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Manchu wrote:the difference is not important to this discussion. (It is later retconned in Visions that the Librarians would be disbanded entirely.) What Magnus did was sorcery and it was banned.

The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Manchu wrote:
Magnus chose his investigation into the Warp via sorcery over loyalty to the Emperor. How was he not seduced by Chaos? His rationalizations that he remained loyal were by that point meaningless and only further served Chaos--as evidenced by the greatest folly of his pride, the message of warning that ended up allowing the Palace to be invaded by daemons. One might say that Magnus could not have foreseen this. This is absurd. The Emperor commanded him to cease because his sorceries were dangerous. Magnus was warned. By willfully proceeding in his crimes, Magnus formed constructive intent to harm the Imperium.

Really? Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.
There was no intend to harm the imperium and MAgnus won't foresee everything .
Proof of this is the simple fact that none of the primarchs with any visionary powers did forsee the whole thing,
like Sanguinius and Curze did never get the complete story to see.

Manchu wrote:At the Emperor's side stood Russ, quaking with barely-contained wrath at Magnus's actions. The Emperor turned to him, for he knew he could be counted on to prosecute his next orders without restraint. He ordered the Space Wolves to be unleashed upon Magnus and the scholar-soldiers of Prospero. (IA III p.66)

No one knows what reaction Magnus expected to receive to his warning. If he thought the Emperor would be pleased with him, he sorely misjudged him. The Emperor flew into a terrible rage, appearing to ignore the content of Magnus's message. He was consumed with anger that Magnus should so flagrantly have disobeyed his orders to renounce sorcery and psychics. The Emperor called to his side the Primarch Leman Russ of the Space Wolves. Russ and Magnus were old rivals and there was some bitterness between them. The Emperor commanded Russ to move on Prospero and prosecute the rebel Primarch. His orders were clear; the Primarch and his Thousand Sons were consorting with the warp in direct contradiction of personal instruction from the Emperor. They should be shown no mercy! (Visions of Heresy p98)

Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Manchu wrote: And if you need more explicit proof:None can say when Magnus was tainted by the warp, but his actions suggest that his corruption was well progressed by the time of the Council of Nikaea. It is probable that his senior officers and Librarians were also corrupt at this point. Magnus had no problems persuading his Legion to collude with his plan to secretly continue their study of the warp. (Visions of Heresy p97)

Funny. again a page beyond the size of the book.

Manchu wrote:This argument will go nowhere as long as you ignore all existing fluff in favor of a potential retcon of which you have no evidence.

May i repeat the evidence another hundred times?
It seems one quotes not "Visions of heresy..." Could it be you should post the real title?

Manchu wrote:
As to what Magnus knew, or thought he knew:

Seeing into the depths of the Warp from his sanctum upon Prospero, Magnus beheld a vision of Horus's pledge of fealty to Chaos upon the feral fields of Davin. Horus's treachery was revealed, every detail made known with total clarity. Magnus saw the too-human foibles of Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children and Angron of the World Eaters played upon masterfully by Horus, and greater forces veiled by the Warp. He saw the terrible trap being laid for Ferrus Manus of the Iron Hands, Vulkan of the Salamanders, and cautious Corax of the Raven Guard on Istvaan V. He saw the Emperor's mightiest bastion of unalloyed loyalty, Guilliman's Ultramarines, being cleverly decoyed to the far side of the galaxy, where they could play little part in the drama to unfold. Alone in the galaxy, more clearly than even Horus himself, Magnus was given to understand the events at hand. He saw it all and understood each consequence and every role but his own.(IA III p65)

Funny that the only thing that Magnus could not foresee was the Emperor's rage at his disobedience. Why do you think that is???

and again IA III has 64 pages....

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:I don't have a problem, cause I accept the fluff "as is" and do not believe the weak and false claims of creatures of the warp.

Clearly not. This thread is full of canonical background that you blatantly disregard.

Is that so?
Isn't it interesting how few pre-heresy fluff is presented in codices. Even so, when copy-pasting fluff would be
not unusual for GW. Can't see a codex SW quote. Why?

1hadhq wrote:The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:and again IA III has 64 pages....

Wrong. This part I take back as I'm looking at WD pagination. (March 2002) WD p65 is the fourth page of the Thousand Sons entry. If it is printed identically as it was in WD, you will find the quotation in question starting at the bottom of the middle column and continuing about halfway down into the right column. WELL ACTUALLY you're still wrong as your point was to insinuate that I was making up fluff quotations.

Did you have a point that made sense?

