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Index Astartes where they are talking about the Thousand Sons if I remember correctly.

EDIT

and anyway Chaos "needs" your consent to make you fall. You are a Chaos follower when you embrace it. Sure, they can taint you but you're not chaothic until you openly embrace one of the cults or everyone.

I think the key transition point from 'tricked and tainted by chaos' to 'fallen to chaos' is when you start worshipping them, yes. Before that point, many tainted will protest and say they aren't, or be utterly distraught if it is shown to them that they have aided the ruinous powers. Convince them of their actions and make them see that they have been used and they'll return to the light or accept death (even if reluctantly). However difficult, however tormented, however reluctant and under duress, it is swearing yourself to chaos at least in your own mind that tips you over the edge.

I do side with the 'Magnus was loyal until that day' theory. His studies may have made him more susceptible and both he and Russ were played horribly, but I think he held his father in high enough esteem that he would not have fallen. To quote a movie, Magnus had his 'it just takes one bad day' moment. It may have been an over reaction and he may never have looked back once he swore himself and let chaos properly sink its claws in (as opposed to nibbling around the edges) but until Russ set foot on Prospero I don't think he'd seriously considered it.

Actually, that is not the case. Chaos can use unwilling vessels. Sometimes merely having latent psychic abilities is enough (hence one part of the necessity of the Black Ships), much less actively dabbling in sorcery. Magnus swore to obey the Edicts of of Nikaea to the Emperor's face--and yet he did not. I hear constant claims that Magnus did not disobey the Emperor's command until he sent his dire warning of Horus's treachery. This is patently false. Have you not asked yourself how Magnus knew of Horus's treachery in the first place? Perhaps a closer reading of Index Astartes is in order:

The Primarch [Magnus] had never accepted the Emperor's belief in the peril of sorcery, and had broken his oath to turn from the pursuit of such knowledge. In his precognitive vision of the coming war, and the warning it provided, Magnus was certain he had found proof of the value of his studies. (Index Astartes III, p.65)

As you can see, Magnus in his pride and arrogance had fallen long before he made any conscious bargain with Tzeetch to save his life from Russ. His great warning to Terra was to be his moment of triumph but it was just one further step along the path to daemonhood.


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@Morgrim: If Magnus held his father in such high esteem, why pretend to know better than him? Why break an oath he made in the presence of the Emperor, face to face with his worthy father? If Magnus was truly loyal, why deceive the Emperor about his continued studies of sorcery? Magnus put his pursuit of witchcraft above loyalty. Sorcery was for him a higher priority than anything, including the Emperor.

well that paragraph might be interpreted also that his studies on sorcery were right, since he got a precognitive vision of the coming war between Horus and the Emperor. It should note also on the book that he broke the oath by reuniting some other psykers and send the message. I might be wrong though... I don't read that part of the IA from a bit.

He held the Emperor in high esteem and as a son that wants to proof his value and love, he tried to save the Emperor from Horus sending the message, breaking the oath. If we check a bit better, we just see that the Emperor was stupid, he pretended that Horus was the most loyal of the primarchs and hence... Magnus was trying to put in bad light his brother to continue his studies. I've read somewhere that there are differente versions and interpretations about the Prospero Mission... some say that the Emperor was so enraged that wanted Prospero burned. Others that Russ was fouled by Horus and instead of taking him back to Earth for interrogation, he was convinced to kill everyone.

Just wait untill A Thousand Sons comes out in march, then we will know for sure.

KOS, you're missing the point. Magnus broke the oath before sending the message.

Index Astartes (neither volume two or three) mentions Horus tricking Russ but both say the history of the burning of Prospero is conflicting. The Thousand Sons entry says that Russ was present on Terra with the Emperor when Magnus attempted to send the message.


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@whatwhat: Abnett has said that he and McNeill write the books from different perspectives so that the ambiguity remains. We will never know exactly what happened at Prospero. What is clear is that Magnus was enraptured by Chaos before Russ attacked.

whatwhat wrote:Just wait untill A Thousand Sons comes out in march, then we will know for sure.

but can that be considered true canon ? Black Library is not Games Workshop and many things on the books do not work with the background of the 40k nor the equipment.

