Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Alright, lucky in the 'they didn't get mauled' context, because it turned out to be more effective leading them on a wild goose chase than attempting to fight them to a halt.

And lucky Horus for having allies that actually did manage to keep them on a wild goose chase for so long. With that many chasing them, the Word Bearers must have had quite some skill (and/or a decent whack of chaos god favour). Although it has been established that the UM did better in straight battle and not gurrilla warfare. Each legion seemed to end up with a specialty. UM apparently follow the 'all rounders, and many feet on the ground' tactic. Simple and reliable. And another reason that steady, constant recruitment would suit them and how they would build numbers more than their brother legions.

I'm not sure that the UM needed to hunt after the WB. Think WB just popped up and attacked them when the UM got to Calth.

If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra. I think there had to be a bit of 'chase us! Chase us away from Terra!' sort of going on.

... excuse me while I purge the hilarious image of Word Bearers going 'nwah nwah' and running...

Morgrim wrote:If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra.

inorite especially given that FORTY companies of WB were in the Solar System under Sor Talgron, according to Visions of Heresy . . . although it should be noted that this book has Erebus and Kor Phaeron at Ultramar when Anthony Reynolds says in Dark Apostle that they were both at the Siege . . . but the fight against the WB seems harder than you think

Here are some snippets:

Alan Merrett wrote:Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers. (Visions p162)

Alan Merrett wrote:However, Guilliman's first priority was to stabalise the Ultramarines' situation. It as very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihiliation. (Visions p164)

There is no further mention of the Ultramarines until, moments before the Emperor boards the Venegeful Spirit, Horus learns that the Ultramarines have left Calth. Although he is surprised at their victory, he assumes they must be the biggest Loyalist force remaining and is highly anxious to mop things up before they arrive. (By comparison, he is not at all worried about the rapidly approaching Wolves and Scars!) This news becomes a key factor in his decision to lower the barge shields as a direct challenge the Emperor. It would seem therefore that the Ultramarines fought a long war within the Calth system, spending much of it recovering from the initial surprise attack and then taking apart and driving off Lorgar.

Tellingly, most of the UM and Guilliman were at Saturn before Horus ordered them to Veridian.

Manchu wrote:(5) Dorn went crazy. It's as simple as that. He was not faced with a choice between death and submission to Chaos. He could have approached the Iron Cage more sensibly--he was a Primarch general, wasn't he???--but his insanity got in the way.

Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

Manchu wrote:
(6) One objective of the Codex was to preserve integrity of geneseed. (C:SM5 p8) Guilliman basically was forcing everyone else to follow his slow recruitment policies in order to halt its degradation. The IF and their successors, for example, are zygote deficient. (The implication would seem to be that VII Legion recruited more quickly if less steadily than XIII Legion.) Even though the Ultramarines have directly and indirectly given rise to far more successor chapters than any other legion or chapter, their geneseed (barring spontaneous mutations, as in the 21st Founding) remains stable and complete.

Did i say anything about IF's having a complete variant of genesed? Its rather well known they dont.

Manchu wrote:
While the codex does not explicitly state it, it is reasonable to guess that about 50% or slightly less of the Second Founding chapters were derived from Ultramarine stock. C:SM5 (p14) says that most chapters had less than five successors while the Ultramarines had twenty three. We know of that the Space Wolves only split into two chapters and the IF split into (at least) three. Assuming that the White Scars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels likely split into five or six chapters each and that the decimated Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders were only able to split into two chapters each, that puts the Ultramarine successors at 45 - 48% of all First and Second Founding chapters.

Why not use the nice chart GW put in every marine dex?
It wasn't changed over several editions, should be stable enough to pull from it.

Dark angels = 3 ( maybe another 3 in their own dex )
White scars = 4
Space wolves = 1
Imperial Fists = 2
Blood angels = 5
Iron Hands = 2
Ultramarines = 23 ( 8 named )
Salamanders = unknown
Raven Guard = 3

Assuming we count the non-smurfs, its 28 vs 23. But remember the old disclaimer, its a M33 tome so could be incomplete.

Manchu wrote:
We do know that by M41, half of all subsequent foundings are descended directly or indirectly from Guilliman. This is in part because of the prevalance of Ultramarine successors from the Second Founding (C:SM5 p14) but more likely, given how many of the Primogenitors must have been destroyed before they could themselves split in subsequent foundings, because Adeptus Terra always favors UM geneseed when creating new chapters (C:SM5 p10). Now that I have reminded you of who actually makes the decision to found a new chapter and to do so from who's geneseed, you will be able to figure out why there are not more Unforgiven Chapters despite the stability of DA geneseed.

Remind me? Was there need to?
But sure, the high lords dislike the disobedience of the non-smurfs. Plus the DA seem more careful who to recrut and also care
to cut any ties to anything except the DA.

Manchu wrote:
Given all of this, I don't understand your insinuations of Guilliman's "influence" being forced upon everyone else. He divided his Legion into Chapters before anyone else. And even after Dorn gave in, the BT would have significantly outnumbered any other chapter. BT were the entire VII Legion, post Iron Cage, minus two thousand marines after all. The only possibly larger chapter were the Space Wolves.

Rather the entire VII legion, post siege, post cage, minus 2k. Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.
Known is the minimum size of the BT right now.

Manchu wrote:
(9) Haven't picked it up. I thought the IF Scouts story in Heroes of the Space Marines was awful.

The funny thing about this whole thread is that IF were my favorite chapter when I first got into 40k. I used to think Dorn was awesome. The Black Templars, in combination with the overwhelming awesomeness of the Space Wolves, are what changed my mind. And, as I've gotten older, I've started to think of Guilliman as what Dorn should have been. If Guilliman had been at Terra, I wonder if Horus would even have gotten into the Solar System. Attacking when he and Russ were away was the most brilliant part of Horus's strategy.

