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This is something I've thought about for a long time and posted about in other threads. But I think it's about time that this became it's own discussion.

It seems to me that by the end of the Horus Heresy Rogal Dorn was fairly ripe for falling to Chaos. I honestly think that he was teetering pretty close to the edge when he nearly went to war over the Codex Astartes. Actually, I think that he broke down at that moment. The trauma of "losing" the Emperor must have been a terrible blow to the sanity of this ultra-loyalist. And that was merely the final blow of a long and ideal-shattering war against fully half of his own brother Primarchs. When Guilliman demanded that he surrender his Legion, the only tie he retained to the glorious dreams of the Great Crusade, he was willing for a time to stand against the remaining loyalists and tear the galaxy apart again--and this after he attempted to lead the Imperial Fists into a penitential suicide against the Iron Warriors. These events, had they transpired, may very well have been enough to finally undo the already crippled Imeprium. At the last moment, Dorn backed down and accepted Guilliman's Codex therey averting disaster. But what price did he pay?

In my view, the man who was Dorn died in that acquiescence. To be more precise, I think he divided his own personality up into the post-Second Founding chapters. For himself, he kept only his total and uncompromising loyalty to the Emperor, which remains the signal feature of the Imperial Fists. He funneled the aspirations he once held for the future of Mankind into the character of the noble Crimson Fists. But he poured the dark and raging aspect of himself, his burning hatred for the traitors and his icy resentment toward Guilliman, into the Black Templars. Of all the active Space Marine formations, the Black Templars most resemble a pre-heresy legion. Specifically, they most resemble what the Seventh Legion was like . . . except stripped of any hint of the optimism and idealism of the Great Crusade. Ironically, the Black Templars represent the antithesis of what the Emperor and his loyal servant Dorn set out to accomplish on the Great Crusade. They embody endless war waged with the zeal of religious fanaticism, the abandonment of all hope. I think the innermost source of their hatred is self-loathing born of the knowledge that their inception lies in the fall of their progenitor--the knowledge that Dorn was only able to save himself by sacrificing himself and splitting whatever they once were as a part of him out of his being. They are his best loved but most unlovely children, the ones who most resemble he who hates and fears himself. They are orphans of a father that abandoned them out of a love so intense that it became indistinguishable from hate, or perhaps vice versa, and in that same act abandoned himself.

How easily might the Templars fall to Chaos if they ever gave so much as an inch to the temptation of the Warp? I would bet it'd make the Word Bearers blush.

I dont see them fallin right in to choas cause they despise pykers so much that they kill them on sight if possible. With out pykers to open the warp and provide a way for deamons to get at the Templars minds i dont see them goin. Khrone would be the prime canidate to corupt them but they hate pykers so much i dont see it happening.

That's kind of my point, Orkfantic. The BT hate the psykers so much because they know they can't deal with the temptation in any way but by waging absolute war against them.

Honestly I could see them falling, all they'd need is a push in the right direction. I don't even think it would need to be that strong of a push, they are at the peak of zealousness, almost to the teetering point of breaking and going over the edge. How they'd act after the fall I don't know, I'm not sure they'd fall in with the other legions. Perhaps they'd just set out to end everything.

I agree entirely, Stynier. My first inclination is that they'd go all Word Bearer but nihilism would be the more likely outcome. These guys seem poised to set off the next heresy. After all, they're already totally insane.

Despite the fact that they're teetering, I don't think that anything internal would be quite enough to tip them over. It's almost as if their very fanaticism is what they are desperately clinging to as their life line. And they know it. Should they go over too far, I think the result would be tearing themselves apart, more of an implosion; they may take a few chapters and planets down with them, but it would not be a fall to true chaos as much as sheer annihilation. Any survivors would likely be emotionally crippled and either fight like wild beasts and be killed by brother astartes from other chapters, or so completely numb that they wouldn't resist as they were led off, likely by the =I= but possibly another chapter (they seem to have the whole 'better to be imprisoned by your brothers than end up in such a state' mentality, I've noticed).

It strikes me in a way similar to Batman; he knows that he's on the edge, and that he's only a step from falling. If he gives in and kills, he won't be able to stop himself.