But anyway... I'm searching a way to get here in Italy the books of the Horus Heresy and start reading


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Manchu wrote:KOS, you're missing the point. Magnus broke the oath before sending the message.

Index Astartes (neither volume two or three) mentions Horus tricking Russ but both say the history of the burning of Prospero is conflicting. The Thousand Sons entry says that Russ was present on Terra with the Emperor when Magnus attempted to send the message.


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@whatwhat: Abnett has said that he and McNeill write the book from different perspectives so that the ambiguity remains. We will never know exactly what happened at Prospero. What is clear is that Magnus was enraptured by Chaos before Russ attacked.

so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

Black Library is a branch of GW. Yes, there have been many discrepancies between the game rules and the novels. The HH series, however, is canonical.


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KOS wrote:so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

I just gave you the direct quotation from Index Astartes III.

Manchu wrote:Black Library is a branch of GW. Yes, there have been many discrepancies between the game rules and the novels. The HH series, however, is canonical.


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KOS wrote:so where the hell did I get that information from ? I thought I read that from IA.

I just gave you the direct quotation from Index Astartes III.

thanks for info, will definitly buy all the HH novels then.

I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

Still dabbling in sorcery against his oath? Possibly, although two other primaches had prophetic dreams about the Heresy and neither of them were dabbling beforehand, even if one did fall. Disobeying in certain amounts doesn't mean you hate your father. I can definitely see a 'well, he uses awesome psychic powers all the time, and these are just an offshoot of that. He's worried that they might be dangerous. I'll find proof that they aren't, even if I can't use them properly, then when I present it he might decide that they are okay when strictly controlled and used in moderation'.

Note, I've yet to see the distinction between sorcery and psychic powers; if they're the same thing, the Emperor is being a massive hypocrite and favouring Sanguinius since he was apparently given free reign to use his, ignoring the fact that the Emperor is the most powerful psyker the Imperial has ever seen.

Other primachs also disobeyed at times. Alpharius was criticised for taking too long planning and using 'dishonourable' forms of battle. Instead of changing his methods and fighting like he was supposed to, he turned around and did his tricks in a more complete way than before, following an excessively complex plan at the next battle to prove that he could pull it off and that it was highly effective when such as act worked.

Morgrim wrote:I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

It will be possible to add new fluff when "a thousand sons" is available.
Till then, it stands that Magnus and his legion were researchers.

So human curiosity was strong in this legion.
Doesn't mean they were careless.

Magnus tried to save Horus.
Magnus tried to warn the Emperor.
His sons did fight well against demons and IIRC part of this ability was they know the danger.

Would agree that most primarchs did as they please and followed their own path.
Some stumbled upon their flaws, some did not. But still Magnus is the one that may be cheated from his position on his fathers side
and I can't see any primarch except Dorn accepting his own execution.

Here's an interesting wee aside Ive been mulling over whilst reading this wonderful thread.

There does semm to be an great karma in the 40K Universe. Whether accidental or perpetrated by some God or Gods, it seems to strike at certain times.

One such time nivolves the good old Fists themselves - As Manchu correctly states, Dorn covertly went against the Codex Astartes by implementing the Black Templars. They have the feel and strength of a pre-heresy legion, and as such could realistically pose a threat to the Imperium (similiarly with the Space Wolves, but everyone's favourite furries are less likely to turn despite their obvious deviencies)

However, Karma dictates that a balance is required, so as the Black Templars grows in strength, Dorn's sons are punished with the decimataion of the Crimson Fists and Rynn's World, and the betrayal of the Soul Drinkers. So in actuality, a great number of former Fists have been decimated as the Black Templars grow in strength.

Not really an on-topic per'se, just somethnig interesting I thought

@Morgrim: I think you do a good job of showing the same kind of rationalization that Magnus must have went through as he fell to Chaos.

(1) You haven't seen proof of this? I think it's actually the case that you just don't want to see proof of this. The proof is that he swore an oath directly to the Emperor to cease his sorcery, trotted off to Prospero, and continued to master and use sorcery along with the rest of his Legion. He then sent a message through the warp to Terra (that tore a breach in the webway and allowed daemons to invade the Palace, by the way) just to prove to daddy that "see, I told you I was right." It doesn't matter that it wasn't his intention--he had a fair warning from his master and father to stop. He ignored it because he was already too deeply fascinated by the warp, i.e., had fallen to Chaos all but explicitly. Talk about backfiring and being used by Chaos. Such is the price that Chaos exacts of pride. By the time his back was broken over Russ's knee, the Cyclops was ripe as a rotten apple for swearing allegiance to Chaos.

