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How do?

So this is an entirely speculative thread, and one I’m afraid better suited to the sad old grognards, like myself. And intended to not derail the rumour thread, mmmkay?

Anyways.

It’s obvious enough that provided AT demonstrates staying power as a game (off to a good start though), the natural progression is to include Xenos forces, such as Orks and Eldar. And this is where us sad old grognards come in.

See, traditionally, Xenos Titans didn’t have a great deal of weapon variety. Less than even the venerable plastic Warlord Titan Weapon Sprue. For instance? Eldar. You had Vibro Cannons, Pulsar Cannon, Psychic Lance, Heat Lance and either a barragey Wing Weapon or Las-Cannon Battery Wing Weapon. Oh, and the powerfist.

Orks? Sadly memory fails on the name. Gutbuster Cannon was one (effectively a Titan missile launched, complete with various ammo. Chainshot was ‘orrible), Gatling Arm, Kannon Arm, Lifta-Droppa, Rippa and Snappa. Plus a selection of shoulder and head weapons. May have also been a Skorcha? Feel free to to fill in the blanks!

Clearly, pretty crappy variety compared to the Imperial/Chaos Warlord, which had loads of variety, even if some were stupidly specific and niche.

But what would you add to the Xenos armoury, and why? And no, ‘one hit wonders, because reasons’ aren’t fun. Ever. Even the Warp Missile, k?

My initial suggestion? An Eldar Titan Grade Monofilament Weapon, but with a psychic charge. Won’t do diddly to a superstructure, but instead is there to strip shields by settling over said shields, and providing allover stress, rather than a single focussed blow.

Orks - Shotgun with a bayonet and axe and choppa and spiky bits. Ergo I see them as having a lot of shots but poor accuracy. Along with a few BIG GUNZ that might be heavy on the template usage - so good enough to hit-em but might also hit your own boyz. I'd expect them to be somewhat similar to the Imperium in featuring a near 50/50 spread between close combat and ranged.


Eldar - snipers with katana. Ergo glass canons capable of having fewer high powered shots from strong ranged guns; with a focus on ranged weapons, however their fewer close combat weapons should be equally like a glass cannon - hitting hard but on more fragile titans.


Tyranids - Close combat specialist with ranged weapons. Acid closer range weapons, bile, spit and flamers coupled to tentacles, claws and mouths.
Eating enemy titans to regain health; spewing acid to melt armour; slashing and clawing to tear off arms; injectors designed to stab in and flood the interior with acid, gaunts and rippers to gear the titan apart from the inside!
Fast but not as fast as Eldar; but heavier armoured - good solid brawlers.






That said a lot depends how GW takes each army and how many units they get and what size. The more hull variety the greater the weapon variety there can be; the fewer the number of hulls then chances are the more generic msot of the weapons will be.

The Tyranid Titan weapons from Epic Hive War were:

Bile Launcher: One shot a turn weapon. Good armor penetration and good to-hit. Big bonus to damage table rolls. Splatter effect. Reasonable, but needed other weapons to strip enemy Titan shields first

Bio-Cannon: Solid if bland. Mix of decent number of shots, a small bonus to damage table rolls, but a 5+ to-hit. If you wanted ranged weapons, it was the no-brainer choice, with the 2nd arm either having another one or the Bile Launcher

Cluster Spines: Barrage weapon for general purpose anti-infantry or light/medium vehicle work. Similar to those mounted on the old Tyranid vehicle sized Haruspex and Malefactor. Why mount mere vehicle equivalent weapons on a TItan hardpoint though?

Lashwhip tendrils: The other head hardpoint choice and more of a defensive choice but probably the better one over the Pyro-acid Spray. Prevented enemy infantry from gaining bonuses for multiple combat and could neutralize an enemy Titan close combat weapon's special rules

Pyro-acid spray: Template weapon. Good armor modifier and ignored cover. Short range though. An overall meh weapon. Might get used simply because not much else could be mounted on the head hardpoint

Razorclaw: Basically Powerfist with additional frag-spines for mixed light vehicle/anti-infantry. Superior to Imperial Powerfist due to the secondary weapons and due to bonus on roll for ripping off Titan parts.

Spore Pods: Bolter equivalent shots for massed close range anti-infantry. Problem was why use a valuable Titan weapon hardpoint for bolter-equivalents?

Stinger Salvo: Anti-light vehicle and infantry roll. Large number of shots comparable to autocannon. Weakness was using up a valuable weapon hardpoint for a mediocre weapon more suitable for a vehicle.

The issue is there were only a few viable competitive choices, not helped by the fact the head hardpoint for the Hierophant had even more sharply restricted options.

