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1) welcome back

2) youre still wrong about the motives of the templars

3) the space wolves are under suspicious investigation by the inquisition . You could find this in the SW-codex

4) the vision of the emperor wasn't accomplished, but the ultramarines didn't even touch this goal too.

5) instead of rebuilding the imperium, EVERY legion (except the ultras) was traitor hunting.

6) the timeline had mattered, but since youre bound to prove without proof we can drop this if it gets the thread forward.

7) no legion was free of problems, some had severe issues , others just light tendencies.

8) really nice quote from the coming double HH books, looking forward to read.
Could change some things....

9) as the main reason of the emperor to create 20 different legions may be unknown to us forever, it is a hint that
diversity could be one of his goals. Plus synergy of strengths.

10) the templars won the super survivor => so they will win the galaxy in his name..

(1) Thanks--belated Happy New Year to you!

(2) BT motive = make up for Dorn's, and thus their own, "failures"; what's wrong about that?

(3) meaningless; even the battle (I think) you're referring to shows how fractious and irrelevant the Inquisition is relative to itself concerning the question of loyalty

(4) Ultramar is evidence of Guilliman's loyalty to the Emperor's vision; the Black Templars are evidence that Dorn either misinterpreted or turned against that vision; you think I am saying the BT will turn but a better way of putting it is that they are a betrayal as they already are

(5) UMs also hunted traitors; Guilliman actually led the whole effort

(6) I thought it was (a) crazy Dorn nearly dies at the Iron Cage, (b) Guilliman saves Dorn, (c) Guilliman presents Codex Asatrtes, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war BUT, taking your word for it, Index Astartes has it as (a) Guilliman presents Codex Astartes, (b) crazy Dorn nearly dies at Iron Cage, (c) Guilliman saves Dorn, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war. Either way, my point about the BT (they are Dorn's crazy, unrepentant children) stands.

(7) Agreed. Dark Angels were and still are the worst. Well, BT may be worse than them because BT are delusional. At least the DA know that their own private vendetta means more to them than serving the Emperor. BT think their private vendetta = serving the Emperor.

(8) I hope they are great. Nervous about McNeil's book as Mechanicum was awful, IMO, especially when compared to Abnett's Titanicus. Also look forward to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's The First Heretic and James Swallow's Nemesis. I really hope Nemesis will feature Sisters of Silence and maybe even Garro.

(9) Right, we'll probably never know. But I don't think He made a mistake in doing so or that he was not aware of the problem of genetic instability. I think the "flaw" was probably built in so that the Legions could never self-perpetuate at their pre-Heresy strengths. If one or several turned, the geneseed would eventually erode past usefulness. Unfortunately, the gifts of Chaos turned out to be a perfect supplement to this corruption . . .

(10) No comment.

Manchu wrote:(1) Thanks--belated Happy New Year to you!

(2) BT motive = make up for Dorn's, and thus their own, "failures"; what's wrong about that?

(3) meaningless; even the battle (I think) you're referring to shows how fractious and irrelevant the Inquisition is relative to itself concerning the question of loyalty

(4) Ultramar is evidence of Guilliman's loyalty to the Emperor's vision; the Black Templars are evidence that Dorn either misinterpreted or turned against that vision; you think I am saying the BT will turn but a better way of putting it is that they are a betrayal as they already are

(5) UMs also hunted traitors; Guilliman actually led the whole effort

(6) I thought it was (a) crazy Dorn nearly dies at the Iron Cage, (b) Guilliman saves Dorn, (c) Guilliman presents Codex Asatrtes, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war BUT, taking your word for it, Index Astartes has it as (a) Guilliman presents Codex Astartes, (b) crazy Dorn nearly dies at Iron Cage, (c) Guilliman saves Dorn, (d) Dorn nearly starts civil war. Either way, my point about the BT (they are Dorn's crazy, unrepentant children) stands.

(7) Agreed. Dark Angels were and still are the worst. Well, BT may be worse than them because BT are delusional. At least the DA know that their own private vendetta means more to them than serving the Emperor. BT think their private vendetta = serving the Emperor.

(8) I hope they are great. Nervous about McNeil's book as Mechanicum was awful, IMO, especially when compared to Abnett's Titanicus. Also look forward to Aaron Dembski-Bowden's The First Heretic and James Swallow's Nemesis. I really hope Nemesis will feature Sisters of Silence and maybe even Garro.

(9) Right, we'll probably never know. But I don't think He made a mistake in doing so or that he was not aware of the problem of genetic instability. I think the "flaw" was probably built in so that the Legions could never self-perpetuate at their pre-Heresy strengths. If one or several turned, the geneseed would eventually erode past usefulness. Unfortunately, the gifts of Chaos turned out to be a perfect supplement to this corruption . . .

(10) No comment.

2) they didn't "fail"...

3) dare to try it? Looking forward how far Manchu runs before they get you...

4) ultramar is testament of gully-mans organisation talent, but rather weak in showcasing the emperors vision.

5) g-man didn'T lead the primarchs went a bit on their own.

6) and still they don't feel unloved... Maybe only a templar understands a templar...wait. Sisters aren't that different.

Could it be...

