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 Mr Morden wrote:
It more. "A emissary of God is on his way to you, you know you have gravely offended Him and that the penalty he has decreed for this is death. You use your forbidden powers to view the armada and the leaders but this does nothing more than confirm your guilt and the punishment that is coming. As such a grave sinner you have several options - repent and throw yourself on the mercy of the emissary - knowing that they may have none or resist and confirm your heresy.

He kinda tries to do both but succeeds at neither - its a pretty human reaction but his culpability is clear in all respects.

Fair enough... I think that is a pretty accurate portrayal of the situation, I touched on this early in the thread but from my point of view Magnus was faced with a choice:

-Turn to chaos

OR

-Die an ignominious death as a traitor
-Everyone you have ever known and loved is slaughtered
-Your planet is bombarded into glass
-The people who did this to you get celebrated as heroes, despite them being the ones crossing the line and disobeying orders (although Magnus did not know this at the time, he finds out later)

I do not want to remark on whether Magnus' choices were right or wrong though. This is about Russ' actions. I suppose you can wrap everything up in "Russ was tricked by Horus and he is absolved of all responsibility for everything that went wrong on Prospero" but I don't buy that. There was some really deep drama between Magnus and Russ that played a huge part in what happened, and Russ is absolutely to blame for that.

 Manchu wrote:
It seemed to me that w1zard was suggesting treachery on tye part of Russ, which is fan fiction levels of absurd.

Then you aren't reading hard enough... I said:

w1zard wrote:
I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.

Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.

You speculated that Horus offered to provide Russ with political cover to disregard the Emperor's orders.

 Manchu wrote:
You speculated that Horus offered to provide Russ with political cover to disregard the Emperor's orders.

And I said that was purely speculation and one of many possibilities because we don't know what Horus said to Russ.

In fairness though "needlessly brutal" is the Wolves MO. I return to my earlier statement that given who and what Russ and his Legion where, given the state of relations between the Space Wolves and the 1K sons and their primarchs respectivly the Emperor HAD to know that this could blow up horriably continueing the police analogy, a domestic dispute has been called in, and the officer you send in to deal with it, is the man the husband is accusing his wife of having an affair with.

now this is eaither (another) example of "the emperor was a total moron" or he didn't really care too much if Magnus and the 1k sons all died anyway because he choose the 1 legion most likely to provoke them to resist

BrianDavion wrote:
now this is eaither (another) example of "the emperor was a total moron" or he didn't really care too much if Magnus and the 1k sons all died anyway because he choose the 1 legion most likely to provoke them to resist

Then why did he order Magnus arrested and not killed? Or even said "if he resists, kill him" or something along those lines?

We know from prior incidents that the emperor had a tendency to involve "rival" legions whenever censuring was involved, and the Wolves were the "rival" legion to the Sons.

But the Emperor ordered Magnus arrested and brought back to Terra ALIVE "by any means necessary". It kinda doesn't mesh with the "I don't care what happens to Magnus theory". (I agree, Magnus' legion was probably expendable though).

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Russ set out from Terra to bring back Magnus alive, something that might not actually be possible and could result in Magnu's death (or Russ's death for that matter). By the time Russ reached Propsero, thanks to Horus's intervening orders, Russ understood his mission to be, to paraphrase the Emperor on Nikaea, visit destruction on Magnus and strike the XVth Legion from history. So the police officer metaphor only works when we're talking about the Emperor's initial orders. If we're talking about what Russ believed he was ordered to do after Horus contacted him, we're not dealing with anything like a police action. Rather, we're talking about an execution. Even so, Leman Russ wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender. The only shred of insubordination Russ possibly showed was in hoping his brother was not as bad as Horus must have made him out to be.

Again, we don't know what Horus said to Russ. It could be something as simple as "I know the emperor ordered you to do this, but I think Magnus is too dangerous to be kept alive, so if you go kill him like I know you want to, I'll back you up politically."

All we know is Horus spoke to Russ and then afterward, Russ disobeyed the emperor's directives. If you want to make that argument... Russ' culpability is tied to what was said between them. Since we do not know this... From the way I see it we can only judge Russ on his actions. I don't think Russ would intentionally betray the Emperor or the Imperium... but I do think that his prejudice toward Magnus allowed Horus to easily manipulate him, and caused him to be way too 'trigger happy' with the whole situation.

Exterminatus-ing Propsero was also needlessly brutal.

You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade Which makes sense, as the Emperor decreed that Horus' orders were to be followed as if they were spoken, again quoting this for the 50th time "from mine own mouth."

