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 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

He could have idk traveled to Terra and talked to him, something that almost every one of his loyalist brothers managed even after the heresy kicked off.

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?

Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

That's over selling how communication works in 40k. Magnus decided that the emperor needed to know right away which is not a bad assumption. However there were less risky ways to get that info to the Emperor. Magnus played right into chaos's hands by doing the worst possible thing. It really should not be underplayed how much his actions doomed humanity into forever needing the warp.

If memory serves wasn't the Emperor completely absorbed in his webway project and cut off from outside contact during this time?

Exactly - Magnus had no clue what was happening. For a self-proclaimed knowledge seeker and having made his entire defense at Nikaea centred around a desire to eradicate ignorance, he's certainly a dumb-ass when it comes to this one moment.

And yes, the Emperor was cut off. And when I was a kid, and my dad was at work, and he told me not to call his mobile while he was at work, I DEFINITELY didn't call him on the office switchboard.

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

Also this. Magnus didn't stop once to question why there was a barrier up, what the barrier was barricading and why a Warp-entity was keen to smash through. He just assumed it was Mr Nice Friendly Warp Creature offering him a helping hand out of love.

At the very least, Magnus was guilty of consorting with unknown Xenos forces.

I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.

I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.

Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.

Again though this is a false analogy. Even after Horus's corruption, he spent months planning Istavaan 3 and the Heresy lasted years. Magnus had plenty of time to go to Tera in person and talk to dad. This isn't the house is on fire. This is I know something bad is coming in a few weeks and rather than make bad deals with strange warp entities and break into my dads office from across the galaxy, maybe I go to his house and knock on the door.

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?

He could also have not broken anything and just travelled there himself. Or contacted someone else on Terra. Or used astropaths. Or send some Thousand Sons. There were much better options.

I think if Magnus walked onto to Terra and started telling people about Horus and his betrayal someone might have gone to get the Emperor.

None of which would have been able to contact him, given he basically locked the door and went deep into work to the point where normal communication was impossible as people keep bringing up in the thread itself.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.

I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.

Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.

On a personal note - if my dad said don't call at work, that included if there were literal Daemons of Khorne murdering everyone in the street and a crazed Space Wolf tearing gak up.


As said above, Horus wasn't burning down the house, Horus was buying cigarettes and vodka for a midnight bash in the park with his friends. That can wait until Dad gets home.

Besides, the house can be rebuilt. The magical wards to protect an interdimensional network that allows us to get to and from places without worrying about evil gods killing everything is a variety of ways is vastly more important than an little civil war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
None of which would have been able to contact him, given he basically locked the door and went deep into work to the point where normal communication was impossible as people keep bringing up in the thread itself.

The Emperor was not so far removed that he couldnt sense that Magnus was on Terra and ranting about Horus. Also don't forget that the Wards were around Terra - Magnus could have gone to see him in person, face to face, there was literally nothing stopping that.

Could the Custodes not get his attention, if needed?

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Magnus didn't need to destroy everything in the process of talking to the Big E though did he?

IIRC the damage he cause was unintentional, he had no idea what was going on, but had no other way to contact the Emperor directly.

He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

Right, but he didn't know what would happen, and galaxy-wide apocalypse war with the forces of daemonic unreality led by your brother to destroy everything you and your brothers and father have built is probably worth breaking a rule or two over.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

Was not the Emperor sitting in "do not call mode" in the otherwise inaccessible Imperial Webway?

He could also have not broken anything and just travelled there himself. Or contacted someone else on Terra. Or used astropaths. Or send some Thousand Sons. There were much better options.

I mean, when BigE is not taking visitors, and Magnus has been sent to his room, and the method by which you have come by your information is likely to get a messenger arrested or killed or the like, and when Horus and his or Erebus's operatives could find out about or intercept such a message, it doesn't seem too ridiculous.

I think if Magnus walked onto to Terra and started telling people about Horus and his betrayal someone might have gone to get the Emperor.

Magnus point blank shared minds with the Emperor and directly transmitted his visions and Big E just ignored it, who's to say anyone else was going to believe him? Horus was the beloved "can do no wrong" son, Magnus had just been sent to time out for being a naughty boy, showing up saying "hey I had a sorcerous vision that the perfect child is totes gonna turn on Big E and we should do something about that...why are you all laughing? No don't call the bailiffs, hey wait I'm trying to..."