I'd look at each race's artillery and knight-calibre weapons to 'overscale'.

Eldar:

Existing: D-Bombard (D-cannon/Wraithcannon), Pulsar (Pulse/Scatter Laser), Sonic Lance (Vibrocannon), Psychic Lance (kind of unique), Titan Glaive (wraithglaive/wraithsword)

No existing equivalent:
Deathspinner (there is a wraithknight version - simply upscale)
Fusion Gun (there is a wraithknight version - simply upscale)
Starcannon/Suncannon (I guess Solarcannon?)
Haywire weapon (grenades or dark eldar/harlequin weapons)
Vambrace Shield (Infantry or wraithknights - why not titans?)


Titan-calibre missile and shuriken weapons seems wrong; 'ammo-less' weapons seem more elegant. Some sort of massive 'hail of shuriken' weapon might work, but feels a bit uncultured - for massed indiscriminate fire, monofil feels more apt.

I think we need to take a step back and determine what archetypes the multitudinous Imperial weapons cover then decide which ones of those are ‘in-character’ for the Xenos at hand. Once that’s done, we can decide if there is something else that race should/would do but the Imperium can’t/won’t.
Then we can start fitting weapons to archetypes and fill in the gaps after that.

For instance we have the troop transport ‘weapon’ type - Corvus pods and such. This is something the Eldar wouldn’t do, I think, because frankly they have better, sneakier ways of moving infantry about. Orks, however, would be all over that; but the pod thing doesn’t seem Orky enough so what about a tellyporta array that can zap units in the gargant’s main troop bay right into the enemy Titan.

locarno24 wrote:
I'd look at each race's artillery and knight-calibre weapons to 'overscale'.

Eldar:

Existing: D-Bombard (D-cannon/Wraithcannon), Pulsar (Pulse/Scatter Laser), Sonic Lance (Vibrocannon), Psychic Lance (kind of unique), Titan Glaive (wraithglaive/wraithsword)

No existing equivalent:
Deathspinner (there is a wraithknight version - simply upscale)
Fusion Gun (there is a wraithknight version - simply upscale)
Starcannon/Suncannon (I guess Solarcannon?)
Haywire weapon (grenades or dark eldar/harlequin weapons)
Vambrace Shield (Infantry or wraithknights - why not titans?)

Titan-calibre missile and shuriken weapons seems wrong; 'ammo-less' weapons seem more elegant. Some sort of massive 'hail of shuriken' weapon might work, but feels a bit uncultured - for massed indiscriminate fire, monofil feels more apt.

I would add neurodisruptive (if it can be made different to psychic lance) and prismatic weaponry to that list.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I think we need to take a step back and determine what archetypes the multitudinous Imperial weapons cover then decide which ones of those are ‘in-character’ for the Xenos at hand. Once that’s done, we can decide if there is something else that race should/would do but the Imperium can’t/won’t.
Then we can start fitting weapons to archetypes and fill in the gaps after that.

For instance we have the troop transport ‘weapon’ type - Corvus pods and such. This is something the Eldar wouldn’t do, I think, because frankly they have better, sneakier ways of moving infantry about. Orks, however, would be all over that; but the pod thing doesn’t seem Orky enough so what about a tellyporta array that can zap units in the gargant’s main troop bay right into the enemy Titan.

A very fair point.

As is Nou’s. Though the Psychic Lance kind of did that. Zap a Titan, and it played merry bollocks with their MIU!

I think one key aspect is that most weapons are going to be attrition based. Because you might have 1 to 7 models per side you ideally don't want a weapon that can one-shot-blast an enemy titan down in a turn.

Instead you want weapons that have varied powers, but which all focus on attrition damage more or less.


Then throw in something super powerful that's got limits (eg one per army) and which might also have restrictions (eg takes 2 turns to power up to fire - high chance of backfire and reactor meltdown - very low accuracy etc...) so that its a gamble. It can one-shot a titan - but its the exception rather than the norm. It might nver make it into competitive builds but it would be a fun themed weapon if worded right (esp for orks)

I think the key to that last bit is going to be what resources the Titans have that can be expended for weapons fire. Neither Orks nor Eldar use plasma reactors for anything so ‘draining’ weapons have to do something else.

To this end, I propose that Ork and Eldar Titans, being closer to living organisms than Imperial ones (though approached from opposite ends) use a basically identical mechanic: crew. Or, in their terms, respectively, “Krew” and “Spirit Hosts” - essentially they start with enough to run the Titan fully but as damage accumulates and powerful weapons are used, these are depleted. These would be used instead of the plasma and Servitor Clades of the Imperium and fulfil both roles.

