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Ok, that's fine. If you want to go true RAW, than it appears by the rules you quoted, you cannot select multiple targets AT ALL before moving to step 3. Step 2 only allows you to select "A" target.
So this entire thread is moot and "split fire" is a myth.

Since we KNOW you can choose more than 1 target, AND that all weapons must be allocated to targets before rolling any dice, obviously more has to be considered than RAW.

-

U02dah4 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
You still have yet to prove that "the weapon being used" is in direct reference to the weapon being FIRED AT THE TARGET.
As it stands, "the weapon being used" can simply mean "being used to select a valid target".
Nothing about step 2 explicitly commits "the" weapon to "the" target.

Stop added implications that are not there. Or at the very least, prove them please.
And re-quoting the rule over and over again doesn't prove your point.
I have illustrated that the language used does not necessarily mean what you claim.

-

Says the person claiming that the weapon being used means the weapon being used to select a valid target not the weapon being fired.

If that was the case i select my valid target and range with my ironstorm missile and fire my heavy flamer at it.

And you'd get challenged, rightly so.

U02dah4 wrote:
[Would you please stop adding implications that are not there without quoteing please quote the part of section 2 that enables you to meadure range to more than one target or that defines the weapon being used as to mean something other than the weapon being fired

I quote the rule thats relevant you dont because you cant

As Galef points out, step 2 does not cover multiple targets or multiple weapons, so the rules suddenly break down for multiple targets. That would also be true for multiple weapons unless they are having you use measuring for one weapon as an excuse to determine the actual distance to the target so that you can determine if your other weapons are in range. Otherwise, a model could never fire multiple weapons despite being forced to fire all weapons because you only get to measure range to "the" weapon", and it does not instruct you that you get to repeat this for all weapons for the model. So, it looks like your interpretation has been proven to bring the game to a screeching halt because of RAW conflicts. Congratulations.

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

as with dice rolling following the order for a single dice up till this point it follows the rules for a single weapon if you have 3 weapons being used you repeat the process 3 imes no problem

Select target a select weapon 1 measure range
Select target a select weapon 2 measure range
Select target b select weapon 3 measure range

Doesn't seem to be a problem you have 3 weapons being used you repeat the process 3 times.

You are trying to game the system by witholding information about what your doing you require in order to measure range.

This is certainly not in keeping with RAW backed up by the people claiming you dont have to measure range in order to support it.

The fact you challenge those points demonstrates there is something wrong with your analysis and range is measured for each weapon. Range only being mentioned at step 2 has to be measured there and in order to measure range you need to measureing from something to something.

Your argument makes no sense. The title of step 3 is literally "Choose Ranged Weapons".
Even though step 2 required you to select a specific weapon to measure range with, you don't "officially" commit to that until step 3. You just cannot choose a target that is outside the range of at least one weapon you have. This is "the" weapon.
Step 2 is choosing a target. You need to meet the criteria for the step, which includes referencing a weapon to establish a valid range, but ONLY for measuring. Step 3 in when the actual weapon selection occurs

You also cannot select a weapon that is out of range at any point in the phase, or game. Ranges are always in play, just like any other stat. You reference them when asked (like in step 2) and/or when they are actually used (like in step 3).
To argue otherwise is like saying Space Marines are T4,000 until the game says otherwise.

-

Which makes no sense because that allows me to use my iron storm for measureing range to a target. Then at step 3 i choose to fire my flamer at it because your past the point of range measurement you don't reference it again

Step 3 is irrelevant to the timing yes its labeled choose weapon this occurs after the targetting step (yes its bad writting and mostly redundant kudos GW)

What matters is only when you measure range of your weapon to the target because thats when you lock weapon to target and its not referenced after step 2.

If you can show me where range is mentioned in or after step 3 i'll concead if not it occurs at step 2 and your weapons and targets are locked

Because 72" flamers is patently silly and thats tge outcome of your interpretation

You are NEVER past the point of range measurement. Your opponent is ALWAY within their right to verify you are in range and can use a particular weapon.