As for what could trigger the collapse of the Black Templars... well, should the Emperor die they almost certainly would. If there is another civil war similar to the Horus Heresy they would possibly do so to, or otherwise fling themselves in the way in a suicide mission (ala the Iron Cage). If someone tried forcefully reigning them in, trying to curb their fanatic tendancies, that could work too. I suspect that if something managed to destroy their brother chapters (Crimson and Imperial Fists) they may end up on a roaring rampage of revenge, firmly believing that they are doing the right thing and completely uncaring of collateral damage (how did they react to the Crimson Fists nearly getting wiped out? Is it actually stated anywhere?) Actually... I think that 'we are doing the right thing and you should not get in our way or we will destroy you' attitude is key. If chaos can get them along a path where they are thinking that, with the result being destruction, they're doomed. Think the Maelstrom incident.

Good Batman analogy, M. I like your image of other Astartes needing to take them down. Who could do the job? Well, it'd take Superman to reign in Batman but I don't think the Ultramarines would be up to the task. Seems to me it'd be Space Wolves or no one. Especially now that we're finding out Empra set up the Wolves to hunt out renegade Astartes. No doubt, Fists would try.

I don't think the Emperor's death would be enough. Their fanaticism has sped up enough in the last ten thousand years to be moving on its own momentum by this point. Your other scenarios leave me similarly unmoved (although their reaction to the CFs' plight would be interesting--my bet is they didn't care). I think it would take an internal heresy, something like what the Inquisition has to deal with in their "radicals."

I doubt it.

Whilst your points make sense, I believe that the Black Templars hold their faith closer than anything else. So angry and broken by the loss of the Emperor are they that they hold on to the ideals of the crusade, in order to keep themselves from falling apart into raging mad lunatics.

You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

I dont think so either. I mean to be dumb enough to do the same thing for thousands of years after the HH when its the fashionable thing to sit in a fotress monastry and get shot at. Nah seriously though I'm certain they're faithful. I mean they dont have any gifts from chaos or anything. So despite your well thought out and interesting points, they are not chaos manipulated or anything

Seems we need to save mr Manchu from this chaos influence he was exposed to....


The Templars arent at the edge.
They are far from it. Their faith protects them. As was shown in the heresy, faith in the emperor may even allow a
normal human to repell demons.
Crusading " knights in space" will never fall.

Maybe one is jealous since this " wolf of fenris " incident?

Back on topic.
Dorn founded the templars from his most loyal warriors.
Did you read codex BT or are you just assuming from general fluff?

The BT still rampage through the galaxy, hunting down heretics and traitors, killing of the filthy xenos.
There is nothing in the Imperial hierarchy that controls them. Administratum doesnt even have their numbers.
So who should corrupt them? Officials? Psykers? None of them have anything to say......

Why should a Templar turn? Its already his job to fight and die. There is nothing to gain from the warp.
Still funny how some believe its a worthy goal to change sides.

The BT are fanatics. But nothing hints at them beiing dumb.
Pure hate
Pure rage
Faith in our glorious lord

and payloads of annihilated traitors , heretics and whitches plaster their path....

Sometimes even the most puritanical of Inquisitors falls into the folly of attempting to turn the power of the Archenemy against itself. As usual, 1hadhq, your faith makes you blind to the true dangers of Chaos and therefore all the more vulnerable . . . just as the Templars might also be if they ever slipped even but a little from their total prohibition of the use of psychic powers. One only need look to the organization of the Templars (yes, I have read their Codex) to notice their heterodox tendencies. Rather than submitting to the Codex, which has overhwelmingly preserved the loyalty of the Astartes for ten thousand years, the BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

Manchu wrote:You say you disagree ("I doubt it") but sound like you agree (". . . to keep themselves from falling apart into raging madmen") so could you extrapolate a bit more?

Certainly.

They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

1hadhq wrote:
The BT still rampage through the galaxy, hunting down heretics and traitors, killing of the filthy xenos.
There is nothing in the Imperial hierarchy that controls them. Administratum doesnt even have their numbers.
So who should corrupt them? Officials? Psykers? None of them have anything to say......

Funny, I thought that was exactly what the Great Crusade did... except there, at least, the Emperor could reign the Astartes in (mostly).

Manchu wrote:The BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

This is interesting. They are blatantly worshiping the Emperor, while most revere him as their ultimate father and the perfect warrior. Funny, the Word Bearers did the same thing...

Cryonicleech wrote:They have that angry, raging potential in them, to be sure. However, remember that they hold the Emperor above all else. It would not only be against their teachings to go against the Emperor, but the Templars themselves would not go against their Emperor. Rather, were they to finally surrender to the anger and rage within, they would probably do so not in the name of Chaos, but to end the nightmare of failure and grief they feel so deeply within themselves.

So, in essence, attacking everybody, Chaos, The Imperium, whoever is close enough for them to beat up.