Manchu wrote:

1hadhq wrote:The difference IS important and the fact that your card game fluff cannot retcon the later established HH series.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Lot of speculations here and I am terribly sorry but thats made up and not part of the fluff.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:Visions of heresy doesn't have 98 pages...at best 95 per book.

Wrong.

1hadhq wrote:and again IA III has 64 pages....

Wrong.

Did you have a point that made sense?

Shall I post a pic of the last pages of the four visions of heresy books and also the index astartes series I-IV?

Simply put, youre either willfully ignored the fact that vision of heresy has a series of 4 books and a collected visions edition
and also try to tell us the IA had more than 64 pages.

Seems you can't provide correct sources.

This is FACT.
So, where am I wrong?

Although I find it redundant to spell out, you are wrong on these points:

The difference between psychic power and sorcery is not material to this discussion. All fluff is published by GW, either under the name Games Workshop or the name Black Library. Both sources are canonical.

There was no speculation in my analysis of Magnus's motivation.

Collected Visions of Heresy has four volumes: Visions of War, Visions of Darkness, Visions of Treachery, and Visions of Death. The pagination is continuous throughout, exceeding 400 pages.

Manchu wrote:



Collected Visions of Heresy has four volumes: Visions of War, Visions of Darkness, Visions of Treachery, and Visions of Death. The pagination is continuous through, exceeding 400 pages.

And so it would not been beneficial to mark the quotes right as "collected visions" quotes?

Plus correct page numbers for IA was all I asked for.

But it seems i MUST be WRONG in your book.
Weird way to act.

Seems precise sources aren't welcome.

Just remember: IA and HH has WH40k printed on them, visions has not.

1hadhq wrote:And so it would not been beneficial to mark the quotes right as "collected visions" quotes?

I have used the term "Visions of Heresy" throughout this thread and you only have problems with it now? I also used WD pagination for the Thousand Sons entry of Index Astartes but you've never had a problem with it before? Why is that? Seems like a disingenous attempt to discredit my argument without having to take the time and effort to craft a cited counterargument.

1hadhq wrote:But it seems i MUST be WRONG in your book.

You do not have to be wrong. You can either agree with me or prove me wrong. That would involve citing sources. I've already told you I don't mind trying to work out the page numbers if you don't want to post translations. When you rudely posted German sources, I even played your weird little game and found them.

1hadhq wrote:Seems precise sources aren't welcome.

I'd have more sympathy with this claim if you bothered to raise a question about my sources earlier (when they first appeared) or bothered to list any properly cited sources for your own arguments.

1hadhq wrote:Just remember: IA and HH has WH40k printed on them, visions has not.

Just remember that BL is owned and operated by GW. Also, what little point you've made about Magnus hinges on a prospective BL publication and ignores Index Astartes.

To explain my thinning patience, I will repeat here what I have stated elsewhere. While it takes mere seconds for you to post whatever comes off the top of your head it takes me a considerable amount of time and effort to track down and type (painstakingly word for word) the canonical background material that supports my points. You can imagine my irritation to find you constantly questioning my honesty while providing nothing at all in the way of evidence for your points.

Fulgrim too could be argued as... well, definitely not innocent, but of being the one fallen primach that seemed to realise what he had done and actually regretted it. Of course then he made the foolish, easy and possibly cowardly choice of surrendering to the daemon just so that he wouldn't have to face it.

I think that's what I like about the primachs, and 40k characters in general. They aren't perfect figures, they are complex beings with their own personalities and motivations, ones that seem perfectly logical and rational from their point of view even if they are anything but from another's. Even those people or cultures we would consider undoubtedly evil do not thin of themselves as such (I don't think anyone thinks that they are evil and that that is a motivation in real life. Fiction is another story). It's very tempting to consider scenarios of what could have happened if something was slightly different, if situations or motivations were tweaked, if someone had more or less willpower than they did. And one can follow this to some very interesting conclusions. I have a friend and I playing with such a situation with Sanguinius even when we both know damned well that that would never have happened. Or at least very very clearly did not. Although a twitch of it may though very unlikely and wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference.

Okay, now I'm rambling.

I think the Black Templars could be partially influenced by this fear, but I also don't feel that it is consciously. If it was they would be more... well, 'exact' doesn't seem the right word and neither does 'cautious', but probably taking a path more akin to that of the Grey Knights but without the psyker and daemon possession and expulsion bits. Likely to spend more time on practical defences of the sort that can't actually lead one into corruption (I don't think aegis runes can? Someone feel free to correct me on that). Instead they take a path that also skates close to the edge by their very fanaticism.