So I wasn't wrong when i got the impression your way to defend your point would make you a fine Son of Dorn.

Maybe it was the emperors plan to have the defense specialists as "home guard". Wouldn't make sense to use the UM for that.
G-Man should have organized the crusade. This would ruin the WB treachery, cause chaos can't withstand the power of order.
So I disagree with UM as "HOME GUARD".
Dorn did not so bad IMO. Don't forget the machinations of the warp creatures to cut off coms and travel. Plus the betrayal of the mechanicum. Horus was successful until he met the emperor himself. Maybe the Emperor should have cared sooner.
The arch traitors strategy looks like ambush your brothers ( RG,IH,S ) and sent off UM,SW,DA. So only 3 legios could oppose him.
And funnily, this was enough. Very brilliant strategy. 9 vs 3 and the 3 manage to keep you out until reinforcement show up.

Manchu wrote:

Morgrim wrote:If they'd only done that, the UM could have crushed them in a hurry and kept going on to Terra.

inorite especially given that FORTY companies of WB were in the Solar System under Sor Talgron, according to Visions of Heresy . . . although it should be noted that this book has Erebus and Kor Phaeron at Ultramar when Anthony Reynolds says in Dark Apostle that they were both at the Siege . . . but the fight against the WB seems harder than you think

Here are some snippets:

Alan Merrett wrote:Calth's three sister planets were being destroyed by Lorgar's ships, massive geo-nuclear strikes ripping them apart. Calth's sun was being bombarded with radiation and chemical warheads and threatening to send it supernova. The Ultramarines' fleet was scattered by a succession of hammer blow assaults from the warships of the Word Bearers. (Visions p162)

Alan Merrett wrote:However, Guilliman's first priority was to stabalise the Ultramarines' situation. It as very clear that a mortal blow had been struck against his Legion. It would require all of his strategic and tactical brilliance to rescue it from annihiliation. (Visions p164)

There is no further mention of the Ultramarines until, moments before the Emperor boards the Venegeful Spirit, Horus learns that the Ultramarines have left Calth. Although he is surprised at their victory, he assumes they must be the biggest Loyalist force remaining and is highly anxious to mop things up before they arrive. (By comparison, he is not at all worried about the rapidly approaching Wolves and Scars!) This news becomes a key factor in his decision to lower the barge shields as a direct challenge the Emperor. It would seem therefore that the Ultramarines fought a long war within the Calth system, spending much of it recovering from the initial surprise attack and then taking apart and driving off Lorgar.

Tellingly, most of the UM and Guilliman were at Saturn before Horus ordered them to Veridian.

Approaching scars?
Unlikely since they fought at the gates and reclaimed a spaceport.

Maybe say the words. Dark Angels. See?
Nothing bad happens.
Could be a nice what if.
What if the emperor didn't assault horus and the DA start to ruin the siege whilst russ goes berserk on the traitors...
With sanguinius alive and the UM closing daily, those traitors wouldn't retreat to the eye. The decision who wins would been made then and 40k would be different.

I think the WB threat was more a cultist meatshield problem. Just too many buggers swarming you to get easily rid off.

But we'll see when the UM get their book ( 2nd book ).

1hadhq wrote:Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It is rumored that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance . . . Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done Without the fire of battle to engage them Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink--the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered . . . For seven days [Dorn] resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor . . . Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove . . . While [the Iron Warrior] paused [in their fight against the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage], the Ultramrines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Pertaburo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn . . . (Index Astartes II p14, my emphases)

I think we have to keep in mind that the IA is not a very reliable source and tries to make the IF look good (which is hard under the circumstances, as you can tell from this passage) given that it does not mention Dorn's near-rebellion in the face of Codex Astartes at all.

1hadhq wrote:Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.

Alan Merrett wrote:When Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists had chanced upoin the becalmed frigate Eisenstein, and met with the loyal Capatin Garro of the Death Guard, he had ordered his warfleet to Isstvan . . . Dorn had personally escorted the loyal Garro to Terra, taking with him only his elite veteran companies. The rest of Dorn's Legion had made for Isstvan. It was a significant force of arms--over thirty thousand Space Marines aboard a fleet of seventeen battle barges and assorted cruisers, with a host of smaller supporting craft. (Visions p342)

You're right that we don't know the exact number. But even if the casualties were staggeringly high, say for the sake of argument approaching 40% or so on Terra and 60% at the Iron Cage, there would have remained a force of BT, once two thousand marines had been split from Legion VII to create the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Chapters, approaching nearly ten thousand Space Marines.

Regarding Second Founding percentages: Why bother to recount what I have already calculated when (1) you yourself know the data you're using is incomplete and (2) our approximations come out to the same number? Someone's just being difficult . . .

Remember that WB was not only in strength at Calth and not using millions of cultists (phrase used in Visions) but also was employing hordes of summoned daemons. It was a very tough war that STILL resulted in few UM casualties because of Guilliman's brilliance.

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Dorn's crazyness is just your imagination.
Provide a valid quote?

While others shaped the new Imperium, Dorn immersed himself in implacable justice. It is rumored that he saw the Emperor's death as his personal failure and his crusade as penance . . . Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fists because of what the Traitor Legions had done Without the fire of battle to engage them Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink--the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered . . . For seven days [Dorn] resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor . . . Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove . . . While [the Iron Warrior] paused [in their fight against the Imperial Fists at the Iron Cage], the Ultramrines intervened; Guilliman had decided that Pertaburo's destruction was not worth the loss of Rogal Dorn . . . (Index Astartes II p14, my emphases)

I think we have to keep in mind that the IA is not a very reliable source and tries to make the IF look good (which is hard under the circumstances, as you can tell from this passage) given that it does not mention Dorn's near-rebellion in the face of Codex Astartes at all.