..the wolfies jealous of the templar/sister joined forces..

7) So its now the DA? I see another thread..

The funny part is, there is no private vendatta cause templars have no privacy.

8) I think the wolves have some silent sisters around if I remember the cover correct.

Agreed we need more about the legions and less "fillers" like heroes of the space marines.

9) chaos is imperfection in itself. Only able to change, unable to create.

The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amoral) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

1hadhq wrote:The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

Sigged.

Manchu wrote:(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amoral) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

2)

3) ok, 40k cinematic needs the struggle IMO.

4) so is it true, everyone wants to be a smurf? Didn't expect that. When will fenris change to ultramar II?

5) Can't agree here, IIRC the primarchs ran their legions independantly from gully-man.

The ultras did the fighting to allow the other legios to rebuild. Doesn't imply that gully-man had any power over
the other legios. IMO rather a council with G-man as leader.

But I do agree that gully-man would be the better choice as warmaster from a rationale POV.
Horus was chosen as "most beloved son" and possibly as superior diplomat.
But G-man would have dealt with the bureaucrats easily and freed his brothers to do the fighting.
Bad mistake to have glory hog horus as warmaster.

6) 10k years may erase knowledge a bit.

7) but the DA have solved one of their problems already: different recrutement sources instead of clandestine rivalries. If we take the "wolf of fenris" ( part of chaos and sw dex ) as example,
how would grimnar react to treachery?
Calling a great hunt? Oh the similarities.....

But remember, ruleswise, the hunt is gone. As is Cypher and the fallen.

8) Liked the SoS from their first appearance in Visions of..., and I am also curious what happened.

Was their duty to man the black ships, later SoB took over. Maybe some left?

9) One can also be mislead to believe he served chaos when all is just a lie.

Very interesting.

I find it funny how Dorn and the Imperial Fists have spawned my favourite (Crimson Fists) and least favourite (Black Templar) 'loyal' Space Marine chapters.

I don't know if it was their sudden insertion in 3rd edition or what, but something has always bothered me about them.

Too me, they always just seemed two-dimensional. It's nice to see a different take that gives them a bit more depth.

Manchu wrote:(2) That's why I put it in quotation marks. Dorn believed he did fail and that the loyalty/honor of his Legion was at stake. Hence the attack on the Iron Warriors. BT carry on this need to prove themselves by prosecuting endless wars of attrition.

(3) I think you'll find my views a bit nearer to Inquisitorial (galaxy is unfathomably amor
al) and yours a bit nearer to a Guardsman's (there is struggle between good and evil).

(4) Ultramar is a resplendent seat of human mastery over the terror of the galaxy. It is what the Emperor wanted the entire galaxy to be like.

(5) Guilliman directed the entire Imperium at that point including the other decimated Legions--most obviously the Iron Hands, Salamanders, and Raven Guard, which were the most severely damaged. It stands to reason he would have also coordinated the actions of the White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Blood Angels. Most likely to be independent--as usual--would be the Wolf and the Lion. To be fair, the DA were in no position to do much during these times. Point is, Guilliman provided leadership on the model that Horus (and, arguably, the Emperor) should have done.

(6) BT and Sisters aren't that different, it's true. The biggest difference is that BT should know better. They're Space Marines. Their memory should reach back to the times when they strode out to battle, girded in golden armor, beside the Emperor Himself. The Sisters are "mere mortals" and can't be expected to regard the Emperor as anything but a god. But Space Marines should know better.

(7) You will find that the DA prioritize hunting the Fallen over every other goal including, as it is put in their own Codex, "serving the Emperor." The DA are the most tragic of all Legions, IMO, even moreso than the Thousand Sons.

(8) Oh yes the Wolves take SoS to Prospero. What better way to disarm Magnus than hem him in with untouchables? SoS rule. I really wonder what happened to them. They would have gotten along very well with the BT minus the whole religious thing.

(9) That is true: Chaos is essentially reactive rather than proactive, which is probably the only reason the Chaos gods have not overwhelmed the Materium. This is also the reason why they rely on fallen mortals. But one can serve Chaos without knowing it.

1hadhq wrote:The space marines seem to be as far from perfection as the humans they were basically before.

Sigged.

2. Wrong, crusading is the original mission of all spacemarines. The Templars still follow this ancient ideal, others dont. Everyone serves in his way. Your assumption that they do it out of some kind of guilt has no base, wether in the Codex nor in other, lesser fluffsources.

3. There is no "The Inquisition". Ask a Monodominant and he will definatly tell you that there IS good and evil. The Xhantite will probably have a different opinion.

4. Ultramar is comparativly nice, yes. But it is still far away from the kind of place that the Emperor wished. The people their still engage in religious activity and having Space Marines as rulers is most certainly not what the big E. had in mind for the entire galaxy, which is ultimatly one of the points which drove Horus over the edge.

5 So, papa smurf is now the better Emperor than the big E himself? Delicous heresy. But what kind of leadership did he provide? His splitting of the Legions, under what authority?. his own?, nearly caused a second civil war. You speak of how papa smurf "would" have done various things, but you lack any proof.