Eldar Titans did use plasma reactors. Forge World and GW now to differentiate the racial tech now calls them something different.

Ork Gargants ran on steam power. There was no way to one hit kill a Gargant in Epic. One had to inflict Fire results which would accumulate over time and degrade performance, and eventually the Fires would cause destruction of the Gargant. The Mega-Gargant was similar but did have the additional factor of Krew counters. The secondary weapons of its gun decks could only be fired if they had a Krew counter manning them. Again like normal Gargants, the Mega-Gargant could not be one hit killed and its performance degraded with Fire results, and eventually enough Fire results would overwhelm repair efforts and lead to destruction.

Endurance was the key feature about Ork Gargants in Epic. They could only be degraded not insta-killed. Aside from the Fires mechanic, they had more Power Fields than their equivalents had Void Shields, though Power Fields could not be restored once knocked down and they flickered so 1/6 shots would slip through without hitting a Power FIeld.

 Overread wrote:
I think one key aspect is that most weapons are going to be attrition based. Because you might have 1 to 7 models per side you ideally don't want a weapon that can one-shot-blast an enemy titan down in a turn.

Instead you want weapons that have varied powers, but which all focus on attrition damage more or less.


Then throw in something super powerful that's got limits (eg one per army) and which might also have restrictions (eg takes 2 turns to power up to fire - high chance of backfire and reactor meltdown - very low accuracy etc...) so that its a gamble. It can one-shot a titan - but its the exception rather than the norm. It might nver make it into competitive builds but it would be a fun themed weapon if worded right (esp for orks)

Such weapons were never really competitive in Epic. Partly that was due to balance, but partly due to the ablative nature of the way void shields and power fields worked (1 shield was guaranteed to stop 1 hit no matter how powerful). Such one-hit kill weapons were often either one use, or low fire rate, like one shot per turn, meaning higher risk of missing and losing all firepower due to dice rolling. For example, the Eldar Heat Lance which was basically an large scale Fusion Gun, had the potential to one hit kill any unshielded Titan at close range. At point blank range it was 2+ to hit, -6 armor save modifier, and +4 or +5 on damage table rolls. If it hit an unshielded Titan, it was almost guaranteed to penetrate almost any Titan armor location and inflict the maximum damage result which would kill it if it were a head or reactor location. However, it was 1 attack roll and its performance degraded rapidly til at its maximum range (which wasn't that great) it was 4+ to hit, -1 armor save, and either 0 or +1 to damage rolls. At that range, its performance was barely more than a lascannon. The Heat Lance was not competitive since it was too all or nothing, and required closing to very close range. What worked best in Epic was drowning the enemy under volume of fire, since that was good against void shields.

Eldar - I think their titans are inspired by Evangilion - never actually watched the series, but the *look* is very reminiscent. I suspect as stated above they should be glass cannons - hart to hit, hit very hard themselves, but if you can catch them, they go down quick. Would expect to see weapons that focus on precision and high damage rather than spray ‘n’ pray volume.

Orks - Plodding, generally mediocre at dealing damage with one or two powerful one-shot weapons. Really difficult to put down for once and for all. Shotguns and melee weapons abound. An upscaled Shokk Attack Gun would be interesting - essentially throwing gremlins literally into the enemy titan’s systems.

Tyranid - basically Kiajui; run the gamut of Godzilla and friends, as well as the Kaiju from Pacific Rim and the Robobeasts from Voltron. Primarily melee weapons, regenerative powers and a handful of powerful, but short-ranged breath weapons (plasma bolts, EMP bursts, over-time Acid spittle, webbing. Some units might even have flight or burrowing powers.

Tau - if they follow the old fluff, they probably won’t have anything larger than the Stormsurge (Knight-sized), but their units should have a lot of synergy (think the old Prism cannons from Epic where they could chain into stronger attacks). They also have access to some rather large vehicles that could be titan killers (such as the Manta, or something like the Super X from Godzilla). Suits that could combine into a larger war frame might fit them, but may be too silly for 40K.

Necron - Enlarged C’tan (a reimagining of the Nighterbringer, perhaps?) and perhaps monolithic buildings (Ziggarauts? Pyramids?) that spew swarms of titan-flaying ships (something akin to a Tomb Blade, but designed to swarm titans).

Admech - I’d like to see them get one at least one War Walker - a sort of titan-scaled tripod walker bristling with weird DAoT weapons. Also, could see them using “capture gear” - weapons designed to immobilize enemy units for disassembly and study during/after the battle. These would be the guys to give the old Statis missiles to.

Grey Knights - psititans, of course

Daemons - more daemon engines; organic machines with weapons designed to inflict negative statuses more so than damage - their ability to render an enemy titan useless makes up for a lack of being able to outright destroy it. Perhaps the ability to possess and eventually “turn” an enemy unit against its brethren (another reason to push weapons that disable instead of destroy).