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again though this is a false analogy. Even after Horus's corruption, he spent months planning Istavaan 3 and the Heresy lasted years. Magnus had plenty of time to go to Tera in person and talk to dad.

That assumes that Magnus knew Horus' timing, I don't recall him knowing that, though I could be wrong. Also, again, Big E is hiding away in the webway not talking to anyone at this point.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
I mean, if your brother is getting ready burn down the house with everyone inside it, maybe the thing about not calling the mobile phone gets set aside? It's hard to imagine anything taking precedence over that, even powerful wards and spells that indicate danger, particularly when Dad is intentionally keeping you in the dark about what he's doing.

I'd totally call the switchboard at work if my siblings were trying to burn the house down.

Magnus can reasonably be called ignorant, but the Emperor, for whatever reason GW decided, comes off as a total moron here who's basically at fault for everything because he can't be bothered to actually lead anyone, pay attention to anything going on, or listen to anything people are telling him.

On a personal note - if my dad said don't call at work, that included if there were literal Daemons of Khorne murdering everyone in the street and a crazed Space Wolf tearing gak up.

And that's how beach landings in Normandy go unchallenged until its too late

As said above, Horus wasn't burning down the house, Horus was buying cigarettes and vodka for a midnight bash in the park with his friends. That can wait until Dad gets home.

At that exact literal moment? Sure. Magnus saw much more that would happen however.

Besides, the house can be rebuilt. The magical wards to protect an interdimensional network that allows us to get to and from places without worrying about evil gods killing everything is a variety of ways is vastly more important than an little civil war.

Well, when that civil war will destroy all the work on that network or subvert it, and when nobody else knows about said network and only know about the house which they spent all their lives building, others can be excused for not recognizing the higher priority.

The Emperor was not so far removed that he couldnt sense that Magnus was on Terra and ranting about Horus.

We have no idea about that, if he was removed enough that a simple psychic message required busting god-level psychic wards, assuming Big E would hear the doorbell may be a bit hopeful.

Also don't forget that the Wards were around Terra - Magnus could have gone to see him in person, face to face, there was literally nothing stopping that.

I mean, except for the fact that he could have been intercepted or tipped had his warning leak out and tip off Horus on en route, and he'd have to explain to multiple people how he'd broken the rules as to how he got his info, who likely then would not have believed him.

Magnus never actually shared anything. He got to the Emperor, realised what he did and the spell fell apart.

Is that a new retcon? I dont have anything in front of me at work, but everything I recall hs him meeting minds with the Emperor.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Is that a new retcon? I dont have anything in front of me at work, but everything I recall hs him meeting minds with the Emperor.

It might just be me misremembering but what I remember happening is that before Magnus shared his news on Horus he realised what he'd done by breaking the Webway and the resulting break in concentration ended the spell before he could even say sorry.

The psychic shockwave of Magnus breaking through to Terra killed millions of people, destroyed most of the whispering towers, killed most of the Astropaths etc. He let Daemons into the webway. He came in the form of a daemon, he told the Emperor about Horus but realised the Emperor already knew, as word reached the whispering towers before Magnus came to Terra. Then The Emperor showed Magnus of his plans, and his plans for Magnus and how he had destroyed the Imperiums future. Then Magnus got back to Prospero and ran into a room crying.

Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

That's why he is the worst character, he was the brightest and most knowledgeable out of all the other Primarchs, though he didn't have an ounce of wisdom. He was arrogant and would even boast how not even the Emperor could see into his command tent because of the wards he'd set up, he even thought he uncovered the webway, thinking the Emperor had no idea about it.

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"

Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either

 Vaktathi wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"

Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either

I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

"Hey, I know y'all just sent me to my room for using psychic powers, but hey, ah, I received a psychic vision about the Big E's favorite and totally trusted son, the beloved Warmaster, turning traitor. Could you go let Dad know I'm here? Oh, he's been locked away out of contact with everyone doing who knows what and isn't taking visitors? Well yeah, it's me and my closest several thousand pals totally here with our ships and weapons without orders to help fight off my traitorous brother everyone loves so much...wait why is everyone staring at me like I'm crazy? What are you talking about insurrection? That's what I'm trying to warn you about. Why are the anti-orbital guns locking onto my ships?"

Hubris is a failing of Magnus, but there was absolutely valid logic in his actions. It's also not like all the other Primarchs weren't also raging arrogant egomaniacs either

His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better". Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.