1hadhq wrote:Still unknown is the size of the IF's back then.

Alan Merrett wrote:When Rogal Dorn of the Imperial Fists had chanced upoin the becalmed frigate Eisenstein, and met with the loyal Capatin Garro of the Death Guard, he had ordered his warfleet to Isstvan . . . Dorn had personally escorted the loyal Garro to Terra, taking with him only his elite veteran companies. The rest of Dorn's Legion had made for Isstvan. It was a significant force of arms--over thirty thousand Space Marines aboard a fleet of seventeen battle barges and assorted cruisers, with a host of smaller supporting craft. (Visions p342)

You're right that we don't know the exact number. But even if the casualties were staggeringly high, say for the sake of argument approaching 40% or so on Terra and 60% at the Iron Cage, there would have remained a force of BT, once two thousand marines had been split from Legion VII to create the Imperial Fists and Crimson Fists Chapters, approaching nearly ten thousand Space Marines.

Regarding Second Founding percentages: Why bother to recount what I have already calculated when (1) you yourself know the data you're using is incomplete and (2) our approximations come out to the same number? Someone's just being difficult . . .

Remember that WB was not only in strength at Calth and not using millions of cultists (phrase used in Visions) but also was employing hordes of summoned daemons. It was a very tough war that STILL resulted in few UM casualties because of Guilliman's brilliance.

Moved on from chaos straight to Ultras? Gullimans brilliance-coming from a SW...scary that.

Word bearers have some issues with the truth..maybe if we get the story from the UM POV told.

So i did recount? If you really bothered to read, the numbers of successors were clarified there.
Yes, the blurb of " what the apocrypha of skaros said " is some sort of disclaimer and I am aware of that, still this chart is
unchanged since 3 editions of wh 40k.

Ten thousand space marines arent that much. Actually codex BT hints on 7-8000 BT.
I for one, hope to see the HH series keeping its path and pouring out believable numbers for legions.
What i did hear ( Ravens flight audiobook ) in a dakka thread didn't sound good. Legions with 90k of marines? WTF.
So yes, i did read that "visions of ...stuff", but it seems to get replaced by the HH series and i would not put too much validity
into a source book for a card game.

Now Index astartes is somehow different, cause it was the collected articles of the WD printed in 4 books and providing
background for all legions.
The issue is still not there since the revelation of the loss of the brotherhood of space marines hit every single marine hard.
Wasn't IF specific. And many primarchs had a vision before they left: Corax, RUSS, vulkan....
There is exactly nothing too negative to find in the article, but this is the same for all of them.
Doesn't make it incorrect.
So the old wellknown self-sacrifical and stubborn tendencies of the IF are his issue in your book.
I am terribly sorry but i can't resist to
These traits weren't a secret.

Seems it can be read in different ways.

Does that proof the BT beeing at the edge of anything? No.
Does that proof the BT are a result of insanity? No.

So what? Dorn keeping his crusade going as trade off for codex compliance is not enough?
Must there be a "dark" secret? I know its all grimdark but even the DA secret turned out not so dark as many DA haters assumed.

The chart, though stable, represents a bare minimum of knowledge. What more is there to say?

Ten thousand Space Marines aren't that much? Tell that to Roboute Guilliman. Enjoy being purged for your heresy.

I, too, think "Raven's Flight" seems a flight of fancy when it comes to the numbers. Maybe just creative license?

IA articles are correct but missing important points. Nice attempt at evading the real problem, there.

Three words: HOVERING ON THE BRINK

BT's weirdness is no secret. They out-grimdark Chaos Marines. Congratualtions: you are finally understanding the point of this thread

Once again, little argument--lots and lots of equivocation and evasion, though!

Manchu wrote:

Ten thousand Space Marines aren't that much? Tell that to Roboute Guilliman. Enjoy being purged for your heresy.

IA articles are correct but missing important points. Nice attempt at evading the real problem, there.

Three words: HOVERING ON THE BRINK

BT's weirdness is no secret. They out-grimdark Chaos Marines. Congratualtions: you are finally understanding the point of this thread

Once again, little argument--lots and lots of equivocation and evasion, though!

To evade is your style, not mine.

1) Get me g-man 's e-mail address or phone nr and we talk. Oh wait, he can't move or speak... seems a bit one sided to me then.
2) IA is correct and not incomplete. Your points aren't there, because that would make IA incorrect.
3) hovering on the brink ..of what? Your three words lack something substantial.
4) out-grimdark chaos marines? I doubt this is possible but please tell this all those whiny bunch of chaos fans.
5) I did never miss the point, but still disagree. There is no base to claim IF could turn traitor.
6) we need more participants in this thread.

*yawn* You're not offering much sport.

1hadhq wrote:1) Get me g-man 's e-mail address or phone nr and we talk. Oh wait, he can't move or speak... seems a bit one sided to me then.
2) IA is correct and not incomplete. Your points aren't there, because that would make IA incorrect.
3) hovering on the brink ..of what? Your three words lack something substantial.
4) out-grimdark chaos marines? I doubt this is possible but please tell this all those whiny bunch of chaos fans.
5) I did never miss the point, but still disagree. There is no base to claim IF could turn traitor.
6) we need more participants in this thread.

