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beast_gts wrote:

ValentineGames wrote:

How so? They only recast GW and FW.
You don't see perry and Rubicon getting recasts.
So how are they all cancer on our hobby?

Or are we labelling GW and FW (companies) as a hobby again?

I've bought Warlord tanks on eBay that turned out to be recast.

So like FW they were actually half decent and not gak?

Part of the reason recasters might have better quality control is that whilst they do have an impact on sales; they are likely selling FAR fewer models. So their production setup is likely geared to low scale production not mass production. As such:

1) What casting system they use likely endures far less wear and tear so possible errors and issues with older moulds just isn't a problem for them.
Of course chances are they are also using moulds that might need replacing far more often so never get the volume of production wear and tear that official ones get

2) Small scale meals more chance for them to quality check the results for each order that goes out; and with more time than those typically producing for mass sale

3) Because their overheads are drastically lower and because they have nothing to pay for product support they can afford to spend more time checking parts and replacing any failed castings.

4) They produce far less so there are fewer customers which means any complaints appear to be far fewer in number. Even if the actual number of failings as a percentage of the total they produce is more error prone than that of FW. * That most forums don't allow chat about recasters and quality aspects it might also be that the actual reports of failed castings is far fewer online than it might be in reality - cheaper prices and that its a "recasting" might also make some more tolerant/accepting of errors than if they'd ordered from FW. **


IT's mostly the same as why many home castings (not recastings) can appear to have far fewer errors than FW produces. The average person home casting isn't producing in volume.



* If FW ships 1000 models with 25% errors that is 250 problems to be resolved
If a recaster ships 10 models with 50% errors then that is only 5 problems to be resolved.

The recaster still has a higher number of errors shipped, but because the overall number of customers is so much less it appears. Note these numbers are totally random and just used to prove a point.

** I'm not discounting personal experiences here, but speaking of the market as a whole.

I think the price hike is gak (anything that cost more money is gunna be gak). However, it's not a super big deal. The game is expensive (for things made of plastic/resin that physically probably cost feth all each to actually produce, the cost is in the intellectual development, staffing, production and design). Moreover, with inflation everything gets more expensive. I'm not super phased, I will still buy. I think people here have a conniption over nothing really big all the time (Dakkadakka comments are known for it). For example, my last forgeworld purchase was https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/Necromunda-Hired-Guns-Collection-2018 . Cost $90 AUD now, was $86 before. I don't really give a rats ass it is what it is now.

Last things I bought from FW were Epic Warhounds, and only because I really, really wanted them to round out a 5k points army, and was a bit flush at the time.
FW has pretty much always been in the 'nope, that's just too expensive' bracket.for me. Generally superb models ofc, but just too far the wrong side of the VFM equation. When 30K got going I priced up an Iron Warriors army, and just laughed at the result

 Peregrine wrote:

 chimeara wrote:
All the prices I'm seeing line up with show prices. Nothing new to me.

That's because their show prices were already massively inflated and no sane person ever paid them. Now they're the only choice unless you live in the UK.

Apparently you've not been to a convention with a FW booth. By the time you elbow your way to the booth, you'll find most of their stock gone already. Last LVO my buddy spent ~700 USD at the Forgeworld booth and paid about ~150 over internet price since it was catalog price. When I pointed this out, his reply was, 'True. But I got to buy it from FW in person.'

I think it's going to be a bubble of grumpy hurrumphs that will pop and then it will be business as usual.

"Wait just a minute Mr. Dealer, are you saying you're rising the cost of your crack by 25%? Well that's nonsense. Time for me to get clean." , said no addict ever.

What I've learned from this thread....

More recasters and 3d prints are coming.
Many recaster's quality is higher than FW quality.
All this glut will find its way to Ebay.

Well I buy my FW off ebay, and I won't be able to tell its fake, and neither will other people, so not a big deal?

