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2018/08/29 18:18:44
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
I'm not sure I want traitors rolled into the same book with loyalists but yeah I think there's space in the "vanilla" book for the vamps and traitors (love you son's of the Lion).
Or throw both of those heretics into their own books once the rest of the BA succumb to their thirst and finally give them over to chaos where they belong...
DW and wolves are different enough that they can do their own thing. But it could just be being salty that my Templars were deemed fit to be thrown in with the rest of the chapters.
2018/08/29 18:29:11
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
bananathug wrote: I'm not sure I want traitors rolled into the same book with loyalists but yeah I think there's space in the "vanilla" book for the vamps and traitors (love you son's of the Lion).
Or throw both of those heretics into their own books once the rest of the BA succumb to their thirst and finally give them over to chaos where they belong...
DW and wolves are different enough that they can do their own thing. But it could just be being salty that my Templars were deemed fit to be thrown in with the rest of the chapters.
I've put my thoughts in the proposed rules forum, but basically in my mind the only guys who get their own books are the ones completely unique in organization. That would be:
1. Grey Knights
2. Deathwatch
3. Space Wolves
4. Renegades/recently Traitor Marines (who honestly cannot be properly represented in either the Loyalist Scum or CSM codices)
You can also argue for Black Templars but I think they're better off in the Vanilla codex.
In my mind, each Chapter just gets their own couple of unique units (which I also outlined my thoughts) and then their Special Characters. Then we would have 10 generic Relics and then 3 unique to each of those Chapters in that codex. BAM, done.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2018/08/29 18:41:22
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/29 18:43:41
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Necrons are a close 3rd, then nids, dark angels, deathwatch, blood angels, death guard, and Custodes, which are all of the factions that lost more than half the time.
You can also see that as a primary faction, the codex order is GK, BA, SM, Necrons, Nids, dark angels, death guard, Custodes, CSM, deathwatch. And then Tau, who are sitting at right about 50% win rate and might be considered "balanced."
Seems pretty clear from these numbers there is a power armor problem.
2018/08/31 14:55:31
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
There would never be a situation where an army of marines would line up revolutionary war style and battle it out with 1000 times their number. You are right - there would be no point.
You mean except when 25000 marines made a last stand on Baal against trilions of enemies?
2018/08/31 15:06:38
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Bharring wrote: SM seem much closer to DG/CSM levels than they are to IG/CWE/Ork/Necron levels.
Space Marines are way far behind the Traitors, and we all know how I feel about those codices too.
Codex CSM is trash too. However - at least they have this combo.
+1 to hit +1 to wound shoot twice obliterators. At least they have DP's - at least they have bezerkers. At least they have warp time.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/31 15:10:03
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Three factions are in the 20% range:
Gk Inquisition (we can ignore them)
Orkz
Most factions are between 40% and 60%:
Adeptus Astartes
Necrons
Adepta Sororitas
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Tyranids
Officio Assassinorum
Renegade Guard
Deathwatch
Blood Angels
Death Guard
Adeptus Custodes
Cult Mechanicus
Chaos Daemons
T'au Empire
Chaos Space Marines
Genestealer Cults
Astra Militarum
Thousand Sons
Imperial Knights
Renegade Knights
Asuryani
Harlequins
Only 2 factions exceed 60%:
Drukhari
Ynnari
Calling anything under 50% "bottom tier" is a bit much. It does place SM on the lower end of mid tier, but nowhere near the true bottom tier with Orkz and GK.
That said, the only Power Armor factions above 50% are CSM and TK. And they're just barely north of 50%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Primary faction" is extremely gamey in this edition. I went by presence-in-list.