(2) Haven't seen a distinction between psyker and sorcerers? You mean you don't know about the Council of Nikaea that we've been talking about--where it was ruled that psykers could be used (a.k.a., LIBRARIANS) but that sorcerery would be banned forever more as "unforgivable heresy against Mankind".

(3) Finally, Alpharius may have been criticized by his fellow Primarchs (just as Mortarion and Russ criticized Magnus) but he was never directly ordered by the Emperor to change his tactics.

@1hadhq: Why so quick to defend a traitor in this case? And yet willing to take any swipe at the Wolves? I smell Chaos . . .

@Sean: Interesting points. I think you may be the only person in this thread to directly acknowledge the canonical existence of the Soul Drinkers. We've been tiptoeing around them for ages. I don't know much about them, having not read Ben Counter's trilogy. I'm not sure that karma is Grimdark enough--there might be a hint of justice in there, after all.

Oh, and Sean, I guess you can see now why I think it's utterly impossible for Magnus to be redeemed.

Manchu wrote:
Haven't seen a distinction between psyker and sorcerers? You mean you don't know about the Council of Nikaea that we've been talking about--where it was ruled that psykers could be used (a.k.a., LIBRARIANS) but that sorcerery would be banned forever more as "unforgivable heresy against Mankind".

Sorcerery? New type of psi?
Look at the increasing amount of Psi in the Power-armored codices..
Is nothing of these "spells" a type of sorcery?

May I add the TS repelling demons again?
Seems every legio/chapter got its own Psi. Fire based for sallies, lighting based for woofies and blood based for the red marines.

Manchu wrote:
@1hadhq: Why so quick to defend a traitor in this case? And yet willing to take any swipe at the Wolves? I smell Chaos . . .

Quick?
I kept out to watch the Delf in space....

So sister manchu smells chaos, why can't brother SW manchu not smell chaos ? Acute senses lost ?
Or rather the return of accusations of treachery to evade answers.

Maybe even our wolfsister can see that Magnus is in general accepted as the one who fell but had not done so because of the
so called "power" of chaos but of the lack of trust and superstition of his "brother".

I am not defending Magnus from beeing an idiot to give in to a warp creature.
But I did not see any proof of him turning traitor before Russ assailed Prospero.
Remember that Horus didn't count on him as part of his plans but was surprised when Magnus "joined".

Just for the record.
Swipe at SW? How so?
Should I refrain from critizing a specific Primarch? Why? IMO all of them are viable subjects for critics.

PS: I am still waiting to be enlightened about the awesomeness the grey marine player claims for his liege.

I see a lot opinions and no support. It's much easier to demand evidence than to present it.

Manchu wrote:I see a lot opinions and no support. It's much easier to demand evidence than to present it.

Am referring to:

Morgrim wrote:I'm yet to see any hard evidence for the 'Magnus was enraptured by chaos' argument.

Morgrim wrote:Note, I've yet to see the distinction between sorcery and psychic powers

1hadhq wrote:It will be possible to add new fluff when "a thousand sons" is available. Till then, it stands that Magnus and his legion were researchers. So human curiosity was strong in this legion. Doesn't mean they were careless.

1hadhq wrote:Maybe even our wolfsister can see that Magnus is in general accepted as the one who fell but had not done so because of the so called "power" of chaos but of the lack of trust and superstition of his "brother".

etc.

Did assume you know the fluff and would not need me to restate the well known.

How many times must I say I'll wait with any definite statement about the TS until the new fluff is available?
Sorry, opinion and what we have yet is all you get , NOW.

But TS = research is part of IA. And the general consensus of pre-heresy TS shouldn't be too different on the other side of the pond.
So the first quote is easy to find in the IA ( you've cited it before so don't tell me you've not seen this. ) and the second quote
is an opinion ( evidence of an opinion? how? ).

TS = heretics is part of IA. Why do you fail to acknowledge that?

