Persuasive argument - Can you defend the Space Wolves for the Prospero incident?

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**Scott-S6**

Orblivion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?

Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.

**w1zard**

Orblivion wrote:
It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?

I think so... I can think of no other reason for doing something like that.

It is pretty obvious that the emperor wanted rivalries among the legions. That way they all keep an eye on each other so that he doesn't have to, and it serves to make the eventual purges (ala thunder warriors) that much easier.

Scott-S6 wrote:
I'm also not sure what sort of censure you expected Russ to get at that point when Prospero was immediately followed by the full extent of the Heresy being revealed. Different priorities at that point.

So Russ gets a pass for atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH, whereas Curze and Perturabo don't get a pass for their atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH?

In my view, Russ got a pass for Prospero because the loyalists didn't want to alienate another legion and possibly turn them to Horus' side. Perturabo and Curze had already thrown in their lot with Horus so it was easy to call them out on it. Had Prospero happened at any other time, Russ and the Space Wolves would have had to do a Penance Crusade at the very least, if not be declared traitors outright. Putting your own vendettas and your own legion's rivalries in front of the good of the Imperium is generally looked down upon. Which is why the Dark Angels go to such lengths to cover it up whenever they do it.

Dorn was right to call out Russ on his hypocrisy. The Blood Angels and White Scars have always been pro-psykers, and they didn't want another repeat of Nikaea (which almost kicked off the HH early), so when Russ started saying "well my psykers are different" it was easier to just go along with him and say "yeah mine are too, not like those nasty thousand sons" than to start an argument with him and potentially cause another schism.

**hobojebus**

It's simple people Magnus was a ginger.

Gingers have no souls.

So russ was 100% in the right to break him into pieces.

**SHUPPET**

Scott-S6 wrote:
Orblivion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?

Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.

I don't think he did at all. I think he knew very well what he was doing.

**BrianDavion**

Orblivion wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
disagreeing with you is not "not arguing from a logical basis" He's simply looking at it from a differant view then you are. IMHO the Wolves did what they where trained to do and the Emperor knew damn well what would happen. If he had wanted a differant result he wouldn't have sent a buncha violent killers who had a known feud with the 1k sons, but would have instead sent, I dunno... the Ultramarines or something, (who you'll note The Emperor used when he censored Lorgar, presumably because he DIDN'T want an uncontrolled slaughter)

It is interesting to me though, that in both of those situations the Emperor chose the offending legion's rival as the enforcer. Was he just trying to humiliate them that much more by demonstrating their mistakes had placed their rivals in his favor?

Maybe but I don't think there was a rivalry in the case of the Word Bearers and Ultramarines until AFTER that incident, and afterwards it was a very one sided rivlary.

**Scott-S6**

w1zard wrote:

So Russ gets a pass for atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH, whereas Curze and Perturabo don't get a pass for their atrocities because they happened right at the opening of the HH?

Both of the incidents with Curze and Perturabo happened before the Heresy was revealed.

Prospero happened at almost the same time as Istvaan V.

Very different times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

SHUPPET wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:

Very probably. He sucked pretty hard at understanding people's emotional reactions to things he did.

I don't think he did at all. I think he knew very well what he was doing.

He knew that picking those particular legions would provoke a response. I'm not sure that actively driving them away from him was the response he wanted.

**Manchu**

From over eight years ago:

Manchu wrote:
Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.

The remaining question is why Magnus, if corrupted by the Warp before Horus's betrayal much less the destruction of Prospero, did not simply pledge himself to Chaos before those events. This is an area where we have to speculate. The only thing that is clear is that Magnus held his continued practice of sorcery in higher regard than the commands of his father. Obviously, this does not mean that he considered himself a traitor.

I would suggest that as Magnus delved deeper into sorcery after Nikaea he also sank deeper into denial. We know from the XV Legion's Index entry that Magnus had been in some sort of psychic contact with the Emperor through the Warp before the Emperor came to Prospero. There is also no reason to believe that Magnus had a strained relationship with the Emperor before Nikaea, although there is no reason to believe they had a particularly close relationship, either. (Although we do know that Russ, Mortarion, and Corax mistrusted him and his Legion.) In any case, Magnus eagerly joined the Crusade.