"Primary faction" lines up like this:
Grey Knights
Inquisition
Orks
Renegade Guard - Exactly the 33% point
Space Wolves
Adepta Sororitas
Blood Angels
Adeptus Astartes
Necrons
Tyranids
Dark Angels
Death Guard
Adeptus Custodes
Chaos Space Marines
Genestealer Cults
Deathwatch
--50% point
Cult Mechanicus
T'au Empire
Asuryani
Chaos Daemons
Harlequins
Renegade Knights
Imperial Knights
Drukhari
Astra Militarum
Thousand Sons
-- 66%
Ynnari
Ynnari is a clear outlier, although it is also the only faction I know of that cannot be non-primary-faction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 15:13:06
2018/08/31 15:21:25
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Doesn't mean much. Actually that whole ranking doesn't mean much. The only thing you get from that is that T'au are doing great and that GK suck. Apart from that, you will notice that above 50% you only have the factions which are common primary candidates for soup, even if the AdM is a bit of a surprise..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 16:08:08
2018/08/31 16:55:00
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Ad mech is better than most want to admit. Their top tier options are pretty fantastic. Bots, electroshock preists, dune-crawlers, cheap and effective infantry - those walker things (forget their names) - reroll all hits auras - ect.
They have some terrible units - like destroyers which are criminally over-costed.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/08/31 20:04:38
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Xenomancers wrote: Ad mech is better than most want to admit. Their top tier options are pretty fantastic. Bots, electroshock preists, dune-crawlers, cheap and effective infantry - those walker things (forget their names) - reroll all hits auras - ect.
They have some terrible units - like destroyers which are criminally over-costed.
This is all 100% spot on. AdMech just don't have a variety of builds. Ultimately you know what you're getting, and that means your opponents can either counter it, or not. There's not a lot of variance.
And this data is horribly flawed.
Take Christopher Wright's list. It counts as Drukhari because he brought 3 VoidRaven Bombers in an entirely Alaitoc list. 500 points and suddenly it's Dark Eldar? Nah. Just like Guard will be inflated by soup in this same list.
Tau are much better than people say. I've been saying it for some time. Although Tau players are known to complain.
Unsurprising that Tyranids are hurting. Knights really upset the meta for them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/31 20:05:36
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2018/08/31 21:17:51
Subject: Re:Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Is this a good time to wistfully reminisce about the days when Assault Marines cost 32 points per model, inclusive of chainsword? (37 if you wanted jump packs).
It's a weird time in 40k history when Jump pack assault infantry no longer have a place in a SM army and they're afraid to take on IG in hand to hand.
If you mention second edition 40k I will find you, and I will bore you to tears talking about how "things were better in my day, let me tell ya..." Might even do it if you mention 4th/5th/6th WHFB
2018/08/31 23:05:51
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Xenomancers wrote: Ad mech is better than most want to admit. Their top tier options are pretty fantastic. Bots, electroshock preists, dune-crawlers, cheap and effective infantry - those walker things (forget their names) - reroll all hits auras - ect.
They have some terrible units - like destroyers which are criminally over-costed.
This is all 100% spot on. AdMech just don't have a variety of builds. Ultimately you know what you're getting, and that means your opponents can either counter it, or not. There's not a lot of variance.
And this data is horribly flawed.
Take Christopher Wright's list. It counts as Drukhari because he brought 3 VoidRaven Bombers in an entirely Alaitoc list. 500 points and suddenly it's Dark Eldar? Nah.
Just like Guard will be inflated by soup in this same list.
Tau are much better than people say. I've been saying it for some time. Although Tau players are known to complain.
Unsurprising that Tyranids are hurting. Knights really upset the meta for them.
I've been running 3 VRB in my DE list to counter shinning spears. I can basically take them out of the game with 3 fly bys. Holy crap I don't even want to think about how many meq they will kill in a turn....it is embarasing. What can't they kill exactly?
Thats 3 units taking an average of 6.5 mortal wounds. Plus they have 6d3 str 8 ap -4 d3 damage shots plus 3d6 reoll wounds str 7 misssles. Anyways - when this unit costs only 155 points - an assault marine is worth about 8 points lol.
