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2018/08/28 14:20:29
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
2018/08/28 14:28:14
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
This, Magnus through careful manipulation and his own arrogance doomed humanity to forever rely on warp travel. He essentially doomed his legion from the beginning by making increasingly bad deals with warp entities.
2018/08/28 20:07:18
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Mr Morden wrote: My only problem with the 30k Wolves (*) is the "we don't use the warp" and that no one of importance calls them out on this at the time.
By the above statement - both Legions should have been destroyed.
(*) the completely flanderised remnants that are the 40k ones are a different matter
Wolfsbane actually does have another Primarch call Russ out on this.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/28 20:31:44
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.
Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"
And the Whispering towers already knew about Horus' betrayal before Magnus broke into the webway. His arrogance and incapability of being humble or wise cased all this. All he had to do was do what the emperor told him. He was like a child and his abilities were just a toy, incapable of knowing his limits.
In Magnus's defense, when the threat is "your brother is going to literally destroy the universe", and daddy is the only one who can stop it but he's locked himself up somewhere and doesn't want to talk to anyone or tell you what he is doing, going to great lengths to transmit that message isn't unreasonable from Magnus' position.
The Emperor's inability to manage his projects and keep his staff informed is not Magnus' fault. Magnus was ignorant, but he was intentionally kept so. Blaming him when he's trying to raise an urgent alarm about a threat to literal reality itself is a wee bit silly
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2018/08/28 20:37:16
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
2018/08/28 20:59:32
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
The space wolves were lied to by Horus, who wanted to give the the thousand sons a reason to join his cause.
And even though I am a thousand sons player and identify with my blue space nerds, the truth is that the space wolves were kind of in the right. Da Emprah said to stop mucking about with the warp or suffer grave consequences, but nerds do so love their books.
So, while the thousand sons were chastised perhaps a trifle harshly, it wasn't really the space wolves fault either. They were deliberately misled by Horus, who used the enmity between the chapters for his benefit.
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
2018/08/28 21:04:56
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
Father of the year the Emperor is not.
2018/08/28 21:15:35
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
Father of the year the Emperor is not.
Source?
I can see the Emperor being that dumb but I'd rather he wasn't.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
2018/08/28 21:17:23
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
I don't really need to defend Russ' actions when even Magnus the Red himself is on record of stating that the Space Wolves are blameless for what happened on Prospero.
2018/08/28 21:29:08
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
HoundsofDemos wrote: Trust goes both ways, so in that sense both Magnus and the Emperor messed up. The majority of the Heresy would not have happened if the Emperor had read in at least a few of his sons to what he was actually up to. Magnus should have listened to his Dad, but he probably would have if Dad wasn't a secretive jerk.
Dad was pretty much an emotionally distant jerk who didn't understand human emotions or care otherwise.
I mean his final plan for the Primarchs when he was done with the crusade was to stuff them deep underground in their own personal rooms in the palace, essentially gilded cages created just for them.
Father of the year the Emperor is not.
Source?
I can see the Emperor being that dumb but I'd rather he wasn't.
I can't remember the exact source, it might have been Deliverance lost. where someone, Corax I THINK, saw a collection of apartments and concluded they where set aside for the primarchs retirement. thinking on it though what if those had been intended for them to grow up in if the primarchs hadn't been scattered?
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/28 22:39:47
Subject: Re:Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BlaxicanX wrote: I don't really need to defend Russ' actions when even Magnus the Red himself is on record of stating that the Space Wolves are blameless for what happened on Prospero.
Magnus kind of has a history of blaming himself for everything. I think if you were to ask, say, Ahriman, he would have a very different opinion on the Space Wolves' actions.
2018/08/28 22:45:47
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Yes, but no one would care about what Ahriman has to say when at odds with Magnus. Magnus knows the Emperor and also knows how he thinks, Ahriman does not. Magnus knows Russ and Horus, Ahriman does not. By virtue of being Magnus and a Primarch the gulf between what Ahriman can understand with his limited perspective of the events and Magnus is infinite. It's like taking a child's narrative of an event and holding it to the same degree as a police officer's.
