the same context.

Yeah I moved to Deathwatch, but I'm looking to see what Space Wolves can offer. Outflanking Blood Claws might not be terrible as a distraction after all.

I could be wrong but I see a lot of UM placing higher than RG in ITC rankings.

Ultra marines is the best. They still are. The characters do it.
I can take calgar for a net gain of 5 cp on the guy who takes a captain and turns to chapter master. Calgar is also the best non guilliman assault unit in the codex - which helps because if he can defeat a deamon prince in CC where a Captain just gets folded over - that can win you a game. Also get the best warlord trait. 5+ to regen command points. Which if you get on a roll can mean calgar is fighting twice every turn. Get the best librairan. Not to mention guilliman himself - who isn't any good on a top table but has a newb stomper effect. The end result is space marines are a short range army and they do not benifit from -1 to hit like other armies do. RG basically have to throw the trait away to use their agressor and hellblaster infiltrations. Or they can play gunline with dreads and devestators - hate to break it to you - that army doesn't win.

Oh, I agree. Marines can't gunline past a certain point because other armies can do it better. Marines have to get close to work really well, which is why I tend to think Raven Guard is sort of a red herring.

Maybe run them as the gunline portion of an army, that could work. Personally I can't get past the not being able to shoot if touched thing. I'd rather eat a couple more casualties from gunfire but still be able to function after cc.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can you name me 10 units that are worse? I am having trouble thinking of 1.

Celestian. Imagine an assault marine. Now remove jump pack access, trade -1S -1T for +1A, and then replace the CCW with a bolter for that unit that just got the +1A because why the hell not?
Will you honestly tell me you improved those assault marines, lol ?
Oh I forgot. You also trade chapter tactics with stuff like “a 6++ save that is only useful against weapon with AP-4, because you will use the power armor save instead when AP is -3 or less, and you won't be able to use it against mortal wounds”, or even better , a rule that states that if the opponent has psykers (else the rule is useless), if those psykers have powers that are WC5 (any higher WC and the rule is useless), if those psykers roll exactly 5 when casting their powers (else the rule is useless), then you can dispel the power… if you roll a 6, that is.
NICE!

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Can you name me 10 units that are worse? I am having trouble thinking of 1.

Celestian. Imagine an assault marine. Now remove jump pack access, trade -1S -1T for +1A, and then replace the CCW with a bolter for that unit that just got the +1A because why the hell not?
Will you honestly tell me you improved those assault marines, lol ?
Oh I forgot. You also trade chapter tactics with stuff like “a 6++ save that is only useful against weapon with AP-4, because you will use the power armor save instead when AP is -3 or less, and you won't be able to use it against mortal wounds”, or even better , a rule that states that if the opponent has psykers (else the rule is useless), if those psykers have powers that are WC5 (any higher WC and the rule is useless), if those psykers roll exactly 5 when casting their powers (else the rule is useless), then you can dispel the power… if you roll a 6, that is.
NICE!

1. You'll get Chapter Tactic equivalents with the codex
2. You can give them all Storm Bolters can you not?

The reason I don't think points changes can fix everything is that sometimes a unit is just badly designed.

Most of the space Maine units are just terrible almost regardless of their points cost. All you have to do is look at what the same units were good at in previous editions to see that they really didn't make the transition into 8th very well at all.

Look at attack bikes. Previously, a multi-melta attack bike was a fast mobile unit capable of getting into melta range and potentially killing or significantly damaging a vehicle. In this edition, moving makes them hit on 4s, and you need an average of 3 unsaved multi-melta wounds to kill a rhino. You'd need 7 multi-melta attack bikes to make that happen right now. So the multi-melta attack bike is useless, not because of its points cost, but because it can no longer ever perform it's intended role in 8th edition. It's simply been left behind by the edition, to the point that I'm not sure there is any reasonable points level that would make them competitive. Even if the unit was 40 points I'm not sure anyone would want one.

A much better solution would be to give the bike special rules a allowing it to fire the weapon without penalty, and make multi-meltas scary enough that 1-2 attack bikes stood a chance of doing serious damage.

Make them cheaper to reflect their poor design. Done. What is so hard here?

Martel732 wrote:
Make them cheaper to reflect their poor design. Done. What is so hard here?