(1) nonsequitor
(2) IA is incomplete. Already addressed that. You evaded the point.
(3) The go back up a few posts and re-read the direct quotes from Index Astartes.
(4) don't get it
(5) not arguing IF will turn trader; arguing that BT are IF twisted into Grimdark par excellence by heresy; as thread is titled "Black Templars: Legacy of Heresy"
(6) Let them come!

Manchu wrote:*yawn* You're not offering much sport.
(1) nonsequitor
(2) IA is incomplete. Already addressed that. You evaded the point.
(3) The go back up a few posts and re-read the direct quotes from Index Astartes.
(4) don't get it
(5) not arguing IF will turn trader; arguing that BT are IF twisted into Grimdark par excellence by heresy; as thread is titled "Black Templars: Legacy of Heresy"
(6) Let them come!

1 =
2 = says who? Keep on with those evasive maneuvers. Gets you nowhere.
3 = Rereading doesn't change anything. Multiple legions had to wait what their primarch comes up with.
4 = shrug
5 = trader? space marines becoming merchants?
But really. Stick with your point. Just for once. please.
6 = Hope so. OTOH, i could get you tired ( youre already at level ) and imagine a lot of unrelated stuff to post here.....

No. Have to leave myself. Breakfast in 5hours awaits....

Oh good grief, are you going to start the 'fall to chaos' argument again? I thought a vague consensus had been reached. They really do have too many similarity to the Word Bearers, and enough buttons to press and hooks to latch into that they could be manipulated into doing a few minor minor deeds for chaos, maybe bring them to the point that they can see the path sliding straight down into the Eye. It could even be argued that their mental state gives them just enough brittleness that they are a step closer to the edge than some of their brother chapters.

The huge, major gaping difference is how they'd react to this. They wouldn't fall. They wouldn't take that bait, they wouldn't follow the 'easy' path, they wouldn't be able to become servants of anything but the Emperor, it's too deeply entrenched in their very nature (and less 'what happened in the past' and more 'what happened in the past has influenced what we brainwash into our neophytes' since none of them were alive during the Iron Cage incident). Rather, if they got a hint of even a small degree of heresy in their own ranks they'd drop everything to make such a vicious internal purge that the more puritan of Inquisitors would be impressed, not caring if innocents were caught up because better to send a loyal brother to the Emperor's light than to risk a traitor lurking within. Anything greater - and I think the tipping point could be as few as a dozen or so marines - or the chapter itself having been tricked on mass (far more likely than any individual marines falling, in my opinion) and the entire chapter would implode in rather spectacular fashion. Sure, some many get caught in the resulting destruction, particularly any chapters sent to figure out what on earth happened, but it would be minor compared to what would happen internally. The Black Templars just couldn't cope.

I can see all the tattered remnants regrouping, from all spread forces, and in their pain and shame and rage trying to decide what to do. And most likely making a suicidal charge to destroy chaos, so likely pursuing a large chaos force even into the Eye of Terror in the hopes of destroying enough of the enemy, and the enemy's home bases, enough to redeem themselves. Sound familiar?

After all, blood washes away dishonour.

You're getting us back on-topic so kudos.

While I find your view pretty convincing, I do take exception to it. You talk about BT as servants of the Emperor but I'm wondering what exactly that means post-Golden Throne. It seems that the Imperium is a sprawling mess with little central authority. An astoundingly disparate mass of factions all claim to be loyal to the Emperor but practice divergent and sometimes opposing methods. (Without wanting to derail again, I'll cite the Inquisition for this point.) So we know not all can be objectively loyal to the Emperor. They're loyal to their idea of who the Emperor is, which is to say they practice a form of idolatry. The most egregious offender in this regard is the Ecclesiarchy. Anyway, you can see where I'm going here: the BT are loyal to themselves inasmuch as they're loyal to the "Emperor" that they've set up in their minds/Chapter religious traditions. So my argument is that they are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it. Wouldn't it be a very neat and tidy universe if Chaos needed your consent? Well, in the grimdark Chaos uses you whether you like it or not. This is actually why BT refuse to work with psykers at all. They're obviously very concerned about being tainted. But I think their self-righteous zeal is a potential blindspot in this regard. What more dangerous agent of Chaos could there be than one who outright refused to acknowledge his fall? Meanwhile, the blackest of Dorn's despair and rage over his "failure" at Terra will always be alive and well in the customs and practices of the Black Templars. In other words, the personality flaw of Dorn that nearly led to outright civil war, perhaps accomplishing what Horus had failed to do, is embodied by the Black Templars. The spirit of overcoming that self-pity and pride and looking with hope to the future seems to have been passed on to the Crimson Fists--just look at their valiant reaction to losing their home world. In summary, the BT are a disaster waiting to happen.

Manchu wrote:You're getting us back on-topic so kudos.

While I find your view pretty convincing, I do take exception to it. You talk about BT as servants of the Emperor but I'm wondering what exactly that means post-Golden Throne. It seems that the Imperium is a sprawling mess with little central authority. An astoundingly disparate mass of factions all claim to be loyal to the Emperor but practice divergent and sometimes opposing methods. (Without wanting to derail again, I'll cite the Inquisition for this point.) So we know not all can be objectively loyal to the Emperor. They're loyal to their idea of who the Emperor is, which is to say they practice a form of idolatry. The most egregious offender in this regard is the Ecclesiarchy. Anyway, you can see where I'm going here: the BT are loyal to themselves inasmuch as they're loyal to the "Emperor" that they've set up in their minds/Chapter religious traditions. So my argument is that they are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it. Wouldn't it be a very neat and tidy universe if Chaos needed your consent? Well, in the grimdark Chaos uses you whether you like it or not. This is actually why BT refuse to work with psykers at all. They're obviously very concerned about being tainted. But I think their self-righteous zeal is a potential blindspot in this regard. What more dangerous agent of Chaos could there be than one who outright refused to acknowledge his fall? Meanwhile, the blackest of Dorn's despair and rage over his "failure" at Terra will always be alive and well in the customs and practices of the Black Templars. In other words, the personality flaw of Dorn that nearly led to outright civil war, perhaps accomplishing what Horus had failed to do, is embodied by the Black Templars. The spirit of overcoming that self-pity and pride and looking with hope to the future seems to have been passed on to the Crimson Fists--just look at their valiant reaction to losing their home world. In summary, the BT are a disaster waiting to happen.

