Rotate Ion Shields timing

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**Yarium**

bananathug wrote:
After slogging though all 6 pages of this thread I think I'm on the side of the "in order for step 3 to mean anything you don't declare what weapon is shooting at what target until after step 2." camp.

Similar to the charge rules where I can declare charges to all units within my charge range (12") and then decide who I am charging after I roll my dice.

The main crux of the argument seems to have been identified by previous posters. GW says "...must be within the Range of the weapon..." The entire argument stems on what does "the" mean.

If the rules were "must be within range of a weapon" then the Galef side wins but since GW doesn't use technical language and throws words/terms about like they don't matter I don't disagree with U0 that "the" could mean "the specific weapon you are shooting with" which would support their argument.

I don't think either side will convince the other what the word "the" means and this should really be presented to GW to come up with a ruling. When in doubt ask a TO or have a roll-off.

Thank you for confirming this for me so I wouldn't waste all my time.

By RAW, I'd have to agree with Galef's side as well. However, I believe the RAI is that you use this after seeing which way the guns are pointing. The reason I believe that is that this is closest to what people tend to do in the real world. People say "okay, I'm going to shoot my bolters at this target, and the plasma gun at that other target", and then proceed to roll their groups of dice. They choose a weapon that they've already declared a target for. This is not how it's spelt out in the rules, but it is the way people seem to play, hence Galef's initial post. As stated, we have to wait on GeeDubs for their FAQ's to find out for sure, and I would like the RAW way to stand, as it reduces the power of Knights in the current meta.

**Galef**

Yarium wrote:
However, I believe the RAI is that you use this after seeing which way the guns are pointing. The reason I believe that is that this is closest to what people tend to do in the real world. People say "okay, I'm going to shoot my bolters at this target, and the plasma gun at that other target", and then proceed to roll their groups of dice. They choose a weapon that they've already declared a target for. This is not how it's spelt out in the rules, but it is the way people seem to play, hence Galef's initial post. As stated, we have to wait on GeeDubs for their FAQ's to find out for sure, and I would like the RAW way to stand, as it reduces the power of Knights in the current meta.

Agreed, in practice most people (including myself) do steps 2 & 3 at the same time.
"My Lascannon is shooting here, my bolters are shooting there" for example.

But when it matters (like for RIS) you need to pause between the steps to let Kngiht player to decide, based only on the info that his Knight(s) have been selected as targets and the weapons that could be selected against them have range.

-

**Bharring**

The "natural" way, rules unseen, is more like this:
-I shoot my Lascannon at that tank!
-*resolves shooting*
-Well, it's still there, so I shoot my Meltagun at it!

The rules vary the natural by clearly requiring you to specify all your targets beforehand.

U0:
"So when i check the las cannon to its target and when i check the plasma to its target they will be in.

Now you only have to tell me which and the game can proceed. "

Why? Step 2 has been completed. I've selected targets. Those targets are within range of the weapon used.

It's actually not throwing out more information to obfuscate. Specifically, I'm sharing that weapons [1, 2] are firing at targets [A, B]. You're asking to be told that weapons [1, 2] are firing at [A, B], *and* that 1 is firing at A and 2 is firing at B. In this case, you're asking for *more* information. Information that might not even be decided yet.

Maybe Target A is in range of weapon 1, and B is in range of weapon 2. Maybe B is in range of weapon 1 and A is in range of 2. At any rate, if you know [A,B] are in range of [1,2], you know that both A and B are in range of the weapon used.

As you can fulfill every requirement of step 2, what right do you have to stop the game from proceeding to step 3 by demanding a choice be made that isn't required yet - and may vary depending on your actions before step 3 begins?

**doctortom**

U02dah4 wrote:

Weapon being used = weapon being fired
As finnally agreed by even galef
therefore

In order to target an enemy unit,
a model from that unit must be within
the Range of the weapon being fired (as
listed on its profile) ...."