Measuring range at step 2 is ONLY to verify the target is within range and that you units CAN shoot at it. If no weapon are in range at all, you cannot select that target.
However, if I use a missile launcher to measure that range, but my flamer is out of that range, I still cannot use the Flamer as ranges are always in play.

EDIT: Having reread (again) the shooting rules, I feel it is entirely possible to complete the steps and force the opponent to use RIS in step 2 BEFORE selecting a different target.
Step 3 includes the language for choosing separate targets, not step 2.

So this is how it would got:
Step 1: I choose the unit I will shoot with
Step 2: I select my heavy bolter to measure range to Knight A (Knight player has to choose to use RIS at this step)
Step 3: Now I choose my other weapons to fire with, including separate targets since THIS step tells me I can do so. I choose to allocate the rest of my weapons at Knight B (checking range for each because you HAVE to refer to a weapons profile when using it)

It's ridiculous, but that is the order of the steps. And I still don't have to commit the HB to Knight A. I will because I choose it as a target and HAVE to shoot at it, but I can choose to allocate the HB to something else if I wanted to.

-

You can select your iron storm for measuring range then fire your flamer.

There is a requirement that the target be within range to fire the flamer at it. So doing so would run afoul of that rule.

Similarly, if I want to shoot my boltguns at a squad that is 10" away, and i measure 24" - yep they're in:
-I measured 24". Do I get 1 shot or 2 with rapidfire weapons (hint: 2)?
-They're in range of the weapon. So can I now fire my Flamer at them? Nope. Too far.
-They're in range of the weapon. So can I now fire my Lascannon at them? Yep.

Consider this scenario:
A Tac squad moves within 9" of two models of an Ork mob. It fires all it's Boltguns first - and those two models are removed as casualties. Can it fire the Flamer at the Orkz? When you measured earlier, they were within 9".

Bharring wrote:
Consider this scenario:
A Tac squad moves within 9" of two models of an Ork mob. It fires all it's Boltguns first - and those two models are removed as casualties. Can it fire the Flamer at the Orkz? When you measured earlier, they were within 9".

Bingo. You have to constantly check range throughout the game.

-

U02dah4 wrote:
2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

as with dice rolling following the order for a single dice up till this point it follows the rules for a single weapon if you have 3 weapons being used you repeat the process 3 imes no problem

Select target a select weapon 1 measure range
Select target a select weapon 2 measure range
Select target b select weapon 3 measure range

Doesn't seem to be a problem you have 3 weapons being used you repeat the process 3 times.

But it says "the weapon" singular, not "weapons" plural "being used". It does not tell you to repeat the step for other weapons. You seem to want to be a stickler for this step, yet you want to overlook that part of the statement.

[quote=U02dah4 762194 10118863 nullYou are trying to game the system by witholding information about what your doing you require in order to measure range.

This is certainly not in keeping with RAW backed up by the people claiming you dont have to measure range in order to support it.

Measureing at step 2 is to check that each weapon is in range of the target it is firing at. That is why it is not measured in further stepps

How can they varify your weapon is within range if they don't know which target tgat weapon is firing at

Because you can measure at any time for any reason.

So they measured, and fired a lascannon. Now they claim they're shooting their boltguns. You can measure then to ensure they're within 24" - regardless of what they've measured previously. The rule requires that it be in range. If it's not, they can't shoot.

Step 3 is irrelevant targetting occurs in step 2.

It says singular because it is outlineing the process for 1 gun. If you have 4 guns repeat the process for 4 guns.

If you refuse to tell your opponent what specific profile you are measureing to which target you are gaming the system because you are attempting to gain an advantage by withholding information. You are required to use the specific profiles of the weapons being used so your opponent is entitled to that information.

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....