Horus does not need to make political backings with Russ and its arguable that it would have no sway on Russ, who grew up feral and whose idea of rule are very viking in nature. He values strength, loyalty and honour, the political sway holds little appeal to him. The only way Horus was going to be able to change the order and keep with Russ' character is if he said "Magnus is too dangerous to capture alive and bringing him to Terra would endanger that world, so the Emperor has sanctioned his extermination. The Emperor commands you to enforce the Edict of Nikaea on Magnus the Red."

However we also know from Prospero Burns that Russ tried to reach out for a peaceful solution through Hawser but the message didn't get received because Hawser was a pawn of chaos. This at least shows that Russ was willing to offer mercy and capture Magnus, but Magnus, through his own actions by making no meaningful attempt to reach out and surrender, signed his own Death warrant.

Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge

w1zard - There's no need to speculate. Horus told Russ his new orders were to kill Magnus. Anything else implies Russ knowingly colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. Speculatively, Horus most probably elaborated with details of Magnus's alleged (but, in fact, not merely alleged) misdeeds, tantamount to Traffick With Ye Warp, to make the new "orders" seem even more plausible.

BrianD - the Emperor knew that Magnus disobeyed his most solemn order under peril of personal destruction as well as destruction of the XVth Legion. If Magnus was so far gone as to disregard the seriousness of the Edict, and the Emperor's own personal warning directly to the Cyclops, then the Emperor could safely conclude that Magnus would most probably resist to his full ability. Hence another full Legion would have to be sent to deal with this and, not coincidentally, the Emperor had made a Legion with this sort of thing in mind, which he further supplemented with anti-psyker capability plus sending the master of his own Custodes just to show without any confusion that Russ's mission enjoyed the full authority of the Emperor himself. In short, Magnus was either going to die at Propsero resisting Leman Russ or be subdued by Russ and taken back to Terra for a fate likely worse than death. It wasn't that the Emperor didn't care whether Prospero might burn or whether the XVth Legion would be stricken. Magnus had already sealed the fate of all his works, including his adoptive homeworld, his adoptive people, and his own Thousand Sons, when he refused to obey the Emperor's Edict. Would things have been much different if Horus had not intervened? Perhaps the whole thing would have been "resolved" over a longer period, but I doubt the result would have been different for Prospero.

Deadshot - you 100% nailed it.

 Deadshot wrote:
You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade...

Valdor initially protested and said "this isn't what the Emperor wanted" or something similar before being overruled by Russ. Russ told Valdor that if he didn't like it he could go back to Terra. Valdor reluctantly declined and said he would follow Russ' lead.

Proof:

 Deadshot wrote:
Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge

And again, the Emperor did not order it and it's not Russ' place to enact that without the Emperor's go ahead.

Both the law and the consquence of breaking the law were laid down by the Emperor himself at Nikaea, which Russ personally attended among other primarchs.

 Manchu wrote:
Both the law and the consquence of breaking the law were laid down by the Emperor himself at Nikaea, which Russ personally attended among other primarchs.

The penalty for murder in some states is the death penalty. That doesn't mean police officers get to shoot murder suspects on sight.

By the same token the Emperor promised to damn Magnus if he broke the edict, but it is not Russ' place to enforce that edict unless the emperor orders him to, which he explicitly did not.

Russ reasonably believed the Emperor had ordered precisely that.

If his orders are "execute Magnus" then the police analogy no longer applies to any degree at all.

The police metaphor is poor because we have been talking about armies all along, rather than any kind of police force.

I brought it up to explain how coercive authority and deadly force interact IRL.

 Manchu wrote:
Russ reasonably believed the Emperor had ordered precisely that.

Again, we don't know that, because we don't know what Horus said to Russ. There is also the fact that Valdor initially argued with Russ, saying Magnus' execution was not what the Emperor wanted. See my quote a couple of posts up.

 Manchu wrote:
w1zard - There's no need to speculate. Horus told Russ his new orders were to kill Magnus. Anything else implies Russ knowingly colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. Speculatively, Horus most probably elaborated with details of Magnus's alleged (but, in fact, not merely alleged) misdeeds, tantamount to Traffick With Ye Warp, to make the new "orders" seem even more plausible.