Furthermore, Magnus is not blaming himself when he says that Russ did nothing wrong, so I don't see what that has to do with anything.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/28 22:48:37
2018/08/29 01:34:50
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
You're massively overrating the primarchs and the Emperor. For one, nobody understood the motivations of the Emperor because the Emperor's motivations were absolutely stupid and if the primarchs knew about them they would have all joined Horus. Everything the Emperor did, including turning the loyalist legions against the Thousand Sons through Nikaea, was moving towards the ultimate goal of the extermination of the legions so he could replace them with his preferred banana boys. The deific separation from humanity that the Emperor and the primarchs have is far more weakness than strength, and it's quite clear throughout the entire arc of the Thousand Sons that Ahriman is the superior representative of the legion's ideals compared to Magnus.
2018/08/29 06:03:30
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 06:10:49
2018/08/29 06:40:57
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Do we know exactly what Horus said to Russ when he was dispatched? I'd say that's a HUUUGE piece of missing info if not, info that may have made the extreme actions on Prosperio make PERFECT sense.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/29 06:57:07
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Wrong, Russ did not want to do what he did, Magnus even admitted to such.
"‘I don’t want to upset my brother,’ replied Russ.
‘Why? What might he do?’ asked Hawser, swallowing hard. The question he’d really wanted to ask
was, who is your brother?
‘Something stupid that we’d all regret for a damned long time,’ said Russ. ‘We’re just here to make
sure he arrives at the right decision. And if he doesn’t, we’re here to make sure the repercussions of
the wrong decision are restricted to a bare minimum.’
‘You’re talking about another primarch,’said Hawser.
‘Yes, I am.’
‘You’re talking about taking arms against another primarch?’
‘Yes. If needs be. Funny, I always seem to get the dirty jobs.’
The Wolf King rose to his feet and stretched.
‘The moment you came in here, ser,’ Russ said, mocking Hawser’s use of the honorific, ‘the
scramble-your-guts sisters blocked whatever was playing with your head. I’d be very interested to
know who was handling you.’ Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
"It is also a lament. This was a sad necessity regretted by all. It gave no pleasure to perform it, not
even the reward of glory. The prosecution of a fellow Legion, even when it is done so successfully, is
no easy thing to square in a man’s mind. This has ever been the burden of the Wolves of the Sixth
Astartes that their calling as the Allfather’s chosen hunters places a solemn burden of responsibility
on their shoulders greater than any endured by other Legions. There is no shame in admitting this is an
account of sorrow, a mournful thing. It is an account we could happily wash away from our memories
and wish undone" Ogvai
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Easily, they were ordered to do what they did. And before you say 'yeah but Russ should have questioned it or said no' Russ was the executioner, he'd done it before, its what they were made for and wouldn't be an unthinkable thing, in fact it was predicted and reasonable to follow that order given how seriously the Emperor warned against breaking the council of nikaea:
'"Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light."
'"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time"
End of.
But it wasn't the space wolves place to unilaterally decide that THEY were that judgment. The emperor ordered Russ to arrest Magnus and disarm the Thousand Sons. Fair. Horus changed the orders to "kill Magnus and purge the Thousand Sons". I think if Russ weren't so blinded by his hatred of Magnus he wouldn't have fallen for that lie so easily, but still fair I guess. What WASN'T fair in my mind was Russ deciding that everyone on the planet needed to die, whether they were a Thousand Son or not, and the burning of the libraries which arguably did comparable damage to the future of humanity as Magnus ruining the webway project.
Why were the innocent civilians on Prospero slaughtered? Why were the libraries burned and so much knowledge lost? Was it because it was ordered by the Emperor or Horus? No. It was because of a petty grudge that Russ held against Magnus, that was rooted in superstition, and given official sanction by a Custode who let his feelings override his sense of duty and propriety. Valdor knew the Emperor wanted Magnus alive and still went along with the entire thing because Magnus got a lot of his friends killed when the webway was breached. If the emperor ever found out how Valdor went against his wishes I suspect Valdor would have been executed for treason.
Do we know exactly what Horus said to Russ when he was dispatched? I'd say that's a HUUUGE piece of missing info if not, info that may have made the extreme actions on Prosperio make PERFECT sense.