The question is about targetting so that is the only passage that is relevant

U02dah4 wrote:
Measureing at step 2 is to check that each weapon is in range of the target it is firing at. That is why it is not measured in further stepps

How can they varify your weapon is within range if they don't know which target tgat weapon is firing at

See Bharring's example.
You assumption that you never measure range again would mean that it I measured my Flamer as being in range at step 2, but resolve my Rapid Firing Bolters first, and the opponent REMOVES all the models that were in range of the Flamer, your logic would mean the Flamer would still be able to fire.
This is incorrect.

Except that rule allows selecting target *units*. A weapon can only ever target 1 unit. Two weapons with identical profiles and even names can fire at two different targets, but one weapon cannot.

Bharring wrote:
Because you can measure at any time for any reason.

So they measured, and fired a lascannon. Now they claim they're shooting their boltguns. You can measure then to ensure they're within 24" - regardless of what they've measured previously. The rule requires that it be in range. If it's not, they can't shoot.

Except thats not the proces as it could be abused for advantage

Resolve las cannon failed to kill whoops my melta is out of range ill have to fire at the same target as my lascannon.

All weapons are supposed to have their ranges measured at step 2. Doesnt mean an error cant be discovered later

U02dah4 wrote:
Step 3 is irrelevant targetting occurs in step 2.

And I can just as easily say:
Step 2 is irrelevant, weapon selection occurs at step 3

But in fact, both steps are inter connected and cross reference each other. If not, then why does step 3 allow you to select further targets?
I can choose Knight A at step 2, forcing the player to decide to use RIS or not, but then move to step 3 and select another Knight AND ADDITIONAL WEAPONS as that is what step 3 does.
Step 3 allows you to split your fire. How can you do this if all your weapons were assigned to "A" target in step 2?

-

No because step 2 comes first that the point

And if step 2 is irrelevant targeting ocurrs at 3 and you can rotate ion shields after seeing what your targetting

No you can choose as many targets as you have weapons to fire at at step 2 thats when targeting occurs see the choose target heading once i know what targets your weapon profiles are measured to i declare ris then we progress to step 3. Untill all your weapon profile have a target we are stuck at step 2

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks. In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile) ....



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Measureing at step 2 is to check that each weapon is in range of the target it is firing at. That is why it is not measured in further stepps

How can they varify your weapon is within range if they don't know which target tgat weapon is firing at

See Bharring's example.
You assumption that you never measure range again would mean that it I measured my Flamer as being in range at step 2, but resolve my Rapid Firing Bolters first, and the opponent REMOVES all the models that were in range of the Flamer, your logic would mean the Flamer would still be able to fire.
This is incorrect.

You wouldn't need to under mine you have measured every weapon used at step 2. Therefore you don't need to measure a weapon again they have been measured to their targets. If you measure your flamer and stubber to the same target and they all die the flamer no longer has a target and cant fire. If it does you can still fire even if no longer in range.

You still haven't proven that, with the talk of measuring to "the" target with "the" weapon for determining if the target is in range, and no explicit statement to measure every single weapon system to be fired at a unit, that step 2 actually covers measuring more than one weapon to the target, or covers multiple targets. This is merely an assumption that you are making. Certainly, you are not told until step 3 that you may fire multiple weapons at one target, or that you may split your fire among multiple targets. Therefore, you are trying to do things at a step before you are given permission to do that. You don't have permission for multiple weapons on a model or for the model to fire at multiple targets (despite being told at this step you can choose multiple targets, it does not outline how it's done until step 3), only "the" target to fire "the" weapon.

Rather than arguing with each other over how GW **** poor rules writing.

Can you all do something more productive like e-mailing GW to point out that thier shooting phase rules as written are ambiguous being generous here and need clarified/rewritten.

Like seriously while RAW you have to fire every single use weapon turn one they can't seriously intend that.

Models with multiple weapons only being able to shoot shoot everything at one target or only one weapon per target.

Not being able to use Assualt weapons can't be intentional.

How are defensive strategums supposed to interact with the shooting phase as currently both interpretations are valid as the rules aren't explicit.