The fact that marines shouldn't be cheaper, they should be stronger.

I still think that both tactical and assault marines need to be improved in offense. T4 3+ is a good defensive stat at that cost if it is paired with an equivalent firepower.

If tacts and AM did actually hurt, they would be good.

T4 3+ is poor at their price point.

People have laid out how there is no room to make them stronger. Primaris tried, and made them weaker.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. You'll get Chapter Tactic equivalents with the codex

Maybe.
Doesn't make them less bad in the meantime.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You can give them all Storm Bolters can you not?

Yeah. Or I can take the less expensive Sisters and get a 2 point reduction and Objective Secured instead, at the cost of only 3 storm bolters on a 5 women squad, and some useless CC buff for a unit that has s3 t3 no CCW.


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jcd386 wrote:
A much better solution would be to give the bike special rules a allowing it to fire the weapon without penalty, and make multi-meltas scary enough that 1-2 attack bikes stood a chance of doing serious damage.

Melta weapons need a buff, hard. They now wound anything tougher than a marine on foot on a 3+, the enemy is now even more likely to have an invulnerable save AND an extra save, and to come with -1 to hit, and then if you somehow still manage to wound you won't one-shot things anymore...

Martel732 wrote:
T4 3+ is poor at their price point.

People have laid out how there is no room to make them stronger. Primaris tried, and made them weaker.

Not really, sure they would not be on the higher end as far as durability, but marines are not intended to be bricks, they are meant to be elite shock troops. Like all shock troops, they should hit hard but bleed points faster than other alternatives. So, T4 3+ is fine, but they need to bring the hurt. This indirectly means increasing durability, since if they could have a decent damage, you would actually put them in tranports.

It's not true that there is no room to make them stronger, this is 8th edition, we have bespoken rules, let's use them. The one i proposed before for tacs would make the bolters stronger when in the hands of a tac squad of at least 5 members, which isn't even such an abstract rule since groups of marines implement fire patterns to optimize the firepower.

I think there is definitely design space. Most of the needed changes just involve giving Marines back the things 8th took away.

Letting them ignore the first point of AP would be effective and flavorful, letting them actually be sort of durable again.
Tacking the ultramarine trait onto ATSNKF and figuring out something else for UM to do (better overwatch, probably) would be fine, as it's pretty much exactly what ATSNKF used to do.
Giving Marines a flat extra attack wouldn't break anything. It's the same amount of attacks they used to have after charging. It would also buff SW but they also need one.
Space Maine vehicles could move and fire heavy weapons, and fall back and shoot at -1. It's still not as good as the fly that most other armies have.
Land raiders could move and allow units to disembark. They could do it in every edition before this, and it's basically a 300 point warp time.
Las and melta could do more damage, since SM are designed to bring these weapons in small numbers, and single shot weapons should be devastating when they do make it through. Having them do D6 but never less than 3-4 damage would be a good start. Making them a flat 5 probably wouldn't break anything either.
Rhinos could have fire points again.
Primaris could go into any transport but take up 2 spaces.
Bolters could be AP1.
Killshot could only require 2+ preds.
Vindicators could add D3 shots for every 5 models in the target unit, and cap at 5d3 (average of 10 shots vs units of 20+).
Terminators could ignore the penalties to hit for moving and shooting heavy weapons, or from using PF/TH.
Blood angels could have Assault Marines as troops.
Vanguard Vets could deepstrike closer to the enemy, or on the first turn regardless of the FAQ, or at least reroll charges, but only come in 5 man squads (to seperate them from assault Marines and avoid spam).
Sternguard could have real special ammo.

And so on.

Spoletta wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T4 3+ is poor at their price point.

People have laid out how there is no room to make them stronger. Primaris tried, and made them weaker.

Not really, sure they would not be on the higher end as far as durability, but marines are not intended to be bricks, they are meant to be elite shock troops. Like all shock troops, they should hit hard but bleed points faster than other alternatives. So, T4 3+ is fine, but they need to bring the hurt. This indirectly means increasing durability, since if they could have a decent damage, you would actually put them in tranports.

