Any way to make Codex: Space Marines viable

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**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
Dissy cannons? Plasma? Dark reapers? Even weird gak like primaris gatling weapons are super effective. If you rely on power armor in cover, drukhari splinter has some bad news for you.

It's always better to pay 4 pts/w than 13 pts/w at this point in 8th.

Plasma is only multi-damage on the overcharge, which means it's mutli-wounds at a risk.

Personally Dark Eldar aren't really a thing in my meta, and I've yet to hear about anyone spamming Dark Reapers. But my meta is a weird mix of competetive and rule of cool over just taking stuff due to pure numerical superiority.

Like I said, it's not impossible that there are metas who don't just outright spam the multi-damage weapons constantly. Different strokes and all that.

**Vilehydra**

Misread the post I was replying too - woops

**koooaei**

They are more than viable.

**bullyboy**

It really comes down to your local gaming scene. If you're going to go to a tournament, you have to expect people are going to take advantage of every best unit they can...it's a competition. Fluff means jack, and spam is often king.
However, if you play with a few like minded individuals, you can come to a gentleman's agreement on what forces to take, play a little more narrative, and have a lot of fun doing so. There are so many more ways to play this game than just show up with 1750-2000pts and duke it out with another person.
In our small gaming group I know we have 1-2 players that will push the more competitive type choices (still not to tournament level though) and another 1 or 2 that feed the fluff god. I can adjust my list accordingly knowing those parameters.

**Slayer-Fan123**

koooaei wrote:
They are more than viable.

That's a rich post coming from someone that supports the Grey Knight codex and crap entries like Crowe.

**Reemule**

I think the best way to fix the marine dex is to kill CP returning things in all factions, and then rework all the CP/stratagem system to be more in line with being a flavor, instead of the win loss parameter of the game.

**Karol**

So this would leave eldar with their very efficient Inari and no need to run CP farms to dominate even harder? I mean it is a possibility, but it doesn't help marine players much.

I hope that when ever they make the next index or GK codex, the points cost of units are 1/3 smaller. I don't know what GW is or was smoking, when they made dark reapers cheaper then GK termintors.

**dkoz**

CommunistNapkin wrote:
I've been running Imperial Fists in a local Slow-Grow, and currently I'm leading the league by a mile (beating out pretty much all other armies, including IG, Dark Eldar, and Custodes). Like some others, I've been using the Storm of Fire warlord trait to boost the potential damage of my shooting. We just finished our 1500 point league event, and will be playing at 1750 this weekend. This is what I'm currently running:

Battalion 1:
1x Captain with Stormbolter (upgraded to Primarch's Wrath relic) and Chainsword (upgraded to Chapter Master for 3 CP)
1x Lieutenant
3x 5-man Scout Squads with bolters
1x Devastator Squad with 9 marines + Armorium Cherub, 4 heavy bolters
2x Rhinos with double Stormbolters
1x Razorback with Twin Heavy Bolters, Stormbolter, Hunter-Killer Missile

Battalion 2:
1x Gravis Captain
1x Terminator Captain with Thunder Hammer, Stormshield
3x 5-man Primaris Intercessor Squads
3x Predators with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter sponsons, Stormbolter, Hunter-Killer Missile

The basic idea is a mobile gunline. Deployment is extremely important, as my deployment will vary greatly depending on the army my opponent will be playing. Against other long-ranged shooting forces, I will deploy very conservatively, such as starting with the Devastators in a Rhino behind terrain, and hiding my Predators to the best of my ability. Against mid or short-range shooting armies, or assault armies, I can deploy much more liberally, allowing my Predators and Devastators to start the game in LOS of valuable enemy targets. The Rhinos (and possibly Razorback, depending on the game) are used to clear away chaff infantry and then assault into the enemy guns, or the more mobile enemy chargers (such as Custodes Shield Captains on bikes). I have found the Rhinos to be the most valuable part of my army in that they are tough enough to survive against most things for a round of combat, denying enemy units the ability to shoot or charge. Against enemies that will likely kill a Rhino in a single round of combat, the Rhinos can usually move far enough to block their charge lanes, or be in the way of potential landing sites for units with FLY.

Also, Hellfire Rounds and Kill Shot are used when able and necessary. I generally expect a Predator to die on turn 1 as folks are very afraid of Killshot. The Terminator Captain and the Gravis Captain are okay. I use them as counter-charge or bully units, but don't expect a ton out of them. If I wanted to make the list more competitive, I would drop both and add another basic Captain and Lieutenant and use the points I saved for possibly another Devastator Squad or some such.

Ok this brings up a question for me aren’t Custodians on jet bikes just able to leave combat? Don’t they have that Fly keyword ability?

**CommunistNapkin**

dkoz wrote:
Ok this brings up a question for me aren’t Custodians on jet bikes just able to leave combat? Don’t they have that Fly keyword ability?

They can leave combat and shoot due to the FLY keyword, but they cannot charge if they do so, meaning they will be exposed for a turn. A bunch of bolter shots aren't particularly scary to anything in the list either, so their shooting is pretty trivial. Making sure they cannot charge and tie up or destroy something important such as the Predators or Devastators is a huge deal.

