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The Black Templars are an excessively fragile warrior-cult, and yes, if they were all isolated individually, all it would take is the proper push. But because that event is unlikely, they will tear themselves apart before that could happen. All of their misguided zeal, their loyalty, their sacrificial nature, if Tzeentch were to come along and merely push them into the belief that doing whatever he had planned would help the Emperor, Dorn, the Imperium, or the like, I have no doubt they would helplessly fall to it. Such extremes in thought brings fragility when persuaded by something you believe in. I could easily see them falling, but once they realize what has happened, they will destroy themselves. They will tear apart at the seams and fight until no one is left.

Ive always seen the Black Templar's as the space marine equivalent of flagellants. Driven by pure zeal and xenophobic rage to destroy any and everything that could be seen as a blasphemy to the emperors name. If anything were to some how gain a foothold of corruption I agree it would likely lead to infighting and a chapter civil war purge campaign. Those surviving becoming even more fanatical in their cause.

BrotherStynier wrote:

Perhaps their part in the First War for Armageddon or the majorities, steadfast defense of humanity, particularly when others simply cast them aside.

Others? The wannabe ultras ?

Armageddon? Could the first appearance of BT and sallies as standalone list at the 3rd war alongside the 13th co hint on chapters with a niche that doesn't even remotely interfere with the place of the Space wolves in 40k?

I am still disagreeing with the OP, cause the speculations contradict the fluff of the BT codex.
Reduces it to nice "what if" theories that need you to ignore canon.

1hadhq wrote:

Armageddon? Could the first appearance of BT and sallies as standalone list at the 3rd war alongside the 13th co hint on chapters with a niche that doesn't even remotely interfere with the place of the Space wolves in 40k?

I am still disagreeing with the OP, cause the speculations contradict the fluff of the BT codex.
Reduces it to nice "what if" theories that need you to ignore canon.

It may not interfere with the SW place in 40k, but perhaps there is a hint of jealousy in that they were the first to be recognized as true defenders of the people of the Imperium.

Ignore canon as GW seems to do regularly? Can't be that hard.

BrotherStynier wrote:.... true defenders of the people of the Imperium.

Isn't that title bound to the marines of ultra-ish ultra?

No those that are Ultra-ish of Ultra simply believe themselves to be the defenders of the Imperium and everything in it. To my knowledge the Wolves prefer the people to the current administration.

The difference between Dorn and Russ is that Russ never tried to plunge the Imperium into civil war when it was at its weakest. Yes, Russ rejected the Codex (and was ultimately proven correct given the instability of Canis Helix) but it never came to blows against brothers. Dorn was dangerously close to falling before he finally accepted the Codex. The Black Templars represent the part of Dorn that never accepted it, that would have torn the galaxy apart from a misguided and guilt-racked sense of "loyalty" to the Emperor. And that's what the Templars are currently doing--tearing the galaxy apart on their selfish quest to prove that they are not traitors and that no one except them is above suspicion. Sounds a bit like you, 1hadhq. The three chapters that have stayed the most loyal to the Emperor's Great Crusade vision are the Ultramarines, the Salamander, and the Space Wolves. The Space Wolves stand apart because the Emperor bred them to root out renegades among his other sons. Their loyalty is beyond question. By contrast, the question of loyalty is the sole motivation for the Black Templars. Their origin is Dorn's guilt-inspired inferiority complex and they have never shaken that off--hence the ten thousand year crusade. That wasn't ordered by the Emperor. In fact, the BT are a dangerous and unwieldy force of near-psychopaths. If they were to fall, which I think could easily happen if they ever had to deal with a Dark Angels-esque internal heresy (because they couldn't deal with it as well as the DA have--and that's pretty bad), they stand to be a greater threat than one of Abaddon's Black Crusades. You can claim that this is conjecture, and of course a lot of it is, but I think it's entirely logical.

Cryonicleech wrote:

Manchu wrote:You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

Certainly.

They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

Well, for those who may or may not remember, Horus thought he was helping the emperor (and was to such an extent that he had no idea he was using chaotic energies to do it) and before he realized it, he was bombing the gak out of terra. Their weakness comes from their strength. They are eternally bound to the emperor, and as long as they believe they are serving him, they will do anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I must say that I completely agree with Manchu. Look at the crusades. The REAL ones. Pure faith in religion and 'unwavering loyalty' is what is causing people to destory their own homes TO THIS DAY from conflicts almost 1000 years old (and that's only if you're counting what's been historically proven). If you want to see a romanticized version of what happened, watch Kingdom of Heaven. The more zealous you are, the more likely you are to abuse it to get what you want. Absolute power+absolute faith= absolute corruption. The Black Templars have both.