The current shooting phase rules were written by a drunken baby arguing about what the drunken baby ment won't fix them.

Just Email GW untill the FAQ them into something that actually works properly.

 Galef wrote:

Step 3 allows you to split your fire. How can you do this if all your weapons were assigned to "A" target in step 2?

I still want this question answered and here's a quote since you want one:

"3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several
weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a
different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can
shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how
you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve
all the shots against one target before moving on to the next."

I've underlined the point I want to focus on. So let's say I chose Knight A in step 2 and measure ALL my weapons to see that are ALL in range.
Ok, but if I can then shoot at a DIFFERENT target in step 3, then clearly all those weapons are not "FIXED" on Knight A.
It also requires measuring to occur again to see if Knight B is in range.
Step 2 tells you to select "A" target. Step 3 allows you to select different targets and allocate weapons at them.

Normally this does not matter as the opponent has no interaction here and we often select weapons and targets simultaneously in practice, measuring range as selection is made.
But in the case of RIS, we need to pause at step 2 to allow the Knight player to decide
So you can "fake" out the Knight player by measuring all your weapons at step 2, but if he decides to use RIS, you only have to commit a weapon to it at step 3, and allocate the rest of your weapons to a different target.

-

In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)

Specific statement - proof at step 2

The weapon being used is the weapon/s you are firing

Now it is up to you to prove that statement isnt at 2 or quote a rule providing an exception

Underlineing a point at step 3 is irrelevant as the above statement occurs at 2 and forces you to disclose the information prior to 3 once you have selected a target you have selected a target for that weapon you cannot move to another target.

Step 3 requires you to declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled it does not permit you to change the target after that declaration is made which happens when you measure range for the weapon and target. Step 2 tells you what to do step 3 tells you how to do it.

U02dah4 wrote:
In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)

Specific statement - proof at step 2

The weapon being used is the weapon/s you are firing

Now it is up to you to prove that statement isnt at 2 or quote a rule providing an exception

I accept that you are measuring the range of "the weapon being fired"
But I do not accept that it is the weapon being fired AT THAT TARGET because step 3 allows me to split my fire at different targets, with no further indication that I need to go back to step 2.
So I can measure to Knight A "the weapons" I will fire from my unit, but when I get to step 3, I am given further permission to split my fire as I chose. As long as I fire SOMETHING at Knight A (because it was selected as a target), I am fully compliant with BOTH steps.

Example:
I have 3 Fire Prisms I want to Link Fire with to shoot a Knight.
I select Prism 1, which has a Prism Cannon (60") and Shuricannon (24") and determine both are in range of Knight A. Step 1 & 2 done
A Knight has been selected as a target, RIS can be used here.
Step 3, I can NOW split my fire. If the Knight player used RIS, I'll allocate the Shuricannon at Knight A and my Prism cannon at a DIFFERENT Knight, because step 3 allows me to do so.
I can then pop Linked Fire and shoot my other 2 Prims at Knight B as well.

Now if the Knight player didn't use RIS when Knight A was selected, they are free to do so when Knight be is selected later.

-

Ice_can wrote:
Rather than arguing with each other over how GW **** poor rules writing.

Can you all do something more productive like e-mailing GW to point out that thier shooting phase rules as written are ambiguous being generous here and need clarified/rewritten.

Like seriously while RAW you have to fire every single use weapon turn one they can't seriously intend that.

Models with multiple weapons only being able to shoot shoot everything at one target or only one weapon per target.

Not being able to use Assualt weapons can't be intentional.

How are defensive strategums supposed to interact with the shooting phase as currently both interpretations are valid as the rules aren't explicit.

The current shooting phase rules were written by a drunken baby arguing about what the drunken baby ment won't fix them.

Just Email GW untill the FAQ them into something that actually works properly.

but its the most play tested edition ever

point taken I know however in a tournament currently you would have to give me the information prior to an RIS decision or there's a TO call. Much like with assault weapons being unusual their is an accepted standard regardless of GW exact wording. GW should correct the issue.