If you excuse the jumping to a completely different setting, it reminds me of something out of the novel for Revenge of the Sith. Said novel talks about various forms of lightsaber combat, how they each have different strengths and weaknesses, etc. And how Mace Windu uses a style he developed that is particularly dangerous, because it is described as 'passing through the penumbrae of the dark side'. He's the only one that has used it successfully, everyone else taught it seems to have become dark jedi, but he needs it because it allows him to tame the hint of darkness within that he can't quite tame and channel it to acceptable paths, ignoring the fact it involves bending some of the rules the jedi are taught. It is his own will and morals that lets him keep on his path.

I get a similar vibe from the Black Templars. They have that same hint of darkness in their approach, and beat it into something incredibly focused and devout so that it cannot harm them and are afraid of it turning to any other purpose, for that would deeply scar them. And other chapters may not succeed if they tried to walk the same path. And I'm sure I've just explained that horribly to boot.

Manchu wrote:

To explain my thinning patience, I will repeat here what I have stated elsewhere. While it takes mere seconds for you to post whatever comes off the top of your head it takes me a considerable amount of time and effort to track down and type (painstakingly word for word) the canonical background material that supports my points. You can imagine my irritation to find you constantly questioning my honesty while providing nothing at all in the way of evidence for your points.

You don't need patience, just read the other posts instead of mine.

But consider this:
Maybe i did not ask for corrections when i had to look for those quotes myself, but i do find it irritating when other posters (morgrim)
ask for sources where to find your quotes and your posted pages and books arent leading to it.

And this:
I do not post off the top of my head.

But it see you dislike to be pushed to get more info into your thread.

Before you start whining again, let me point at Index astartes 3, pages 43-45, there are the events of prospero and the fall of magnus is described. ( no more WD IA excuses ). Clearly states that the SW and TS sources contradict each other.
The answer to "ALSO:When Did Magnus Fall To Chaos " is right there.
Magnus pledged allegiance when his home was burnt to the ground and all his collected knowlegde with it.

Next point:
"false gods" (mc neill also wrote the Visions entry) page 314:
'Magnus', said Horus, 'is it really you?'
'Yes my brother it is', said Magnus, and the twowarriors embraced in a clatter of plate.
'How?' asked Horus, 'are you dying too?'
'No' said Magnus, ' Iam not.You must listen to me, my brother. It has taken me too long to reach you, and I do not have much time here. The spells and wards placed around you are powerful and every second I am here a dozen of my thralls die to keep them open.'


the warning in detail follows this. Magnus reveals erebus identity and the fight for horus attention starts.

"false gods"/page 323:
'Horus, my brother', said Magnus.'you must not believe whatever he has told you. Its lies, all of it. Lies that disguise his sinister purpose'.

'You dare speak of lies while you stand before us in the warp? How can this be without the use of sorcery?
Sorcery you were expressly forbidden to practise by the Emperor himself?' ( speech of erebus )

'Do not presume to judge me,whelp!' shouted Magnus, hurling a glittering ball of fire towards the first chaplain.

( remember the chaplain edict of malcador here, the idea of the WB should control psykers but instead the WB lowered defenses of the loyalists with the restricting of librarians and at the same time worked themselves in the warp )

Horus watched as the flame streaked towards Erebus and enveloped him, but as the fire died, he saw that erebus was unharmed,
his armor not so muich asscratched and his skin unblemished. Erebus laughed, 'youre too far away,Magnus. Your powers cannot reach me here'.
Horus watched as Magnus hurled bolt after bolt of lightning from his fingertips, amazed and horrified to see his brother employing such powers.Tough all the legions had once Librarius divisions that trained warriors to tap into the power of the warp, they had been
disbanded after the Emperors decree at the council of Nikaea.

( but almost every chapter has librarians now....)

Clearly, Magnus had paid this order no mind and such conceit staggered Horus.
'You see' said Erebus, turning to horus, ' he cannot be trusted'.
'Nor can you' said Horus. ........'If he is here by sorcery, then how else can you be here?'

( so Magnus and Lorgar/Erebus didn't pay attention when the Emperor made a decree )

'the future is not set, Horus.Erebus may have shown you A future, but that is only one possible future . It is not absolute.
Have faith in that'. ( Magnus attempt to sway horus )

'I can trust neither of you,' he said.' I am Horus and I make my own fate'.

( next step is erebus reveals lorgar's real loyalities. Magnus can't beleive it but in questioning them, he's losing Horus to erebus.
Jealousy and self aggrandization took the better of horus)

'Horus',said Magnus, 'I am running out of time. Please be strong ,my brother.Think of what this mongrel dog is aking you to do.
He would have you spit on your oaths of loyality . He is forcing you to betray the emperor and turn on your brother astartes!
You must trust the emperor to do what is right.'
'The emperor plays dice with the fate of the galaxy ', countered erebus,'and he throws them where they cannot be seen'.