But after Nikaea, he found his loyalty tested and he chose disobedience. We do not know whether or how he struggled with his conscience over this decision except that he truly believed sorcery could be mastered and was no more inherently dangerous than technology. (There is a striking parallel here, however, between sorcery and artificial intelligence.) It seems to me that this was Magnus's rationalization of his betrayal: the Emperor erred to caution and must be educated. On the one hand, what staggering arrogance he showed in this attitude. On the other hand, he appears to have been a psyker of the same caliber as the Emperor or Eldrad Ulthran. In any case, Magnus seems to have justified his own treacherous curiosity by telling himself that his research would ultimately benefit mankind. Paradoxically, the more he betrayed the Emperor the more important his self-image of loyalty became to him.

In this way, the denial of Magnus was not simply passive. He did not merely absolve himself of the guilt of his betraying his oath but equated this betrayal with a higher form of loyalty. This was a master stroke of Chaos. For just as the Emperor became aware of the power of Magnus's mind through the Warp, Index Astartes tell us other forces became aware of him as well. It seems to me that those forces granted Magnus his vision of Horus's treachery in order to vindicate Magnus's false sense of loyalty, to make him believe that he had finally found proof that he was right to break his oath and continue his studies. As Index Astartes tells us, his sorcerous message of warning to Terra was to be his "moment of triumph." But these same powers, taking advantage of his willful blindness to his own treachery, obscured the role that he was himself to play. And Magnus, in his thralldom to the Warp through sorcery, did not guess that the very use of these powers allowed them to control him.

Instead of saving Terra, this message was a blow to the Emperor. Magnus's spell was designed to penetrate the hexagrammic wards of the Palace and ultimately allowed for the invasion of Terra itself by armies of daemons. Although the timeline is not entirely clear, we know that Magnus also tried to intervene with Horus personally within the Warp at the moment of his fall. (This most likely will be shown to have occurred before the disastrous message to Terra.) But this plan, as 1hadhq (perhaps unintentionally) shows in the quotations from False Gods that he included above, also catastrophically backfired. Lorgar's attempts to corrupt Horus were clumsy. Horus was not a man to be led into any action.

But Magnus's intervention helped push Horus over the brink. Erebus failed to convince Horus in all aspects but one: he pointed out that Magnus was also treacherous. How hollow must Magnus's warning that Horus should trust the Emperor to know what is right have sounded to Horus, knowing that Magnus himself did not trust the Emperor in this way and had clearly violated their father's decrees at Nikaea? Suddenly terrified at the prospect of Horus's fall, Magnus was no doubt completely sincere in his attempt to prevent it. But by his own disloyalty he had forfeit any credibility with Horus. Magnus learned in anguish that betrayal and fidelity cannot coexist in a man. Perhaps this explains the urgency of Magnus's warning to Terra. Faced with impotence to save his brother, Magnus was also finally confronted with the reality of his own corruption. The use of sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's fall in fact (no longer a mere vision of the future) was Magnus's last chance to prove not only that sorcery could be used to the benefit of man but to also prove that his own "higher loyalty" should overcome his particular disobedience.

There also remains the question of Russ. Was Russ sent to destroy Prospero or to merely chain Magnus? Despite claims to the contrary, I have already mentioned in this thread that both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons entries of the Index Astartes say that the truth of Prospero is clouded by perspective. (As I have also already mentioned, Abnett has said that this sense of mystery will not be resolved by A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.) Existing canon suggests that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and trusted Russ with the mission to Prospero for the very reason that Russ had always been suspicious of Magnus. I've also pointed out many times that Abnett claims the Space Wolves were bred for the purpose of taking out another Legion.

As 1hadhq shows above, however, Horus claims to Fulgrim that the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra. Is Horus trustworthy on this point? Maybe so. It would seem to make sense that the Emperor would rather deal with Magnus in person rather than (seemingly) hastily kill him. Also, Horus would have no reason to lie to Fulgrim--at least not this lie. Fulgrim's betrayal was always premised more on love for Horus than hate for their father. Finally, we know that a fleet of Black Ships accompanied Russ to Prospero "with orders to carry back to Terra any pskyers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with," along with Custodes ("a sure sign that the Primarch's mission had the full authority of the Emperor," Visions p.98) and Sisters of Silence (cover of Prospero Burns). (I think we can safely say that the Emperor expected Magnus to resist.)

But maybe we are misinterpreting what Horus is saying here. We tend to assume that Magnus was going to be brought back to Terra for some kind of trial but when we look at the evidence, that does not seem likely. Index Astartes says sorcery was made an unforgivable offense against humanity at Nikaea. It also related that the Emperor said to him: "If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time." (Visions p94) Again, the verdict at Nikaea was that "Magnus was to cease all sorcery and psychics on pain of death." (Visions p.97) In light of this, it becomes apparent that there would be no other reason to bring Magnus to Terra other than to be executed by the Emperor himself.