It was an astropathic message, so it would have been pretty simple and direct.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 07:01:43
2018/08/29 08:03:14
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
Firstly, that quote is from BEFORE the wolves attacked Prospero and has nothing to do with their attitude as they were attacking the planet. Secondly, it doesn't show that Russ never wanted to attack the thousand sons, he merely said it was a "dirty business" but actually seems pretty nonchalant about the entire thing, which makes sense considering he has done it before.
There are numerous lore examples of Russ basically saying: "Fethers on Prospero deserved what they got" pretty much every time he was asked about the incident, and only seemed mad about the fact that Horus tricked him into it. Russ was almost totally unrepentant about the entire thing. Only the rune priests and some of the higher up space wolf officers seemed to show any kind of remorse, and even then they never said anything to Russ' face. When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra despite being so against it at the council of Nikaea and basically genociding Prospero for doing the same thing, Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
Lastly, the fact that Russ was not ordered to kill civilians by either Horus nor the Emperor and yet he still did it anyway seems like pretty damning evidence that he "wanted" to do it. What other reason would he have for doing it?
EDIT: Remember, the attack was so needlessly brutal that both Sanguinius and Khan were ready to attack the wolves straight up. Even after finding out the truth, Khan still had a hard time believing that the orders (supposedly) came from the emperor because there is no way in hell (in Khan's mind) that the emperor would ever order something like that.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 08:11:07
2018/08/29 08:06:48
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Russ at Nikaea even after Magnus killed his men, Russ never wanted to do what he did.
Firstly, that quote is from BEFORE the wolves attacked Prospero and has nothing to do with their attitude as they were attacking the planet. Secondly, it doesn't show that Russ never wanted to attack the thousand sons, he merely said it was a "dirty business" but actually seems pretty nonchalant about the entire thing.
There are numerous lore examples of Russ basically saying: "Fethers on Prospero deserved what they got" pretty much every time he was asked about the incident, and only seemed mad about the fact that Horus tricked him into it. Russ was almost totally unrepentant about the entire incident. Only the rune priests and some of the higher up space wolf officers seemed to show any kind of remorse, and even then they never said anything to Russ' face. When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
Lastly, the fact that Russ was not ordered to kill civilians by either Horus nor the Emperor and yet he still did it anyway seems like pretty damning evidence that he "wanted" to do it. What other reason would he have for doing it?
Yeah because I stated that quote was during Nikaea, but it shows he doesn't just irrationally hate Magnus. Show one quote where Russ said they got what they deserved. Magnus knew himself that Russ didn't want to do it, he said so. He even said that he wanted to limit the extent of sanctions against Magnus. Even if Russ hated him and wanted to kill him, its still irrelevant, he would have done what he did regardless of wanting it or not, Horus was the one that did it, Russ and the VI were just the tool.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 08:28:22
2018/08/29 08:48:02
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
w1zard wrote: When Dorn confronts Russ about his hypocrisy with using rune priests and accepting the use of psykers after the Seige of Terra despite being so against it at the council of Nikaea and basically genociding Prospero for doing the same thing, Russ flies into a rage and attacks Dorn IIRC.
.
err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
Spoiler:
‘You think me a fool, brother?’ said Russ, with dangerous innocence.
‘I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?’
This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. ‘Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?’
‘You express regret for that now?’ said Dorn. ‘Last I heard you were crowing about it.‘
I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus’ sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.
Dorn sighed sadly, and looked down at his slate of plans. ‘And that is Magnus Talking'
‘Perhaps,’ said Russ honestly. ‘But I was not wrong to call for Magnus’ sanction, nor was I wrong to call for the suppression of the Librarius as it was. Who knows where Magnus’ path would have led had he been let alone? He might have won the war, but would we then have had another Horus to contend with, or maybe two? The Librarius could have proven as poisonous as the thrice-damned lodges.’
‘The great proponent of the Nikaean edict, who kept his own sorcerers. You have many qualities, my brother,’ said Dorn. ‘I never thought to say hypocrisy was one
.‘Is it? The priests of my Legion and the Stormseers of Jaghatai’s are different to the Librarians that were. Our warriors draw on an older tradition. A limited tradition. Magnus did not believe in limits. That was his error.’
‘Similar traditions were outlawed by our father on every world,’ said Dorn hotly.