The first art of eldar titans - 1e Codex Titanicus (1989) - predates Neon Genesis Evangelion (1995) by half a decade, so if anything it's the other way around....

Eldar titans are glass cannons, though - fast, hard to hit (holofields apply a penalty to hit based on your speed rather than a bank of damage-absorbing shields), generally armed with two powerful, precise arm weapons and a few point defences instead of three or four 'big guns' like imperial titans.


Ork titans have similar weapons to imperial ones - generally either solid-shot kannons, gatlings, upscaled blunderbusses, or big versions of the various mek weapons (lifta droppa, traktor kannon, zzap gun, bubble chukka). Lots of power fields (compared to imperial titans) but they're not as resilliant and they don't come back up once they blow out. Invariably some version of a mega-choppa or other close combat weapon. Steam boilers and lots of shouting instead of plasma and MIU means kill-shots are harder and you have to batter them to pieces bit by bit, but uncontrolled fires can do a lot of damage or kill you outright.

Tyranids have three titan-class beasts:
Hierodule - knight-equivalent, available from forgeworld
Hierophant - Reaver-equivalent, available from forgeworld
Hydraphant - only ever in epic. Bonded with a hive tyrant, it's called a Dominatrix. Hierodule sized but less well armed and massively, massively hard to kill. Dominatrix are also (just for extra lulz) titan-scale zoanthropes.


Tau - agreed - I would much rather see mantas, morays and scorpionfish gunships than even-larger-battlesuit.

Necrons - other than tesseract vaults, their big titan-equivalent was the aeonic orb in epic armageddon. A necrodermis sphere with the core of a star inside and a small door that they could point at someone and briefly open.


Admech - admech titans ARE the titan legions. But the ordinatus wouldn't go amiss (look at forgeworld's page). Ordinatus Saggitar is essentially a titan-scale jagdtiger.

Grey Knights - Psi-titans exist but they're not grey knights. The Ordo Sinister are part of the talons of the emperor (along with the sisters of silence and assassinorium) so if they're attached to anyone, the psi-titans are more accurately Adeptus Custodes units.


Daemons - exalted daemons can be titan-scale, but Daemon-titans exist. The Banelord titan (chaos warlord) for example.

Huh, wasn't aware Evangelion was made after Titanicus - learn something every day.

The heiorphant looks like ass, hope they scrap that design.

I'm aware Admech are the titan legions, but also having deep access to libraries of various worlds, would like to see them have a few "special" units that are Admech only and not normally available to the Titan Legions at large (i.e., "We keep the best stuff for ourselves, in case you ever get out of line")

Also the so-called Khornemower - wasn't that based on something previously from Epic - some sort of Khorne warengine, as I recall.

Yes. There were a handful of aligned greater deamon engines.

The Khorne Lord Of Battles (now lord of skulls)


The Slaanesh Subjugator Titan


The Nurgle Plague Tower


And the Tzeench Firelord


Plus generic chaos titans as mutated 'normal' titans, like the banelord.



The admech do have several military branches other than the skitarii and the collegia titanica. The one that has the wierd and wonderful stuff (on a war-engine scale, anyway) is the Centurio Ordinatus - which I'd mentioned previously. They already exist in 40k scale - at least, some smaller examples do - but they're not walkers; they're unique archeotech cannons trucked around on armoured flatbeds:

locarno24 wrote:

Tyranids have three titan-class beasts:
Hierodule - knight-equivalent, available from forgeworld
Hierophant - Reaver-equivalent, available from forgeworld
Hydraphant - only ever in epic. Bonded with a hive tyrant, it's called a Dominatrix. Hierodule sized but less well armed and massively, massively hard to kill. Dominatrix are also (just for extra lulz) titan-scale zoanthropes.

That's not quite right.
The Dominatrix was the super-heavy command beast that had a cradle on its back like the space jockey from Alien. It was the largest Synapse creature and effectively the leader and birther of ground swarms, with Hive Tyrants being its expendable lieutenants. In more recent editions, GW has shifted the focus from them to the more humanoid Hive Tyrants. It was psychic and was protected by a warp field and could fire warp blasts that could kill super heavies and Titans. Ordinary weapons consisted of a bio-cannon on its back and short range point-defense spores and spines.
The Hierodule was Reaver equivalent. It had 2 arm weapon mounts.
The Hierophant was Warlord equivalent. It had 2 arm weapon mounts, a head weapon mount, and could carry some infantry
The Hydraphant was an even larger biotitan that never had any models made for it.