So in what way did Horus actually trick Russ? Did Horus subvert the Emperor's purpose? Considering that the Emperor's purpose was most likely to kill Magnus and destroy his Legion, no. Horus simply convinced Russ, by expanding upon the true depths of Magnus's use of sorcery, that Magnus's warning was completely false--which, according to Index Astartes, both Russ and the Emperor already believed anyway. He also advised Russ that Magnus, being a traitor, would most certainly resist so that he should not even give the Cyclops a chance to surrender. Instead, Russ should bombard the planet and then invade. Which eminently sensible military stratgey Russ did indeed pursue.

This is not the same thing as convincing Russ to kill Magnus outright, as Horus grandly claims. The Emperor and Russ were already convinced that (1) Magnus was a traitor, (2) Magnus would resist imprisonment, and (3) Magnus deserved death. Commencing a surprise attack on Prospero was not in violation of his orders to bring Magnus back to Terra. Indeed, Russ never did kill Magnus but simply completely disabled him by breaking his back (if the legends are true), which is likely the only way you could capture a Primarch who refused to surrender. So how exactly did Horus trick Russ? I think Horus's statement to Maloghurst quoted above turns out to be an example of Horus's very high opinion of himself and his schemes. If anything, Horus got lucky on this account. The Wolves were on Terra at this point. The Emperor sending Russ to Prospero (along with some Sisters of Silence and Custodes) would significantly weaken Terra's defenses. Horus does not seem to have done anything to actually distract Russ or make his campaign against Magnus run any longer than it actually would. So again, Horus seems to be implying that this is all a part of his plan when in reality the Warp Gods and Magnus's arrogance are actually at work.

And why did Magnus never attempt to surrender to Russ? Actually, I would bet he did try this and that we will see this in the upcoming books. That, in my opinion, is one of the mysteries of conflicting perspective that we will see tragically play out. Did Magnus finally completely realize his fall and repent? Or did he begin to do so and then, in anger and frustration, insist on the justice of his research into sorcery? Did the Curse of the Wulfen prevent Russ and his Legion from seeing reason and accepting a proposed surrender? We may find out more in the upcoming novels. Existing accounts testify to the intense fury of the Space Wolves. In the "Lament of Prospero" as "quoted" in Index Astartes, Space Wolves are described as losing their minds but fighting on anyway out of sheer bloodlust. ("Lament of Prospero" seems to be an account from the Space Wolves' point of view. It also claims Magnus made his bargain with Chaos before the personal combat with Russ.) The other mystery is how a world of precognitive sorcerers could not foresee the arrival and attack of Russ. Perhaps the Black Ships and Sisters of Silence played some role in this? Perhaps the Gods of Chaos blinded the Thousand Sons so that they would be at the brink of destruction and so finally give themselves to the Warp not as masters of sorcery but as slaves.

**SHUPPET**

Manchu wrote:
Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.

It's difficult not to ignore them when you don't know what they are, and the person who claims they exist didn't share them.

**Manchu**

The quote is supplied with a link to the thread in which the sources were discussed at length. To wit:

None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp.

Visions of Heresy p. 97

**SHUPPET**

That doesn't end discussion on the matter though, a writer stating that their actions were "suggestive" of "probably" cause, is not definitive of anything, and doesn't end the debate at all.

**Manchu**

I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the latest possible date of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.

But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.

**w1zard**

Scott-S6 wrote:

Both of the incidents with Curze and Perturabo happened before the Heresy was revealed.

Prospero happened at almost the same time as Istvaan V.

Very different times.

This is incorrect.

Istvaan V happened a year after the Battle of Prospero, and the Cruze and Perturabo incidents only happened 6 months to max a year before Prospero.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline

**Scott-S6**

w1zard wrote:

This is incorrect.

Istvaan V happened a year after the Battle of Prospero, and the Cruze and Perturabo incidents only happened 6 months to max a year before Prospero.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline

Your link actually makes my point quite well (albeit that I should have said Istvaan III)

Nostramo's destruction is 984.M30
Olympia is 004.M31
Prospero is 734004.M31
Istvaan III is 005.M31

Note that Nostramo is twenty years before Prospero - it apparently took ages for news to reach terra and any kind of decision.

Anything that might have happen over Russ and Prospero is going to be forgotten once Horus is in open rebellion.