BrianD - the Emperor knew that Magnus disobeyed his most solemn order under peril of personal destruction as well as destruction of the XVth Legion. If Magnus was so far gone as to disregard the seriousness of the Edict, and the Emperor's own personal warning directly to the Cyclops, then the Emperor could safely conclude that Magnus would most probably resist to his full ability. Hence another full Legion would have to be sent to deal with this and, not coincidentally, the Emperor had made a Legion with this sort of thing in mind, which he further supplemented with anti-psyker capability plus sending the master of his own Custodes just to show without any confusion that Russ's mission enjoyed the full authority of the Emperor himself. In short, Magnus was either going to die at Propsero resisting Leman Russ or be subdued by Russ and taken back to Terra for a fate likely worse than death. It wasn't that the Emperor didn't care whether Prospero might burn or whether the XVth Legion would be stricken. Magnus had already sealed the fate of all his works, including his adoptive homeworld, his adoptive people, and his own Thousand Sons, when he refused to obey the Emperor's Edict. Would things have been much different if Horus had not intervened? Perhaps the whole thing would have been "resolved" over a longer period, but I doubt the result would have been different for Prospero.

Deadshot - you 100% nailed it.

thats what I mean by didn't care. the Emperor knew that in all likelyhood the 1k sons would resist, and it seems didn't much care eaither way.

As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.

w1zard wrote:

We know from prior incidents that the emperor had a tendency to involve "rival" legions whenever censuring was involved, and the Wolves were the "rival" legion to the Sons.

We do? when did the Emperor employ rival legions to censor one another? And don't use Monarchia, because that was where the rivalry between the Word bearers and Ultramarines began, a VERY one sided rivialry I might add. to the Ultramarines the entire incident was simply a regretable case of just doing their job.

BrianD - I see, you meant "didn't care" in the sense that the Emperor resigned himself to the fact that Prospero and its people would likely be collaterally damaged in the attempt to bring Magnus to heel and, furthermore, would probably need to be wiped out anyhow. Sorry for the confusion.

w1zard wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
You are seriously reaching here. We don't need to know what Horus said, we simply need to know that Russ followed chain of command. Let's not forget another major name in this battle was Constantine Valdor, Chief Custodian, who also went along with the lie that Horus told. The Emperor's most loyal servant followed the Warmaster's change of plan, so that means that even the Custodes recognise the authority of the Warmaster in the Great Crusade...

Valdor initially protested and said "this isn't what the Emperor wanted" or something similar before being overruled by Russ. Russ told Valdor that if he didn't like it he could go back to Terra. Valdor reluctantly declined and said he would follow Russ' lead.

Proof:

Spoiler:

The early stages of the Prospero campaign were to open a rift between the two champions of the Imperium, ironically due to the iron-clad loyalty of both commanders. For where Russ had concluded that to best serve the Imperium Magnus must die, Valdor would not deviate from the Emperor’s orders to take the Crimson King alive. While Valdor would eventually defer to Russ as the Emperor’s chosen commander of the Censure fleet, relations between the two commanders would remain strained during the fighting on the Thousand Sons’ home world of Prospero.

Tellingly, those of the Remembrancer Order who had accompanied Valdor were dismissed and returned to Terra under Russ' orders long before the fleet departed on the final leg of its journey.

 Deadshot wrote:
Exterminatus was entirely warranted. Again, the Emperor said "Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light." Considering the entire planet of Prospero were followers of Magnus, being the society he was raised in and later would become ruler of, that surely qualifies them as being marked for death. Further, he said '"If you treat with the Warp, Magnus, I shall visit destruction upon you. And your Legion's name will be struck from the Imperial records for all time." Wiping all record of the Thousand Sons and Magnus would be a little hard with a bunch of Psykers just left to pick up the pieces of Magnus' body. We know that the Primarchs and Space Marines are honour bound from speaking of the missing Legions, with even Horus refusing to break that vow during a Traitor's war council. But human followers of that Legions are just as likely to go spread the word and make records of the lost XVth Legion. Especially ones that value recording and knowledge

And again, the Emperor did not order it and it's not Russ' place to enact that without the Emperor's go ahead.

The Emperor DID order it because Horus ordered it. "From mine own mouth" is the words the Emperor used. Meaning "If Horus says jump, treat it as if I personally commanded you to leap and smash your skull on the nearest moon." The chain of command specifically laid out by the Emperor was that what Horus says goes. Its not even a case of "if our orders differ" because the assumption was that the orders would never differ. Horus was the "Mouth of the Emperor," kind of how the Mouth of Sauron from Return of the King is used - his lord and master speaks through him, he is simply a mouthpiece for the overlord's words.