Pouring out such wall o text and still refusing to admit your claims of BT gone traitor?

Sorry, the only disaster is the catastrophe that befalls those who oppose the BT. But keep on.

Admit my claims of BT gone traitor? I'm confused. What do you mean?

Manchu wrote:Admit my claims of BT gone traitor? I'm confused. What do you mean?

How about this one:

"So my argument is that they are already fallen"
"are already fallen in that sense as opposed to the IF, CF,SW, Ultramarines, etc. Now this is different from being Chaos worshipers, obviously. But one does not have to willingly worship Chaos to fall to it."

i see what you did there....

The differences between chapters in their POV about the Emperor makes all of them subjectivly loyal and I would go to the point
where i consider beeing objectively loyal as nigh impossible for humans and their descendants.
Do you really try to say any of the 9 legions were objectively loyal when they lacked an emperor walking amongst them?

What I'm saying is that the SW are loyal to what the Emperor wanted them to be--his wild attack dogs. UM are loyal to what E wanted all other SM to be like: trying to make galaxy a better place for humans (which SW also go out of their way to do). BT are loyal to redeeming and defending their own honor. If humans benefit, great. If humans get in the way, they die. DA, similarly, are loyal to keeping their secret and stamping out the Fallen. If it comes to a choice between this and helping humanity, they pick the former. Understand now?

So SW drink too much and have visions what the emperor wanted then...

We'll see what the double HH books make of your idea of the intend of the emperor with his long haired unwashed sons.

Since you know his intend, maybe tell us about the 2 lost legions then?

Ok, I'll play nice.

Who is more dangerous to a normal human:
- a BA
- a BT
- a DA
- a IH
- a SW
- a WS

Now? Any given order?

This is a bit off-topic, IMO. But I'll indulge.

From most to least dangerous:

- BT: every outsider is a potential victim
- DA: humans might get in the way of their internal problems and if they do that's it for them
- IH: sympathies with Mechanicum may mean they lack sympathy with humanity (have executed innocents before)
- BA: unfortunately, black rage can take one of them at any moment--otherwise, they're alright
- WS: not really a thread, but don't go out of their way to help, either
- SW: along with Salamanders, traditionally most compassionate Legion and Chapter

1hadhq wrote:

Manchu wrote:
6) we need more participants in this thread.

Alright, I'll bite. I've been following this very interesting thread from the start, and here are my two cents, for what little they're worth.

I've spent a good bit of time weighing the available material and the arguments for and against. A couple of thoughts, before my point.

1. Obviously, any examination of the fluff of the 40k universe can be complicated by conflicting claims in various pieces of fluff from different authors and eras, even when limiting oneself to only citing canonical sources. It's largely pointless to debate the relative merits of this or that piece of canon fluff, in my opinion. In the end, that argument can run on at length and likely never be settled. Rather, it is perhaps most worthwhile to construct an argument using any and all fluff available that supports your point.

2. The 40k universe is a work of fiction that is unique in its depth and character, and likely unique again in its interpretation by any given fan. Any interpretation of the flavor and themes, or even of the history, is likely to be very subjective.

For my part, I see the beauty of the 40k universe in its myriad shades of grey. I love the way there are no truly "good guys" the way there are in so many other, more simplistic works of science fiction (or indeed, even many very mature ones). I am enchanted by the way that nearly everything tends toward the black. Because of this (which is admittedly only the 40k-verse through my personal lens) I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Furthermore, it seems readily apparent that even the Templars themselves don't believe that (else why the extreme measures take to distance themselves from the mutant and the psyker?).

I can imagine a very similar argument if we were discussing Warhammer 30k, in some parallel world where no one knew how the events of the Horus Heresy would unfold. "If there's one chapter that will never fall, it's the Word Bearers. I mean come on, look how much they love the Emperor. They worship him as a god!"

So, for what it's worth, after days and days of mulling this over I suppose I come down on Manchu's side.

Edited twice, because I'm dumb at posting.

Shane wrote:I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Man, I wish you had posted this sooner as it is pretty brilliant and captures something that I've been wanting but failing to say effectively for a while now. TBH, however, if 1hadhq ever relented in this thread . . . a little bit of my love for 40k would probably die. He's a true Black Templar, through and through.

Hehehe. I've read enough to realize how foolish it would be to think I could sway 1hadhq. My intent was more to state my thoughts as well as I could, in part as a "thank you" to both of you, to let you know that I (and presumably others) appreciate seeing such a thorough, fiery, and overall relatively civil debate. And on the internet, of all places. Who'd have thunk it?

The Black Templar are loyal to their vision of the Emperor, yes. Is it identical to what the Emperor would be were he alive? No, he'd probably end up facepalming and then ordering all chapters to sit down, shut up, and telling them this is how he wants them to behave and what they should do while muttering to himself about flawed geneseed and overzealism and grudges ten thousand years old and that making a poison specifically so it is powerful enough to get past your anti-poison organ and then consuming it is kind of missing the point. And deciding that the Ecclesiarchy is way too close to comfort to the Word Bearers and attempting to nudge them slowly to something safer, while preparing to use the Space Marines as a stick if needed, cautiously so as not to ignite yet another civil war.