Manchu wrote:The difference between Dorn and Russ is that Russ never tried to plunge the Imperium into civil war when it was at its weakest. Yes, Russ rejected the Codex (and was ultimately proven correct given the instability of Canis Helix) but it never came to blows against brothers.

Nice assumption but the sources arent clear what russ or vulcan did.

Manchu wrote:
Dorn was dangerously close to falling before he finally accepted the Codex. The Black Templars represent the part of Dorn that never accepted it, that would have torn the galaxy apart from a misguided and guilt-racked sense of "loyalty" to the Emperor.

Misguided loyality? Pardon me, but thats nonsense.

Manchu wrote:
And that's what the Templars are currently doing--tearing the galaxy apart on their selfish quest to prove that they are not traitors and that no one except them is above suspicion. Sounds a bit like you, 1hadhq.

You may have gotten away with some of this.

But your last line ruined it. No arguments, so start to offend?

Maybe it shall be this way.

I challenge thee to prove your loyality to the throne.
No more excuses.

Manchu wrote:
The three chapters that have stayed the most loyal to the Emperor's Great Crusade vision are the Ultramarines, the Salamander, and the Space Wolves.

First one maybe, second one surely, third one is questionable if i take our local SW actions into account.

Manchu wrote:.
The Space Wolves stand apart because the Emperor bred them to root out renegades among his other sons. Their loyalty is beyond question.

Hunting renegades? they didnt even recognize when horus turned....
Loyality is in question now. Was really fast when a dakkaite we know switched from SW to EC and then to WB....

Manchu wrote:
By contrast, the question of loyalty is the sole motivation for the Black Templars.

Once youre correct.
Its their job since Dorn ordered them to hunt down the hertic, witch and traitor.
You dont deny your Primarchs wishes.

Manchu wrote:
Their origin is Dorn's guilt-inspired inferiority complex and they have never shaken that off--hence the ten thousand year crusade. That wasn't ordered by the Emperor. In fact, the BT are a dangerous and unwieldy force of near-psychopaths. If they were to fall, which I think could easily happen if they ever had to deal with a Dark Angels-esque internal heresy (because they couldn't deal with it as well as the DA have--and that's pretty bad), they stand to be a greater threat than one of Abaddon's Black Crusades. You can claim that this is conjecture, and of course a lot of it is, but I think it's entirely logical.

Its entirely illogical.
NO heresy = no reason for internal fights.
Its more likely a SW great company mutinys and turns against the inquisition, ending the SW as "traitoris extremis"
in the eyes of the ordos. Next thing you see, is SOB, stormtroopers, IG and UM assaulting fenris....

So your next correct point is:
BT would outshine abby with ease. Thats not really a challenge to humble failbaddon and his minions.....

I kind of agree with Manchu. I could see the Black Templars causing a fight and seperating from the main imperial forces completely however I don't think they would join Chaos.

I think eventually the Templars are going to go to far. They may make the wrong decisions during a campaign that leads to huge losses or even try to attack another chapter of more likely a group of Inquisitors. They may get away with it at first as the imperium don't want to loose them but this will just make them feel like they are right so they continue until they go to far. I don't think the Black Templars will change their methods or backdown even when confronted by Imperial forces.

The thing seperating the Black Templars from other chapters is that they believe that it's their duty to the Emporer to hunt heretics and they are still on a mission set by their Primarch. While other chapters know the emporer and Primarchs want them to kill traitors and aliens none of them have such a task specifically set to them like the Templars do. These are the most zealous marines of a legion which have been a never ending job by their Primarch, they won't believe anyon has the authority to over rule the primarch so they will not listen to them.

They could easily turn on the imperium but they wouldn't view it as heresy more likely they would accuse everyone else of heresy for not doing everything in their power to kill the Traitor / Witch. Being so obsessed they wouldn't be bother hopw much damage they did as they are more interested in the idea of hunting heretics that whether it is actually helping.

@4M2A: You've hit the nail on the head.

The BT claim they answer to some higher principle of "crusading" in the name of the Emperor but their ideals do not match those of the Emperor's own Great Crusade. Whereas the Emperor strove to ensure humanity's rightful place as masters of the galaxy, the BT selfishly fight to reassure themselves that they are truly loyal. Of course, this means that they themselves recognize that their loyalty is or at least was at some point questionable. What was that point? As I have said time and again, it was the moment that Dorn could have fallen--or perhaps that moment when part of him did actually fall. The Primarch himself moved on, costing him his own original personality in my opinion and leaving him a shell of what he was before the Heresy, but in the process of saving himself he created the Black Templars. They are forever stuck in that moment, teetering on the knife-edge of corruption, and it terrifies them. Their entire existence is devoted to dealing with that fear by beating it into hatred and turning it against the galaxy.