If Valdor had truly believed that what Russ was doing was not sanctioned, that Russ was disobeying an order from the Emperor, he would have cut down Russ there and then. Its his job and in his core psyche. He simply disagreed that killing was the best bet, and differed. BUT, if he had suspected Horus was not on side, and that Russ was disobeying, which he wasn't, Valdor would have stopped Russ.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Russ reasonably believed the Emperor had ordered precisely that.

Again, we don't know that, because we don't know what Horus said to Russ. There is also the fact that Valdor initially argued with Russ, saying Magnus' execution was not what the Emperor wanted. See my quote a couple of posts up.

Again, his argument was that "That wasn't what the Emperor told me," not "We don't do that sort of thing." To which Russ undoubtedly replied "Well Horus said to do it and if Horus said it, it must be true," to which Valdor replied "Okay, makes sense!"

 Manchu wrote:
As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.

Why? I agree that it is unlikely, but it is a possibility. To say that is impossible would be fanboyism. I for one could definitely see Russ disobeying an order from the Emperor if he REALLY believed in something. He was the kind of person who believed in honor above anything else, even following orders.

I suppose you can wrap everything up in "Russ was tricked by Horus and he is absolved of all responsibility for everything that went wrong on Prospero" but I don't buy that. There was some really deep drama between Magnus and Russ that played a huge part in what happened, and Russ is absolutely to blame for that.

How is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Russ's shoulders?

To the extent that you're saying Russ was actually a traitor and betrayed the Emperor in order to pursue a vendetta against Magnus, it seems to play into the larger fanboy theme you (and, to be fair, many others over the years) are proposing that Magnus was actually loyal. The fact is, Magnus was very clearly disloyal whereas Russ was very clearly loyal. Fans who want to revise and rehabilitate the character of Magnus always get around to running down Russ, eventually.

It's ironic to imply Russ disobeyed the Emperor when the only hint of disobedience he actually showed in the matter was, when he believed his mission was to kill Magnus, he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender - that is, explicitly contrary to the vendetta smear.

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
As explained above, you either acknowledge that Horus "updated" Russ's orders or you imply Russ colluded with Horus to disobey the Emperor. The latter is absurd.

Why? I agree that it is unlikely, but it is a possibility. To say that is impossible would be fanboyism. I for one could definitely see Russ disobeying an order from the Emperor if he REALLY believed in something. He was the kind of person who believed in honor above anything else, even following orders.

No he wasn't. In fact it was just the oppisite and the books make numerous referance to this, that Russ knew he was the "executioner" it was a dirty busniess, where he and his legion did "the jobs no one else wanted/where willing to do" it was only after Prosperio that Russ and the Space Wolves additude shifted to "do what we think is right and damn anyone who tries to tell us differently" one which is perfectly understandable as they've already been tricked into doing something by someone who claims to be speaking for the Emperor

 Manchu wrote:
How is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Russ's shoulders?

it isn't and I never claimed it was. Let me turn that around on you, how is the ill will between Russ and Magnus to be laid exclusively on Magnus' shoulders?

 Manchu wrote:
To the extent that you're saying Russ was actually a traitor and betrayed the Emperor in order to pursue a vendetta against Magnus, it seems to play into the larger fanboy theme you (and, to be fair, many others over the years) are proposing that Magnus was actually loyal.

Magnus was not loyal. Everything he did was for the good of his legion and the Imperium as a whole but he broke a whole lot of rules including the big one laid down at Nikaea and in general was an arrogant ass. This isn't about what Magnus did though, this is about Russ' actions.

 Manchu wrote:
The fact is, Magnus was very clearly disloyal whereas Russ was very clearly loyal. Fans who want to revise and rehabilitate the character of Magnus always get around to running down Russ, eventually.

It's ironic to imply Russ disobeyed the Emperor when the only hint of disobedience he actually showed in the matter was, when he believed his mission was to kill Magnus, he still wanted to give Magnus a chance to surrender.

It is funny that you are so dismissive of the possibility that Russ placed his own vendetta above his orders from the Emperor despite it being intentionally left vague by the authors. It is also funny that you believe being tricked by Horus seems to absolve him of all responsibility for his actions, despite Valdor's protestations, despite similar actions having large repercussions when done by others, and despite the fact that others have been condemned as traitors for being tricked by chaos in the same manner.

If anyone is guilty of fanboyism it isn't me.