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
I don't think you correctly apprehend the statement, which speaks to the earliest possible moment of Magnus's corruption - and emphatically NOT as to whether there is any question of his corruption. In short, far from that penultimate moment amid the fires of Tizca, we should look farther back to the period before Nikaea. And that's only sensible, considering why the Council was held to begin with, and further considering the extreme pronouncement of the Emperor at its conclusion.

But by all means, you would not be the first to ignore facts that don't suit you.

Unknowingly "corrupted" by serving chaos and not even realizing it? Oh yes absolutely.

But Magnus was never a willing agent of chaos until he decided to step outside of his pyramid at the Battle of Prospero and make his final deal with Tzeentch to save his legion and what was left of his people. I don't see how you could read Master of Prospero and even think that Magnus served chaos willingly before that point.

Scott-S6 wrote:
w1zard wrote:

This is incorrect.

Istvaan V happened a year after the Battle of Prospero, and the Cruze and Perturabo incidents only happened 6 months to max a year before Prospero.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Horus_Heresy_Timeline

Your link actually makes my point quite well (albeit that I should have said Istvaan III)

Nostramo's destruction is 984.M30
Olympia is 004.M31
Prospero is 734004.M31
Istvaan III is 005.M31

Note that Nostramo is twenty years before Prospero - it apparently took ages for news to reach terra and any kind of decision.

Anything that might have happen over Russ and Prospero is going to be forgotten once Horus is in open rebellion.

Apologies, I must have misread the year of Nostromo's destruction to be the same as Olympia's.

Still, I wass correct about Olympia, and the fact that Olympia happened only 6 months to a year before Prospero and the very differing reactions to those two incidents speaks volumes. Especially since the HH didn't start in full until a year later.

**Manchu**

@w1zard

As I have had occasion to say many times before, the Ruinous Powers do not require one's consent.

Manchu wrote:
It's easy to want him to be innocent and if you insist Magnus's shallowest rationalizations as his true intentions, perhaps you could view him as innocent. Do not forget, however, that innocence proves nothing. And the idea that Magnus is innocent (up until his pact with Tzeentch) is absurd. The "reality" (if you will) of the 40k universe is that Chaos does not require the consent of its servants. In the end, Chaos has no willing servants--only slaves.

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
@w1zard

As I have had occasion to say many times before, the Ruinous Powers do not require one's consent.

Sure, but that isn't what I was arguing.

If you want to claim that Magnus was an unknowing pawn of chaos long before Nikaea even, I'm not going to debate that because it is true.

We were talking about what the Wolves did on Prospero.

**Manchu**

First, the guilt of Magnus and his Legion is the most important factor in justifying the Space Wolves' actions at Propsero. Second, I speak directly to their actions above. Shuppet seemed only read the first few dozen words quoted above, but several thousand follow.

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
First, the guilt of Magnus and his Legion is the most important factor in justifying the Space Wolves' actions at Propsero. Second, I speak directly to their actions above. Shuppet seemed only read the first few dozen words quoted above, but several thousand follow.

So you are saying that Russ disobeying orders and attempting to kill his brother, his entire legion, and everything else on the planet, innocent or not is justified because Magnus was an unwitting pawn to a power that neither knew existed at that point?

Killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not.

Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.

**Manchu**

Pray tell, how did Russ disobey orders?

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
Pray tell, how did Russ disobey orders?

Russ was ordered by the Emperor to go to Prospero and arrest Magnus and disarm the 1K sons, he was supposed to bring Magnus back to Terra for trial. Instead he went there and killed every living thing on the planet, including innocent civilians, and attempted to kill both Magnus and his legion.

**Manchu**

Is there some reason you are leaving out the crucial point that Horus "updated" the Imperial orders?

Russ was present at Nikaea when the Emperor threatened to destroy Magnus if Magnus disobeyed the law of the Council, which he did. Magnus was an outright traitor who had been warned by the Emperor personally about not violating the ban on pain of death. Russ also witnessed the Emperor's rage when Magnus's perfidy broke the hexagrammatic wards at the Palace. Finally, Russ had no reason whatsoever to doubt Horus's loyalty or to question Horus's action on behalf of the Emperor, since the Emperor had all but appointed Horus regent before locking himself away on Terra. There is simply no case against Russ, especially since we know he tried to offer Magnus a way out before the attack and he regretted what happened after he learned of Horus's perfidy afterwards.

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
Is there some reason you are leaving out the crucial point that Horus "updated" the Imperial orders?

From an earlier post:
Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.