I agree with this, for the most part. I don't think they'd go straight to chaos. I'm not entirely sure they'd end up going to chaos at all, at least not as a cohesive whole. Destroying anything and everything around them, including the chapters rushed there to stop them? Definitely. It would be suicide by cop, they'd be unable to destroy themselves, they'd force others to do it for them and possibly welcome the relief. Almost as a last act of penance.

@Morgrim & Cryonicleech: You don't have to embrace Chaos to fall to it (that seems to be my old nemesis 1hadhq's assumption). Consider, for example, the Thousand Sons, the Alpha Legion, or more recently the Soul Drinkers . . .

True, true.

But what the Thousand Sons, Alpha Legion and to some extent Soul Drinkers did was go against the Emperor. Over time, they learned to embrace and accept Chaos.

But the Black Templar would not accept Chaos. They wouldn't even fall to it. Merely, the accumulated anger and grief of the chapter would force them to end their lives, so stricken with grief and rage that they would just kill themselves, no longer willing to bear the great duty and shame they do. They wouldn't fight for their own survival, in fact, they would actively go forth to end their existence.

The Templars are simply that- Templars. Their fanatacism and zeal, I deem, would simply cause a blue screen of death for them, should the 'accepted norm' of a galaxy of slaughter in the name of the Emperor stop, for any reason. Even if the Emperor himself sat back up, I reckon they would have immense trouble adapting their sheer bloodlust.

but that's my humble opinion. These are the guys who simply charge when they lose a squad member- not even Orks are quite that mad. These guys are only half a step away from being Khorne Berserkers, in that sense. Do keep in mind the Emperor never wanted to be deified, or really even revered, and only faith keeps them strong, and if that were removed....

Manchu wrote:Sometimes even the most puritanical of Inquisitors falls into the folly of attempting to turn the power of the Archenemy against itself. As usual, 1hadhq, your faith makes you blind to the true dangers of Chaos and therefore all the more vulnerable . . . just as the Templars might also be if they ever slipped even but a little from their total prohibition of the use of psychic powers. One only need look to the organization of the Templars (yes, I have read their Codex) to notice their heterodox tendencies. Rather than submitting to the Codex, which has overhwelmingly preserved the loyalty of the Astartes for ten thousand years, the BT continue to live in the past or rather a twisted and perverted vision of the past. Their crusade is not the Great Crusade. Theirs is a quest of personal redemption through personal vengeance. It reminds me of the dangerous introspection of the Dark Angels except it is dressed up in a religious fanaticism that the Emperor Himself would surely never recognize or countenance.

I am not blind ( but remember justitia ....) Instead walking in the emperors light spares you from stumbling and falling...
So no, they know the dangers of chaos since they have seen them at the palace gates of terra itself.
Sadly have to see you falling to the lies of the "twisted word bearers", a crusade has nothing to do with personal
redemption in case of the BT. They follow their orders, given by their primarch.
And the false assumption, codex gullymansis would save anyone, youre wrong on this. Most renegades are
former codexlovers... Will be funny when GW finally reveals the UM as the real enemy.

Where was I?
Oh, Dark angels. There common usage of robes may hint on some self-hate ( does this word exist?),
but they are still loyal ( a bit xenophobic too ) and will not fall because they know the face of the archenemy now.
Against the naive Lion, maybe a small chance to ruin the legion was there, but things have changed.

Again, the truth prevails over the lies of the twisted word bearers.

Plus when our ( yes, you cant leave his service Manchu.... ) emperor willl finally rise again ( read my sig )
those mislead to venerate him as a god still find his mercy and will be allowed to spent their lives in battle.

Manchu wrote:@Morgrim & Cryonicleech: You don't have to embrace Chaos to fall to it (that seems to be my old nemesis 1hadhq's assumption). Consider, for example, the Thousand Sons, the Alpha Legion, or more recently the Soul Drinkers . . .

old nemesis....what? I am not that old....

And I do not hunt you down ( as a Nemesis would ), just attempting to save your soul.
Where is EF to help me a bit here?

Choas needs your consent to get you. May be forgotten in the age of strife but still.. refute it and chaos has no power. Magnus did embrace choas, the alphas did never know whats going on and the soul drinkers were doomed
by their former librarian...no resistance equals commencing defeat.

Chaos certainly does not need your consent, only your weakness. That's why untrained psykers are so dangerous. They don't "let" the daemons through--the daemons rip through them without ever having to ask, if their minds are not strong enough.