Manchu wrote:TS = heretics is part of IA. Why do you fail to acknowledge that?

Changed your point to heretics?
Hmm. Did say they were not traitors.
The heretic may be saved, the traitor will eternally suffer.

So Magnus and his legio didn't follow the Emperors orders to the word.
But they didn't side with Horus. ( before the accident ).

Seems big E wasn't the first father to have his sons ignoring some of his teachings...

Again,please read the comments on the BL site about the coming HH books ( a thousand sons/prospero burns ).
"loyalist vs loyalist" is all I say...

Traitors, heretics--in this context they are the same.

Magnus didn't follow the Emperor's orders "to the word"? He utterly broke his oath. He lied. His lies put him on Horus's side without either of them even knowing it (my whole point about how Chaos works in the first place) resulting in an internal invasion of the Palace that kept the Emperor preoccupied and resulted in the death of Malcador the Sigilite.

I have looked at BL's website many times. If you'll recall, I was the one who linked to the video about the books in the first place.

And you still try to ignore the " loyal vs loyal" bit there.....

Your chaos argument is just weak. If it would be that easy, chaos would have conquered the galaxy long time ago.
But these pitiful warp creatures needed to subjugate Primarchs of the imperium to wield any sort of power.

Do you think I'm saying the Thousand Sons thought they were disloyal? Of course they thought they were right. That is how Tzeentch laid them low.

You say my argument is weak and yet you have no counterargument whatsoever. As usual.

I don't need a "counterargument" against the lies of chaos. Its obvious that chaos isn't a reliable source.

You can throw as much accusations you like on the TS.
I am not planning to defend their "honor".
But, I will also not let your false claims of the disloyality of the TS stay there uncommented.
It doesn't matter what chaos believes.
The POV of any faction is always biased and you especially did nothing to find pro AND contra arguments.
Instead we got a lot of claims of marines beeing traitors and heretics.
But still the IA doesn't say the TS were "heretics" or "traitors" at the time were discussin here.
It does support they were disobiedient. And joined chaos when russ tried to kill them.
So were going in circles since our spacewolfsister cannot accept the imperfection of russ and also cannot wait to have the event fleshed out in some new books.
I do understand youre unhappy with the SW part beeing hold back for half a year.

Your problem is with the fluff. You can't find evidence for your opinions so you call them "the lies of Chaos."

Tell me what your criticism of Russ is? It seems to me that your only problem with him is that he outshines Dorn in every way.

I hold to my previous point that I don't know the difference between psychic powers and sorcery, and so can't comment on that angle or how susceptible it makes one to chaos. If someone can link me to some source that clearly defines the difference then I'l be able to contribute more on that topic.

Note, I didn't say that Magnus was in the right. When he sent that message he broke his oath. I'm just not entirely sure he broke it beforehand. Again, when the book comes out we'll either have more clues or an explicite answer.

I do think that at the time these events occurred, Magnus was not serving chaos. Even accidentally. Skating close to the line, possible, manipulated by it in the later stages definitely (but arguably no more than Russ was) but at the time the order was given not serving. He screwed up big time. That does not make one a heretic, it makes one an idiot. The Emperor wanted him dragged back to Terra to explain himself and probably receive some form of punishment, but if the Emperor thought he had fallen then the order would actually have been to kill him, so the Emperor didn't consider the breaching of such an oath to be an act of no redemption and no return. (Has there actually been a fluff case of the Emperor being furious at one of his sons? I'm curious how he'd have reacted. And how the primachs would have reacted.) The argument at this point seems to be that Magnus had fallen before the invasion of Prospero.

Now, I do have to wonder how Magnus knew of the Heresy. The fact he knew of it at all is telling; if he'd seen it in a vision, I would have thought that he'd have at least looked into it a bit first, sent a message back to Terra by more conventional means. Using his powers and breaking his oath in a blantent 'cannot deny I've done this' fashion suggests urgency. A situation where he did not have the time or ability to get a message through any other way. I can see two possible cases for this. One, he's found out just before the Istavaan massacre; about to loose several legions probably counts as an emergency. Two, he's actually been approached by the traitors and can't risk them intercepting or discovering he's sent a message. I'd have to dig deeper into the fluff to figure out which is more plausable, that whole area is pretty scant on details of exactly what happened.