(accusing big E to cheat in a tabletop???)

'Horus, please' cried Magnus, his voice taking on a ghostly quality as his image began to fade.'You must not do this or all WE have
fought for will be cast to ruin forever!You cannot do this terrible thing!'

( erebus again makes promises of power)

'Enough' roared Horus and the world was silence. 'I have made my choice'.

( i think we know his choice...)

"false gods"/page 367:
Fulgrim said, 'Indeed, my brother. Come, there is much for us to talk about, for these are strange times we live in.
It seems our brother Magnus has once again done something to upset the Emperor, and the wolf of Fenris has been unleashed to
ESCORT him back to terra.'
'Magnus?' asked Horus, suddenly sreious.'What has he done?'

( so the warmaster acts as surprised ....)


"false gods"/page 405:
'But what about Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently. 'What happens when leman russ returns him to terra?'
Horus smiled. 'Calm youreself , Mal.I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus
treacherous use of demonic spells and conjurations.He was,...suitably angry , and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to terra would be a waste of time and effort.'
Maloghurst returned Horus smile .'Magnus will not leave prospero alive.'
'No', agreed Horus'he will not.'

( the wolf fooled )


Enough keyboard action yet?
Proof of Magnus attempt to save Horus. Proof of Magnus loyality in the eyes of the archtraitor.

I temd to subscribe to the idea that the 40K universe (much like our own) is aplace of infinite possibility, so I can see your point of view on Magnus, although I disagree

Could also stem from our dispositions relating to the Primarchs as well - Magnus has always been my favourite Primarch, and the Sons my favourite Legion (pre-heresy, none of this rubric nonsense), wereas I know you favour Russ and his most hairy followers we will never see eye-to-eye on this matter much like Russ and Magnus themselves could never resolve their differences.

But again, another parallel. Both Magnus and Russ have felt the kiss of mutation and the deviancies that it has bestowed upon their legions. Both look back to a simpler era (Ancient Norse and Egypt) and draw thei iconography and beliefs from there, thay are almost one and the same, much like me and yourself (both strongly opinioned on the matter, but unable to give ground to the other one despite our similiarities). It's a cool thing to see

Random note: I've always been amused that of the three primachs with the most obvious mutations, two are the most potent psykers of the lot. And those two are the two that cannot conceal their mutations no matter what they do.

Dead interesting thread. I like the original premise, though I will say that the original intention behind the Templars does not mean they cannot be more than zealots. Individual Templars can rise above it.

I've always thought it was strange that the Templars are allowed to have such an abberant force structure. Same with the Wolves. If I was an inquisitor, I'd make it my business to try and do something about that...

1hadhq: The ignore button doesn't exist to allow you to be discourteous.

Da Boss wrote:
1hadhq: The ignore button doesn't exist to allow you to be discourteous.

discourteuos
Ok looked in my dictonary.

You think I did offend ?
Maybe its to easy to get me going.

Canonical sources explicitly state that Magnus and his leading officers were probably corrupt by the time of the Council of Nikaea. That is the end of that argument. Those who want to ignore the sources will continue to do so no matter what, it seems.

The remaining question is why Magnus, if corrupted by the Warp before Horus's betrayal much less the destruction of Prospero, did not simply pledge himself to Chaos before those events. This is an area where we have to speculate. The only thing that is clear is that Magnus held his continued practice of sorcery in higher regard than the commands of his father. Obviously, this does not mean that he considered himself a traitor.

I would suggest that as Magnus delved deeper into sorcery after Nikaea he also sank deeper into denial. We know from the XV Legion's Index entry that Magnus had been in some sort of psychic contact with the Emperor through the Warp before the Emperor came to Prospero. There is also no reason to believe that Magnus had a strained relationship with the Emperor before Nikaea, although there is no reason to believe they had a particularly close relationship, either. (Although we do know that Russ, Mortarion, and Corax mistrusted him and his Legion.) In any case, Magnus eagerly joined the Crusade.

But after Nikaea, he found his loyalty tested and he chose disobedience. We do not know whether or how he struggled with his conscience over this decision except that he truly believed sorcery could be mastered and was no more inherently dangerous than technology. (There is a striking parallel here, however, between sorcery and artificial intelligence.) It seems to me that this was Magnus's rationalization of his betrayal: the Emperor erred to caution and must be educated. On the one hand, what staggering arrogance he showed in this attitude. On the other hand, he appears to have been a psyker of the same caliber as the Emperor or Eldrad Ulthran. In any case, Magnus seems to have justified his own treacherous curiosity by telling himself that his research would ultimately benefit mankind. Paradoxically, the more he betrayed the Emperor the more important his self-image of loyalty became to him.