BrianDavion wrote:
...Russ knew he was the "executioner" it was a dirty busniess, where he and his legion did "the jobs no one else wanted/where willing to do" it was only after Prosperio that Russ and the Space Wolves additude shifted to "do what we think is right and damn anyone who tries to tell us differently" one which is perfectly understandable as they've already been tricked into doing something by someone who claims to be speaking for the Emperor

Which is a whole lot of introspection for a chapter who believes the 1K sons got what they deserved and that Russ was totally justified. Which is to say that I don't buy that. The Space Wolves had always had those tendencies.

Which is a whole lot of introspection for a chapter who believes the 1K sons got what they deserved.

Almost like they have deep complicated feelings on the matter like real people often do.

At this point, you are calling me a fanboy for re-stating to you what actually happened in the story. So, I guess we've reached an impasse.

BrianDavion wrote:
Almost like they have deep complicated feelings on the matter like real people often do.

I don't understand how someone can be ashamed of something, and yet simultaneously hold the view that they did nothing wrong.

They were tricked by someone they completely trusted. Being tricked doesn't make the person who was tricked wrong. But it does make them less trusting. And not being wrong doesn't mean they don't regret being tricked.

 Manchu wrote:
At this point, you are calling me a fanboy for re-stating to you what actually happened in the story. So, I guess we've reached an impasse.

Likewise, you are calling me a fanboy for simply pointing out that "Russ did nothing wrong" is just as wrong as "Magnus did nothing wrong". What happened on Prospero is not as simple as "Wolves good guy, Thousand Sons bad guys", and trying to break it down to that is an insult to the narrative. It is a lot more ambiguous than that. I suppose if we have not reached common ground in 12 pages that we will have to agree to disagree.

What did Russ do wrong?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
You won't find any reasonable person willing to take that silly bait.

we know from Russ' own lips whatever Horus told him was eneugh to provoke a more agressive response, perhaps Horus simply told him the truth? that Magnus' actions directly threatened Terra, that he has been consorting with and making deals with denzines of the warp. The truth, the FULL truth about Magnus would be IMHO eneugh to damn him

Quite. The emperor made a very clear decree as to what would happen to anyone (but very obviously magnus in particular) that continued those practices.

w1zard wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
At this point, you are calling me a fanboy for re-stating to you what actually happened in the story. So, I guess we've reached an impasse.

Likewise, you are calling me a fanboy for simply pointing out that "Russ did nothing wrong" is just as wrong as "Magnus did nothing wrong". What happened on Prospero is not as simple as "Wolves good guy, Thousand Sons bad guys", and trying to break it down to that is an insult to the narrative. It is a lot more ambiguous than that. I suppose if we have not reached common ground in 12 pages that we will have to agree to disagree.

I entirely disagree. The fact is, Imperium = good, Chaos = bad, and therefore Wolves are entirely the good guys. Russ DID do nothing wrong while Magnus' arrogancr and ambition led to his own distruction. He may be a tragic figure but certainly not a tragic hero. He knew the rules and broke them willingly for his own vision of the Greater good and was punished for it. That's all the narrative boils down to. How he was punished, or why he was punished so severely, is a seperate argument entirely.

Manchu wrote:What did Russ do wrong?

Like every kid in detention for doing as their father said and hitting the bully back - winning the fight. Not just Prospero, but being on a winning side. The further into the 21st century we get, the more edgy people try to be, picking holes in hero characters and trying to subvert characters into a more anti-hero or anti-villain because they just dont like their favourite character being a bad guy or loser. Primarchs and the Emperor especially because they are pinnacle humanity, and readers cant accept that it really is as simple as Good vs Bad. The Emperor is constantly labelled a benevolent tyrant as an insult rather than a fact, and how withdraw and aloof he wad, rather than recognise the necessity of his actions as part of a greater plan. Likewise, people fail to understand that Magnus single-handedly doomed humanity to an eternity of being prayed on by Daemons like Odyssian sea beasts, while also almost costing the Loyalists the Heresy, and all of it through his own ambitions.

Russ' crime was that GW made his Legion into a Space Marines BUT BETTER chapter, and that he won the Battle of Prospero.

For reiteration

False Gods p405
'But what of Magnus' asked Maloghurst urgently, 'What happens when Russ returns him to Terra?'

Horus smiled. 'Calm yourself, Mal. I have already contacted my brother Russ and illuminated him with the full breadth of Magnus's treacherous use of daemonic spells and conjurations. He was... suitably angry, and I believe I have convinced him that to return Magnus to Terra would be a waste of time and effort'

and also

A Thousand Sons, p535.
He saw the honeyed words of Horus and the sinister urgings of Constantin Valdor, each spoken with very different purposes, but designed to sway Leman Russ towards a destination of total destruction.