So in fact they do not answer to any higher principles unless you count their own endless guilt as a higher principle. Much like the Dark Angels, they answer only to their own private sense of having lost their honor. And they will do anything to regain it/prove that they are loyal. Eventually, they will perceive the Imperium itself getting in the way of that--just as Dorn did when he nearly went to war with Guilliman--and each Templar will have to make his own decision--just as the Legionnaires did ten thousand years before. Will they ultimately find real redemption by sacrificing their fanatical pride for the sake of humanity or will they cling to their empty, self-serving "faith" and fall like Horrus and Magnus did . . . and as Dorn himself almost did? But remember, it was Lorgar who fell first--and it was his faith that corrupted him.

@1hadhq: In your arrogance, you dared to strike your brothers down. And so I showed you the power of Chaos that you might not underestimate it again. It seems you have learned nothing. Instead, your treacherous distortion of faith has fully ripened into blind corruption. What a pity you still have not realized that of all those who serve the Warp Gods, few even realize it and almost none do so willingly.

I'm not sure you're 100% spot on with this, of course it's not possible to be sure when you're working with such... I'll call it "interestingly diverse" material. However, the possibility that you might be right finally did something that nothing else in the history of 40k has been able to do - it made Black Templars somewhat interesting to me.

For that, Manchu, I thank you.

While I agree with Manchu's points, I'm begining to wonder if they aren't being stretched a little too far, as if there is some underlying motive...


One thing I have an issue with: why claim that it was Dorn purging his nature that led to the Black Templars acting as they do? He took the entire legion into an almost suicidal guilt wracked act of penance, the seeds would have been laid then. I'm also failing to see how he was about to put himself before the Imperium when he opposed Guilliman. On the contrary, he WAS thinking of the Imperium the whole time, he felt that the near death of the Emperor was his fault, that it was because he'd failed, and that even if they didn't say so all of the others blamed him too. So much so that he turned to harming himself in an attempt to atone. I think his moment of clarity was in backing down, because he realised that he couldn't win, the others (or at least Guilliman) wouldn't back down, and he couldn't bring himself to do anything that would harm the Imperium more than what had been done; whether it was out of a sense of duty (I am responsible for his fate, I must help hold his greatest work together) or out of a realisation that if he did cause the war to flare back up, he'd be as bad as his fallen brothers.

The moment of madness wasn't when he backed down, but in what he did afterwards. I honestly don't think he expected to survive the Iron Cage incident. I think he hoped to kill Perturbo and thus ease the burden of those that would have to fight against the fallen primachs, and perhaps felt it was a fair exchange of a life for a life. He wanted to die doing something of value, because he didn't think he'd earned the right to live.

I wonder what was said during or after to make him snap out of his suicidal tendencies. He certainly appeared to be much more stable when he was the only primach still active, although arguably still reckless.

@Shane: Thanks, I think.

OnT: I believe that the siege of the Iron Cage happened before the Codex controversy. Having been wracked with shame and guilt since the siege of Terra, Dorn started using the Pain Glove and was inspired by a "vision" (::cough cough:: Slaanesh anyone? ::cough:: ) induced by the sensations of terrific pain that he inflicted upon himself. The "vision" was that his "failure" had to be redeemed by visiting severe pain on himself and his Legion. So he trotted off to the Iron Cage and fought a single-minded campaign of attrition until the Ultramarines intervened and drove off the Iron Warriors. I'm not saying that Dorn and the Fists fought poorly in this case, only that they had ceased to care about their own casualties in a haze of madness.

Once the traitors had been driven off in to the Eye of Terror, Guilliman demanded that the surviving loyalists adopt the Codex to prevent another Horus Heresy. One can only wonder how what Gulliman witnessed at the Iron Cage influenced his insistence in this matter. In any case, Dorn--still awash in the epiphany of his penitential mission, his holy crusade of redemption--saw this in the only way that a man who believes himself dishonored sees anything: as a insult to his own character and loyalty. Gulliman was in fact saying that none of the Primarchs, even Rogal Dorn defender of Terra, could be trusted with a Legion any more. Dorn went into a frenzy, blind to the rationality of Gulliman's demands, blind to the fact that in his rage he was fulfilling Gulliman's worst fears and justifying the adoption of the Codex Astartes. In other words, he began to fall to Chaos just as the others had started to fall: believing that all they did was for the good of the Imperium, believing that others wanted to insult and destroy them out of jealousy and pride. Dorn was becoming a mirror image of Horus before the visions of Davin.