U02dah4 wrote:
In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)

Specific statement - proof at step 2

The weapon being used is the weapon/s you are firing

Now it is up to you to prove that statement isnt at 2 or quote a rule providing an exception

same as with dice GW explain in singular and then you repeat the process with multiples

I am just following the raw

In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)

I don't need permissions from 3 to do so I haven't got there yet. Nothing in the statement followed contradicts anything that occurs in 3

U02dah4 wrote:
same as with dice GW explain in singular and then you repeat the process with multiples

How to handle the multiples are given in step 3, not step 2. You have no authority or permission to do that in step 2, and you have provided no evidence.

U02dah4 wrote:
I am just following the raw /quote]

Clearly not, when you say that a step called "Choose Weapons" that outlines how you choose weapons, and how to handle multiple weapons and multiple targets that comes after the step you quote is irrelevant, despite your trying to use the rules from that step in your argument.

[quote=U02dah4 762194 10119139 nullIn order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit must be within the Range of the weapon being used (as listed on its profile)

I don't need permissions from 3 to do so I haven't got there yet. Nothing in the statement followed contradicts anything that occurs in 3

Ah, the old "I don't need permission in a permissive ruleset" argument, just half a step from "but the rules don't say I can't". You are only told THE weapon, not multiple weapons, against THE target, not multiple targets. You don't have permission for multiple weapons at step 2, and you have not manufactured any proof of your statements that withstands scrutiny.

But, for somebody who says that the "Choose Weapons" step is irrelevant, I wouldn't expect any more.

If you can come back with real evidence other that the assumptions you make in conjunction with the one statement that you are twisting beyond what it says, I might consider what you say. As it stands now, I can't believe anything you've asserted here and you're not going to agree with what I'm saying. It doesn't seem worth it go go back and forth in a circular argument for a few more pages until a mod locks the thread. If you feel so strongly that you're right, and that we have to declare weapons before we are told to declare weapons, please take ice_can''s advice and write GW so that they can try to clarify it. Continuing this for more pages isn't worth it.

RIS isn't the first time this mattered. It mattered immediately when 8E launched. Do I CP that failed save from the meltagun, as saving it means it's got 1W left? The answer very much depends on if there's a gakton of Boltguns who are about to shoot at it. So this isn't new.

 Galef wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being used (as
listed on its profile)

Specific statement - proof at step 2

The weapon being used is the weapon/s you are firing

Now it is up to you to prove that statement isnt at 2 or quote a rule providing an exception

I accept that you are measuring the range of "the weapon being fired"
But I do not accept that it is the weapon being fired AT THAT TARGET because step 3 allows me to split my fire at different targets, with no further indication that I need to go back to step 2.
So I can measure to Knight A "the weapons" I will fire from my unit, but when I get to step 3, I am given further permission to split my fire as I chose. As long as I fire SOMETHING at Knight A (because it was selected as a target), I am fully compliant with BOTH steps.

Example:
I have 3 Fire Prisms I want to Link Fire with to shoot a Knight.
I select Prism 1, which has a Prism Cannon (60") and Shuricannon (24") and determine both are in range of Knight A. Step 1 & 2 done
A Knight has been selected as a target, RIS can be used here.
Step 3, I can NOW split my fire. If the Knight player used RIS, I'll allocate the Shuricannon at Knight A and my Prism cannon at a DIFFERENT Knight, because step 3 allows me to do so.
I can then pop Linked Fire and shoot my other 2 Prims at Knight B as well.

Now if the Knight player didn't use RIS when Knight A was selected, they are free to do so when Knight be is selected later.

-

Your example doesn’t work because you have only selected one target in step 2. You can’t split your weapons to different targets when you only have 1.

You are saying that the points out toward mean step 3 would be meaningless if you have to disclose what weapons you’re using in step 2. You are wrong. Previously in this thread I have explained that Step 3 only becomes redundant when using a single model that does not have multiples of a weapon.