6. Why should they? Who says that the emperor is no god? Perhaps the eclesiarchy is right and he ascended on death? There is no definite proof that it didn't happen this way. Besides that, it could be argued that the templars do not worship the emperor as god but merely revere him, like other chapters do just in a slightly more extreme form.

7. And the Ultramarines prioritize their own little empire, inquisitor X prioritizes his own little agenda, everyone has his own priorities.

So, that is all for now

KingDeath wrote:2. Wrong, crusading is the original mission of all spacemarines. The Templars still follow this ancient ideal, others dont. Everyone serves in his way. Your assumption that they do it out of some kind of guilt has no base, wether in the Codex nor in other, lesser fluffsources.

3. There is no "The Inquisition". Ask a Monodominant and he will definatly tell you that there IS good and evil. The Xhantite will probably have a different opinion.

4. Ultramar is comparativly nice, yes. But it is still far away from the kind of place that the Emperor wished. The people their still engage in religious activity and having Space Marines as rulers is most certainly not what the big E. had in mind for the entire galaxy, which is ultimatly one of the points which drove Horus over the edge.

5 So, papa smurf is now the better Emperor than the big E himself? Delicous heresy. But what kind of leadership did he provide? His splitting of the Legions, under what authority?. his own?, nearly caused a second civil war. You speak of how papa smurf "would" have done various things, but you lack any proof.

6. Why should they? Who says that the emperor is no god? Perhaps the eclesiarchy is right and he ascended on death? There is no definite proof that it didn't happen this way. Besides that, it could be argued that the templars do not worship the emperor as god but merely revere him, like other chapters do just in a slightly more extreme form.

7. And the Ultramarines prioritize their own little empire, inquisitor X prioritizes his own little agenda, everyone has his own priorities.

So, that is all for now

Ha. Here we go:

(2) Your equivocation is noted and dismissed. Crusading as such was not the original mission of all Space Marines. Rather the general goal of the Great Crusade, to retake the holdings of the former Terran and Martian empires, was their original mission. The spirit of that mission was to stamp out the darkness of baseless superstitions. Black Templars represent the opposite of that spirit as they are more religiously inclined than any Marines (save the Word Bearers, their ironic cousins). As for why they do it, if you think that it's not based in Dorn's guilt, what can I say? You don't know the fluff very well. I would suggest reading (or re-reading) this thread.

(3) What's your point? Looks like you're simply restating mine.

(4) More equivocation. I think you misunderstand the difference between veneration and adoration.

(5) Guilliman stepped up to the plate after the Emperor mounted His Throne. He also gave up that authority when the Imperium began to run on its on. I've only spoken about what Guilliman did, as gleaned from canonical sources. If you don't have the SM or BT codices you can read the direct quotes I posted above. Many have decried the Codex Astartes as unnecessary and/or evidence of Guilliman's egomania--a rather idiotic position. Consider that there has been no second Horus Heresy in ten thousand years. Even the fall of an entire Chapter (e.g., Astral Claws) is a relatively minor problem comparatively.

(6) Of all the Chapters that should be dubious of the Ecclesiarchy, Dorn's sons stand in the forefront. After all, it was Dorn who strapped the Emperor into the Golden Throne. The BT, however, talk of trusting in the Emperor to intercede on the battlefields of the 41st millennium. This is totally counter factual but typical of Dorn's imbalanced emotional state at that time. Which is what this whole thread is about: the BT being a result of Dorn going off the deep end. Also, see point four above.

(7) And yet more equivocation. Ultramar is a theater of operations, not an internal obsession of the Ultramarines on par with the dereliction of the "Unforgiven"

Tbh, I think the Templars could fall to chaos, although not in the most obvious of ways. If we take as a real life example the Spanish Inquisition (they whom nobody expects), modern day terrorism or some of the actions perpertrated by the Real Life Crusaders, who all did (or do) some really nasty things, this is undeniable. However they all claim to be doing it in the name of thier faith, but can they truly be said to be Christian or Muslim? It is much the same with the Black Templars, although they have a lot of Religious Zeal, it is the methods they use that will eventually damn them, no matter how much religious fervour they have.
To sum it up, It should be said that 'The Road to Hell (or in this case, Chaos) is paved with good intentions.'

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

And the templar crusade is not a penitent one....

more a pursue the traitors.

Dastardly Dave wrote:

I think that Manchu may be right in that the Templars Crusade because of their guilt, after all, Crusades are often used as penances in the 40k universe, and the Templars are on a permanent one, which means they must be feeling pretty guilty about something, as no-one else could have told them to do it.

They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

And the templar crusade is not a penitent one....

more a pursue the traitors.

Although this could be Interpreted as an Order of Penitence, if what Manchu is saying is correct, however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

Fair point about the order to crusade though.

1hadhq wrote:They received their order to crusade from rogal dorn

Riiiiiiight. And why? Because he was feeling like a failure.

1hadhq wrote:And the templar crusade is not a penitent one.... more a pursue the traitors.

To use a SW saying, they're chasing their tails! jk, jk!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dastardly Dave wrote:however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

The sort of fluff arguments that have winners and losers are the worst and most boring kind.

Dastardly Dave wrote:
however the entire argument is really a matter of Interpretation of the Fluff, and thus can have no winner.