But before the Ruinous Powers could reach forth and pluck another prize of treachery, Dorn relented. It is not clear what made him change his mind. We could speculate at length, I'm sure. But what in fact happened was that Dorn's acquiescence was half-hollow. The Imperial Fists and the Crimson Fists became straight-laced Codex chapters, second only to the Ultramarines themselves in strict obedience to the dictates of the Codex. But the old guard of the VII Legion, headed by none other than Dorn's right hand man and personal protege Sigismund, formed the Black Templars. A better way to put this would be that what became the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists chapters were split off of the VII Legion. What was left over was thenceforth known as the Black Templars. The BT were not a new creation at all. They were the preservation of Dorn's madness even after he himself seemed to turn away from madness (he went with the Imperial Fists chapter). They continued and continue even today his fanatical quest of repentance, seeking redemption for the crimes he accused himself of and then accused others of also accusing him of (Gulliman, I mean).

Like I said, the BT are frozen in time. They never moved on from that moment when Dorn nearly fell. They did not make the choice, along with the man who had been their Primarch, to accept the Codex and back down from the reckless, selfish crusade. They are stuck on the precipice of their Primarch's near fall ten thousand years ago, still teetering. I am using the metaphor of schizophrenia--the divergence of Dorn's own personality--to describe what happened to him in the wake of the Heresy. It seems to me that he literally went insane. I don't know if he ever completely got over it but I am sure that the BT never have.

OffT: The "underlying motive" is non-existent. My thoughts on this matter go back for some time. You can read my first Dakka posts on this issue in this thread. The debate between 1hadhq and I goes back to his betrayal of the Space Wolves in this thread*, whereupon I unleashed the forces of Chaos to his enormous chagrin. I doubt he'll ever forgive me for summoning up the forces to wipe the floor with the remaining loyalist chapters. He also doesn't approve of me building a CSM army.

*See especially the bottom of page ten and, of course, the heretical glory of page fourteen.

Manchu wrote:
@1hadhq: In your arrogance, you dared to strike your brothers down. And so I showed you the power of Chaos that you might not underestimate it again. It seems you have learned nothing. Instead, your treacherous distortion of faith has fully ripened into blind corruption. What a pity you still have not realized that of all those who serve the Warp Gods, few even realize it and almost none do so willingly.

I'll no longer waste my time and comment on your erraneous ways to blackmail brother chapters in the name of your false gods.
Where Morgirm has it right, youre still confused with the lies of the word twisters (bearers).

And for the record, I didnt strike any brother down, instead fought your treachery.
Paint your armor grey as much as you like, i dont see a space wolf standing before me.

Manchu wrote:OffT: The "underlying motive" is non-existent. My thoughts on this matter go back for some time. You can read my first Dakka posts on this issue in this thread. The debate between 1hadhq and I goes back to his betrayal of the Space Wolves in this thread*, whereupon I unleashed the forces of Chaos to his enormous chagrin. I doubt he'll ever forgive me for summoning up the forces to wipe the floor with the remaining loyalist chapters. He also doesn't approve of me building a CSM army.

*See especially the bottom of page ten and, of course, the heretical glory of page fourteen.

Is that willingly stupid or do we need an exorcist to tear the demon out of your body?
No underlying motive?
Would laugh if it wasnt such shame for russ. Lost another son to the ruinous powers.
Your whole tactic in the mentioned thread consisted of backstabbing battlebrothers.
When i finally challenged you to show your colors, we all saw the slaneshi servant.
Whoever summons the warp, is lost to it.
Someone should have declared you "extremis diabolus", but it seems a inquisitor found a useful tool.....

PS:
When will we see those poor space wolves defend themselves? IIRC their brother space marines ( me too )
had to rescue them in the super-survivor thread several times, even filthy xenos jumped to their aid.

BOT:
Still completley wrong picture of the motives of the Imperial fists-soon to be Black Templars.
Its unknown how Dorn "snapped out of it" ?
Rather easy answer. He was never "in it". A rationale militarian like Dorn would wage the plans and make a decision.
His was against gully mans plans. He was also not alone on this. Instead of accepting the few known facts,
this thread is full of attempts to piss on the IF. Ok there already yellow, but it is still noticed.
Changing the background from stubborn marines with self-sacrificial tendencies to insane psychopaths? really?

Templars root out corruption.
A good reason for manchu to fear them........
But Templars would also kill themselves if they're the corrupted ones.
And the collateral damage they do, isn't greater than those of several other chapters.
Could be more dangerous to have the bloody angels at your side than the sons of Dorn.

There seems to be a bit of timeline confusion here.