He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion. Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway. I'm not a SW fan at all but Magnus was 100% in the wrong and everything that happened to him was 100% his fault. Even his locking himself in his room instead of taking comman of his sons so they would surrender without a fight was a terrible choice.

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

IMHO Magnus wasn't just looking to warn the Emperor, in fact that was his secondary concern, his main concern, weather he knew it or not was Vindication. being proven right. and instead he proved himself wrong. That explains his despair, not only did he screw up b ig time, but he basicly ensured that he had lost the "Debate"

BrianDavion wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Many Magnus defenders seem to forget that he had an entire fleet that he could have simply flown back to terra not only to warn the emperor to combine with his forces for the upcoming heresy. Magnus chose the literally worst path by doing something his father had already told him to stop. He's the perfect example of having hubris lead you down the road to damnation. He single-handedly doomed all of humanity because he couldn't follow a simple order

IMHO Magnus wasn't just looking to warn the Emperor, in fact that was his secondary concern, his main concern, weather he knew it or not was Vindication. being proven right. and instead he proved himself wrong. That explains his despair, not only did he screw up b ig time, but he basicly ensured that he had lost the "Debate"

Exactly it was his "I know better" hubris that caused him to act like an idiot. He proved everyone that argued against him completely right

pm713 wrote:

I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.

In hindsight, doing nothing would have been his best course of action, but that's 20/20. Hoping that a randomly stumbled upon Custodes is going to believe him and his Warp visions, send on that message, and somehow ensure it reaches the incommunicado Emperor, wherever he is, doesn't sound like a great way to raise the alarm about a galaxy wide war with daemons led by your Warmaster brother. Especially if word leaks in that game of telephone and Horus or others find out about it and turn it against Magnus.


Magnus's choice had consequences, consequences that ended up benefitting nobody but the dark powers, but attempting to contact the Emperor directly from his perspective was not illogical at the time.

Asmodios wrote:

His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better".

Sure, he was wrong there, but that's a different issue.

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.

He saw a threat and acted on it. He was ignorant of aspects, but the Emperor also could have enlightened him and...chose not to.

From the point where Magnus sees the coming war, his actions are not illogical. He knows others are unlikely to believe him, he knows the method through which he gathered the information was a no-no, he knows that others could intercept a courrier or other messaging methods, but the threat was dire and imagining something worse was probably not possible and the alarm needed to be raised.

He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion.

Showing up with his entire legion to warn the emperor, who was not taking visitors, about his warp-delivered visions of his brothers betrayal would likely have gone down...at least as poorly. It just wouldn't have involved the Space Wolves and Prospero.

Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway.

We have no idea what the logistics of that campaign would look like, gathering at Terra would not have been an automatic thing to do. That would depend on the how the various legions were already arrayed, logistics, current conquest warzones, etc.

 Vaktathi wrote:

pm713 wrote:

I think rocking up in system, sending the fleet to somewhere it's easily dealt with and going to Terra alone to find a Custodes/whoever was in charge and saying Horus has gone whacko is a much better plan than sulking and watching his legion die before reversing his choice and helping Horus.

In hindsight, doing nothing would have been his best course of action, but that's 20/20. Hoping that a randomly stumbled upon Custodes is going to believe him and his Warp visions, send on that message, and somehow ensure it reaches the incommunicado Emperor, wherever he is, doesn't sound like a great way to raise the alarm about a galaxy wide war with daemons led by your Warmaster brother. Especially if word leaks in that game of telephone and Horus or others find out about it and turn it against Magnus.


Magnus's choice had consequences, consequences that ended up benefitting nobody but the dark powers, but attempting to contact the Emperor directly from his perspective was not illogical at the time.

Asmodios wrote:

His "logic" was terrible. He got direct orders from the strongest being in the universe to not keep screwing with the warp.... so he continues to screw with the warp because "he knows better".

Sure, he was wrong there, but that's a different issue.

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Then he sees that his brother has fallen to chaos so he decides to just mess with the warp (after being told not to). Then he runs into a psychic barrier between him and his father (that told him not to mess with the warp) so he consults a being from the warp to rip down the wall.

He saw a threat and acted on it. He was ignorant of aspects, but the Emperor also could have enlightened him and...chose not to.

From the point where Magnus sees the coming war, his actions are not illogical. He knows others are unlikely to believe him, he knows the method through which he gathered the information was a no-no, he knows that others could intercept a courrier or other messaging methods, but the threat was dire and imagining something worse was probably not possible and the alarm needed to be raised.