It would seem self explanatory that would be applied to every weapon as there are no exemptions

That's funny, I would think "3. Choose Ranged Weaspons" would be self explanatory, even more so than what you are saying here, but you seem to have a problem with it. You are determining a range to the target, and that's what you get for information in that step - who the target is,and what the range is. You still haven't shown that you must announce which weapons are firing at which units here; step 2's requirements are fulfilled by stating what the target is/targets are, and what the range is. You can be informed which weapons are in range to fire at which targets, but specific weapons are not locked in until we are told they are chosen in step 3. I have RAW stating the weapons are chosen and it's announced which targets which weapons are fired at step 3, not step 2. If you have a problem with that then it's your interpretation of step 2 that is the issue, not the clear cut rule stating step 3 is when you choose what weapons are firing at what targets.

**Ice_can**

Fundamentally the whole shooting phase rules need a rewrite.

Assualt weapons don't work.
You have to shoot every single use weapon the first time you shoot with that model.
You can either shoot all your weapons at one target or each weapon has to be shoot at a different target.

Step 2 and Step 3 contradicts themselfs.

But as to what you guys are arguing about step 2

Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for theattacks.In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit mist be within range of the weapon being used (as listed on it's profile) and be visable to the shooting model.

You don't pick a target for your unit you pick a target for the attacks in step 2. You can not pick a target that is out of range of the attack.
GW hasn't stopped and read it's own rules objectively to see if they explicitly convey the intended process.

**Bharring**

I hope that, when they do (hopefully with an FAQ), they pick U0's interpretation. Mine leaves open the possibility to getting into gamestates with no legal path forward.

**Gendif**

I’m amazed this is still going with the same old arguments. To be expected I suppose after I wrote out a detailed example of how having to declaring weapons in Step 2 to ensure they are legally targeted is entirely compatibile with Step 3 and that overall the rules are fine.
Which was of course ignored in favour of the same circular argument.

**jeffersonian000**

The reality is, you are Checking the distance between the Shooter and any Targets (Step 2), and then selecting which weapons to use that are in range (Step 3). Twisting the rules as written in an attempt to juke a Knight player into Rotating the wrong Ion Shield is just being a Richard.

SJ

**U02dah4**

Exactly

**Bharring**

Jeffersonian,
Alternately, twisting the rules so that your opponent must decide which weapon is firing at which target before you decide which target gets RIS could also be a Richard move - depending on which way the rules go.

Gendif,
You needn't know which weapon is firing at which target to work out the validitiy of the target selections. There must be a legal resolution of the rules, but there could be 2+ legal resolutions. At which point must the actual resolution be selected? When we are told to select targets, or when we are told to select which weapon is firing at a target?

**jeffersonian000**

Bharring wrote:
Jeffersonian,
Alternately, twisting the rules so that your opponent must decide which weapon is firing at which target before you decide which target gets RIS could also be a Richard move - depending on which way the rules go.

How so? If your intention is to shoot Knight B with your Volcano Cannon, but target Knight A first to get them to rotate their shields, it’s all out in the open the moment you announced targeting in Step 2. If you are trying to trick your opponent, you are the one being the Richard.

SJ

**doctortom**

jeffersonian000 wrote:
Bharring wrote:
Jeffersonian,
Alternately, twisting the rules so that your opponent must decide which weapon is firing at which target before you decide which target gets RIS could also be a Richard move - depending on which way the rules go.

How so? If your intention is to shoot Knight B with your Volcano Cannon, but target Knight A first to get them to rotate their shields, it’s all out in the open the moment you announced targeting in Step 2. If you are trying to trick your opponent, you are the one being the Richard.

SJ

Because choosing which weapons fire at which targets is step 3, after choosing targets, while choosing targets is step 2. Saying that someone has to declare what weapons are firinig at a target before you have reached the step where you declare which weapon is firing at a target could be seen as a Richard move.

**Bharring**

Jefferson/Doctor,
To be clear, I think all 3 of us agree on this point:
-Applying a rules lawyery interpretation that conflicts with the standard/concensus to either provide or deny an advantage is a Richard move.

The difference is in which way the rules actually *are*. Or, at least, assumed to be. If your group has always been target, then choose weapon, then asserting this suddenly midmatch is a Richard move. Inversely, if it's always been choose weapon, then target, suddenly claiming otherwise midmatch is also a Richard move.