Manchu's post implies he thinks the order was Iron Cage, Guilliman's demand, madness, relenting and splitting.

The timeline of such events was Guilliman's demand, Iron Cage (possible madness being before, after and/or during this event), relenting and splitting.

Dorn was admitted as not being quite in his right mind when he led the assault on the Iron Cage, especially since he was usually cautious and well prepared. Extensive abuse of a Pain Glove probably didn't help this. It was only after this that he split his legion. Fluff actually states that their organisation before this made splitting nearly impossible, and it was only because of the severe losses they took that this was possible. That in and of itself makes me wonder if at least part of Dorn had submitted before he publically agreed to follow the Codex Astartes. Another part may be that in his guilt, he finally came to doubt his own decisions.

The Imperial Fists are still known for being overzealous and self flagellating. It is less that they do not exhibit the same traits as the Black Templars and more that they do so to a lesser degree and will place other motivations ahead of it if the need arises.


And why am I defending the Imperium? And from Manchu no less?

As an old wolf player I still see the Black Templars as a retconned chapter created in the wake of 3rd edition to make Warhammer 40,000 more grimdark.

From what I understand behind the BT fluff, I think Manchu is on to something.

oh, and 1had, the lost companies of Space Wolves are not necesarily traitors, they are simply lost, either destroyed, stuck in the warp, or completing a quest/oath that prevents them from returning to the Fang. Temptation or desire is what leads many to chaos, and Space Wolves have everything they could ever want, a life of fighting in the heavens, walking amongst gods. How many other chapters have a company still fighting for their Primarch and the Emperor after 10,000 years in the eye of terror?

Manchu, trying to convince a Black Templar player that his army was created in the self-loathing image of a nearly traitorous Primarch is just about pointless.

Demogerg wrote:As an old wolf player I still see the Black Templars as a retconned chapter created in the wake of 3rd edition to make Warhammer 40,000 more grimdark.

OK

Possible. They started as cover of a rulebook and rised from codex armageddon and Index astartes to a
standalone force ( codex ).

Demogerg wrote:
From what I understand behind the BT fluff, I think Manchu is on to something.

He's sadly lost to the warp there....

Isn't it scary when the xeno ( Morgrim ) have the imperial fluff correct and your astartes battlebrothers not?

Demogerg wrote:
oh, and 1had, the lost companies of Space Wolves are not necessarily traitors, they are simply lost, either destroyed, stuck in the warp, or completing a quest/oath that prevents them from returning to the Fang. Temptation or desire is what leads many to chaos, and Space Wolves have everything they could ever want, a life of fighting in the heavens, walking amongst gods. How many other chapters have a company still fighting for their Primarch and the Emperor after 10,000 years in the eye of terror?

Didn't a former GW rulesdesigner ( one i dont miss ) dig at the wolves with a crappy piece of "renegade space wolves" fluff?
Is there any "renegade" BT ever?
Is there a "wolf brother" in dark sky black sun, refuting the chance to repent?


Most sons of russ may be loyal, my point is their interest at personal glory ( sagas ).
A templar doesnt care if he dies, or if someone notices it.
A space wolf would still want one to survive to tell his saga....

So the Templar has all he needs from the beginning.
The space wolf still needs success to create a saga.

Makes the difference. The total grimdark Templar, and the less grimdark space wolf.
One asking for total destruction of his enemys. The other on a quest to achieve destruction of his enemys alongside of his primary goal.

Both come from a different experience of the heresy.
The templar fought at the palace and faced off the traitors. Still didnt manage to protect the emprah ( but i doubt this was possible, if it was, his custodes would have achieved it ).
The space wolf fought at prospero and kicked magnus over to chaos.
Ran into the alphas next and didnt make it to the party in time.

Both primarchs hunted down traitors after the siege.

Russ didnt change his course and is still at it? Refuted the codex and still not called traitor?
Dorn did a full stop, sent part of his Legion to hunt the traitors whilst adopting to G-mans plans.

So i dont criticize the space wolves, but Manchu's double standards.

Either every primarch refuting G-man was deemed traitor or none of the 3 .

Plus, sending space marines on a crusade to repent isnt unheard of. Its part of the codex.
Even a great wolf could do this if some of his marines fail in their duty.

But Dorn didnt sent his men to repent. He ordered them to annihilate the traitor, heretic and mutant/psyker.

Not really different from SoB.... are they also on the edge?

Rather not. Cause faith protects.

Demogerg wrote:
Manchu, trying to convince a Black Templar player that his army was created in the self-loathing image of a nearly traitorous Primarch is just about pointless.

Most of the loyal primarchs had a lot to think of, but none fell.

Templars doesn't hate themself, their hate is exclusively spared for those opposing the Emperor.