The last bit I find telling. At the end, in desperation, he begs Tzeentch to save his legion and offers himself to chaos. Why? Not the well understood 'this is why he did it' but the 'this is how he knew he could do it and actually stand a chance of having it accepted'. This wasn't joining the other traitors and plotting with Horus, this was going straight to a god; from memory, only the Word Bearers did the same and they started the whole mess. It took Horus by surprise so he obviously thought that the Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves were simply going to annihilate each other or at least cripple the survivor, getting two loyalists out of the way. I'm not sure if Magnus was approached by the others earlier and refused. It's possible, Ferrus Manus was. That would be a very good reason to have him killed to keep him quiet and the Emperor played right into Horus' plans. Said scenario would also work if he stumbled over the truth by accident (or sorcery, which would count as the same for the traitors) and they wanted to stop word getting out.

The other thought that comes to mind is that Magnus didn't know all the details, only knew that Horus has rebelled and not quite so much of the details and how closely chaos was wound into it. Then, during the battle of Prospero, he received whispers from Tzeentch or servants of the above god telling him he had been betrayed, and how his father had acted, and that he was going to be destroyed for doing what he had thought was the right thing. (More subtle versions could have been sparingly hinted at earlier, but Magnus was apparently able to resist well enough; if he'd doubts he wouldn't have sent the warning or sent it in the way he did. At that point I feel he was still firmly loyal.) He knew the offer had been made and at that last point accepted it.

I will agree that without a doubt, as soon as he said that he became a traitor. I'd argue that the transition occurred somewhat earlier around the time the SW began attacking. I just do not think it happened beforehand. And it seems that where a primach goes, the legion follows. Granted getting dragged through the warp probably helps since any still staunchly loyal can be left drifting somewhere in there or killed by daemons.

In summery: no, I do not think he was enraptured by chaos before this point. I also think that he was badly manipulated after having put himself in a position that he was deeply vulnerable to it. This is called making a series of dreadful mistakes, not doing it on purpose. I will also state that there is by now no hope of redemption for him, which is not going to stop me deeply enjoying Sauron's rendition of it in his Death of the Emperor story. That is what 'what if' scenarios are for. I've written several of my own. I also think that this argument is going to go nowhere until we get our hands on the two books specifically about what happened.

Manchu wrote:Your problem is with the fluff. You can't find evidence for your opinions so you call them "the lies of Chaos."

Tell me what your criticism of Russ is? It seems to me that your only problem with him is that he outshines Dorn in every way.

I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Critics of russ?
Maybe I don't put him on a pillar and claim he was flawless like some woofies do.

And it is nigh useless to care for who "outshines" whom. Because the fan will never accept an "inferiority" of his choice and
I won't misinterpret the HH to have Dorn shine in any way. But Maybe the boasting furry needs his selfglorification.
Dorn was a humble soldier. He was in charge of the defenses and led the legios in the emperors absence.
Seems russ did not shine enough to get this job. We can expand this thread to most shiny primarch if you want.

But again, i do prefer to keep this on track.

Responding in Parts

Morgrim wrote:I don't know the difference between psychic powers and sorcery

The nature of the difference is not important to this discussion. (It is later retconned in Visions that the Librarians would be disbanded entirely.) What Magnus did was sorcery and it was banned. So decreed the Emperor.

Morgrim wrote:When he sent that message he broke his oath. I'm just not entirely sure he broke it beforehand.

This is already settled: Magnus used sorcery to look into the Warp and foresee Horus's betrayal. (Can't you hear Tzeentch cackling "just as planned?" One son betrays the father to learn that another son will also.)

Morgrim wrote:I do think that at the time these events occurred, Magnus was not serving chaos. Even accidentally. Skating close to the line, possible, manipulated by it in the later stages definitely (but arguably no more than Russ was) but at the time the order was given not serving.

Magnus chose his investigation into the Warp via sorcery over loyalty to the Emperor. How was he not seduced by Chaos? His rationalizations that he remained loyal were by that point meaningless and only further served Chaos--as evidenced by the greatest folly of his pride, the message of warning that ended up allowing the Palace to be invaded by daemons. One might say that Magnus could not have foreseen this. This is absurd. The Emperor commanded him to cease because his sorceries were dangerous. Magnus was warned. By willfully proceeding in his crimes, Magnus formed constructive intent to harm the Imperium.