AS for serving the Emperor, my heart first and foremost always belongs to His Divine Majesty, His beloved daughters, and the mighty Sky Warriors of Fenris. I actually despise Lorgar and the Word Bearers but I think you almost need to despise them to really get a good feeling for playing them enjoyably at the casual level. They're despicable bad guys after all. There's nothing to love about them, although plenty that's grotesquely facinating.

Back on-topic, my thesis regarding the Black Templars is that they are the darkest legacy of Rogal Dorn. They represent his struggle with his deepest and most dreadful temptations--the temptations that nearly led him to sacrifice his legion in suicidal penance and then to almost reignite civil war between the remaining loyalists. They remain loyal only inasmuch as they are fanatically faithful--but should that faith snap . . . they would fall upon the Imperium with all the terror of a Black Crusade. That's an ironic phrase when you think about it in this context, no? Like the Unforgiven (who remain unforgiven thanks to their own obsessive guilt, for which they are willing to disregard the needs of mankind), the Templars are keeping a nasty secret. Unlike the Dark Angels and their successors, however, not even the Templars seem aware of the secret they are keeping.

I fail to see the secret there.

The Templars are a bunch of stubborn crusaders.
( could be their heritage,or maybe the original inspiration GW has drawn from ).
They will obey every order of the emperor without any questions.
Stand firm where others falter in unswerving faith.

Only madmen snap. As said before, the zeal of the templars isn't insanity.
Would you claim the wulfen and their fury as mad enough to turn to chaos? NO?
Would you claim the blood rage of the sons of the angelic primarch as mad enough to turn? NO?
Would you claim the sisters acts of faith as madness? NO?
Sorry this "madness argument" epically fails.
Because BT aren't crazed berzerkers. They still feel the battle lust, which is inbreed into every astartes.

The geneseed effect your aiming at, is a self-sacrificial attitude.
If the impossible happens, those templars would do a fine "kamikaze" last stand.
But thats not different from a BA in the deathcompany, a SW finally turning into a wulfen completly or any other
marine moving over such point of no return line.

Again, no "ultrablack" crusade for you.

And if youre point is the emprah, something alonside "seppuku" wouldnt be hard to imagine too.

BT do not sacrifice others.

The secret is that Dorn very nearly went nuts, or actually did for a little while, and only managed to stave it off by exorcising the worst aspects of his own tortured and broken down psyche--which then became the motive force behind the Black Templars through the personalities of his most fanatically loyal and equally nutty lieutenants--preeminently Sigismund, their first High Marshal. You can't really compare Dorn's more fanatical sons to Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or even Sisters of Battle. None of these groups have ever walked the knife-edge of outright betrayal as the Imperial Fists did in the wake of the Heresy.

Sure?

Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...
Its clear that Sanguinius sons had enough braincells left to gather any troublemaker in the deathcompany..
Its a fact that no templar ever turned.....

But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

IMO, youre still wrong on the BT's motives......

Although it wasn't betrayal. It was his word against Gulliman's, and nothing there to indicate either was right. And the Imperial Fists were hardly the only ones to protest. Dorn backed down because he was still reeling from the fate of the Emperor and not being able to stop it, of not being able to help his brother Sanguinious, of not understanding just how his fallen brothers could do what they did. And possibly from having to first defile his work on the defenses of Terra and then watching them get torn down.

The Imperium was still in turmoil, and he backed down because he didn't want to make it worse and was doubting his own judgement. And then he went into a period of rather brutal self torture to lessen his feelings of guilt, and dragged the rest of his legion along with him. The founding members of the Black Templars had been through the siege of Terra, the self flagellation of the Iron Cage, and were openly admitted as being the most fanatical of the lot. It didn't have to be Dorn excising the darkest parts of his psyche. By then, the baton had already been passed, and there was little he could have done about it.

i would respectfully agree with 1hadhq. the black templars are so steadfast in their faith and the rightousness of threir cause that the would self destruct before succumbing to Chaos. a few notes:
1) the loyalty of the Alpha Legion is and unless GW Ends the 40k story arc, forever shall be up in the air.
2) Who the heck can claim what the Emperors ultimate goal was? he might have claimed to be unwilling to be deified, but i highly doubt he can complain. whos to say that wasn't all part of the plan?
back to the point: i honestly believe that in the end, the black Templars would be the last of the Astartes that would fall. they are too steadfast in their faith in the Emperor. now if His Holiness were to fall under the sway of the ruinous powers, yeah sure.

What if their fall wasn't something of their choosing, rather something forced upon them by the Inquisition, who lets be honest are more than willing to turn on the Black Templars in a heart beat. When they fall it may not be chaos worship that they fall into, but perhaps they would just become nihilistic renegades. The Imperium cares not whether you follow chaos or are just renegade they smack the same label on you.

