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@Morgrim: Good point about Liber Chaotica and Xenology being written from fictional perspectives that effect the narrative. Visions is not written this way but from a third-person omniscient, like history.


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whatwhat wrote:That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.

I get it that you think Alan Merrett is an unreliable writer. Fine. It's still canonical. Would you argue that the Index Astartes articles are non-canonical? Would you argue that the Ciaphas Cain novels are non-canonical? The presence of contradictions or their frequency is not enough to exempt Visions from canon.

Manchu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

whatwhat wrote:That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.

I get it that you think Alan Merrett is an unreliable writer. Fine. It's still canonical. Would you argue that the Index Astartes articles are non-canonical? Would you argue that the Ciaphas Cain novels are non-canonical? The presence of contradictions or their frequency is not enough to exempt Visions from canon.

No, I think the fluff writen in visions is unreliable, not Merrett. At the end of the day it's an art book which has the story of the heresy alongside it to fill pages and give some background to the pictures your seeing. It's blatently not been cross checked and looked over as much as the HH series or otherwise, evident from its many mistakes of which my Torgadon example was just a snipet. And therefore as Morgrim suggested, we should take what it says with a pinch of salt.

I understand your position, which is why I have included more than one source where possible, but I think your skepticism could apply as much to Visions as to a Codex. After all, a codex is just a rulebook with some story alongside to fill the pages. Any way you slice it, there is no official stance on what is not canon. Thus it is all canon until it is explicitly superseded. The picture of Tarik is no different from the green Blood Angel in this regard--namely, we can spot what is obviously incorrect while the rest must be accepted as canon.

Manchu wrote:The picture of Tarik is no different from the green Blood Angel in this regard--namely, we can spot what is obviously incorrect while the rest must be accepted as canon.

See I don't get that. If I was to say do an exam paper on something and I took a book to gain reference. If part of the book was littered with obvious mistakes, do i still trust the rest of it enough to include it in my exam paper? No. Same principle here. Visions has too many mistakes for us to uphold parts we are unsure of with any trust. You can't base a key point in your argument on Visions for that reason.

If I must write an exam paper on a subject for which every reference is riddled with mistakes do I just refuse to wrte the paper? No, I sort out what is common among the sources and point out where they disagree while ignoring the obvious errors. Which key point is based only on Visions anyway?

Manchu wrote:If I must write an exam paper on a subject for which every reference was riddled with mistakes do I just refuse to wrte the paper? No, I sort out what is common among the sources and point out where they disagree while ignoring the obvious errors.

And since you can't do the same here?

Manchu wrote:Which key point is based only on Visions anyway?

No other source you have quoted besides visions explicitly states what the emporer intended the space wolves to do when sent to prospero.

I have done that. What are you talking about?


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whatwhat wrote:No other source you have quoted besides visions explicitly states what the emporer intended the space wolves to do when sent to prospero.

No source whatsoever explicitly states what the Emperor intended the Space Wolves to do when sent to Prospero, although in False Gods Horus tells Fulgrim that Russ was to escort Magnus back to Terra. Visions has the Emperor say directly to Magnus at Nikaea that he will destroy him if he should continue practicing sorcery. This agrees with Index Astartes that the practice of sorcery was made an "unforgivable heresy against mankind" at Nikaea. Committing an unforgivable crime against mankind sounds like a capital offense to me.

What am i talking about? Well for example just there you have taken Visions as sacred and used a highly implicit IA example which doesn't even state a specific context to try and warrant its credibility.

Here's an earlier example of you placing so much faith in Collected Visions alone.

Manchu wrote:At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Also to go with the False Gods quote which has been given to you supporting the argument that the Empiorer sent Russ to bring Magnus back to terra. I am almost 99% certain it says the same thing in Fulgrim. I will get you a page number tonight.

whatwhat wrote:What am i talking about? Well for example just there you have taken Visions as sacred and used a highly implicit IA example which doesn't even state a specific context to try and warrant its credibility.

Here's an earlier example of you placing so much faith in Collected Visions alone.

Manchu wrote:At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Manchu wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
There also remains the question of Russ. Was Russ sent to destroy Prospero or to merely chain Magnus? Despite claims to the contrary, I have already mentioned in this thread that both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons entries of the Index Astartes say that the truth of Prospero is clouded by perspective. (As I have also already mentioned, Abnett has said that this sense of mystery will not be resolved by A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.) Existing canon suggests that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and trusted Russ with the mission to Prospero for the very reason that Russ had always been suspicious of Magnus. I've also pointed out many times that Abnett claims the Space Wolves were bred for the purpose of taking out another Legion.