‘We have seen where His close-mouthedness on the matter of the warp has got us,’ Russ scoffed
Sanguinius made a silent gesture of agreement.
‘Leman is right,’ said the Khan. ‘Our seers do not draw directly on the warp. Their gifts are mediated. We know what limits are.’
‘Limits on power?’ said Dorn. ‘Power has no limits. Every morsel of power engenders more hunger. It is never satisfied. A man’s soul needs to be a fortress.’
‘Not limits of power, Rogal,’ said Jaghatai. ‘Our limits are those of human wisdom. You look for enlightenment in the wrong place. Wisdom is the limit that must be observed.’
‘So now humility can tame the powers of the warp,’ said Dorn. ‘This is ridiculous.’
‘Humility is one of the ways,’ said Jaghatai. ‘Our father is a psyker, so is Sanguinius, and Malcador.’
‘The enemy fears the warp as much as they plunge themselves into it,’ said Leman Russ. ‘We must use it,’ he held up his hands, ‘safely, to help us win this war
‘I still name you hypocrite. How can you stand it, Jaghatai? He opposed you at Nikaea.’
‘That was then, this is now. Dwelling on the past will solve nothing,’ said the Khan. ‘We must stand united.
So no, he did NOT fly into a rage. and IMHO this passage is proably the best summery of Russ' views on Warp craft. My apology for the massive quote, but in this case I think it's partiuclarly revealing with regards to the subject at hand.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 08:50:51
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/29 08:48:30
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 09:02:40
2018/08/29 08:51:33
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/29 08:57:45
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
2018/08/29 09:33:02
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/08/29 09:36:22
2018/08/29 11:14:38
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
except they didn't know he'd turned to Chaos at the time, Magnus had basicly dissappered from the galaxy as far as they all knew at the time.
now that said, what Russ says on Psykers is intreasting, as it basicly amounts to "our psykers had some time honored skills and abilities they knew, ones that by virtue of long practice we're comfortable are safe. Magnus meanwhile pushed the limits and went into areas fo warp craft best untouched" I say this is intreasting as this seems to be the Imperium's view on Psykers, such as the Librarius in M 41. so it would seem this nuanced "psykers but only within approved limits" view is the one that did indeed catch on.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2018/08/29 11:46:44
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Here is the exact contents of the emperor's orders:
"By the Word and the Will of the Master of Mankind, Imperatoris, Terra Regnum, It is hereby decreed that Magnus, Primarch of the XV Legiones Astartes, be bought forth in censure and bound by law to stand before the Throne Imperial of Terra, there to answer for his actions and those of his gene-sons. To this end is Leman Russ, Primarch of the VI1" legiones Astartes, so charged upon the deliverance of his ·brother, by any and all means he may find needful, without limit in law, sanction or imposition of attainder, unto the limitless void and the last day. So it is written, so it shall be." Page 16 Inferno
Nowhere in there does it say to kill Magnus or exterminate the populace.
BrianDavion wrote: err no, that's not what happens at all. Alright gonna post a biiig block of text from Wolfsbane, apologies in advance.
*snip*
Yes, that is the quote I was looking for. Ok, I mis-remembered Russ getting angry, but my point still stands.
Russ has no regrets over Prospero. He may not have liked being used by Horus, but he's not shedding any tears over Magnus or the Thousand Sons. As much as I like Sanguinius and Khan, and as much as I generally dislike Dorn, I think he is right here. The excuse "b-but OUR psykers are different!" is just a flimsy, hypocritical attempt at self-justification.
BrianDavion wrote: Russ also outright says Magnus got what he deserved in Wolfsbane. I can find a page referance of the quote I posted earlier if Del wishes to verify for himself.
Please, I no longer have Wolfsbane in my possession and would like it posted here for posterity.
Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
except they didn't know he'd turned to Chaos at the time, Magnus had basicly dissappered from the galaxy as far as they all knew at the time.
now that said, what Russ says on Psykers is intreasting, as it basicly amounts to "our psykers had some time honored skills and abilities they knew, ones that by virtue of long practice we're comfortable are safe. Magnus meanwhile pushed the limits and went into areas fo warp craft best untouched" I say this is intreasting as this seems to be the Imperium's view on Psykers, such as the Librarius in M 41. so it would seem this nuanced "psykers but only within approved limits" view is the one that did indeed catch on.