**dkoz**

CommunistNapkin wrote:
dkoz wrote:
Ok this brings up a question for me aren’t Custodians on jet bikes just able to leave combat? Don’t they have that Fly keyword ability?

They can leave combat and shoot due to the FLY keyword, but they cannot charge if they do so, meaning they will be exposed for a turn. A bunch of bolter shots aren't particularly scary to anything in the list either, so their shooting is pretty trivial. Making sure they cannot charge and tie up or destroy something important such as the Predators or Devastators is a huge deal.

Ok that makes sense their shooting is going to be less effective against tanks so keeping them interacting with something a little harder to kill.

**The Newman**

Insectum7 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

Most people assume that, but I take the exact opposite approach and take 70-80+ power armored guys, making it basically a skew list with a lot of shield bodies to take damage, plus transports to further defend it. Multi-wound weapons are basically a waste against straight old-school power armor, and big squads can soak damage pretty well. Old school marines can pack plenty of heavy weapons into a list, and with commander and lt. Buffs they do a lot of work.

Nobody here believes me, but that's just how it is.

I believe you, that's more or less what I'm doing. Captain, Lt, Ancient, min Tac and Dev squads with a spread of heavy weapons. Take 'em as Raven Guard and use Strike from the Shadows to try to wrong-foot my opponent into spreading out so I concentrate my troops and not have to take on his whole army at once.

Still feels like an uphill battle most games, but it doesn't feel hopelessly unbalanced.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because marines aren't good at taking damage for their cost. Taking more just makes your list more fragile.

That comes down to your meta. Some metas don't load up on autocannons like they're on a clearance sale at the Munititorium.

I don't know why you wouldn't. With the points penalty Marines pay for wargear (which they really really really should not be paying) the AC would be about 15 points on Tac or Dev squad, and at that price it would invalidate every other man-portable heavy and special weapon except the LasCannon and maybe the Missile Launcher if you're feeling generous.

**Tyel**

CommunistNapkin wrote:
I've been running Imperial Fists in a local Slow-Grow, and currently I'm leading the league by a mile (beating out pretty much all other armies, including IG, Dark Eldar, and Custodes).

I guess the question I want to know is how do you kill anything.

You are packing a reasonable amount of S4 and S5/AP1 shooting and not much else of higher strength beyond the 3 Preds and Stormhammer Captain. Ignoring cover is nice, rerolling 1s to hit and wound helps - but its very points inefficient firepower compared to what you should see in a guard or DE list. I mean you'd only expect all those heavy bolters to kill one venom a turn - and a lot of the time not even manage that.

This isn't meant to be accusatory - I just suspect you are the best player in the group.

What sort of DE lists are you encountering because:

2 archons with blasters
6 min kabs+blaster
6 venoms
3 ravagers

is under 1300 points (I think - memory could be off) and I'd fancy my chances at killing all 3 predators+devastators in turn 1 (I guess you'd hide them in a rhino, which might make it dicey - but I have several hundred spare points to dedicate to cracking it open). I'd then largely shrug off your return fire before proceeding to kill all the scouts and primaris turn 2. At which point you'd have a couple of tanks and characters left, while I'd have most of my army minus maybe a venom or two.

I admit though that this is a bit of a mean list to make a slow grow league. Ravagers are also increasingly hard to find.

**ClockworkZion**

The Newman wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
HoundsofDemos wrote:
My main issue, which is not unique to marines is that taking anything resembling a fluffy marine army hurts me. The more power armored guys I take, the less competitive I am and our transports are kinda meh. If I replicate a demi battle company or full company I have a list that isn't that good.

Most people assume that, but I take the exact opposite approach and take 70-80+ power armored guys, making it basically a skew list with a lot of shield bodies to take damage, plus transports to further defend it. Multi-wound weapons are basically a waste against straight old-school power armor, and big squads can soak damage pretty well. Old school marines can pack plenty of heavy weapons into a list, and with commander and lt. Buffs they do a lot of work.

Nobody here believes me, but that's just how it is.

I believe you, that's more or less what I'm doing. Captain, Lt, Ancient, min Tac and Dev squads with a spread of heavy weapons. Take 'em as Raven Guard and use Strike from the Shadows to try to wrong-foot my opponent into spreading out so I concentrate my troops and not have to take on his whole army at once.

Still feels like an uphill battle most games, but it doesn't feel hopelessly unbalanced.

ClockworkZion wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Because marines aren't good at taking damage for their cost. Taking more just makes your list more fragile.

That comes down to your meta. Some metas don't load up on autocannons like they're on a clearance sale at the Munititorium.

I don't know why you wouldn't. With the points penalty Marines pay for wargear (which they really really really should not be paying) the AC would be about 15 points on Tac or Dev squad, and at that price it would invalidate every other man-portable heavy and special weapon except the LasCannon and maybe the Missile Launcher if you're feeling generous.

It's more a comment that not every Guard army has so many autocannons that it's like they're going out of style. Heck, most tourament meta Guard are still loading up on mortars over AC in their units. If they take AC at all, they're on their tanks.