Alright, being sensible now.

They are loyal to their view of the Emperor, and their view seems to be that all xenos and all who stand against the Imperium are a threat to its security and must not be allowed to harm it. Therefore they will go to great lengths to exterminate these beings. If some innocent and loyal citizens happen to be caught in the crossfire, it is unfortunate and their sacrifice should be acknowledged, but it should never make one hesitate or falter. They die and pass to the Emperor's grace, and even the lives of an entire planet is but a drop in the ocean to the Imperium as a whole. It's the old 'the death of a few to save the lives of many' argument. In that way, yes they are worse for those around them and show little care; on a broader view, they see themselves as having to do what must be done, no matter the cost.

Now, as for the chaos acts: as I said before, I do think this means they could be tricked into doing some acts that serve chaos. But they also loathe chaos with every fiber of their being, because it was chaos that the Emperor was fighting against, it was chaos that scattered the primachs and damaged the Emperor's glorious vision and plans, and most cuttingly it was chaos that corrupted half the legions, at least one third of the space marines in total (I'm accounting for some legions being bigger than others and the fact that the fallen legions still had to purge loyalists from their ranks) and shattered the power of both the crusades and of the space marines themselves, and it was chaos that rendered their beloved Emperor a shell of his former self.

This is why I think that the very instant the Black Templars learnt they had been duped into aiding those they loathe above all, all of their rage and hatred is going to immediately turn inwards. It's not that they are immune to chaos, arguable nobody is. It's that they couldn't be considered effective pawns of it. They might be walking along the edge of a knife, and not be the only chapter to be doing so, but it doesn't matter which way they fall; it will be swift, it will be bloody, and it will be over. Total fallout a few chapters, a few planets, a decent whack of stores and ships and a nasty headache for the Inquisition. There are much, much ways such a thing could otherwise turn (imagine Huron with greater numbers, his allies, and a powerful loyalty to chaos. Not good at all).

This is my feeling, at least. Perhaps 'fall' is subjective. I'm not sure if the above is a fall or self immolation.

This thread is my favorite one ever on dakka, which I realize is a little arrogant, but I really haven't seen better discussion. I think it helps that 1hadhq and I are given to slipping into the fluff perspectives sometimes. I think we're about done with it, however, unless someone were to come along and throw us for a loop on some angle we've totally missed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Before I give a detailed response, Morgrim, how would you respond to 1hadhq's danger rating challenge?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Morgrim wrote:It's not that they are immune to chaos, arguable nobody is. It's that they couldn't be considered effective pawns of it.

If I were Teentch, BT would be my favorite pawns of all time. Where's the fun in being willingly obeyed when you're the god of deceit?

Most to least, then.

Dark Angels: The worst, without a doubt. If you have seen something you shouldn't have, they will kill you, and think nothing of it if it means concealing their secret shame or discovering one of the Fallen. There aren't many chapters willing to capture and torture someone for information (not 100% sure they do this to non-marines, but I can imagine them doing so) and to kill you if you happen to see them fighting a Fallen. Especially if that fallen is wearing iconography that identifies them as being from the Dark Angel legion and/or makes sneering comments about the same.

Blood Angels: They will do much to protect you, especially if you are in a hive city under attack. The main danger is if you happen to be near the front lines and the Death Company comes at you. The main danger from them is thus friendly fire. It just happens to be rather deadly, controlled, but common friendly fire. Remove the Death Co and they'd be down with the White Scars.

Black Templars: About on par with Blood Angels, I think. They are going to protect the people of the Imperium, but given their values it is a more abstract way than a specific group of people. Well, maybe if they were the Sisters of Silence (but they're not normal). If you're a psyker, you're dead, but also not normal. If they think you're a heretic... you're in trouble; again though, I'll argue that your everyday citizen is not going to be acting in such a way that they could be accused of heresy unless they happened to be in close proximaty to someone who was. So no more dangerous than the Inquisition. Your views on how dangerous the Inquisition are may vary.

Iron Hands: For the most part, same level as White Scars. Indeed, their ties to the Mechanium may make them more in touch with some humans, since they are interacting with non-genetically modified tech priests. This is probably cancelled out by significant use of servetors. I don't think they'd look down there nose at normal humans, just that they'd respect techpriests more. So equal fifth.

White Scars: Normal marines, quite neutral to humans. They will defend a hive because they are defending resources and defeating the enemy just as much as because they are defending humans. Actually, not quite true, but the humans that they are fighting for are slightly more abstract, less individual, and thus they wouldn't go out of their way for a normal, human, unimportant individual. Neither would they harm one. The other fifth.

Space Wolves: Tend to have a rather compasionate view of humans, are probably one of the chapters that actually keep the closest ties to their own humanity, along with Salamanders. Some second founding and below probably do to, but they rarely get raised in the fluff.


And yes, I can see Tzeentch having a field day with them. But he would have to be very careful, and very restrained. Doing something like he did to the Blood Angels wouldn't work, I don't think. Again, it would be a case of never letting them find you out or figure out what you were doing, because if they do the game is up. So less being used to attack the Imperium, and more nudging them towards targets you'd rather taken out, like warbands of rival gods or eldar sticking their noses where it doesn't belong yet haven't unravelled that you're doing anything their yet. Such acts would still have to be serving the Imperium, though, just doing double duty. That does give the option of setting them up for a fall at a later date, though, and arguably GW could do that tomorrow if they chose to. Not going to happen unless they're pulling the codex, though.