If my intention is to fire my Missile Launcher at the Knight without RIS, and Lascannon at the knight with RIS, then it's certainly not trickery. It's quite obvious what you're planning to do. The question comes down to which decision is required first: RIS or weapon selection?

**p5freak**

Target selection is step 2, choosing weapons is step 3. RIS must be played when a knight is selected as a target. After step 2, before step 3.

**Ice_can**

p5freak wrote:
Target selection is step 2, choosing weapons is step 3. RIS must be played when a knight is selected as a target. After step 2, before step 3.

Once agin thats your interpretation, but your not choosing a target for model but for the attack which is what step 2 actually requires.

Simply put the shooting phase rules aren't explicit enough and need rewritten.

**p5freak**

Ice_can wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Target selection is step 2, choosing weapons is step 3. RIS must be played when a knight is selected as a target. After step 2, before step 3.
Once agin thats your interpretation, but your not choosing a target for model but for the attack which is what step 2 actually requires.

Simply put the shooting phase rules aren't explicit enough and need rewritten.

Step 2 is called choose targets. RIS is used when an enemy targets your knight. It's crystal clear.

**Ice_can**

p5freak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:
p5freak wrote:
Target selection is step 2, choosing weapons is step 3. RIS must be played when a knight is selected as a target. After step 2, before step 3.
Once agin thats your interpretation, but your not choosing a target for model but for the attack which is what step 2 actually requires.

Simply put the shooting phase rules aren't explicit enough and need rewritten.

Step 2 is called choose targets. RIS is used when an enemy targets your knight. It's crystal clear.

It says you pick a target for each attack though not model.
You attack with a weapon, not a model.

**U02dah4**

However to resolve step 2 and target you have to measure range useing the range profile of the weapon being used.

Take the secuarii peltast

It has one weapon the galvanic caster
With 3 profiles 24" 18" 30"
You cannot assess range to the target until you have selected both weapon and profile.

No one is arguing you don't target at step 2

The question is does checking range require you to have already done step 3 (selected weapon and profile) which creates no problems other than makeing step 3 redundant

Or have you only to check that a target is within potential range meaning you dont have to announce weapon or profile till step 3.

Essentially both steps require information from the other step.

This explanation also comes up against the 72" flamer problem as no rule checks range after step 2 so i measure range with the longer profile profile and select my shorter ranged gun as the weapon. (Which has only been resolved so far by manufactureing static range check rules or applying a RAI fix).

Which for me demonstrates why the second doesn't work.

Simple answer is announce what your firing your guns at like a normal player and theres no conflict on either side.

try and be a richard and obscure information and the only fair way to resolve it is a TO call and a thumbs down.

**Galef**

The confusion continues to be that measuring the weapon(s) being used is also assigning them to "a" target. It isn't.
You need to measure the weapons being used THIS PHASE, not necessarily the weapons being used AT the specific target.
At step 2 you measure the "possible" weapon(s) to the target. If your unit has no "possible" weapons in range to a given target, said target cannot be selected as your UNIT has nothing in range.
You must measure at this step to determine if your UNIT has range to your target. That is one of the first clauses of step 2.

If, however, the weapon(s) being used are indeed in range to the target(s), they may be selected as such.
So you are selecting the targets by measure the weapons your unit will be using this phase. All weapons can be measured at this step and to any (or all) targets to be selected.

At step 3, you are then selecting which weapon will be FIRED at which target. Having already measured the ranges for each weapon at Step 2, there is no need to measure again (although nothing stops you from doing so) and will help dictate which weapons are ALLOWED to be selected for each target.
As you MUST fire on a target you selected, you must have this in mind at step 2 (so no selecting targets you don't have weapons enough to fire at)

The only info that we KNOW at step 2 is:
-the unit that is shooting
-the weapons that will be used by that unit, including their ranges to ANY targets
-and finally, the targets selected.

We do NOT yet know which weapons will be assigned to which targets. That is determined at step 3.
Unless, of course you can guess correctly based off the ranges that were measured. So if target A was only selected because weapon X had range, but no other weapons has range, then obviously weapon X will be selected to fire at target A. But that is required to be known at step 2, just deductively reasoned.