Sadly, this makes them vulnerable to backstabbing from brother space marines ...

Interesting side note about Space Wolves... they can open fire on the Inquisition for being jackasses, and still not be labeled heretics because they are that badass.
/flex


welcome to Dakkadakka, where there are enough vehemit Space Wolf fanbois to turn any thread into a Space Wolf oriented one.

Sorry, the space wolves were my fault. May i redirect a thread to russ if i am not a fanboi too?

1hadhq wrote:
He's sadly lost to the warp there....

Isn't it scary when the xeno ( Morgrim ) have the imperial fluff correct and your astartes battlebrothers not?

Believe me, I know the irony. Can I chalk it up to knowing your enemy, or do I have to admit it's because I've run from enough Inquisitors, SM, SoB, commissars and general Imperium to have to learn fast to keep one step ahead? (Or at least one step to the side and knowing how to pick a lock before they get you to a proper jail cell.)


On a less joking around note, fluff is something I do find interesting, and I'll admit little to no interest in many of the HH books, I still enjoy the distilled information that has come out of them. I also like seeing just how far the fluff can be pushed and what interesting conclusions could be drawn, even if I know damn well that it is impossible or clearly didn't happen. I like 'what if' scenarios. <.< My friends and I had a highly entertaining 'what if' discussion about what may have happened on the battle barge between two brothers, and how interesting it was that they spent the whole time attempting to persuade the other; warriors of that caliber are unlike to meet, have a chance to strike a single blow, and then be dying/just dead when the Emperor appears, considering how long it appeared to take. It is incredibly well known what the final, broad strokes of such actions were (I'm hoping that the BL fills in the minor blanks at some point, there are some odd occurrences there), but still interesting to think about what may have happened if one weakened enough to at least partially agree with the other.

And now I'll stop derailing...

I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning. As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning. As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.

Manchu wrote:I'm in a Houston airport at the moment and so can't provide you with the exact quotes but the BT Codex makes it clear that the Codex debate happened after the traitors were driven into the Eye of Terror. It was the Iron Cage incident that drove off the Iron Warriors (thanks as much to Guilliman as Dorn) so ipso facto Iron Cage was before Dorn went temporarily bonkers. What we have here seems a case of relying on Lexicanum, although I will gladly admit to being wrong if some one can provide a source (I don't have Index Astartes, for example) that contradicts my reasoning.

Then start to admit youre wrong.
Cause all your evidence contradicts the Index astartes article about the imperial fists and their primarch.
IA II, page 12-17.

Timeline:

- siege of the imperial palace,
- Dorn follows the emprah at the final confrontation with horus but gets split from him. Returns emprah to terra.
- Dorn and other loyal primarchs hunt the fleeing traitors. Mercilessly slaughtering them and levelling their fortresses.
- Gullyman Rebuilds the imperium.
- Gully man calls Dorn back and informs him (and the other primarchs) about his plans to split the legios.
- Iron warriors challenge the imperial fists to storm their "iron cage".
- Dorns knows he got too many veterans that cannot accept the changes after heresy ( loss of the emprah,
splitting the legios) and decides to accept the challenge. Storms seeing the trap still the IW stronghold
to claim perturabos ass.
- Gullyman pulls Dorn out of the IW trap, since killing perturabo is less important than Dorns survival.
- The fists reorganise the next 20 years to become fully codex compliant.
- the crimson fists as relative new memebrs of the fists adopted the codex.
- the black templars, collected the veterans and kept on with the crusade.

Seems your argument falls apart here.

The fists also proved their faith in the time of the apostasy, when the sons of dorn were those marines who
relieved the solar system from the evil of vandire's rule. Alongside the sisters.

And additionally the BT entry:
IA page 45-51

The background article starts when the legios split. Its identical with the codex fluff.
So in the given timescale it represents the time after dorn hunted the traitors and after he marched with the whole legio against the IW.
Then, and yes not somewhere before did 3 primarchs refute to accept the codex.
We know that Dorn confronted the idea and was willing to stick with his opinion in the same stubborn way
he always was.
We dont know how russ or vulkan acted.
We do know, that Dorn changed his mind when a attack-cruiser was attacked from the imperial navy.

As a pure soldier, Dorn may have remembered how things can get out of hand.
There is nothing grimdark, when a stubborn person is able to let it go, others should laud his efforts to put
the imperium over his personal feelings.

Manchu wrote:

As for 1hadhq, your treachery is plain in the survivor thread (voting against SW before I started voting) and there is no point arguing fluff with you since the sum of your position is an ideological flourish: "you are a traitor; I am not.". At least you truly represent the blind arrogance of your chapter.