The sort of fluff arguments that have winners and losers are the worst and most boring kind.

Yeah, I actually prefer arguments that can't be won or lost, they give far more scope for creative, reasoned and persuasive arguments, and make you think more about your points.

Its like trying to have an argument over who would win in a fight between 500 'nids and 1 tactical marine: Clearly, the nids are going to win, omnomnomnomnom...
But the current argument is based on points of view, with the main participants unwilling to back down and both utterly convinced they are right. = Infinite Argument

Now why can't you both set aside your differences and accept the greater good?

We'll definitely set aside our difference to gleefully slaughter some xenos scum, if that's what you mean by "greater good."

Sometimes 1hadhq and I tend to get a bit too deeply into character. But I think that shows the true depth of the 40k fluff. You can get sucked into these entirely fictional perspectives and then look at things from two totally opposite but equally valid points of view.

I would put forth that Dorn, being a stubborn to a fault wished to carry out the last orders of his beloved Emperor.

Thus, while the Imperial/Crimson Fists would embody the spirit of the Codex and stay in their respective areas, the Templars were created to continue the mission handed down by the Emperor.

Dorn's activities in the iron cage and the pain glove stem more from his guilt in his failure. He and his legion failed to stop Horus, but unlike the other primarchs He was in charge of Earth's safety and had designed its defenses. I believe his guilt prevented him from taking charge at the end of the Heresy and allowed Gulliman to take control.

Fluff wise the Fists have always equalled the Ultramarines, and so too did Dorn and Gulliman mirror each others accomplishments. There is no reason why Gulliman got top billing, other then Dorn was MIA. Russ and Corax had their own problems and few would follow them, but Dorn could have swayed the others if he wasn't distracted by his own grief. Thus his opposition when Guilliman first revealed his book.

However, he realized that humanity could not afford another schism, so he, Corax, and Khan relented. However he did not forget his oaths and the Templar are the result. They are a compromise that Guilliman never called Dorn on, never censured him for even though he had to have known what was going on.

Note that Russ was never censured either for essentially giving everyone the finger and returning to the Fang to do things his way.

Dorn, having met his obligations to Guilliman with the Fists chapters, felt free to set the Templars back on his own path. They are his vision, a return to a time before his greatest failure.

If you mean that after Horus and Sanguinius were dead, only Dorn and Guilliman had the right personalities to lead the Empire then I agree with you. I also agree that Dorn's grief is what kept him from playing a stronger role. But that is the key difference between Guilliman and Dorn. Dorn was passionate while Guilliman was sangfroid about everything. It does not appear that Dorn actually led the opposition to Codex Astartes. It does not appear that there was any organized opposition. Dorn simply refused and did so in a manner scandalous enough in troubled times to merit Guilliman's wrath while Khan and Russ did not. As for Russ, Guilliman must have been aware of what the SW were bred for (at least after Prospero) and so his indifference to Russ's cursory acknowledgement of the Codex (proven correct by the failure of the Wolf Brothers' geneseed) is understandable. The better question is why Guilliman showed restraint against the BT. There must have either been a compromise between himself and Dorn (perhaps Guilliman was placated that the BT would at least not be led by a Primarch, who would wield a Legion to incomparably greater ruin than any Space Marine--just think of Abbadon) or Dorn deceived him about the true shape and purpose of the BT. My bet is that it was a little of both.

Yes, BT are Dorn's vision. But I wonder if it is truly that of the time before his "failure". It seems to me that they are the embodiment of that failure (which was hardly a failure and if it was anyone's it was the Emperor's own, if there is such a thing) or rather the consequent guilt. The BT are the fruit of whatever vision Dorn experience while inside of the Pain Glove, the children of Dorn's madness at the Iron Cage. As such, I call them a dubious chapter.

I think Guilliman, deep down, must have truly pitied the Dark Angels. I think that's why he mostly left them to their own devices, although they did attempt to comply with the Codex by creating successor chapters. They suffered more than any other loyalist legion from the Heresy and Guilliman must have sensed that they would take the longest to recover the semblance of their former glory. If so, he was surely right.

Dorn, having met his obligations to Guilliman with the Fists chapters, felt free to set the Templars back on his own path. They are his vision, a return to a time before his greatest failure.

So you're saying that the Templars are merely a Sentimental reminder of the Great Crusade, rather than an attempt to redeem himself that resulted in a chapter that is eternally balanced on the edge of chaos?

Manchu wrote:To use a SW saying, they're chasing their tails! jk, jk!

Tails are mutations and mutants must be purged.

Its not my fault,
This righteous zeal kicks sometimes in, unwanted...

Manchu wrote:We'll definitely set aside our difference to gleefully slaughter some xenos scum, if that's what you mean by "greater good."

Fine.
Self sacrificing xenos.

The machinations of the Emperor bear fruit.
In the past, we had to chase them.
Now, they come on their own.



@ Durandal:

Good argument.
Can't resist to agree.

Manchu, Dorn and his troops bore the largest extent of the persecution by the Ultramarines and Imperial forces for not adhering to the codex. This indicates that Dorn and his forces were considered the biggest threat to the new order.