An Example:

The Opponent has 2 Knights, A and B, you control a 10 Man Hellblaster Squad and an Attack Bike with Multi Melta. For the purpose of this example all of your models are exactly 12” from Both Knights.

Let’s see what using each different unit looks like.

If we choose the Attack Bike we have a single model with 2 guns, a twin bolter and multi melta, you’ve chosen it to shoot and that’s Step 1.
In Step 2 you select A as a target you check the range and it’s 12” away. Now since it must be in range of a weapon you will be using against it (this is explicitly stated in Step 2) you decide to check against the twin bolter and find that its in range so you declare A is a target. Your opponent asks which weapon you used to determine it as a legal target and, since none of this is hidden information, you say the twin bolter.
They do not rotate their shields.
You repeat the above process for B only using the melta to determine range for target legality.
This time they do rotate their shields.
At this point Step 3 is redundant but you announce your weapons anyway of twin bolter at A and multi melta at B then proceed.

Now for the more interesting case of the Hellblasters.
In this example you have 10 marines and they all carry the same nasty plasma weapons, overcharging for S8 AP-4 2D, and they’re in rapid fire range so that’s 20 shots!
This kind of firepower should cripple any knight, right? But there’s those damn ion shields in the way.
So you’ve selected your unit and now you’re picking targets.
You select knight A and when asked say you used your plasma weapon.
They rotate their shields.
You then proceed to selecting knight B and, again, say you did so with the plasma weapon.
They can’t rotate this time as they’ve already used it.
Step 3 is when you get to feel like a strategic genius because now you declare how your shots are being allocated. You decide to have a single marine fire at knight A and the 9 others at knight B.

Note that you can do the same thing as the second example with any single model that’s has 3 or more of the same weapon.

I’m going to close his comment by saying this is the second time this thread I’ve written this out. This is what the RAW says. Reading each line and instruction then doing what they say results in this. Does this make it harder to take down a knight with a shadowsword? Slightly, but there are ways around it. A lot of people are glossing over what Step 2 actually says just because Step 3 exists. As I show above Step 2 requiring you to disclose weapons does not invalidate Step 3. If you have to take an action that requires verification (a range measurement in this case) both players get to know what is going on. The instances in which information is concealed in this game are few and clearly labelled.

Gendif wrote:

Your example doesn’t work because you have only selected one target in step 2. You can’t split your weapons to different targets when you only have 1.

But that's partly my point. Strict RAW, Step 2 never allows you to select more than 1 target. It isn't until step 3 that "different" targets and splitting fire are even mentioned.

Therefore, Step 2 and 3 MUST be interconnected and cyclical in order to function AT ALL.
Step 2, the step that is supposed to be selecting targets, makes you select the weapons to be used
Step 3, the step that is supposed to be selecting weapons, allows you to select additional targets for those weapons.

If Step 2 required you to allocate weapons to targets, step 3 would no need to exist at all
If Step 3 doesn't exist, you cannot split fire to additional targets at all.

So if you are going in order, you select 1 target at S2 and measure all weapon you intend to fire with your unit to THAT target.
S3, you are then allowed to select additional target (presumably going BACK to S2 to measure the weapons to the other target) and make the FINAL determination of which weapons fire at which targets.
That HAS to be how it works. All other interpretations create a 1 target only option.

In practice, however, I've always played it and seen it played that step 2 & 3 are done simultaneously, with the player declaring all weapons to all targets then measuring range.
In most situations, this works out exactly like resolving the steps separately. but for the purposes of RIS and similar abilities, you need to do them in order.

-

 Galef wrote:
But that's partly my point. Strict RAW, Step 2 never allows you to select more than 1 target. It isn't until step 3 that "different" targets and splitting fire are even mentioned.-

What ?

2. Choose Targets
Having chosen a shooting unit, you must
pick the target unit, or units, for the
attacks.

Isnt units plural ?