Manchu wrote:
Russ was present at Nikaea when the Emperor threatened to destroy Magnus if Magnus disobeyed the law of the Council, which he did. Magnus was an outright traitor who had been warned by the Emperor personally about not violating the ban on pain of death. Russ also witnessed the Emperor's rage when Magnus's perfidy broke the hexagrammatic wards at the Palace.

But it was not Russ' place to decide that he was judge, jury, and executioner. Especially when the Emperor told Russ to arrest Magnus, not kill him.

Manchu wrote:
There is simply no case against Russ, especially since we know he tried to offer Magnus a way out before the attack...

A feeble attempt at a surrender demand that never reached Magnus.

Manchu wrote:
...and he regretted what happened after he learned of Horus's perfidy afterwards.

‘You think me a fool, brother?’ said Russ, with dangerous innocence.
‘I think you are reckless. I think you are in danger of treading the same road as Magnus, or Lorgar, cavorting with priests. Where has your conviction gone? Where is the wolf who spoke at Nikaea?’
This stung Russ, and his smile dropped. ‘Nikaea was another trick. Another manipulation. Why do you think our enemies duped us into abandoning the Librarius? Why do you think I was tricked into killing Magnus?’
‘You express regret for that now?’ said Dorn. ‘Last I heard you were crowing about it.‘
I have crowed. I do crow. I am proud of what I did. When attacked, Magnus resorted to powers he should never have unleashed, and he deserved what he got for that alone. But things could have been different. Horus lied to me because they fear the power of the warp. He feared Magnus’ sorcery. It is what the enemy are. It is what will beat them.

Russ didn't regret what he did to Magnus.

**Manchu**

Your position is inconsistent. You want Russ to follow orders sometimes but you want him to disobey orders at other times and this whole tangent started with you criticizing Russ for disobeying orders (which actually never even happened).

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
Your position is inconsistent. You want Russ to follow orders sometimes but you want him to disobey orders at other times and this whole tangent started with you criticizing Russ for disobeying orders (which actually never even happened).

No, I want Russ to follow orders given to him by the Emperor. The fact that Russ was 'tricked' by Horus into serving chaos is as irrelevant as the fact that Magnus was tricked into serving chaos by Tzeentch. Magnus put himself into that whole situation to begin with and it is largely his fault. But it doesn't change the fact that the Battle of Prospero was wrong, on multiple levels, and the Wolves were hailed as heroes because of it, despite other legions doing similar things and being condemned for it. Much like the 1k Sons breaking the edict at Nikaea and being condemned for it despite the other legions (including the wolves) breaking the edict as well and getting away scott-free.

Like I said, killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not.

The entire situation is much more nuanced than simply "Thousand Sons bad guys, wolves good guys." Both of the legions (and Primarchs) were "bad guys" and Magnus was unlucky enough to fall on the traitor side of the equation, while Russ was lucky enough to fall on the "loyalist" side despite doing things that very well could have gotten him called a traitor in less dire circumstances.

**godking**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Magnus destroyed the Imperiums future by... wanting to warn the Emperor about Horus, who basically massacred the Imperiums future.

Generally, given how Magnus really did care for the Emperor, if he had mentioned even a teeny bit of what he was doing Magnus probably would've tried other methods, given his whole reason for trying to contact Emperor was "Okay, I can show dad Psykers have a good use afterall!"

Magnus destroyed the golden throne and ensured humanities inevitable fall to Chaos.

I don't give a feth how sorry he was afterwards that is a mistake that you don't come back from.

Russ exceeded his orders but bring in Magnus was the right thing to do.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Plus no one complains about Russ not questioning the order to sanction Angron. In that case, he was never ordered to kill Angron (not that he could lol), so he didn't try to kill him, but both legions still went to war. In the case of Magnus he was ordered to kill him. Its what he was made to do, he did it once before and rumours say he did it to both the lost legions. Its a bit like Dorn getting told to bolster the Imperial palace, saying 'he should have question doing that, as it was an order that had never before been contemplated should that mean that it was completely alien to him.'

Russ was never ordered to sanction Angron.

He contronted Angron because HE felt he should not because he was given orders from the Emperor

Angron even gloats about that.

**Manchu**

There was no Imperial edict against what the Wolves did on Propsero. To the contrary, the Emepror bred them for it. And there are hints he had unleashed them twice before. By contrast, Magnus broke the law of the Emperor's own council, a law spoken by the Emperor's own lips followed by a sanction of death explicitly addressed by the Emperor personally to Magnus. Magnus was too arrogant and ignorant to know he was already a slave to darkness but he did know in no uncertain terms that he was committing a capital offense. Once more by contrast Russ acted according to his purpose and with all good faith pursuant to orders that he had no reason to doubt were issued by the Emperor.