The Fluff is clear Dorn was absent from the war councils that grew into the new leadership of humanity. He, not the Ultramarines hunted down and destroyed the traitors forces in the scouring.
He returned at the head of his army only to find Robute Guilliman had restructured the Imperium, perhaps away from the Emperor's vision. As the only Primarch to routinely be on Earth during the Emperor's great works, and the only one to fully understand the Golden Throne due to the revelations of the Emperor, Dorn had a better idea of what the Emperor really was working on.

This had to have angered Dorn. It wasn't just being out of power. Power never mattered to him, as shown how the Fists never demanded tribute from planets. The only other thing he had going was the vision of the Emperor. Dorn had sworn to uphold that vision. You might be right that that vision drifted after the horror of the heresy, but the Templars have been described as a "Pre-Heresy" style marine army by GW. Fanatical, indoctrinated, but lets not forget that all marines are subject to psycho conditioning and know no fear. Dorn hand picked all the members of this new chapter and their leader for these traits. He could have diluted them with the Crimson Fists and his own Imperial Fists Ranks.

If we are to accept that he did so because he had been touched by chaos inspired visions and the result is a tainted chapter we ignore the Templar's sterling reputation in the battles for Armageddon, where their chapter master and their leaders clearly cared for the humans under their protection. Unlike the Flesh Tearers. By comparison they are a chapter "over the edge" that even the Rough and Ready Space Wolves have issues with. But that is beside the point. The actions of the Templars have been generally on the "good" side. A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

So the only other answer is that Dorn needed to continue the Emperor's plan, not for "Sentimental reasons" as Dasterdly Dave puts it, but because he understood to a great extent what the Emperor had planned for humanity and the Templars are needed to enact it. Kind of like the Slann in some respects.

But at this point he had already rocked the boat buy telling Guilliman to get bent. So he cut a deal. He and Vulkan would adhere to the codex, but he would send out a crusade force. Think of the PR deal here. Guilliman gets his codex approved and implemented plus a third (or fourth) of Dorn's forces leave Imperal space, if he turns a blind eye to how the fleet is organized. In exchange Dorn can have his own plan enacted outside the prying eyes of Guilliman's pet Inquisition.

That leaves the Space Wolves as the only non standard chapter, and Guilliman could live with one diminished legion vs a multitude of his chapters. Their unique geneseed issues were not known at the time, so that isn't a real factor in the decision. I see it more as a power thing. You don't mess with Fenris, but you can cut them out of the loop and leave them as a speed bump for anyone on the way to earth.

I agree completely that the fluff indicates Dorn was the biggest threat to galactic stability after the Heresy. After all, the Imperial Fists were the only ones anyone bothered firing upon. As I've already said, there's not much more that can be drawn from this that isn't mostly speculative.

As to the Ultramarines not hunting down traitors, I have already posted a direct quotations from the C:BT and C:SM 5th ed to the contrary. At this point, we don't know what Guilliman thought about the emergent Ecclesiarchy. It is entirely possible that he thought it was the necessary glue in holding the crumbling Imperium together and that Dorn took exception to that. The fluff seems to imply otherwise. For one thing, the contemporary Ecclesiarchy evolved from thousands of cults over the course of millennia rather than emerging all at once as a monolithic entity following the heresy. For another thing, the Black Templar seem far more embroiled with the Imperial Creed than other Space Marine Chapters (including the Imperial Fists). If the BT are true to Dorn's real post-Heresy vision, as I argue, then it stands to reason that Dorn would not have been very concerned about the negative effects of Emperor-worship and may even have encouraged it amongst those of his Marines more given to zealotry, like Sigismund.

The fluff (so far) also makes it clear that Dorn, as much as any other Primarch, was pretty much in the dark as to the Emperor's plans and motives as the Heresy got underway.

I agree that power never "mattered" to Dorn but I would argue that is because, like nearly all of his brother Primarchs, he simply took it for granted. At the same time, Dorn was unarguably totally loyal to the Emperor. That trait for fanaticism is expressed with most vitriol in the BT. I have never seen BT described as pre-Heresy by GW. I have described them, as far as their organization goes, that way myself. I do not think their religious fanaticism is a pre-Heresy trait, however, as it is wel established that the Emperor did not tolerate that sort of thinking among the Word Bearers. I would not disagree that Dorn hand-picked the first BT. I merely argue that he picked those who were least amenable to the Codex Astartes and most caught up in his own guilt complex, again like Sigismund.

Durandal wrote: A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

It's not only in their fluff, it's in their play style and the rules that establish it.

I also think Vulkan rejected the Codex for different reasons than Dorn. Dorn did not want to abandon the Legion system established by the Emperor. While he had taken losses, he saw that his Legion was largely in tact even after the Siege of Terra. Despite seeing the Emperor's wounding as his own and his Legion's "failure," he must have also concluded that only the strength of a Legion could counter the terrible armies of Horus. Vulkan, by contrast, had seen his own Legion shattered. How could he be expected to split it up what was left of his warrior family? The Wolves, as I have argued, stand apart by the design of the Emperor. I think Guilliman would not have failed to notice this after Prospero.

what about the Fall of the Soul drinkers? another Imp fist successor

we all know how pissed the crimson fists and the imps where about it but how the fanatical Black Templars reacted to that (for the whole if a fist successor fell from grace point of veiw)

(or the nicking of a sacred Rogal Dorn artifact (soul spear by the Ad Mech)

Manchu wrote:I agree completely that the fluff indicates Dorn was the biggest threat to galactic stability after the Heresy. After all, the Imperial Fists were the only ones anyone bothered firing upon. As I've already said, there's not much more that can be drawn from this that isn't mostly speculative.