Read the quote you posted again.
2018/08/29 12:26:18
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
TapedTempest wrote: As the title suggests, I intend for this to be some sort of "writing challenge". From what I've seen, most people believe that the Thousand Sons were at no fault and were purely victims. Most evidence that I've seen supports this argument, which is what makes defending this side of the argument a bit challenging. The purpose of this "challenge" is to use evidence and logic to defend the Space Wolves for the destruction of Prospero and the Thousand Sons, and although at first you may not believe in what you're writing, you and those who read your argument may come to a new way of thinking.
Good luck and have fun!
(Note: This isn't meant to be a debate about whether the Space Wolves were right or wrong, but a persuasive argument. That said, I do encourage disputing points for the purpose of further understanding on the subject.)
Yes.
Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
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2018/08/29 12:31:27
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
Magnus only turned to chaos because of the Battle of Prospero. It is true that he had been UNWITTINGLY serving chaos the entire time, but if Russ arrested him and brought him to Terra like the Emperor wanted, the Thousand Sons and by extension Magnus, might have never fallen to chaos.
Magnus was forced into embracing chaos because the only other option was letting Russ execute him and genocide everything he had ever known and loved. Are you seriously saying that Magnus being forced into the service of chaos justifies the very atrocities that forced him into the service of chaos in the first place?
That's like me attacking you with a knife, you defending yourself, and then I kill you and call it "self-defense".
2018/08/29 12:38:13
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Delvarus Centurion wrote: Getting what he deserved and not wanting to do it are two different things. He said he deserved it well after the fact, Wolsbane happened after and after Magnus turned to chaos so its pretty obvious that he did get what he deserved.
Magnus only turned to chaos because of the Battle of Prospero. It is true that he had been UNWITTINGLY serving chaos the entire time, but if Russ arrested him and brought him to Terra like the Emperor wanted, the Thousand Sons and by extension Magnus, might have never fallen to chaos.
Magnus was forced into embracing chaos because the only other option was letting Russ execute him and genocide everything he had ever known and loved. Are you seriously saying that Magnus being forced into the service of chaos justifies the very atrocities that forced him into the service of chaos in the first place?
That's like me attacking you with a knife, you defending yourself, and then I kill you and call it "self-defense".
Shoulda woulda coulda, you have no idea what would happen. Magnus' actions showed he'd never stop with the sorcery. He wasn't forced into turning to chaos at all, he chose to turn traitor. He used sorcery even after the daemon told him that he had bargained away his soul.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 12:39:34
2018/08/29 12:38:25
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Deadshot wrote: Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
2018/08/29 12:41:47
Subject: Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?
Deadshot wrote: Russ received an order from a superior officer - the 2nd in command of the entire Imperium and most trusted person besides the Emperor himself.
There was precedent for the order. It is implied the Emperor used the Wolves to destroy one or both of the II and XI. If this had not been the case it might seem mad but if this was just another job, there would be no reason to argue.
Magnus deliberately defied the Emperor's explicit order to his face. The Emperor directly ordered the detainment of Magnus. Magnus and his legion were known to be users of dangerous sorceries.
Combined, there are no reasons for Russ to doubt the sincerity of the order and that it came from the Emperor himself. As far as he knew, he was just taking care of a dangerous traitor. There's no argument to be made.
If a General orders me to do something, and then a Colonel comes along and tells me to do something in contradiction of the General's orders (even if he says the orders come from the General) I sure as hell am getting clarification before I do anything.
Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down (See Perturabo's order to decimate his homeworld and how he was universally condemned). The fact that Russ either didn't turn down Horus' order to slaughter the entire population, or that he did it on his own initiative makes him complicit in my eyes.
Horus was not a Colonel, he had full athourity when it came to the great crusade. Why on earth would he not follow Horus' plan, he had no idea of the treachery.
"Russ didn't think too hard about the order change because deep down he always wanted to fight Magnus, and thought the Emperor was going too soft on him. Also, and order to massacre the entire population of a loyal Imperial planet is an illegal order, and something that Russ should have turned down" complete conjecture, no lore to back that up at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 12:43:26