It's like FW wants to help the recasters out. Seriously, hiking the prices is going to make people want to buy from recasters, or at the very least from the secondary market for genuine FW stuff (like on eBay). If enough hobbyists vote with their wallets maybe, just maybe, FW will realize what a disastrous mistake they made. Probably not, but maybe.

 Overread wrote:
Part of the reason recasters might have better quality control is that whilst they do have an impact on sales; they are likely selling FAR fewer models. So their production setup is likely geared to low scale production not mass production. As such:

1) What casting system they use likely endures far less wear and tear so possible errors and issues with older moulds just isn't a problem for them.
Of course chances are they are also using moulds that might need replacing far more often so never get the volume of production wear and tear that official ones get

2) Small scale meals more chance for them to quality check the results for each order that goes out; and with more time than those typically producing for mass sale

3) Because their overheads are drastically lower and because they have nothing to pay for product support they can afford to spend more time checking parts and replacing any failed castings.

4) They produce far less so there are fewer customers which means any complaints appear to be far fewer in number. Even if the actual number of failings as a percentage of the total they produce is more error prone than that of FW. * That most forums don't allow chat about recasters and quality aspects it might also be that the actual reports of failed castings is far fewer online than it might be in reality - cheaper prices and that its a "recasting" might also make some more tolerant/accepting of errors than if they'd ordered from FW.

But you could make the same argument for any other instance of knock-off Chinese products, like electronics and clothing, yet they're universally known for inferior quality. I can't think of any product where the knock-offs are known for better quality; economies of scale generally work in the advantage of a company with industrial processes and dedicated QC personnel, not the garage business where the maker is also doing QC and shipping.

(rest of this not aimed at you directly, just general comments)

Most Westerners will buy properly licensed electronics and other luxury goods despite the prevalence of Chinese knock-offs, on account of some mixture of OEM after-sale support, easy availability, and higher quality offsetting what is typically not that much of a price difference.

So look at Forge World with respect to those reasons. After-sale support is limited to QC, because these are model kits, not computers with warranty. For most of us you can't buy FW locally, so you're going to be making an online order and waiting for shipping anyways. The quality for Forge World is really rather appalling, as compared to stuff from eg Victoria Miniatures it's full of mold lines, flash, occasional slips, and broken and bent pieces all over the place. And the price was absolutely astronomical before, let alone after this price hike, while the illegitimate ripoffs are far lower cost.

Most people I've talked to have said that they'd, hypothetically, put up with more QC issues if it meant getting FW models for a third of the price. That's a trade-off between quality and price. But if recasters have fewer QC issues at a fraction of the price, then really the only remaining impetus to buy legit is a desire to do the legally correct thing. And boy, that is a really bad thing to rely on as a business.

Forge World's situation strikes me as less like Apple or Microsoft electronics, and more like Louis Vuitton handbags or Beats By Dre. Their prices are considerably higher than that of competitors in their domain (third-party), and they don't offer any intrinsic superiority in their product compared to that of the unlicensed copiers (recasters). If it were 2008 this would be less of an issue, but it's 2018, China is now accessible to the average Westerner through sites like Aliexpress and Taobao, and GW/FW can't afford to ignore that reality.

That's not even touching on their bizarre policies regarding stocking, with random products in the FW line being unavailable for years or retired without warning. I don't know what I'm supposed to do about my Renegade Militia army if I want to expand it, as I can't tell legitimate from recast on eBay. I suspect there are a lot of players who simply wouldn't care, and don't have any qualms about buying recast OOP models.

I really don't want Forge World to disappear, but recasters are a problem of FW's own making, and that means it's their problem to solve. Their prices are just so out of line with the service they provide, and price hikes like this only exacerbate and call attention to the issue.

Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

SirWeeble wrote:
I just ordered a bunch of DKOK deathriders - luckily before FW changed their prices. Unfortunately it looks like going forward they're going to be hiking their already steep prices by 25% or so for US customers. Also - apparently less availability. Quite a few items available in the UK are not available in the US now.