Okay. The firs example is a quote from Index Astartes followed by another form Visions for side-by-side comparison. And the second example . . . is about Index Astartes and Dan Abnett's video on the BL website. I'm not following.

I would say that 'Collected Visions', whilst beautiful and an absolute must-have (along with Liber Chaotica) is a total mess thematically. It feels like a rush over of the Heresy with only a basic understanding of the subject matter.

Plus, It was released in a slight rush to aid the Horus Heresy Card Game as well (which sadly bombed), so I wouldn't feel too comfortable placing too much faith in what was written in it...

whatwhat wrote:Also to go with the False Gods quote which has been given to you supporting the argument that the Empiorer sent Russ to bring Magnus back to terra. I am almost 99% certain it says the same thing in Fulgrim. I will get you a page number tonight.

Do you think I've said that the Emperor sent Russ to kill Magnus? You'd better re-read my posts. What I said is that the Emperor sent Russ to fetch Magnus back to Terra so that he could be killed.


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Dark Lord Seanron wrote:I would say that 'Collected Visions', whilst beautiful and an absolute must-have (along with Liber Chaotica) is a total mess thematically. It feels like a rush over of the Heresy with only a basic understanding of the subject matter.

Plus, It was released in a slight rush to aid the Horus Heresy Card Game as well (which sadly bombed), so I wouldn't feel too comfortable placing too much faith in what was written in it...

Visions is actually four separate books published over two years and then collected into one book the next year. There was no rush. It was written, by the way, by the guy who is in charge of overseeing GW's IP.

Manchu wrote:Okay. The firs example is a quote from Index Astartes followed by another form Visions for side-by-side comparison.

As with before you have used an implicit IA quote to backup an explicit quote in Visions. The IA quote alone does not state that Russ was sent to kill Magnus.

Manchu wrote:And the second example . . . is about Index Astartes and Dan Abnett's video on the BL website. I'm not following.

sorry, cut and paste mishap.

Manchu wrote:

whatwhat wrote:Also to go with the False Gods quote which has been given to you supporting the argument that the Empiorer sent Russ to bring Magnus back to terra. I am almost 99% certain it says the same thing in Fulgrim. I will get you a page number tonight.

Do you think I've said that the Emperor sent Russ to kill Magnus? You'd better re-read my posts. What I said is that the Emperor sent Russ to fetch Magnus back to Terra so that he could be killed.

No I'm hinting more at you using those quotes to backup your idea that Magnus had already turned to chaos.


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Dark Lord Seanron wrote:I would say that 'Collected Visions', whilst beautiful and an absolute must-have (along with Liber Chaotica) is a total mess thematically. It feels like a rush over of the Heresy with only a basic understanding of the subject matter.

Plus, It was released in a slight rush to aid the Horus Heresy Card Game as well (which sadly bombed), so I wouldn't feel too comfortable placing too much faith in what was written in it...

I think your thoughts are echoed by all but Manchu.

whatwhat wrote:As with before you have used an implicit IA quote to backup an explicit quote in Visions. The IA quote alone does not state that Russ was sent to kill Magnus.

The IA quotation was included to show that the in that source the Emperor was furious with Magnus and unleashed the Space Wolves against Prospero. The Visions quotation shows that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and unleashed the Space Wolves against Prospero. I put them side by side to show that there is agreement between the sources. I do not claim that either one shows Russ was sent to kill Magnus. I later show sources, as I have already explained, in agreement with regard to the ultimate fate of Magnus on Terra--death. Plus, I do not need to quote IA to prove Visions. Visions stands on its own as a canonical source. To the extent that all GW sources seem to contradict themselves or each other or both, I have tried to use more than one canonical source where possible.

Right, if we set aside Visions of the Horus Heresy for the moment as being unreliable, what are we left with?

Going on the bits quoted with references earlier: We have evidence that Magnus used psykic powers that he was banned from using. An example of this is him projecting himself into the warp to warn Horus, and then doing lots of pyrotechnics.

We have evidence of Russ being sent with a very strong force, including Custodes, to (if you'll excuse the pun) bring Magnus to heel. Given the forces it seems they expected him to fight or were at least preparing for the worst while hoping he would come quietly.