He does all of this when he simply could have headed back to his father with his entire legion.

Showing up with his entire legion to warn the emperor, who was not taking visitors, about his warp-delivered visions of his brothers betrayal would likely have gone down...at least as poorly. It just wouldn't have involved the Space Wolves and Prospero.

Even if he had managed to warn the emperor he would have had to gather to fight the traitors anyway which would have been him getting in his ships and headed back to dad anyway.

We have no idea what the logistics of that campaign would look like, gathering at Terra would not have been an automatic thing to do. That would depend on the how the various legions were already arrayed, logistics, current conquest warzones, etc.

Not sure why you think that him heading back would have gone just as bad.... If he had just gone back

1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E

Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods. Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it

Asmodios wrote:


1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E

This all assumes that the Big E would ever have been accessible, much less have gotten into the fight, and that Magnus and his legion would not have been treated as seditious traitors looking to smear the beloved Warmaster in delivering their warp-spawned visions of doom after showing up on Dads doorstep ready for war, or that Horus or others serving Chaos or just their own petty political desires wouldn't have found out and interceded. Most of these are all unprovable "what ifs" or based on hindsight, but given Magnus' status of being in the doghouse, the nature of how he acquired his information, Horus' high standing, and the inaccessible nature of the Emperor at that point, being treated as insurrectionists would have been far more likely.

Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods.

Nikea banned librariums and use of the warp in general, something all the Legions basically forgot about as quick as they could.

Its been a while, but IIRC magnus isnt fully aware of the nature of the chaos gods and daemons by this point either.

Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it

I'm not saying Magnus is totally blameless, but by the time he sees the revelation about Horus, his actions from that point on aren't irrational, he's doing what he believes to be the right thing to help his father, but good ol' dad is leaving *everyone* in the dark and Magnus is far from the only casualty of that.

Given that Magnus was also always intended to be plugged in to power the Imperial Webway, it's doubly silly the Emperor was doing everything possible to keep Magnus in the dark about it.

And, on the point about having to take orders, again, its not like the other Legions adhered to Nikea, they all thought they knew better, we see them all back to messing with the Warp again in short order.

Basically the Emperor told the kids to be good, left the gun safe open, the stove on, the keys in the car, a bag of coke on the counter, the liquor cabinet unlocked, the cigarettes on the table with the credit card, and then told all his kids he's going into the basement and he's not to be disturbed and has no idea when he'll be back, and then got mad when **** went down.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Asmodios wrote:


1. He wouldn't have up the emperors work meaning he wouldn't have forced him to sit on the throne meaning big E would have been in the fight and the heresy would have been over quickly
2. His whole legion wouldn't be lost and thus the loyalist have another entire legion
3. SW would have never been so damaged and so far away from big E

This all assumes that the Big E would ever have been accessible, much less have gotten into the fight, and that Magnus and his legion would not have been treated as seditious traitors looking to smear the beloved Warmaster in delivering their warp-spawned visions of doom after showing up on Dads doorstep ready for war, or that Horus or others serving Chaos or just their own petty political desires wouldn't have found out and interceded. Most of these are all unprovable "what ifs" or based on hindsight, but given Magnus' status of being in the doghouse, the nature of how he acquired his information, Horus' high standing, and the inaccessible nature of the Emperor at that point, being treated as insurrectionists would have been far more likely.

Also saying "other people did it too" isn't only a bad defense but legions like the SW weren't making pacts with the dark gods.

Nikea banned librariums and use of the warp in general, something all the Legions basically forgot about as quick as they could.

Its been a while, but IIRC magnus isnt fully aware of the nature of the chaos gods and daemons by this point either.

Every step along the way was just one bluder after another all because he couldnt except that his dad knew better then him and sometimes you have to take an order even if you dont like it

I'm not saying Magnus is totally blameless, but by the time he sees the revelation about Horus, his actions from that point on aren't irrational, he's doing what he believes to be the right thing to help his father, but good ol' dad is leaving *everyone* in the dark and Magnus is far from the only casualty of that.

Given that Magnus was also always intended to be plugged in to power the Imperial Webway, it's doubly silly the Emperor was doing everything possible to keep Magnus in the dark about it.

And, on the point about having to take orders, again, its not like the other Legions adhered to Nikea, they all thought they knew better, we see them all back to messing with the Warp again in short order.