Morgrim wrote:He screwed up big time. That does not make one a heretic, it makes one an idiot.

No, it makes him a heretic as "conduct of sorcery would be outlawed forevermore as an unforgivable heresy against Mankind." (IA III p.65)

Morgrim wrote:The Emperor wanted him dragged back to Terra to explain himself and probably receive some form of punishment, but if the Emperor thought he had fallen then the order would actually have been to kill him, so the Emperor didn't consider the breaching of such an oath to be an act of no redemption and no return. (Has there actually been a fluff case of the Emperor being furious at one of his sons? I'm curious how he'd have reacted. And how the primachs would have reacted.)

At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Morgrim wrote:The argument at this point seems to be that Magnus had fallen before the invasion of Prospero.

Correct. And if you need more explicit proof:

None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp. (Visions of Heresy p97)

Morgrim wrote:Now, I do have to wonder how Magnus knew of the Heresy. The fact he knew of it at all is telling; if he'd seen it in a vision, I would have thought that he'd have at least looked into it a bit first, sent a message back to Terra by more conventional means. Using his powers and breaking his oath in a blantent 'cannot deny I've done this' fashion suggests urgency.

Might as well continue to let the fluff make my argument:

There are generals, tacticians, and great military minds who say that had Magnus acted upon his knowledge and taken his ship with his Thousand Sons he could have changed the course of the Heresy. Others point out that the Warp is an imprecise place, and Magnus could not be sure he would arrive in time to prevent Horus's treachery. Instead of direct intervention, Magnus embarked upon a more perilous path. The Primarch had never accepted the Emperor's belief in the peril of sorcery, and had broken his oath to turn from the pursuit of such knowledge. In his precognitive vision of the coming war, Magnus was certain he had found proof of the value of his studies. (IA III p65)

Magnus wanted vindication against the Emperor. His pride demanded it.Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgrim wrote:I also think that this argument is going to go nowhere until we get our hands on the two books specifically about what happened.

This argument will go nowhere as long as you ignore all existing fluff in favor of a potential retcon of which you have no evidence.

As to what Magnus knew, or thought he knew:

Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus's pledge of fealty to Chaos upon the feral fields of Davin. Horus's treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. Magnus saw the too-human foibles of Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children and Angron of the World Eaters played upon masterfully by Horus, and greater forces veiled by the Warp. He saw the terrible trap being laid for Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, Vulkan of the Salamanders, and cautious Corax of the Raven Guard on Istvaan V. He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold. Alone in the galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role but his own.(IA III p65)

Funny that the only thing that Magnus could not foresee was the Emperor's rage at his disobedience. Why do you think that is???


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1hadhq wrote:I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Clearly not. This thread is full of canonical background that you blatantly disregard.

I hereby back down. The vast majority of the quotes posted are completely new to me (I've never been able to find a copy of the Index Astartes, although admittedly not looked very hard because loyalists had never truly interested me), so apparently I'm debating based on clearly inferior information.

I actually think it's these interesting debates on dakkadakka that have actually gotten me interesting in any aspect of the Imperium other than the Blood Angels. Even when I find I'm almost completely in the wrong. I still think that Magnus was hoping to gain his father's approval, but in doing so sort of ensured the opposite. Classic hubris.

It does make for interesting 'what if' scenarios though.

Magnus is a fascinating and deeply sympathetic figure, especially to us nerdy types. As I mentioned elsewhere, I feel that I myself most resemble either him or Fulgrim in terms of personality--which I admit is not what I would prefer. It's easy to want him to be innocent (see Sean's "Death of the Emperor") and if you insist Magnus's shallowest rationalizations as his true intentions, perhaps you could view him as innocent. Do not forget, however, that innocence proves nothing. And the idea that Magnus is innocent (up until his pact with Tzeentch) is absurd. The "reality" (if you will) of the 40k universe is that Chaos does not require the consent of its servants. In the end, Chaos has no willing servants--only slaves. Perhaps this fear of unconscious corruption is what drives the Black Templars to such exacting fanaticism.