Tau on the other hand are in kind of a weird spot - they can build a list a lot of different ways. They can generate a ton of CP with amazing firewarriors. Commanders with CIB just merk anything they shoot at. 12 shots with str 8 ap-1 d3 damage - hitting on 2's and with +1 to wound strat just murders things that rely on toughness or invo saves to survive. They are really strong vs knights - very weak against eldar - because hitting on 6's doesn't work.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/31 23:10:20
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
2018/09/01 05:54:03
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
Bharring wrote: Three factions are in the 20% range:
Gk Inquisition (we can ignore them)
Orkz
Most factions are between 40% and 60%:
Adeptus Astartes
Necrons
Adepta Sororitas
Space Wolves
Dark Angels
Tyranids
Officio Assassinorum
Renegade Guard
Deathwatch
Blood Angels
Death Guard
Adeptus Custodes
Cult Mechanicus
Chaos Daemons
T'au Empire
Chaos Space Marines
Genestealer Cults
Astra Militarum
Thousand Sons
Imperial Knights
Renegade Knights
Asuryani
Harlequins
Only 2 factions exceed 60%:
Drukhari
Ynnari
Calling anything under 50% "bottom tier" is a bit much. It does place SM on the lower end of mid tier, but nowhere near the true bottom tier with Orkz and GK.
That said, the only Power Armor factions above 50% are CSM and TK. And they're just barely north of 50%.
Automatically Appended Next Post: "Primary faction" is extremely gamey in this edition. I went by presence-in-list.
"Primary faction" lines up like this:
Grey Knights
Inquisition
Orks
Renegade Guard - Exactly the 33% point
Space Wolves
Adepta Sororitas
Blood Angels
Adeptus Astartes
Necrons
Tyranids
Dark Angels
Death Guard
Adeptus Custodes
Chaos Space Marines
Genestealer Cults
Deathwatch
--50% point
Cult Mechanicus
T'au Empire
Asuryani
Chaos Daemons
Harlequins
Renegade Knights
Imperial Knights
Drukhari
Astra Militarum
Thousand Sons
-- 66%
Ynnari
Ynnari is a clear outlier, although it is also the only faction I know of that cannot be non-primary-faction.
I didn't mean to imply that anything below 50% is bottom tier.
I'd say it's more like:
0-35% no army should be here and this should be fixed ASAP. Currently GK are the only codex army here.
36-45% these are the playable but definitely bad armies. There usually isn't a good reason to play these unless you just like the army. This is where I see SM and necrons due to poorly converted statlines and points costs. I actually think nids are better than their win rate suggests, but might also be one of the hardest armies to play correctly. They still seem to need some buffs, though.
45-55% I'd call these mid tier. In a perfect world, every army's win rate would be somewhere in this section. The closer to 50% the better.
55+% this stuff is too strong. Other armies either need to be brought up towards these books, or they need to come down some.
Soup helps mitigate some of the issues bad books have been letting you just take the good things from each book. This usually means avoiding anything resembling the Marine statline.
Keep in mind that a 50% win rate is 125% as successful as a 40% win rate, and a 60% win rate is 150% as successful as a 40% win rate, and so on.
Right now Ynnari have something like a 360% better win rate than grey knights do.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/01 05:55:00
2018/09/04 15:04:47
Subject: Current assault marines should be 5-6 points.
JCD,
I should have declared brackets before looking at the data. Not having done so lead me to try to fit brackets to the data, giving bad results.
+/- 5% from neutral (45%-55%) is a good target. Calling that 'mid tier' might work, but we also have small data sets with high variability and limited independence.
I'd think 0-35% means "trash tier", not low tier. Good point.
35%-45% gamewide should mean 'low tier', but the dataset only shows us limited data: thus I don't think it really says anything inside 40%-60% is outside 'mid tier'. However, SM are just barely short of that - actually suggesting that they are 'low tier'.
All that talk and I'm revising my take on the data: it does indeed show SM as low tier and CSM as mid tier.
Although Nova has more Marines in the top 11 than CSM...
(37 if you wanted jump packs).