In this way, the denial of Magnus was not simply passive. He did not merely absolve himself of the guilt of his betraying his oath but equated this betrayal with a higher form of loyalty. This was a master stroke of Chaos. For just as the Emperor became aware of the power of Magnus's mind through the Warp, Index Astartes tell us other forces became aware of him as well. It seems to me that those forces granted Magnus his vision of Horus's treachery in order to vindicate Magnus's false sense of loyalty, to make him believe that he had finally found proof that he was right to break his oath and continue his studies. As Index Astartes tells us, his sorcerous message of warning to Terra was to be his "moment of triumph." But these same powers, taking advantage of his willful blindness to his own treachery, obscured the role that he was himself to play. And Magnus, in his thralldom to the Warp through sorcery, did not guess that the very use of these powers allowed them to control him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead of saving Terra, this message was a blow to the Emperor. Magnus's spell was designed to penetrate the hexagrammic wards of the Palace and ultimately allowed for the invasion of Terra itself by armies of daemons. Although the timeline is not entirely clear, we know that Magnus also tried to intervene with Horus personally within the Warp at the moment of his fall. (This most likely will be shown to have occurred before the disastrous message to Terra.) But this plan, as 1hadhq (perhaps unintentionally) shows in the quotations from False Gods that he included above, also catastrophically backfired. Lorgar's attempts to corrupt Horus were clumsy. Horus was not a man to be led into any action.

But Magnus's intervention helped push Horus over the brink. Erebus failed to convince Horus in all aspects but one: he pointed out that Magnus was also treacherous. How hollow must Magnus's warning that Horus should trust the Emperor to know what is right have sounded to Horus, knowing that Magnus himself did not trust the Emperor in this way and had clearly violated their father's decrees at Nikaea? Suddenly terrified at the prospect of Horus's fall, Magnus was no doubt completely sincere in his attempt to prevent it. But by his own disloyalty he had forfeit any credibility with Horus. Magnus learned in anguish that betrayal and fidelity cannot coexist in a man. Perhaps this explains the urgency of Magnus's warning to Terra. Faced with impotence to save his brother, Magnus was also finally confronted with the reality of his own corruption. The use of sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus's fall in fact (no longer a mere vision of the future) was Magnus's last chance to prove not only that sorcery could be used to the benefit of man but to also prove that his own "higher loyalty" should overcome his particular disobedience.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There also remains the question of Russ. Was Russ sent to destroy Prospero or to merely chain Magnus? Despite claims to the contrary, I have already mentioned in this thread that both the Space Wolves and Thousand Sons entries of the Index Astartes say that the truth of Prospero is clouded by perspective. (As I have also already mentioned, Abnett has said that this sense of mystery will not be resolved by A Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns.) Existing canon suggests that the Emperor was furious with Magnus and trusted Russ with the mission to Prospero for the very reason that Russ had always been suspicious of Magnus. I've also pointed out many times that Abnett claims the Space Wolves were bred for the purpose of taking out another Legion.

As 1hadhq shows above, however, Horus claims to Fulgrim that the Emperor wanted Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra. Is Horus trustworthy on this point? Maybe so. It would seem to make sense that the Emperor would rather deal with Magnus in person rather than (seemingly) hastily kill him. Also, Horus would have no reason to lie to Fulgrim--at least not this lie. Fulgrim's betrayal was always premised more on love for Horus than hate for their father. Finally, we know that a fleet of Black Ships accompanied Russ to Prospero "with orders to carry back to Terra any pskyers or sorcerers left on the planet after the Thousand Sons had been dealt with," along with Custodes ("a sure sign that the Primarch's mission had the full authority of the Emperor," Visions p.98) and Sisters of Silence (cover of Prospero Burns). (I think we can safely say that the Emperor expected Magnus to resist.)

But maybe we are misinterpreting what Horus is saying here. We tend to assume that Magnus was going to be brought back to Terra for some kind of trial but when we look at the evidence, that does not seem likely. Index Astartes says sorcery was made an unforgivable offense against humanity at Nikaea. It also related that the Emperor said to him: "If you treat with the warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial Records for all time." (Visions p94) Again, the verdict at Nikaea was that "Magnus was to cease all sorcery and psychics on pain of death." (Visions p.97) In light of this, it becomes apparent that there would be no other reason to bring Magnus to Terra other than to be executed by the Emperor himself.