Does anyone know if there will still be a way to buy from the UK? I really didn't mind saving up and making a large purchase all at once to get free express shipping. This 'convenience' of faster and cheaper shipping really is moot if we have to pay 25% more.

Goodbye ForgeWorld, don't let the door hit you on the way out!

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Gotta know the right ones then I guess.

Without confirming or denying that I personally use recasters... I can confirm that the quality of items I have seen from recasters is consistently better then Forge World.

Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Did you just pirate-speak an opinion?

I don't even agree with you, but you're getting an exalt for that one.

I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

While the price hike doesn’t affect me while I’m in the U.K., I get sent over seas for log periods and have bought FW while away, so it does affect me indirectly, I won’t be buying FW until this gets sorted out.

 Formosa wrote:
I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

I think the worst I've seen was from a friend as well, some random recaster site that none of us had heard of. Every gun was warped like a noodle, it was garbage.

We usually only do recasts for very specific things- things no longer produced, individual components that you can only get by purchasing an entirely new model, etc. The recaster we use is more than willing to make a turret component or infantry torso on its own and sell it for a reasonable price. It's a lot easier than trying to wait another month for FW to replace it. And this recaster is outstanding, and his resin is still darker than FW, but now that obvious knock-off stuff. You would think it was actual FW resin until you held it against FW resin.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, the recasters arr typically worse.

Did you just pirate-speak an opinion?

I don't even agree with you, but you're getting an exalt for that one.

I'm just glad someone caught that. That's my second pirate joke in the forum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm just glad someone caught that. That's my second pirate joke in the forum.

These things just don't slip me eye, ye swabbie.

 Formosa wrote:
I used to buy recasts but the quality took a real dive when they shifted to grey resin, at one point they used the EXACT same resin as forge world to the point you literally could not tell the difference, then the Calth boxset came out and it was cheaper to buy that than go recast, I’d never buy tanks or anything larger than basic infantry from them though as I’ve seen some real crap from mates.

While the price hike doesn’t affect me while I’m in the U.K., I get sent over seas for log periods and have bought FW while away, so it does affect me indirectly, I won’t be buying FW until this gets sorted out.

Again, while neither confirming nor denying my personal ownership of chinacast models, I've seen very little issue with large kits. Some, such as rhino's are prone to breaking at thin points, but larger kits have by and large been utterly perfect with zero defects. Compare it to the Spartan I got from Forgeworld that had .75" thick blocks of resin directly attached to my tracks that took hours to shave off properly, or the Eldar Nightwing whose wings were so utterly warped that they were impossible to reshape and make the kit look decent...

All I know is I have never once bought a large kit from FW that wasn't defective in some manner.

FYI advocating illegal activities such as IP piracy including recasting is not allowed on Dakka Dakka.

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Yeah, every single time I have had an issue with a model from FW, they replaced part if not all of it until it met my standards. If it is a bad cast, let them know and they’ll replace it. Most of the time they express shipped it back too. I have never left an interaction with GW/FW’s Customer Service unsatisfied. I am not saying the price hike isn’t stupid. But there is quality to be had with GW/FW.

Median Trace wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Let's be realistic about recaster quality, it's far from the utopian ideal people keep presenting it as. I've seen a lot of recasts that are much worse than legitimate kits, to the point that they're suitable only for throwing in the trash. Horrible mold slip, parts broken in shipping, brittle resin that chips if you look at it too hard, bubbles everywhere, etc. If you buy recasts you're taking a gamble on getting acceptable quality, and I doubt you're getting FW/GW's solid return policy.

Yeah, every single time I have had an issue with a model from FW, they replaced part if not all of it until it met my standards. If it is a bad cast, let them know and they’ll replace it. Most of the time they express shipped it back too. I have never left an interaction with GW/FW’s Customer Service unsatisfied. I am not saying the price hike isn’t stupid. But there is quality to be had with GW/FW.