As to the Ultramarines not hunting down traitors, I have already posted a direct quotations from the C:BT and C:SM 5th ed to the contrary. At this point, we don't know what Guilliman thought about the emergent Ecclesiarchy. It is entirely possible that he thought it was the necessary glue in holding the crumbling Imperium together and that Dorn took exception to that. The fluff seems to imply otherwise. For one thing, the contemporary Ecclesiarchy evolved from thousands of cults over the course of millennia rather than emerging all at once as a monolithic entity following the heresy. For another thing, the Black Templar seem far more embroiled with the Imperial Creed than other Space Marine Chapters (including the Imperial Fists). If the BT are true to Dorn's real post-Heresy vision, as I argue, then it stands to reason that Dorn would not have been very concerned about the negative effects of Emperor-worship and may even have encouraged it amongst those of his Marines more given to zealotry, like Sigismund.

The fluff (so far) also makes it clear that Dorn, as much as any other Primarch, was pretty much in the dark as to the Emperor's plans and motives as the Heresy got underway.

I agree that power never "mattered" to Dorn but I would argue that is because, like nearly all of his brother Primarchs, he simply took it for granted. At the same time, Dorn was unarguably totally loyal to the Emperor. That trait for fanaticism is expressed with most vitriol in the BT. I have never seen BT described as pre-Heresy by GW. I have described them, as far as their organization goes, that way myself. I do not think their religious fanaticism is a pre-Heresy trait, however, as it is wel established that the Emperor did not tolerate that sort of thinking among the Word Bearers. I would not disagree that Dorn hand-picked the first BT. I merely argue that he picked those who were least amenable to the Codex Astartes and most caught up in his own guilt complex, again like Sigismund.

Durandal wrote: A chapter on the knife's edge of being consumed by guilt would be dashing themselves on more Iron Cages. They would constantly need to prove themselves in hopeless battles. I don't see this in the Templar fluff.

It's not only in their fluff, it's in their play style and the rules that establish it.

I also think Vulkan rejected the Codex for different reasons than Dorn. Dorn did not want to abandon the Legion system established by the Emperor. While he had taken losses, he saw that his Legion was largely in tact even after the Siege of Terra. Despite seeing the Emperor's wounding as his own and his Legion's "failure," he must have also concluded that only the strength of a Legion could counter the terrible armies of Horus. Vulkan, by contrast, had seen his own Legion shattered. How could he be expected to split it up what was left of his warrior family? The Wolves, as I have argued, stand apart by the design of the Emperor. I think Guilliman would not have failed to notice this after Prospero.

1) why fight in this "last stand" position? Can't see a good argument on your side. Seems you want this too much.
Durandal has really good points, why not accept them ALL and concur with the truth?

72) The chase for traitors WAS mostly done by other legions, the Ultras may have participated but as Codex supersmurfs says:
the UM are the bestest marines, therefore got a lot of fluff while the rest of the codex adherent legions were reduced to
"aspirants to smurfhood", it is still true that the UM got not much about their acts after the heresy and before the legions split.
One thing to add, most legions who split had 3-5 successors and compared to the UM 23x....rather obvious who had the numbers
on his side.

3) So the former "champion of the emperor" of the IF legion, sigismund, who bested more chaos champions than any other marine,
is a zealot? I don't get it. Why must kicking traitor asses include zealotry?
Wouldn't a focused mind allow to be victorious and stay alive? Zealots tend to be sometimes successful but most times dead.
A wulfen or any other berserker type warrior may dish out a lot, but still the chance for survival are low.
Different to this, an experienced warrior with some control of his "anger" is able to use it and switch back to calm.
So no, declaring a marine a zealot because he was good at his job doesn't make sense.

4) Dorn in the dark? You did remember that Dorn was in charge when the emperor was absent?
Dorn was the one who sent marines to Istvaan III. Dorn was the primarch who ordered the white scars back to terra.
Maybe thats your reason. He didn't allow the WS to help the SW, but insisted they return to terra.
Found it. "Bad" yellow fists didn't save woofies.
In general, all we have from the hierarchy when the emperor was at home, is that malcador was the second in command but
left the space marines to Dorn.
Again, it was Dorns effort that got enough defenders back to the palace.

5) Intact? Dorn reduced his legion in the iron cage to just enough to split into the usual 3 successors ( vs G-Mans 23x mind you ).
Dorn was a soldier, not a self proclaimed owner of star systems like some blue marines. I think we should return to existant fluff
and steer away from speculations.
The imperial fists have no interest in personal glory ( but some grey space marines do ) and duty is important to them.
Its a difference between the pure militarist ( dorn ) and some other primarchs ( theocrats, clandestine and many other organistional
structures ) like johnson ( knight order ), ferrus manus ( clans ), russ ( vikings in space ), khan ( nomads ), not only in behaviour
but also in interests. Should I mention the benefits of different characters?