However, it does seem that the two points unique to Visions are the Emperor's immediate reaction to Magnus' message, and the suggestion that he'd persuaded his legion to keep studying sorcery and was deeply embedded in chaos and had fallen long before.

None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp. (Visions of Heresy p97)

The author is speculating here. It is suggested this could be possible, but no evidence given for it. The last sentence I would hold as likely to be true, but also that continuing to study it was breaking of his oath and possible treason, but not the chaos worship implied. I think what we can draw from Visions on this manner is that the Emperor was furious (we just don't know how angry or what his precise instructions were: the next HH novel should help clear that up and we may know if Magnus' death was, as Manchu is suggesting, inevitable) and that he kept studying sorcery after he was told not to (which we kind of already knew).


I would still really like GW to tell us how sorcery relates to psykic powers, since the first is forbiden on pain and death and the second is fine if you are sanctioned and can control it. It's just that Magnus was described as a powerful psyker and some of his actions do seem like psykic powers, so he was apparnetly doing something different or a forbidden branch of psykic powers. All I can think of it that they are a particularly brutal kind that require paying a high price to use: False Gods did state that it required the sacrifice of lives to power the sort of astral projection trick he was doing.

Of course this strongly implies that the Emperor is now doing the same thing, sacrificing psykers to power his own astral projection and the channeling of the Astronomicon.

whatwhat wrote:No I'm hinting more at you using those quotes to backup your idea that Magnus had already turned to chaos.

My point is not that Magnus turned to (i.e., willingly chose) Chaos before the fall of Prospero but that he had fallen (unknowingly, blind to his faults, in denial about his oath-breaking betrayal) to Chaos before then. And that point is not based exclusively on Visions. Visions explicitly says that this is the case but IA talks about other powers than the Emperor (i.e., the Chaos gods) taking note of Magnus when he first "entered" the Warp. All sources agree that Magnus chose the study of the Warp via sorcery (i.e., unforgivable heresy) over loyalty to the Emperor.

@Morgrim: As I already noted, IA says Librarians were allowed after Nikaea. Visions says the Librarians were disbanded.

Gah, you people need to slow down, I spend 10 minutes looking up references while writing a post and there are 6 extra replies and I probably have to edit.

Let me just reiterate that there is no need to set aside Visions.

Could it not be that he chose knowledge of the warp out of loyalty to the Emperor, a desire to reveal the truth to his people and his Father (remember, the Emperor had very deliberately hidden his own knowledge of the Warp from all of the Primarchs)

Whilst obviously the 'wrong' thing to fdo, it could have been done with the best of intentions.

btw, this thread is solid gold, subbed ^^

@Sean: In my long post on this, I speculate that Magnus may have viewed his disobedience of the Emperor as a "higher loyalty."

I think we all agree that he was doing it with the best of intentions, yet really shouldn't have been since it backfired massively, both on him (getting the sentenced passed), on Horus (sounds like it was the bit that actually helped push him into the arms of Erebus) and the Emperor (if the gate wasn't bad enough, then Horus turned most definitely was, and if Magnus was in any way responsible that itself would have earned him a slow and grisly death had he been brought back alive and Horus defeated in the Battle of Terra).

Manchu wrote:

whatwhat wrote:No I'm hinting more at you using those quotes to backup your idea that Magnus had already turned to chaos.

My point is not that Magnus turned to (i.e., willingly chose) Chaos before the fall of Prospero but that he had fallen (unknowingly, blind to his faults, in denial about his oath-breaking betrayal) to Chaos before then. And that point is not based exclusively on Visions. Visions explicitly says that this is the case

Yes, visions. You've got one quote from an unreliable source to back it up but another...

Manchu wrote:but IA talks about other powers than the Emperor (i.e., the Chaos gods) taking note of Magnus when he first "entered" the Warp.

And this says what about Magnus unknowngly falling to chaos? The chaos gods would take notice of any major presence in the warp including the emporer, this does not indicate magnus' loyalities or fate.

Again, your rellying far too much on visions and trying to support it with weak implicit almost unrelated quotes from IA.

whatwhat wrote:I think your thoughts are echoed by all but Manchu.

Lol, fortunately facts are not determined democratically.

As for your accusations: my arguments about Magnus do not rely on Visions, although there is no reason it should not given that Visions has not been superseded in this regard. Let me draw it out as simply as I can.