It's not true that there is no room to make them stronger, this is 8th edition, we have bespoken rules, let's use them. The one i proposed before for tacs would make the bolters stronger when in the hands of a tac squad of at least 5 members, which isn't even such an abstract rule since groups of marines implement fire patterns to optimize the firepower.

Totally agree. To me Marines feel just about right in terms of how resilient they are; they just don’t kick out enough damage to have the impact they should for their points. Give them a boost in their basic offensive output (let them shoot bolt weapons twice and +1A to the basic Marine statline is my favoured solution, as this helps out Tacs, Assault Marines, and Terminators all in one go) and I think they’d be ok. They *should* be reasonably solid against light arms fire, they *should* take a pasting from dedicated anti-armour weaponry, but they *should* be able to chew through inferior, more numerous infantry without sweating it too hard.

Marines have never really been good at " bringing the hurt" since 3rd, imo. Their offense/pt has been bad for a while now.

Hell even in 3rd the only assault marines I ever faced or saw on the table were blood angels variety.

Martel732 wrote:
Marines have never really been good at " bringing the hurt" since 3rd, imo. Their offense/pt has been bad for a while now.

Deffo agree. Having just done the numbers, letting Tactical Marines shoot bolters twice and giving them two attacks brings them somewhat in line – in terms of offensive output against infantry – with the equivalent points’ worth of Guardsmen.Even if they got this, I think there’s potentially still an argument for dropping them to 12pts. I’d really like to see something like this as it stops your standard Marines being nothing more than a delivery method / bullet magnet for heavy/special weapons


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I know I’ve slightly digressed from the Assault Marine topic, but I think they’d feel more like they should if they could fire twice with their Bolt pistols, then get 3A with chainswords (it even makes the Eviscerator worth taking on a regular guy as he’d get 2 attacks)

"Units that only work for one chapter can never qualify as "good" to me. Or even "decent", really."
Except Alaitoc. Because knifeears.

"You're only ever running them as Raven Guard. So for 1CP the mobility issue is non-existent."
For a heavy gun unit, sure. For a mobile skirmisher/bully hell no. Mobility is crucial for that role, long after deployment.

"Why would you want ASM over assault cents? Assault cents can do some real damage."
Sure, Assault Cents can do damage. But you don't take ASM for damage. Very different role.

"Wraithblades"
Because Termies work well when you're not Marines. Sure, they're 3W T6, but they're also 3+ 7++, no native DS, no guns.

"Incubi"
Because everybody loves running VV on foot giving everyone a power weapon (and no stormshield). That's basically what Incubi are. They certainly hit harder than ASM. But they don't move like ASM. And they're even less durable.

"Falcons"
Lets go ahead and drop the QuadLas pred's firepower by half - that's fair if we cut it's price by 25%, right? It's not a terrible unit, I could be persuaded that I was wrong on this specific one (so we're down to only a couple dozen worse units listed)?

"NightSpinner"
What makes you think that gak is mid tier?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do think Marines could really use 2A base across the board. And ASM/Tacs 11ppm base.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. You'll get Chapter Tactic equivalents with the codex

Maybe.
Doesn't make them less bad in the meantime.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
2. You can give them all Storm Bolters can you not?

Yeah. Or I can take the less expensive Sisters and get a 2 point reduction and Objective Secured instead, at the cost of only 3 storm bolters on a 5 women squad, and some useless CC buff for a unit that has s3 t3 no CCW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jcd386 wrote:
A much better solution would be to give the bike special rules a allowing it to fire the weapon without penalty, and make multi-meltas scary enough that 1-2 attack bikes stood a chance of doing serious damage.

Melta weapons need a buff, hard. They now wound anything tougher than a marine on foot on a 3+, the enemy is now even more likely to have an invulnerable save AND an extra save, and to come with -1 to hit, and then if you somehow still manage to wound you won't one-shot things anymore...

I'd rather take 5 Storm Bolters than an Assault Marine squad. I'm not even sure why this would be a conversation.


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Bharring wrote:

"Why would you want ASM over assault cents? Assault cents can do some real damage."
Sure, Assault Cents can do damage. But you don't take ASM for damage. Very different role.

And for that role Vanguard are 2 points more to do it more effectively.

Assault Marines have no purpose. Simple as that.

Eldar units that are good remain good with alaitoc. They are soul-crushing with alaitoc, not "functional".