I'll echo enjoying these sort of threads. I'm fond of the dark eldar one previous.

Some interesting quotations.

[The Black Templars] will mercilessly wipe out populations of worlds to expunge the sin of heresy, while the mere presence of a witch on the battlefield drives them into a rage of hate and vengeful bloodletting. (Index Astartes II p47)

So DA kill a few witness, BA (who are out of their minds) kill the odd friendly in the cross fire, but Templars burn whole worlds. Yeah, I think they go at the top of the list. The only Imperial faction that goes ahead of them on that list is the Inquisition.
back on-topic, however.

Although his captains called for a breakout, Rogal Dorn would not give the order. He refused to believe the evidence of his eyes and continued to call for one last charge or for Perturabo to face him. Unable to abandon their Primarch, the Imperial Fists prepared to die with him . . . Fortunately for Rogal Dorn, Roboute Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue . . . Rogal Dorn was a broken man. It was nineteen years before the Imperial Fists could once again go to war. They left over 400 Marines at the Eternal Fortress and every refugee carried horrific wounds. (Index Astartes I p36, my empahses)

There you have it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the Iron Hands:

The anger and hatred the Iron Hands feel toward weakness grows daily. They are increasingly doubtful of the strength and worth of their brother Chapters, becoming resigned to the fact that they alone can stamp out the deficiencies that they see besetting humanity from all sides. (Index Astartes III p49)

And just in case you think this could be interpreted to be a good thing . . .

[After re conquering the planet Shardenus and then the rest of the Contqual system t]he Iron Hands executed one in every three citizens in an intensive mass cleansing, a punishment and a warning to remain ever vigilant against the inherent dangers of weakness. (Index Astartes III p50)

If SW had been there, they would have killed one in three Iron Hands as a punishment and warning not to be such giant dickheads to the people they were supposed to protect. I can't help but think of Logan at Armageddon 1 or Tu'Shan at Armageddon 3. But in the Grimdark, everyone loves to be hurt. This mass murder apparently resulted in praise for and devotion to the Iron Hands in the Contqual system. IRL, I believe this might be called some variation on Stockholm Syndrome.

Manchu wrote:This is a bit off-topic, IMO. But I'll indulge.

From most to least dangerous:

- BT: every outsider is a potential victim
- DA: humans might get in the way of their internal problems and if they do that's it for them
- IH: sympathies with Mechanicum may mean they lack sympathy with humanity (have executed innocents before)
- BA: unfortunately, black rage can take one of them at any moment--otherwise, they're alright
- WS: not really a thread, but don't go out of their way to help, either
- SW: along with Salamanders, traditionally most compassionate Legion and Chapter

Really?
It could depend on your person. Any non-psyker/mutant is as safe with templars as can be with most space marines.
If youre part of those 2 groups, then youre dead.
DA got a bit reduced in "the hunt" since it was dismissed in the codex. Could be dangerous to know too much. But the same goes for the inquisition. Still possible to listen to reasons ( SW+DA ) to focus on the real mission.
The hands suffer from beeing ignored in C:SM and their tiny fluff insists on "flesh is weak", so if youre not fighting against
the enemy then youre a viable target for violence.
BA- we'll see how the fluff flows when the new dex hits, but IMO it will keep the impression of accidents happening ( friendly HTH ?)
The scars may not really harm someone. Rather neutral but remember they live with nomads so some hardships may not be
such thing for them.Doesn't mean lack of compassion.
Oh his woofies. Normally i could agree but I think we should not forget the drawbacks of the "wulfen" (lack of control).
Maybe accidents aren't impossible.

Manchu wrote:

Shane wrote:I feel that any argument predicated upon the sheer impossibility of the Black Templars straying is based on a premise which is faulty in the context of Warhammer 40k. No one is safe. No one is pure. There is no "greater good." So to say that the Templars' faith makes them proof against Chaos seems to me to be an argument that is flawed in its conception.

Man, I wish you had posted this sooner as it is pretty brilliant and captures something that I've been wanting but failing to say effectively for a while now. TBH, however, if 1hadhq ever relented in this thread . . . a little bit of my love for 40k would probably die. He's a true Black Templar, through and through.

The argument has the merits of proved resistance vs chaos.
Maybe too much High fantasy in my non-40k life?
Would wholeheartly agree that the "good guys" sticker really hurt the T'au. Most "greater good " threads go down because this
incompatibility with the grimdark.

Shane wrote:Hehehe. I've read enough to realize how foolish it would be to think I could sway 1hadhq. My intent was more to state my thoughts as well as I could, in part as a "thank you" to both of you, to let you know that I (and presumably others) appreciate seeing such a thorough, fiery, and overall relatively civil debate. And on the internet, of all places. Who'd have thunk it?

youre welcome.

Morgrim wrote:Most to least, then.

Dark Angels: The worst, without a doubt. If you have seen something you shouldn't have, they will kill you, and think nothing of it if it means concealing their secret shame or discovering one of the Fallen. There aren't many chapters willing to capture and torture someone for information (not 100% sure they do this to non-marines, but I can imagine them doing so) and to kill you if you happen to see them fighting a Fallen. Especially if that fallen is wearing iconography that identifies them as being from the Dark Angel legion and/or makes sneering comments about the same.

Blood Angels: They will do much to protect you, especially if you are in a hive city under attack. The main danger is if you happen to be near the front lines and the Death Company comes at you. The main danger from them is thus friendly fire. It just happens to be rather deadly, controlled, but common friendly fire. Remove the Death Co and they'd be down with the White Scars.