Basically the Emperor told the kids to be good, left the gun safe open, the stove on, the keys in the car, a bag of coke on the counter, the liquor cabinet unlocked, the cigarettes on the table with the credit card, and then told all his kids he's going into the basement and he's not to be disturbed and has no idea when he'll be back, and then got mad when **** went down.

They're not really "what ifs" because we know that the emperor was stuck before and after the heresy on the GT because of what Magnus did. The Imperium wouldn't be in the state it was without Magnus screwing up like he did. Let's say your worst case vision happens.
>maguns goes to see big E
>Big E doesn't believe him and is locked up
>Horus then goes traitor
>magnus is proven right
so worst case scenario Magnus is locked up for a bit and the TS and SW are still at full strength for the heresy and big E isn't stuck on a thrown for eternity.

Asmodios wrote:

They're not really "what ifs" because we know that the emperor was stuck before and after the heresy on the GT because of what Magnus did. The Imperium wouldn't be in the state it was without Magnus screwing up like he did. Let's say your worst case vision happens.
>maguns goes to see big E
>Big E doesn't believe him and is locked up
>Horus then goes traitor
>magnus is proven right
so worst case scenario Magnus is locked up for a bit and the TS and SW are still at full strength for the heresy and big E isn't stuck on a thrown for eternity.

From an overall persective sure, though primarily I was coming at it from how Magnus and the Tsons would look at it weighing their options.

These other consequences would not have happened, true, but nobody could have foreseen them, thats all stuff known only in hindsight, except possibly to the Emperor, in which case he did a terrible job of preventing it.

Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ did not disobey any order from the Emperor. New orders come in and they have to be acted on straight away especially with the drawbacks of astrophathic orders, for instance, maybe Horus got new orders and Russ failed to get them due to warp storms or the astropaths not being able to decipher the message. Horus gave him new orders and his orders are just as valid when it comes to affairs of the great crusade. You are just flat out wrong.

The emperor gives you an order, and Horus gives you another order that directly contradicts the Emperor's. Which one do you follow? If you are a loyalist, the Emperor's. That is pretty cut and dried and I really don't see how that can be argued.

pm713 wrote:
He ran into a barrier and made a deal with an unknown entity to smash it. Hardly unintentional.

He could very easily have contacted him through other means. Or taken any action to avoid the Burning of Prospero. The whole thing is 90% his fault.

It is very explicitly stated that going to Terra himself would take too long (and would be to dangerous as he would be opening himself up for assassination attempts along the way), and that he didn't know who he could trust among the astropaths (some of whom may have been loyal to Horus), or that an astropathic message could have even been delivered to the emperor (who was in seclusion and seeing nobody, not even his custodes). The only way to 100% reliably contact the Emperor and get his message across was to do so through telepathy.

I'm not sure why people think "Lol he should have just flown to Terra" is an acceptable criticism when the books bend over backwards to close that loophole.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Expecting Magnus to have known all this is kind of as silly as expecting Russ to have known that Horus was manipulating him with changed orders and blaming him for not bringing Magnus back to stick in the GT so the Emperor could then go do his own thing, when nobody told him that was the plan.

I don't think it is 100% Russ fault that Horus tricked him. Merely pointing out that Horus was able to trick Russ by using Russ' prejudices and hatred of Magnus against him.

If I get two conflicting sets of orders, I am going to call home and clarify. Even if they both come from people I trust.

Russ saw an excuse to fight Magnus and took it.

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.

Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.

White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.

I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Lets also be real, it's not like anyone else stuck to Nikea. Almost all the chapter's today have their Librarians in defiance of the Council, the few exceptions largely do so out of prejudice and not a word about the Emperor's sacred decree at Nikea is ever raised, and the Wolves never felt it applied to them in the first place and kept right on mucking with the Warp the whole time with their Rune Priests that were identical to Librarians in basically all but name, and pretty much all the other Legions kept theirs around in some form as well.

Not from my reading - only a few legions allowed Librarians to practice Warpcraft - the rest allowed them to continue as marines but not to use their powers.

Loyalists
Space Wolves - cos our Rune Priests are "different and special" (Space Wolves 101 about anything and everything)
Thousand Sons - Cos we "know better" and our Primarch said its fine.

White Scars - The Khan was a bit unsure about this and anyway way out on the edge of nowhere where no-one would notice - mostly.

I can't recall but assuming the Traitor Legions did continue before they turned traitor.

and then you had Dorn who locked his Libby's up because Dorn was a dick