1hadhq wrote:Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...

These are both misleading statements. The first underscores your misunderstanding of Chaos and the second . . . sometimes i don't know how you can describe yourself as a loyalist. :shakes head:

1hadhq wrote:But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

Not following the Codex is not itself a betrayal. Threatening to start a civil war in the wake of Horus Heresy over it and then deceiving others into thinking you accept it only to perpetuate the Legion system (modified to be even less controllable, of course) that was the main issue of the civil war . . . that's betrayal. That's the pride and arrogance of Rogal Dorn, embodied by the Black Templar--the chink in the armor of faith that the Ruinous Powers tirelessly seek out in the righteous. The only thing that stands between the Black Templar and their fall is their psychopathic "faith" (in what, pray tell?) that seems much, much more fragile to me than it seems to others. If Horus could fall . . . if even Dorn could nearly turn on his brothers, why do you think mere space marines--no matter what color their armor--are immune to the ravages of temptation?

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Its said that the sisters lost a convent to chaos....
Its also said that some great companies of Russ boys are missing...

These are both misleading statements. The first underscores your misunderstanding of Chaos and the second . . . sometimes i don't know how you can describe yourself as a loyalist. :shakes head:

1hadhq wrote:But good to know, opposing gullymans scriptures is betrayal in your book,,

Not following the Codex is not itself a betrayal. Threatening to start a civil war in the wake of Horus Heresy over it and then deceiving others into thinking you accept it only to perpetuate the Legion system (modified to be even less controllable, of course) that was the main issue of the civil war . . . that's betrayal. That's the pride and arrogance of Rogal Dorn, embodied by the Black Templar--the chink in the armor of faith that the Ruinous Powers tirelessly seek out in the righteous. The only thing that stands between the Black Templar and their fall is their psychopathic "faith" (in what, pray tell?) that seems much, much more fragile to me than it seems to others. If Horus could fall . . . if even Dorn could nearly turn on his brothers, why do you think mere space marines--no matter what color their armor--are immune to the ravages of temptation?

Hell bent on insulting the templars much?

Lets remind our "ally" of the SW ( again, grimnar or blackheart is your liege?) that his primarch stood alongside dorn and vulkan in the debate. Dorn was a stubborn soldier, not a deceiver.
Makes me sad to watch your futile attempts to seed doubt between the loyal astartes on behalf of your insane masters from the warp.

The issue of chaos with me is, i know them. Remember, know thy enemy doesn't include join the side of the eternal loosers. Ruinous powers means just what it says, they ruin whoever joins them.

Seems i can accept the single sister that fell and also the fall of more sisters ( which i still doubt ),
and at the same time the betrayal of the space wolfs described in the choas dex, where a ship was lost
to the tyrant of badab isnt a personal offence to me even if i would deem it a lie.

OT:
I can field 800 marines at his command. And i can prove it too.
Where are all these self proclaimed loyal space wolves? Missing them in modelling&painting, super-survivor,
show off, and some other..threads.
Keep on doubting what I am....but this works both ways

BOT:
Find me a templar that turned against his brethren.

See?

A templar is a humble warrior, not a overconfident fool like horus.....
BTW, fascinating choice.

For one who fancies himself loyal you sure do take Chaos propaganda to heart. As I recall the capture of the Wolf of Fenris was entirely told from the perspective of Blackheart's men. Which would make it a one sided false truth, that a loyalist such as yourself should disregard. Maybe your jealousy of the Space Wolves accomplishments has blinded you?

BrotherStynier wrote:For one who fancies himself loyal you sure do take Chaos propaganda to heart. As I recall the capture of the Wolf of Fenris was entirely told from the perspective of Blackheart's men. Which would make it a one sided false truth, that a loyalist such as yourself should disregard. Maybe your jealousy of the Space Wolves accomplishments has blinded you?

Oh, i do accept codex fluff as canon.
Yes, the bad one too.

And which accomplishments of the hiding sons that ashame Russ should I be jealous of?

What I see here ( OP ) is a bunch of lies from a chaos follower in disguise as Space wolf.

Every loyal astartes should disregard the falsehoods of the sons of lorgar.

I take it as canon as well, yet it could still be seen as one sided propaganda.

Perhaps their part in the First War for Armageddon or the majorities, steadfast defense of humanity, particularly when others simply cast them aside.

I do not see a bunch of lies in the OP, simply known truths about Dorn and plausible speculation about his actions and what drove him after the heresy.