6) most "renegades" are former UM or using UM geneseed. So who is on the edge ?
The BT? never lost a single one to chaos. The SW? lost already some to it. DA? BA? Any of the "codified legios"?
Point still stands, BT = 0, others = 1+X.

7) Since your main "point" is Dorns issues with the loss of his emperor:
- tell, which primarch would have taken the events at the siege without "issues" afterwards?

8) Soul drinkers? Can't be bothered to acknowledge their existence. But they proved the point of the BT about psykers...

(2) yep, when you can't agree with the canon better pretend it's not canon (same as your point eight)
(3) I thought you read the HH series?
(4) see above
(5) I said intact after the Heresy not after the suicidal madness of the Iron Cage--the event that proves everything I've been arguing
(6) that's because most marines are UM or using UM geneseed; this, in turn, is because other geneseed (including IF) is comparatively deficient
(7) Roboute Guilliman, in point of fact

Manchu wrote:(2) yep, when you can't agree with the canon better pretend it's not canon (same as your point eight)
(3) I thought you read the HH series?
(4) see above
(5) I said intact after the Heresy not after the suicidal madness of the Iron Cage--the event that proves everything I've been arguing
(6) that's because most marines are UM or using UM geneseed; this, in turn, is because other geneseed (including IF) is comparatively deficient
(7) Roboute Guilliman, in point of fact

3+4) oh, i never miss any of them. But still, sigismund got just one short appearance there ( meeting of dorn with horus ) and this piece didn't hint at zealousness. Rather the opposite with Dorns good advice to Loken. ( like that part, fine to make fun of failbaddon). Have to admit, I as german, get BL books later than others.
Doesn't stop me from reading fast to make up for the lost time...but i take notes if something good to know is to be found.

5) Heresy - 7 years - legios split. So level of power at 2nd founding is like i said.
So when exactly did you have a point? heresy ends = emperor strapped to GT? Sure? I doubt GW said so.
I am sorry to insist of it, but still the perturabo vs dorn incident proves you wrong.....
IF had heavy losses through the siege. Lost more at the crappy cage. It wasn't dorn + intact legio vs codex G-man.

6) you did notice this isn't compatible with the index astartes and several codices?
Ultras had the majority because of their numbers ( 23.000 ) and better recrutement system. Like codex SM told,
the ultras had to LOWER their recrutement greatly after 2nd founding.

7) expected another name, but fine.

8) soul drinkers is like wolf of fenris in that light....

(5) I think you're confused about what I'm trying to say. However many SM Dorn lost at the Iron Cage is unimportant. He had already disagreed with Guilliman over the Codex before that. It also doesn't matter how many IF were lost against Horus, Lorgar, etc on Terra. My point was--regarding this matter as opposed to the main topic of the thread--that Dorn would have been convinced that only a Legion could stand up to the real threats of the Imperium and that following the Codex would be suicide. The main point of the thread is that Dorn went nuts after Horus wounded the Emperor, as seen by his actions at the Cage, and that the BT are the legacy of Dorn's craziness.

(6) Re-read the SM codex. Majority of SM chapters are UM sucessors because of the stability of the UM geneseed. That is extremely well established.

(7) Russ? Russ was clearly effected. That's why he disappeared--as some say, into the very Eye of Terror.

Manchu wrote:(5) I think you're confused about what I'm trying to say. However many SM Dorn lost at the Iron Cage is unimportant. He had already disagreed with Guilliman over the Codex before that. It also doesn't matter how many IF were lost against Horus, Lorgar, etc on Terra. My point was--regarding this matter as opposed to the main topic of the thread--that Dorn would have been convinced that only a Legion could stand up to the real threats of the Imperium and that following the Codex would be suicide. The main point of the thread is that Dorn went nuts after Horus wounded the Emperor, as seen by his actions at the Cage, and that the BT are the legacy of Dorn's craziness.

(6) Re-read the SM codex. Majority of SM chapters are UM sucessors because of the stability of the UM geneseed. That is extremely well established.

5) Still glued to an imagined crazyness of Dorn? Maybe dex o' smurf page 27 can help.
You could call them all stubborn, or see it worse as self sacrifical, but this doesn't change the fact that
IF would chose the path of the samurai instead of the whiny chaos slave.


6) Dex'o smurf page 13 clearly states that about 50% of the space marines were UM after the heresy.
So not really surprising to keep that "influence".
Additionally ,Dex'o smurf page 14 "2nd founding". Nothing of this stability, cause that wasn't so rare. Multiple legions claim that.
But again the size of the legion mattered.

I doubt i need to reread it. Its right there. 50% of marines -> 50% of successor chapters.
And you can't compete with G-Mans organistory talent. No chance to outpace them on recrutement.
Some legions had hard times recruting and will not grow enough to split up new chapters.
If stability is an argument, where are the hordes of DA successors?

9) how about the new "sons of Dorn" book?

(5) Dorn went crazy. It's as simple as that. He was not faced with a choice between death and submission to Chaos. He could have approached the Iron Cage more sensibly--he was a Primarch general, wasn't he???--but his insanity got in the way.