**w1zard**

Manchu wrote:
Once more by contrast Russ acted according to his purpose and with all good faith pursuant to orders that he had no reason to doubt were issued by the Emperor.

Lest you forget, Russ also broke the edict at Nikaea (in a less spectacular manner I admit, but still did so).

I also find it interesting you consider Magnus being an unwitting pawn to chaos irrelevant, but at the same time Russ being an unwitting pawn to chaos somehow excuses his responsibility?

Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. Only that Russ was given orders to ARREST Magnus by the Emperor. On his way to do so, he spoke to Horus, and then continued on his way intent on killing his brother instead of arresting him, despite the protestations of Valdor who said that it wasn't what the emperor ordered. Russ puts his foot down, and Valdor goes along with him, seeming to say "well I don't like Magnus much either, so if we are going to kill him let's do it right."

**alextroy**

Magnus was not tricked into serving Chaos. To end the Flesh Curse, he foolishly thought he could outsmart the denizens of the warp when making a deal with them. Something the Emperor told him not to do. It was the same arrogance and lust for knowledge and power that lead up to Prospero, one mistake after another.

As for Russ not following his orders and nearly killing Magnus, just didn't happen that way. Russ's orders were to deal with the Thousand Sons and bring Magnus back to the Emperor. And if Magnus had surrendered upon his arrival and come along meekly, that is what would have happened.

Would the Wolves have still burned Prospero? Probably. Between the Editic of Nikea and the Emperor's Proclamation to Russ, it wasn't a simple mission of bringing back one man to stand trail. It was a censure action and we all know that innocence is no defense for heresy in the 30th or 40th Millennium.

Finally, when Magnus took to the field of battle, he came in with the full force of his Sorcery, his crime, for all to see. At that point, it was a matter of survival that he be put down.

**w1zard**

This entire argument is becoming circular, so I am just going to sum up my views and leave the argument here.

Magnus put himself into that whole situation to begin with and it is largely his fault. But it doesn't change the fact that the Battle of Prospero was wrong, on multiple levels, and the Wolves were hailed as heroes because of it, despite other legions doing similar things and being condemned for it. The entire situation is much more nuanced than simply "Thousand Sons bad guys, Wolves good guys." Both of the legions (and Primarchs) were "bad guys" and Magnus was unlucky enough to fall on the traitor side of the equation, while Russ was lucky enough to fall on the "loyalist" side despite doing things that very well could have gotten him called a traitor in less dire circumstances.

Also, I don't buy the argument that Russ was "just following orders" from Horus and shouldn't be held accountable. The Space Marine Chapters that fought against the Imperium at the behest of the Astral Claws during the Badab War were "just following orders" and were heavily censured for it regardless. We don't know exactly what Horus said to Russ to get Russ to attack Prospero instead of arrest Magnus, but I cannot help but think Russ' massive hatred of Magnus played a huge role in Horus being able to convince Russ so easily.

Killing a man in prison for murder is still murder itself, regardless of whether he deserves it or not. It was not Russ' place to act as judge, jury, and executioner when he was explicitly ordered by the Emperor to arrest Magnus, not kill him.

This is not about what Magnus deserved, this is about Russ overstepping his bounds and pushing a loyalist legion into the arms of chaos to fulfill a vendetta.

If you disagree with my assessment of this that is totally fine, but don't pretend that my opinion of a very subjective situation is any less valid than yours.

**Manchu**

Many millions, perhaps trillions, of souls have been the unwitting pawns of Chaos - but at Nikaea, the Emperor looked directly at Magnus, and, speaking his name, personally swore to destroy him if he broke faith with the Emperor's edict. This was because the Council was called specifically to deal with Magnus and his Legion. The Cyclops and his Thousand Sons understood this completely; hence their wounded pride. Hence Magnus's inability to even open his mouth much less, as a loyal son and subject must needs do, surrender himself to his brother when Russ duly arrived to make good on the Emperor's oath. The issue with Magnus is not that Powers greater than him used him without his knowledge but that his own disloyalty, his own arrogance, his own blindness led not just to a mistake but to a moral collapse - a fall, a betrayal. It is no coincidence or mistake that Magnus now sits upon the throne of a Daemon World, reigning as a Daemon Prince.