-

**Ice_can**

Galef wrote:
The confusion continues to be that measuring the weapon(s) being used is also assigning them to "a" target. It isn't.
You need to measure the weapons being used THIS PHASE, not necessarily the weapons being used AT the specific target.
At step 2 you measure the "possible" weapon(s) to the target. If your unit has no "possible" weapons in range to a given target, said target cannot be selected as your UNIT has nothing in range.
You must measure at this step to determine if your UNIT has range to your target. That is one of the first clauses of step 2.

If, however, the weapon(s) being used are indeed in range to the target(s), they may be selected as such.
So you are selecting the targets by measure the weapons your unit will be using this phase. All weapons can be measured at this step and to any (or all) targets to be selected.

At step 3, you are then selecting which weapon will be FIRED at which target. Having already measured the ranges for each weapon at Step 2, there is no need to measure again (although nothing stops you from doing so) and will help dictate which weapons are ALLOWED to be selected for each target.
As you MUST fire on a target you selected, you must have this in mind at step 2 (so no selecting targets you don't have weapons enough to fire at)

The only info that we KNOW at step 2 is:
-the unit that is shooting
-the weapons that will be used by that unit, including their ranges to ANY targets
-and finally, the targets selected.

We do NOT yet know which weapons will be assigned to which targets. That is determined at step 3.
Unless, of course you can guess correctly based off the ranges that were measured. So if target A was only selected because weapon X had range, but no other weapons has range, then obviously weapon X will be selected to fire at target A. But that is required to be known at step 2, just deductively reasoned.

-

Step 2 and Step 3 contradicts themselfs.

But as to what you guys are arguing about step 2

Having chosen a shooting unit, you must pick the target unit, or units, for the attacks. In order to target an enemy unit, a model from that unit mist be within range of the weapon being used (as listed on it's profile) and be visable to the shooting model.

You don't pick a target for your unit you pick a target for the attacks in step 2.
You can not pick a target that is out of range of the attack.

Untill you want to explain how your bypassing this I'm taking it as you don't have an answer?

Additionally at what point do you declair a weapon per target?
The reason I ask is under your interpretation nothing stops my knight selecting 6/7 targets despite having 4 weapons and should one of those targets being destroyed by the unit next to it exploding I can just reassign that weapon on the fly after shooting the first weapon.

**p5freak**

Ice_can wrote:

It says you pick a target for each attack though not model.
You attack with a weapon, not a model.

Picking a target is all that matters, not attacking. Thats when you have to play RIS, when an enemy targets your knight. It doesnt say you use RIS when your knight gets attacked.

**Ice_can**

p5freak wrote:
Ice_can wrote:

It says you pick a target for each attack though not model.
You attack with a weapon, not a model.

Picking a target is all that matters, not attacking. Thats when you have to play RIS, when an enemy targets your knight. It doesnt say you use RIS when your knight gets attacked.

Again the point your not answering is you make attacks with weapons not models.

**doctortom**

He did explain it.

Step 2 you declare a target. You determine if you have any weapons that are in range. If so, you can declare the unit a target. You do not declare which weapons are firing at the target at step 2, however, since you do not do that until step 3. You have measured the ranges to determine which weapons can be fired at the target in step 3, however.

Rotate Ion Shield is done in response to a knight being declared a target, so RIS is declared in response to being declared a target here in step 2.

Step 3 you declare which weapons are firing at which targets. They have to be weapons that are within range; you do not get to fire flamers at a target too far away (say one that can only be hit by a model's ironstorm missiles). . At least one weapon (that has to be within range) must fire at the target. At this step (and not before) all the weapons being fired are declared to be firing and what their targets are.

**U02dah4**

In 7 pages they hav'nt had a rules based answer.

Only RAI of range is continuously checked or you can't fire at a target out of range which they can't substantiate under RAW useing their interpretation.

Which is the huge flaw they ignore

**Galef**

Ice_can wrote:

You don't pick a target for your unit you pick a target for the attacks in step 2.
You can not pick a target that is out of range of the attack.

Untill you want to explain how your bypassing this I'm taking it as you don't have an answer?