It varies from recaster to recaster. Some have amazing customer service and will replace things and send extra stuff. Others not so much. Honestly I would say overall quality tends to be better for recasters, but language barriers are a thing. If you have a problem it is much easier to explain to a native speaker at FW/GW than via pictures and simplified English to a recaster. I think ultimately the real issue is models can lose rule support if they become too unpopular or discontinued for too long. The power level only units from Forgeworld are a good example of what could go wrong. Although there are also things with rule support like the custom Hammerhead turrets that you currently can only get from a recaster even though there is demand for them.

Yep. China stuff has been great! GW rules and narrative have beenaughable. Gone is the thinly veiled parody of contemporary empires in decline through machinations of chaos and instead we have ... Orruks? Aelfs? Primaris weenies? Yuk. Gw can dry up and blow away.

A resin made of gold now turned platinum, and terrible rules where units vary from bad to hilarously overpowered from edition to edition. Hope their karma finally reaches FW for their greed and poor rules writing and they go bankrupt.

I sympathise with you non-UKers, but something like this was inevitable if they introduced regional pricing. I’m going to compare with USD given that applies to most of you here, but the same logic applies to other currencies too. I’ve just had a browse around the main GW site and the FW site, switching between GBP and USD, and it looks as though they’re applying pretty much the same conversion as they do for the rest of their products – the USD price is the GBP price multiplied by something in the region of 1.6 or 1.7, then adjusted to a round-looking number.

It’s effectively a FW price hike for you guys because the GBP is weak at the moment, but you’ve been at the mercy of exchange rates whenever thinking about ordering FW. Just a quick search shows that in August 2015, the GBP was worth nearly 1.6 USD – so the new FW US prices are the same as what you would have paid if you had ordered three years ago. In August 2008 you could get very nearly 2 USD for 1 GBP – so you’d have been getting the better deal with these prices. With the admittedly small number of data points above, the fact that the GBP has been worth anything from a little over 1USD to 2USD over the last 10 years should be a clear explanation for why they’ve set the general USD prices across GW the way they have.

The GBP may go up again. It may even go up again enough that you’re better off with the regional prices, though given the uncertainty surrounding the looming Brexit I doubt that will happen any time soon. You’ve had a period of unusually “cheap” FW with the weak GBP, and it’s unfortunate that it’s had to come to an end.

This is always going to be an issue with regional pricing vs ordering direct from the country of origin. Any company setting regional prices doesn’t want to have to fluctuate them as the exchange rate changes, so they’re always going to want to set them based on the normal long-term variation of exchange rates between the two currencies such that they can make a satisfactory profit unless the exchange rate goes nuts. In addition to the exchange rate, they need to factor in warehousing and distribution, freight, customs, import duties and any other local taxes. Plus, if their analyists are worth their salt they’ll take into account local competition, popularity in the market, and then average wages and disposable income of their likely customers in the market. It’s the local conditions that mean price comparisons between countries difficult to make. It may be irritating to learn that you’re paying more in USD than a British collector does in GBP – but then I believe the average American earns a fair bit more than the average Brit, so that might make them think that you can afford to pay more. Are wargamers ‘average’? You’d have to ask the analysts.

It’s perhaps important to bring up Brexit again, since it might be a driver in this. It seems more likely that the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal in place, potentially reverting to WTO rules rather than bilateral trade deals, which may increase the costs for British companies exporting goods. It may be that GW looked at their figures, realised that they were making less profit off FW than they could be if they expanded their regional pricing policy to cover it, and that post-Brexit conditions threaten to eat a bit more of the profit margin away. It’s easy to see why the accountants might want to apply the local prices and boost the profit margins now so that the post-Brexit figures don’t look so ominous.

I feel like I should also say something about who to blame for this. It’s easy to see that FW prices have gone up and then rage at FW as an entity, but I reckon this has GW accountancy department written all over it.

 Bellerophon wrote:
I sympathise with you non-UKers, but something like this was inevitable if they introduced regional pricing. I’m going to compare with USD given that applies to most of you here, but the same logic applies to other currencies too. I’ve just had a browse around the main GW site and the FW site, switching between GBP and USD, and it looks as though they’re applying pretty much the same conversion as they do for the rest of their products – the USD price is the GBP price multiplied by something in the region of 1.6 or 1.7, then adjusted to a round-looking number.