So in what way did Horus actually trick Russ? Did Horus subvert the Emperor's purpose? Considering that the Emperor's purpose was most likely to kill Magnus and destroy his Legion, no. Horus simply convinced Russ, by expanding upon the true depths of Magnus's use of sorcery, that Magnus's warning was completely false--which, according to Index Astartes, both Russ and the Emperor already believed anyway. He also advised Russ that Magnus, being a traitor, would most certainly resist so that he should not even give the Cyclops a chance to surrender. Instead, Russ should bombard the planet and then invade. Which eminently sensible military stratgey Russ did indeed pursue.

This is not the same thing as convincing Russ to kill Magnus outright, as Horus grandly claims. The Emperor and Russ were already convinced that (1) Magnus was a traitor, (2) Magnus would resist imprisonment, and (3) Magnus deserved death. Commencing a surprise attack on Prospero was not in violation of his orders to bring Magnus back to Terra. Indeed, Russ never did kill Magnus but simply completely disabled him by breaking his back (if the legends are true), which is likely the only way you could capture a Primarch who refused to surrender. So how exactly did Horus trick Russ? I think Horus's statement to Maloghurst quoted above turns out to be an example of Horus's very high opinion of himself and his schemes. If anything, Horus got lucky on this account. The Wolves were on Terra at this point. The Emperor sending Russ to Prospero (along with some Sisters of Silence and Custodes) would significantly weaken Terra's defenses. Horus does not seem to have done anything to actually distract Russ or make his campaign against Magnus run any longer than it actually would. So again, Horus seems to be implying that this is all a part of his plan when in reality the Warp Gods and Magnus's arrogance are actually at work.

And why did Magnus never attempt to surrender to Russ? Actually, I would bet he did try this and that we will see this in the upcoming books. That, in my opinion, is one of the mysteries of conflicting perspective that we will see tragically play out. Did Magnus finally completely realize his fall and repent? Or did he begin to do so and then, in anger and frustration, insist on the justice of his research into sorcery? Did the Curse of the Wulfen prevent Russ and his Legion from seeing reason and accepting a proposed surrender? We may find out more in the upcoming novels. Existing accounts testify to the intense fury of the Space Wolves. In the "Lament of Prospero" as "quoted" in Index Astartes, Space Wolves are described as losing their minds but fighting on anyway out of sheer bloodlust. ("Lament of Prospero" seems to be an account from the Space Wolves' point of view. It also claims Magnus made his bargain with Chaos before the personal combat with Russ.) The other mystery is how a world of precognitive sorcerers could not foresee the arrival and attack of Russ. Perhaps the Black Ships and Sisters of Silence played some role in this? Perhaps the Gods of Chaos blinded the Thousand Sons so that they would be at the brink of destruction and so finally give themselves to the Warp not as masters of sorcery but as slaves.

I'm not entirely sure that the Emperor would have killed Magnus; or at least not kill him outright. Evidence suggests that the Emperor could be very vindictive when he wanted to. Why else would the two missing legions have been destroyed, when it is suggested that they may never had even met their primach? And destroying the entire Thousand Sons... well, that could be justified in some respects if they thought all had fallen, but I recall that some loyalists from that legion were amongst those that fled to Terra as did others from those legions that fell. I know there is a theory that some members of the Thousand Sons were founding members of the Grey Knights (and in that context, I can certainly see why they would be tested in such a gruelling and exhaustive way).

The Emperor could well have intended to make an example of Magnus, possibly in execution. He was the only one capable of completely destroying Horus' warp presence which he may have deemed necessary in this case. He may have had a purpose for Magnus other than death, since he was such a skilled and powerful psyker, although I have a very strong feeling that it would be classed as 'incredibly unpleasant'. Or he could have vented his fury on Magnus, probably in a way that took him a few years to heal, and set him on some sort of task in penance but kept under an incredibly close watch by the Emperor himself. All of the above requiring him to be brought back alive and (relatively) intact.

The forces Russ took certainly indicated that they expected to have to fight Magnus, but I'd argue that they didn't mean they were to destroy him. If that was the case and his legion and any psykers were to be destroyed that would have just called exterminatus from orbit. Yes, I know that that is considered a last resort, but a nearly full legion of space marines with powerful psykers and suspected to be in league with chaos, within their own stronghold, seems like an occasion it would be warranted. Perhaps they lacked the ability to do that then. Horus suggesting the logical tactic of starting by attacking from orbit, though, could have tipped the tide further than you think. If the start of the setting had been a message from Magnus to Russ that they had this massive fleet and the Emperor had ordered Magnus dragged back in chains and to be taken in force if he refused, words about surrender would have been more likely. Because having a full legion plus Custodes is generally an indication that you are in a lot more trouble than you thought you had been. Offering a chance to surrender from orbit where you still have the ability to bombard them when they say no seems an even better idea tactically speaking. If they were worried about orbital defences then there is a bit of fluff contradiction going on here because people on Prospero would certainly have noticed them coming, so no element of surprise for them to ruin, and if they were going to blow the SW out of the sky they'd be doing so whether they were struck first or not.