Treachery?
Against your warp spawned friends of the traitor legios?

Should i really quote the PM's here and ruin your false accusations....?

Plus, what i did here, was in his service, glory to the throne.

A BT thread needs a supporter of the BT POV.

Could go for at least 5 or 6 other chapter- "personalities" in fluff terms...

But youre correct, there is no point arguing fluff based on the lies of heretics against the imperial truth.

Cause truth prevails. As does the allfather.

If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars without having to give it even more than a seconds worth of consideration. They are the most righteous and zealous and frankly I think your base argument is flawed from the get go. I do not recall ever seeing anything that indicated that Dorn divided his psyche and or personality into thirds thereby creating the Crimson Fists, Templars and the remaining Imperial Fists. I believe those chapters were carefully created and that the marines chosen for each were chosen for their particular skills and outlook.

I could not disagree with your theory more Manchu and think you are really reaching with your hypothesis. In the actual fluff, this type of thinking gets you visited by the Inquisition unless of course a Black Templar, Imperial Fist or Crimson Fist heard even a whisper of your theory first in which case of Inquisition could visit and question the small stain on the wall the marines would leave of you.

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

WGXH wrote:

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

Since they have such a plethora of psychics I am no longer sure the Grey Knights will remain pure just based upon the events in their own series.

Hialmar wrote:

WGXH wrote:

Hialmar wrote:If I had to pick the one Chapter least likely to fall to Chaos it would be the Black Templars...

and not the Grey Knights?

Since they have such a plethora of psychics I am no longer sure the Grey Knights will remain pure just based upon the events in their own series.

Series are a fine place to ruin the fans imagination of his faction in 40k. Remember the happyness of the BA?

At least, codex templar marks the grey knights as acceptable psyker to us, so its rather the numbers that will
allow the BT to survive longer than the GK in the end.

There's zero chance the Black Templars would turn to Chaos. Sure they have characteristics that separate them from most (not all) codex chapters, namely their aggressive zeal and faith, but what they have in common are their principles.

When the big bad school yard bully starts kicking the weak around, the people sitting on the sides have a choice to make. They either make the easy one and side with the seemingly strong bully and join him in the kicking, or refuse to take sides and avoid confrontation altogether and leave the scene, or go in and defend the weaker party and immediately become the next guy to be bullied and smacked around. The opportunists take the first choice, the cowards the second, and the heroes the last one.

When Horus asked his brothers' legions to join him against the Emperor, the ones who accepted were the weak ones with no principles or morals. They saw that the big school yard bully was going to war and that the easiest way forward was to help him out or alternatively sit at the sidelines avoiding confrontation. Most of them would've sided with the Emperor but for the fact Emperor wasn't there when they were forced to decide. The traitors were opportunists and capitalists who would do anything in order to keep accumulating power. The ones who were asked but refused, like Iron Hands, showed that they would rather die than to do something they inherently felt was wrong and evil and completely against all the things they stood for. It was to go against the very reason of their existence. You don't need to know or be told something is wrong, because you can feel it in your gut.

Very few people in real life put their own neck, reputation and emotional well-being at risk simply to do what is right. The loyalist first founding legions did it and showed they were the ones who were truly created from the Emperor's image. They would do the right thing, no matter what.

I would agree with some other poster earlier that the Black Templars would suicide on their own guns before falling to Chaos. If every Space Marine chapter in the universe turned against the Emperor, the Black Templars would refuse and die in a glorious blaze of defiance. I believe it would be one of the better endings they could think of. The Black Templars values are so strong that they would go to war with their own command structure if they detected heresy within. In one particular Black Library short story the Black Templars are fighting Khornate cultists on a Chaos infested planet, and when their commander orders them to tactically retreat, the Templar grunts start to question the commander's loyalty and faith in the Emperor and even go so far as to refuse certain orders and go on record that they're reporting him once the mission is over. In my opinion the Black Templars overall are uncorruptible. They are a chapter in which every person is an Imperial Commissar watching out for their battle-brothers. When everyone else falls, they stand. They don't say the following for nothing: "Your honour is your life. Let none dispute it."

The problem with your arguement is that the Black Templars do not Crusade in an attempt to redeem themselves of a terrible Dorn related secret. There are several reasons the templars crusade as they do. 1.) Is to prove their loyalities to the Emperor, not, though due to a dark secret but rather due to the Ultramarines accusing them of heresy when Dorn refused(along with several other Primarchs mind you) to consent to the codex. 2.) Fluff tells us that Dorn upon finding the body of the Emperor, shattered his sword over his knee because he felt he had failed the Imperium and the Emperor because he was not there to protect him. The Templars then carry their Father's grief and see forgiveness in which they believe they can find through the deaths of all the Emperor's enemies. 3.) The sheer amount of faith and confidence they have in the Emperor is, I believe, beyond any other group in the Imperium and that to even question it is simply foolhardy. Their faith rivals that of the Grey Knights and Sisters themselves if not simply overpowering them.