Additionally at what point do you declair a weapon per target?
The reason I ask is under your interpretation nothing stops my knight selecting 6/7 targets despite having 4 weapons and should one of those targets being destroyed by the unit next to it exploding I can just reassign that weapon on the fly after shooting the first weapon.

I have "attacks" A, B, & C. Target X is in range of attack A & B, but not C. Target Y is in range of attacks B & C, but not A.
I can therefore select targets X & Y for my attacks. A can only select X, C can only select Y, but B can select either, to be determined at step 3

You then declare each "attack" i.e. weapon per target at step 3

And you are prevented from selecting more targets than you have attacks by common sense. You are selecting targets for your attacks, therefore you cannot select more targets than you have attacks.

U02dah4 wrote:
In 7 pages they hav'nt had a rules based answer.

It takes a lot to truly get under my skin and tempt my to break a forum rule, but really?? REMOVED I've had nothing BUT rules based answers

-

**doctortom**

U02dah4 wrote:
In 7 pages they hav'nt had a rules based answer.

Only RAI of range is continuously checked or you can't fire at a target out of range which they can't substantiate under RAW useing their interpretation.

Which is the huge flaw they ignore

As opposed to the flaw of ignoring that Step 3 explicitly states "Choose Ranged Weapons" and that the step tells you that you choose which weapons are firing at which targets.

RAW you are not told to declare which weapons are firing at which targets until step 3. Insisting that it happens at step 2 is not playing by RAW.

**BrookM**

Hey guys, just a friendly reminder that Rule #1 is not optional.

**U02dah4**

doctortom wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
In 7 pages they hav'nt had a rules based answer.

Only RAI of range is continuously checked or you can't fire at a target out of range which they can't substantiate under RAW useing their interpretation.

Which is the huge flaw they ignore

As opposed to the flaw of ignoring that Step 3 explicitly states "Choose Ranged Weapons" and that the step tells you that you choose which weapons are firing at which targets.

RAW you are not told to declare which weapons are firing at which targets until step 3. Insisting that it happens at step 2 is not playing by RAW.

It is one of two interprerations of the RAW

My point exactly you have been unable to demonstrate under your interpretation that you check range at step 3 onwards only that you select weapon at 3 so you ignore the issue yours cannot be valid unless you can.

**Galef**

U02dah4 wrote:

It is one of two interprerations of the RAW

My point exactly you have been unable to demonstrate under your interpretation that you check range at step 3 onwards only that you select weapon at 3 so you ignore the issue yours cannot be valid unless you can.

But I HAVE demonstrated that range is indeed checked at step 2, but also does not "lock in" the weapons until step 3:

Galef wrote:
I have "attacks" A, B, & C. Target X is in range of attack A & B, but not C. Target Y is in range of attacks B & C, but not A.
I can therefore select targets X & Y for my attacks. A can only select X, C can only select Y, but B can select either, to be determined at step 3

You then declare each "attack" i.e. weapon per target at step 3

A and C only have 1 possible target respectively as determined at step 2, and therefore must be selected at such targets at step 3.
B, however, was determined to have 2 valid targets at step 2, and therefore has 2 options at step 3.

I didn't have to declare any weapon to any target at step 2, just measure the range for my attacks to select valid targets.
If an attack has several valid targets, any of those targets may be measured to and selected.

-

**Ice_can**

doctortom wrote:
U02dah4 wrote:
In 7 pages they hav'nt had a rules based answer.

Only RAI of range is continuously checked or you can't fire at a target out of range which they can't substantiate under RAW useing their interpretation.

Which is the huge flaw they ignore

As opposed to the flaw of ignoring that Step 3 explicitly states "Choose Ranged Weapons" and that the step tells you that you choose which weapons are firing at which targets.

RAW you are not told to declare which weapons are firing at which targets until step 3. Insisting that it happens at step 2 is not playing by RAW.

No step 2 tells you what is being shot at what.

Step 3 is choose which weapon to resolve dice rolls for, then choose next weapon resolve dice rolls.

Not choose that lascannon X is shooting at target A while strom bolter is shooting at target B.