Breaking a primachs back does seem to be the best way to physically incapacitate them, but also doesn't seem to be very permanent or even long lasting (Sanguinius recovered in time to fight at full strength during the Siege of Terra). So if it is a temporary thing, it also stands to reason that it is a very good tactic when you are trying to kill someone because then you aren't dealing with both physical and psykic attack. It is also implied in fluff that primachs are very very hard to kill. The few I can think of that are explicitly stated have either been decapitated or very close to it (a dagger through the throat that would have been lethal on its own, plus being poisoned, counts as close enough). And having a primach about to give you the coup de grace when you are helpless counts as pretty panic inducing; given that he only pledged at that moment, I wonder how much was 'I don't want my legion destroyed' and how much was 'I'm about to die!'. If he was just worried about his legion he would have done it the instant he thought all hope was lost. In this, a few words of Horus could have had a decent impact. Merely increasing the ferocity of the invasion, and he'd know the SW would be more likely to go into berserker rage and be even less reasonable if they thought the situation was even more dire, would still be acceptable because it would mean more SW casualities. But yes, it does sound like Horus was boasting and exaggerating a little.


The areas surrounding what occurred once the planet was attacked are certainly interesting. And again, Magnus suffered from classic hubrus; in greek mythology, it seems that one of the surest ways of bringing about a prophesy is to attempt to prevent it. I can only think of a single occasion where doing so actually worked.

The evidence clearly suggests that the Emperor was going to kill Magnus. Insisting otherwise is speculation (which can be interesting--like guessing that Magnus might be used in the Emperor's own projects) or wishful thinking (Sean's fan service). Visions suggests that the Thousand Sons were to be destroyed at Prospero (see the quote above dealing with capturing any psykers remaining after the XV Legion had been "dealt with").

The City of Light survived the orbital bombardment that destroyed the rest of the surface of Prospero thanks to the spells of the Thousand Sons. Exterminatus may not have been an option.

Whether Magnus or anyone else on Prospero was aware of Russ's approach or arrival is unknown. As I stated, paraphrasing Index Astartes, it is one of the great mysteries of the time.

Whether Magnus swore allegiance to Chaos in the midst of the attack on Prospero or at the moment Russ bested him in personal combat is also not truly known.

As for Russ's orbital bombardment, we can only assume that Chief Custodian Constantin Valdor and Janetia Krolle of the Sisters of Silence, who were both present as the Emperor's right and left hands, agreed with the tactic. I do not see how it could be at variance with the Emperor's orders.

Sorry Manchu, but you can't consider visions as connon. it's a great art book, but the fluff is just all over the place. The ammount of times it contradicts the very novel series it is supposed to accompany is mad. It also has pics in there of characters who are supposed to be loyalists, with chaos mutations all over them.

There are a lot of mistakes in Visions, it's true. There are a lot of fluff mistakes and contradictions throughout all of Games Workshop's publications. Index Astartes entries, for example, were written in the same time period by the same set of author and yet FREQUENTLY contradict one another and other sources. It should be noted, however, that Merrett was not he only author to work on Visions. There is a brief narrative about the final assault on Magnus's Athenaeum written by Graham McNeill, for example. If contradictions are the measuring stick by which we decide what is and is not canon, then nothing is canon.


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Also, whatwhat, I have attempted to use more than one source where possible and especially where I have found a discrepancy between sources.

Manchu wrote:If contradictions are the measuring stick by which we decide what is and is not canon, then nothing is canon.

So what is the measure then? Since you have managed to get through seven pages posting quotations here thare and everywhere. You must believe something in there is solid.

The measurement is first whether or not it was published by Games Workshop/Black Library and second whether or not it has been clearly superseded by later publications. (Something like Ian Watson's trilogy is tricky but it's fairly simple with the Horus Heresy.)

So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

In answer to the very first point posted, I must agree that the Templars are indeed a legacy of something long past. But, by looking at them as a whole, one must consider how close they are to the Templars of the Middle Ages. Look at them. The BT want to control the entire galaxy, the known inhabited area. Look at the Templars, wanting the control the world.