(6) One objective of the Codex was to preserve integrity of geneseed. (C:SM5 p8) Guilliman basically was forcing everyone else to follow his slow recruitment policies in order to halt its degradation. The IF and their successors, for example, are zygote deficient. (The implication would seem to be that VII Legion recruited more quickly if less steadily than XIII Legion.) Even though the Ultramarines have directly and indirectly given rise to far more successor chapters than any other legion or chapter, their geneseed (barring spontaneous mutations, as in the 21st Founding) remains stable and complete.

While the codex does not explicitly state it, it is reasonable to guess that about 50% or slightly less of the Second Founding chapters were derived from Ultramarine stock. C:SM5 (p14) says that most chapters had less than five successors while the Ultramarines had twenty three. We know of that the Space Wolves only split into two chapters and the IF split into (at least) three. Assuming that the White Scars, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels likely split into five or six chapters each and that the decimated Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Salamanders were only able to split into two chapters each, that puts the Ultramarine successors at 45 - 48% of all First and Second Founding chapters.

We do know that by M41, half of all subsequent foundings are descended directly or indirectly from Guilliman. This is in part because of the prevalance of Ultramarine successors from the Second Founding (C:SM5 p14) but more likely, given how many of the Primogenitors must have been destroyed before they could themselves split in subsequent foundings, because Adeptus Terra always favors UM geneseed when creating new chapters (C:SM5 p10). Now that I have reminded you of who actually makes the decision to found a new chapter and to do so from who's geneseed, you will be able to figure out why there are not more Unforgiven Chapters despite the stability of DA geneseed.

Given all of this, I don't understand your insinuations of Guilliman's "influence" being forced upon everyone else. He divided his Legion into Chapters before anyone else. And even after Dorn gave in, the BT would have significantly outnumbered any other chapter. BT were the entire VII Legion, post Iron Cage, minus two thousand marines after all. The only possibly larger chapter were the Space Wolves.

(9) Haven't picked it up. I thought the IF Scouts story in Heroes of the Space Marines was awful.

The funny thing about this whole thread is that IF were my favorite chapter when I first got into 40k. I used to think Dorn was awesome. The Black Templars, in combination with the overwhelming awesomeness of the Space Wolves, are what changed my mind. And, as I've gotten older, I've started to think of Guilliman as what Dorn should have been. If Guilliman had been at Terra, I wonder if Horus would even have gotten into the Solar System. Attacking when he and Russ were away was the most brilliant part of Horus's strategy.

Ultramarines were lucky in getting away mostly unmauled compared to the other legions, which did help. Yes, they fought the Word Bearers, but I've gotten the impression that they were smaller (a lot of their force seems to be split onto the planets they conquered, to convert the populous, and they had a decent chunk of leaders with Horus and the other fallen legions as being the closest to the chaos gods) and not as well adapted to the type of fighting that they engaged in. They were mostly a distraction, while the others sent to intercept were attempting to cripple the other legions before they arrived just as much as tie them up.

I didn't think that there were any successor chapters fragmenting from the Salamanders, because they were rendered below chapter numbers and just recruited to the new limit. Dark Angels lost half their legion straight up, then split into 3 or 4 confirmed by fluff, unknown if there were a few more. Space Wolves were more a token split to pacify than a numbers game. Iron Hands and Raven Guard... weren't they rendered into only a few hundred marines for one, and barely a hundred survivors for the other? No splitting possible. White Scars I'm not sure of how they came through, but if not too badly they probably split into quite a few. I think all the Astral Claws area was White Scar geneseed, but that was later on. Still suggests that if several chapters can be made from it at once (at least 3) then there is a decent stock of fairly reasonable quality, implying a reasonable number of successors. Blood Angels got a double hammer blow, first the ambush/attack on Signus Prime (getting tricked onto a newly fallen daemon world and ambushed, then having the entire legion go into the Black Rage when their primach is crippled and fighting so fiercely that Khorne daemons turn tail and run/are banished) which did a lot of damage. Then being on the front lines of the Battle of Terra and the holding of the Eternity Gate (even if in the end Sanguinius was the last one left holding it for several days). Again, fair bit of mangling and then splitting into half a dozen chapters, I think. Although with corrupted geneseed, which is why most of the BA geneseed chapters are quite old because using it on new ones has turned out to be a bad idea. Given the the Ultramarines were the largest legion at the time of the HH, it's not surprising they got the lions share of the successors.

I also don't think each was an immediate 1k marines. More like 800-900, so that they could actually start recruiting and training immediately instead of only starting later on. Which would stretch the geneseed further and exaggerate the differences. Finally, the more chapters you start with, the more you have to harvest geneseed from, the more you can make with it... Combined with the fact that some legion's seed can only be used sparingly because of mutations, it isn't really surprising at least half the current marines have descended from Gulliman.

UM were not "lucky"--Horus was the one who got lucky on that count. Like I said, this was one half of the best idea he ever had. But you're right about the Word Bearers on one count at least. Whatever number of them the UM were fighting it wasn't the full Legion because Erebus and Kor Phaeron were leading Word Bearers at the Siege of Terra.