On a side note. If we're going to accuse any Loyalist chapter of being capable of being Heretics here, I'd put my money on Space Wolves. Why? Well they fired on the Ecclesiarchy(sp) and had a minor war with them above Fenris itself. The only reason(I believe this was noted in the codex) that they haven't been accused of heretics is that they due to their feriocity and battle prowess the Inquisition wants to keep them as an ally and thinks they would make to great of an enemy.

Graham McNeill wrote:With the threat of extinction lifted for the immediate future, Roboute Guilliman, Primarch of the Ultramarines Legion, devised a military organisation that would sread the power of the Legiones Astartes, Imperial Navy and Imperial Army across the galaxy, so no longer would one individual wield the power of a Legion again. For the Space Marines, these rules were laid down in the Codex Astartes . . . (Codex Black Templars, pg6, my emphasis)

Matthew Ward wrote:Knowing of Guilliman's lethal efficiency in war, Horus had masterfully planned his rebellion to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting far in the galactic south. As a result, the Ultramarines had come through the terrible wars largely unscathed. Yet even these mighty warriors were stretched to the limit in buying time for other loyalist forces to regroup and rearm. Legends tell that Guilliman was everywhere in these times . . . With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a might tome known as the Codex Astartes . . . Never again would one man be able to command the awesome, terrifying power of a Space Marine Legion. (Codex: Space Marine 5th ed., pg. 7, my emphasis)

Phil Kelly wrote:Perhaps the High Lords recognised the problems of genetic instability that would plague the legacy of Leman Russ, giving rise in later times to the terrible curse of the Wulfen. Perhaps Leman Russ had no intention of breaking apart his mighty Legion so that they could be divided and conquered if necessary. What is known, however, is that the Space Wolves had and still have little regard for the dictates and military traditions of the Codex Astartes, instead holding sacred to the teachings of Russ that are handed down from Wolf Priest to Blood Claw whelp even to this day. (Codex: Space Wolves 2nd ed. pg. 9)

Dan Abnett wrote:Space Marines are inherently tough but Space Wolves are particularly dangerous. They are ruthless, they are savage, they are brutal. It begs the question, why would the Emperor permit something quite so dangerous and untamed to exist? And that would be to take down another legion (my emphasis, source link provided below*)

A lot has been said about the loyalty of the Black Templars, about their unbreakable faith. But what exactly is the meaning of their zealotry? What is this "faith" that they fanatically defend? The point that all of you are missing is that the Black Templars represent the very opposite of what the Emperor wanted for the galaxy. As you can see from the above quotations, it was Guilliman rather than Dorn who saved the Imperium from destruction at the hands of the traitors (the erroneous assumption seems to be that the Heresy ended with Horus's death)--Dorn was too busy wallowing in self-pity, subjecting himself to Slaaneshi-like pain-induced visions, and (no matter what the specifics of the timeline) loosing his fething mind to lead the surviving loyalists. Yes, the Imperial Fists played the noblest role (Custodes aside) in the defense of Terra under Dorn. Yes, they most likely played a large part in driving the traitors into the Eye of Terror. They did this, however, at the direction of Roboute Guilliman. Guilliman even saved Dorn himself from the clutches of the Iron Hands. Guilliman, it would seem, better embodies the vision of the Emperor than Dorn. Ultramar is the only corner of the galaxy that even remotely resembles what the Emperor set out to accomplish on the Great Crusade. The Black Templars, by contrast, are a perversion--just as the Ecclesiarchy itself is a perversion, (from every indication in existing fluff) totally unintended by the Emperor and ironically the abortive brainchild of Lorgar. Like the Ultramarines--as opposed to the Black Templars--the Space Wolves have also stayed true to the Emperor's vision for them. Or do you think that the genetic instability of the Canis Helix is some sort of mistake on the part of the Emperor? I think not. The Emperor knew perfectly well what he was doing when he made Leman Russ: the Emperor didn't need yet another brilliant, brooding tactician; no, he needed a Primarch-killer. He needed a Legion-hunting Legion. The Inquisition, insofar as it is remotely informed as to the Emperor's true intentions, would not dare to challenge ANY of the chpaters--least of all the Space Wolves--on theological points. To the extent that the Inquisition was involved in the attempted Ecclesial interdict, it seems to have learned its lesson.

*Abnett quote