(1) Magnus practiced sorcery and this caused suspicion (all sources agree)

(2) There was a meeting about this at Nikaea where it was decided that sorcery would be a crime (all source agree)

(3) Magnus had a choice to make: loyally obey the Emperor as he had promised or continue with the sorcery (all sources agree)

(4) Magnus betrayed the Emperor by choosing sorcery over loyalty (all sources agree)

Manchu wrote:

whatwhat wrote:I think your thoughts are echoed by all but Manchu.

Lol, fortunately facts are not determined democratically.

So whether or not Visions is considered an unreliable source is a matter of fact or fiction?

Can we keep with the nice and mentally stimulating debate about the fluff and avoid the boring and eyerolling personal attacks on each other? Please? I'm enjoying having the second intense thread of this nature that hasn't dissolved into a mass of flaming.

Well...there is certainly nothing of a personal nature intended on my part, if that's how it comes across.

Manchu wrote:
As for your accusations: my arguments about Magnus does not rely on Visions, although there is no reason it should not given that Visions has not been superseded in this regard. Let me draw it out as simply as I can.

(1) Magnus practiced sorcery and this caused suspicion (all sources agree)

(2) There was a meeting about this at Nikaea where it was decided that sorcery would be a crime (all source agree)

(3) Magnus had a choice to make: loyally obey the Emperor as he had promised or continue with the sorcery (all sources agree)

(4) Magnus betrayed the Emperor by choosing sorcery over loyalty (all sources agree)

You forget that Magnus' intentions were still to protect the Emporer, though foolish may it have been, through his sorcery.

For example in Flase gods, long after the Council of Nikaea Magnus enter's Horus' vision via sorcery and attempts to persuade Horus from the path of Chaos. He is actively against chaos at this point as can be seen with his arguing with Erebus in the same vision.

I think you have decided somewhere without anything to back it up that sorcery is a path to chaos and nothing else, ingoring the fact that Magnus' intentions were good.

Magnus had stumbled upon the heresy and he wasn't going to give up sorcery since he felt the emperor needed to hear his warning. His loyalties in my view were certainly to the emperor.

No worries, didn't take it that way.

Oh good. *hides the bucket of icy water* Err, is it possible to bless water in the 40k universe?

whatwhat wrote:You forget that Magnus' intentions were still to protect the Emporer, though foolish may it have been, through his sorcery.

For example in Flase gods, long after the Council of Nikaea Magnus enter's Horus' vision via sorcery and attempts to persuade Horus from the path of Chaos. He is actively against chaos at this point as can be seen with his arguing with Erebus in the same vision.

I think you have decided somewhere without anything to back it up that sorcery is a path to chaos and nothing else, ingoring the fact that Magnus' intentions were good.

Magnus had stumbled upon the heresy and he wasn't going to give up sorcery since he felt the emperor needed to hear his warning. His loyalties in my view were certainly to the emperor.

Sorry, whatwhat, I just now saw this edit.

I didn't actually forget about Magnus's intentions. The trouble is that we have to speculate on this part. All we really know is that he never agreed with Nikaea and that he saw his warning to Terra as his moment of vindication. That leaves us to ask how he reconciled his actual disloyalty toward the Emperor in continuing to practice sorcery with his self-image as a loyalist trying to stop Horus. In my long post on this subject, I suggest (speculatively, since no sources speak to this subject) that Magnus's considered his particular disobedience to be a higher form of loyalty. As he became more enraptured with Chaos through sorcery, in his own mind he saw himself as more and more loyal.

I did not decide that sorcery is the path to Chaos, actually. Outside of the 40k universe, that was decided by the people who write GW fluff. Inside of the 40k universe, that was explained to Magnus by Imperial decree and in a face-to-face confrontation with the Emperor.

Morgrim wrote:..., is it possible to bless water in the 40k universe?

Yes. The ecclesiarchy may offer this service.

Manchu wrote:I did not decide that sorcery is the path to Chaos, actually. Outside of the 40k universe, that was decided by the people who write GW fluff. Inside of the 40k universe, that was explained to Magnus by Imperial decree and in a face-to-face confrontation with the Emperor.

Where have GW stated that sorcery is the path to chaos? Sure it is outlawed by the imperium but just because something is wrong in the eyes of the imperium doesn't mean it''s chaotic. Sure it's a fine line but there is fluff with radical inquisitors, still loyal to the imperium, who use sorcery.