It’s effectively a FW price hike for you guys because the GBP is weak at the moment, but you’ve been at the mercy of exchange rates whenever thinking about ordering FW. Just a quick search shows that in August 2015, the GBP was worth nearly 1.6 USD – so the new FW US prices are the same as what you would have paid if you had ordered three years ago. In August 2008 you could get very nearly 2 USD for 1 GBP – so you’d have been getting the better deal with these prices. With the admittedly small number of data points above, the fact that the GBP has been worth anything from a little over 1USD to 2USD over the last 10 years should be a clear explanation for why they’ve set the general USD prices across GW the way they have.

The GBP may go up again. It may even go up again enough that you’re better off with the regional prices, though given the uncertainty surrounding the looming Brexit I doubt that will happen any time soon. You’ve had a period of unusually “cheap” FW with the weak GBP, and it’s unfortunate that it’s had to come to an end.

This is always going to be an issue with regional pricing vs ordering direct from the country of origin. Any company setting regional prices doesn’t want to have to fluctuate them as the exchange rate changes, so they’re always going to want to set them based on the normal long-term variation of exchange rates between the two currencies such that they can make a satisfactory profit unless the exchange rate goes nuts. In addition to the exchange rate, they need to factor in warehousing and distribution, freight, customs, import duties and any other local taxes. Plus, if their analyists are worth their salt they’ll take into account local competition, popularity in the market, and then average wages and disposable income of their likely customers in the market. It’s the local conditions that mean price comparisons between countries difficult to make. It may be irritating to learn that you’re paying more in USD than a British collector does in GBP – but then I believe the average American earns a fair bit more than the average Brit, so that might make them think that you can afford to pay more. Are wargamers ‘average’? You’d have to ask the analysts.

It’s perhaps important to bring up Brexit again, since it might be a driver in this. It seems more likely that the UK will crash out of the EU without a deal in place, potentially reverting to WTO rules rather than bilateral trade deals, which may increase the costs for British companies exporting goods. It may be that GW looked at their figures, realised that they were making less profit off FW than they could be if they expanded their regional pricing policy to cover it, and that post-Brexit conditions threaten to eat a bit more of the profit margin away. It’s easy to see why the accountants might want to apply the local prices and boost the profit margins now so that the post-Brexit figures don’t look so ominous.

I feel like I should also say something about who to blame for this. It’s easy to see that FW prices have gone up and then rage at FW as an entity, but I reckon this has GW accountancy department written all over it.

A thousand per cent this. FW and GW aren't gouging people while twirling moustaches. They're responding to a pretty dire economic fallout coming down the tracks by trying to get ahead of it.

Our friends in the UK crashing out of the EU is going to have a serious effect on pricing and import duties. I'm in my late 30s and the older I get, the more I realise that voting for stuff actually has a genuine impact on my day to day life.

~60$ for 5 resin dudes is too much regardless of politics.

 Shadenuat wrote:
~60$ for 5 resin dudes is too much regardless of Politics.

I'm just saying that stuff like this doesn't happen in a vacuum. And just wait til ourselves in the EU slap an import tax on this stuff like we do with US luxury goods. GW could conceivably be looking at a huge hit as EU customers look for cheaper alternatives.

Managers generally get thrown out of the window from 20 stories office building for proposing this, but perhaps with all the things happening around they should, you know,

lower the prices.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Managers generally get thrown out of the window from 20 stories office building for proposing this, but perhaps with all the things happening around they should, you know,

lower the prices.

They've never, ever, taken this approach, though. They should. It's how Ryanair operate and look how successful they've been. The only thing is, you might have to sacrifice some of the bells and whistles. Even reduce packaging or something in order to cut extraneous costs.

They could get rid of GW stores and make room for gaming stores...
Crazy as it sounds it works for everyone else.