EX

whatwhat wrote:So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

I don't follow your logic.

Manchu wrote:

whatwhat wrote:So by that logic Tarik Torgaddon is no longer a loyalist.

I think based on huge discrepencies like that, Visions should at least be an exemption in the rule. It can't be cannon.

I don't follow your logic.

The first three HH novels has Tarik Torgadon as a loyalist who fights to the death on Istvaan III with Loken. In Collected Visions hes a mutated chaos heretic. Visions postdates the first three HH novels. And that's just one example of Vision's mistakes.

So do we ignore those novels by your logic that later publications supersede those before as canon?

No, we ignore obvious errors. There is also a picture of a green Blood Angel. I'm having trouble finding the picture of Tarik you've mentioned. (Not saying it doesn't exist, I'd just like to know where it is.)

Keep looking, it's there. Haven't got it to hand, don't know the page.

Collected visions is so full of obvious errors I'd be inclined to rule it out alltogether as an implicit summary of events. You shouldn't use it to draw anything key in my opinion. Which brings us back to your point on Magnus.

I disagree with your opinion. The flaw you've brought up (still looking for it) is an obvious one. Neither that or the green Blood Angel invalidate the whole series. Again, your standard rules out using most if not all GW material.

Additionally, if this picture of Tarik was published in anything but Visions of Death, it would have predated and been superseded by the first three HH novels. Actually, please note that it's a picture printed for a card game that predates the novels, as well.

Manchu wrote:The evidence clearly suggests that the Emperor was going to kill Magnus. Insisting otherwise is speculation (which can be interesting--like guessing that Magnus might be used in the Emperor's own projects) or wishful thinking (Sean's fan service). Visions suggests that the Thousand Sons were to be destroyed at Prospero (see the quote above dealing with capturing any psykers remaining after the XV Legion had been "dealt with").

I wasn't insisting, I did state I was speculating and trying to cover everything that could have happened, not merely focusing on what was likely to happen. Well, not everything that could have happened since it seems clear Magnus wouldn't be let off with a slap on the wrist, but things that could plausibly fit into the framework.

I love speculating and wondering if something could work a certain way. It makes for some interesting fluff.

I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt- especially the bits that refer to 40k. Liber Chaotica is much simpler to justify in that sense in that it was clearly written from the perspective of an unstable author. Xenology has the same situation of clear author bias, but in there the presentation of the dissections themselves are made in such a way that the hard facts seems reliable enough, but the conclusions drawn from this are uncertain. Should a codex contradict the conclusions drawn by a human biologist, the xeno source should be given priority since they'd know their own biology. In the same way I'd rate the novel over Visions, because it seems to me that within the context of the 40k world that much of the large artwork of the primachs done in that distinct stylised parchment style was done after the HH. And if an artist was told 'this person fell to chaos' then drawing them as a horribly mutated warp creature makes sense even if you've never seen them.

Although I'm not sure I'm making any sense either. I need to go look up what perspective the body of Visions is done in on Thursday to comment more.

Manchu wrote:I disagree with your opinion. The flaw you've brought up (still looking for it) is an obvious one. Neither that or the green Blood Angel invalidate the whole series. Again, your standard rules out using most if not all GW material.

Additionally, if this picture of Tarik was published in anything but Visions of Death, it would have predated and been superseded by the first three HH novels.

I'm happy to use your standard, I'm just not happy with Visons being canon. And that was just one small example. Visions also has an unprcidented number of captions wrong. With most of the characters ranks being wrong, Captain Fabius for example. It is evident that the writer didn't have much communication with the writers of the HH series.

Morgrim wrote:I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt-

I think this is a good way to look at it.

As noted, Merret was not the only writer of Visions. Some parts, including "The Kaban Project," and the aforementioned section on Prospero's fall were written by Graham McNeill--who wrote Mechanicus and A Thousand Sons. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.


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whatwhat wrote:

Morgrim wrote:I don't view Visions as a very reliable source, just as I take everything in Liber Chaotica with a pinch of salt-

I think this is a good way to look at it.

Lol, of course you do--it's nearly the same thing as what you said!


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As to the picture of Tarik that whatwhat mentioned, doesn't someone have a dream of Tarik with a Chaos star reading Lorgar's book?

Manchu wrote:As noted, Merret was not the only writer of Visions. Some parts, including "The Kaban Project," and the aforementioned section on Prospero's fall were written by Graham McNeill--who wrote Mechanicus and A Thousand Sons. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

That's a short story which has most likely been written completely aside from visions which has simply been included in the book.