Black Templars: About on par with Blood Angels, I think. They are going to protect the people of the Imperium, but given their values it is a more abstract way than a specific group of people. Well, maybe if they were the Sisters of Silence (but they're not normal). If you're a psyker, you're dead, but also not normal. If they think you're a heretic... you're in trouble; again though, I'll argue that your everyday citizen is not going to be acting in such a way that they could be accused of heresy unless they happened to be in close proximaty to someone who was. So no more dangerous than the Inquisition. Your views on how dangerous the Inquisition are may vary.

Iron Hands: For the most part, same level as White Scars. Indeed, their ties to the Mechanium may make them more in touch with some humans, since they are interacting with non-genetically modified tech priests. This is probably cancelled out by significant use of servetors. I don't think they'd look down there nose at normal humans, just that they'd respect techpriests more. So equal fifth.

White Scars: Normal marines, quite neutral to humans. They will defend a hive because they are defending resources and defeating the enemy just as much as because they are defending humans. Actually, not quite true, but the humans that they are fighting for are slightly more abstract, less individual, and thus they wouldn't go out of their way for a normal, human, unimportant individual. Neither would they harm one. The other fifth.

Space Wolves: Tend to have a rather compasionate view of humans, are probably one of the chapters that actually keep the closest ties to their own humanity, along with Salamanders. Some second founding and below probably do to, but they rarely get raised in the fluff.


And yes, I can see Tzeentch having a field day with them. But he would have to be very careful, and very restrained. Doing something like he did to the Blood Angels wouldn't work, I don't think. Again, it would be a case of never letting them find you out or figure out what you were doing, because if they do the game is up. So less being used to attack the Imperium, and more nudging them towards targets you'd rather taken out, like warbands of rival gods or eldar sticking their noses where it doesn't belong yet haven't unravelled that you're doing anything their yet. Such acts would still have to be serving the Imperium, though, just doing double duty. That does give the option of setting them up for a fall at a later date, though, and arguably GW could do that tomorrow if they chose to. Not going to happen unless they're pulling the codex, though.

I'll echo enjoying these sort of threads. I'm fond of the dark eldar one previous.

Interesting order of threats.

As posted before., BA are renown to have even space marines refuse to fight alongside.
Still some good points about the others.

From the alphabetical order to my list:

- BA ( black rage, red thirst, upcoming rage USR! )
- DA ( capturing , accidents )
- BT ( danger rather focused on 2 groups but colletaral damage could be martyrs )
- IH ( lack the compassion, focused on logic )
- SW ( wulfen )
- WS ( least dangerous )


The point with agents misguiding forces isn't BT specific and can hit any force. Serving 2 purposes at once means both benefit.
As long as the emperor and mankind benefit, any action could be sanctioned. Look at the HH series. Killing off whole empires if they
do not comply isn't news.

Added reply to Manchu:
Since we all know that space marines will burn whole worlds if they are beyond salvation, where is the point with BT?
Additionally, quoting only 50% tends to ignore the context. G-Man didn't want to risk Dorn to kill perturabo.
Yes IH got only those fluff bit. A case of lack of background.

Unlike BA in the Black Rage, SW have some control over the Wulfen state--both in terms of entering it and when they are in it. Also, most SW completely overcome the Curse and are never subject to it after initiation. Besides the Black Rage/Red Thirst problem, BA are not a bad chapter at all. Sanguinius was an awesome Primarch and is still revered around the Imperium as a saint. Unlike DA, Iron Hands, and BT, BA have no doctrine or agenda that would set them at odds with civilians. That is why I put BA below those Chapters.

Quoting out of context? That's outright dishonest and insulting after all the trouble I've gone to. The word-for-word quote is provided in context. I have assumed that you have not been quoting sources (despite constantly demanding that I should do so) because you did not want to be burdened with translating German into English and resulting arguments. But you ought to be a bit more respectful given how compliant I have been. I'm not actually making this stuff up. It's in canonical sources. You're counter-argument is growing weaker and weaker, I think.

The Iron Hand fluff is what it is. They're heartless inhuman bastards who think they're better than other Marines much less regular humans.

SM may burn a world "beyond salvation" but BT do it to "purge the sin of heresy." That's not the same thing as "beyond salvation"--that has the ring of punishment to it, especially in light of the rest of the quote (Herr Kontext!) about a "rage of hate and vengeful bloodletting."

Manchu wrote:

Quoting out of context? That's outright dishonest and insulting after all the trouble I've gone to. The word-for-word quote is provided in context.

The Iron Hand fluff is what it is. They're heartless inhuman bastards who think they're better than other Marines much less regular humans.

SM may burn a world "beyond salvation" but BT do it to "purge the sin of heresy." That's not the same thing as "beyond salvation"--that has the ring of punishment to it.

There was no offense meant, sorry. Did get the impression such marks => ..... show where cuts are and I don't think these cuts
are neccessary or supporting the point. My apologies to get it across as accusation of rewording.
Please mind that cuts tend to left something out.

Heartless inhuman => ad mech Close ties have their drawbacks.

Punishment is always part of the doctrine of the adeptus astartes.

Yes, the ellipses do indicate that I have left out parts, sometimes whole paragraphs on the same page, because I don't really feel like re-typing an entire codex or Astartes entry when those parts are not relevant to the quote. But you have the same sources so you can look up what I'm leaving out. Using ellipses is being honest, not misquoting, quoting out of context, or otherwise deceiving.

Heretics, traitors, mutants, witches, and aliens require punishment. Civilians that do not fall into those categories do not. Any other view is not from the Codex Astartes or even the Emperor but rather the particular neurosis of an unbalanced chapter.