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I am seeing a weird interaction in the following rules that I would like opinion from the community on

Firstly Dance of nightmares made flesh is the silent shroud special rule it states
Subtract 1 from enemy leadership while they are within 6" of any units for your army with this form. In addition, whenever your opponent takes a morale test for a unit within 6" of any units from your army with this form they must roll 2 dice and discard the lowest result

Secondly Irillyths entry states
The Spectre of death: All enemy models within 18" of Irillyth must roll an additional dice when making morale tests, discarding the lowest rolled before determining the result.

Now in a scenario where an enemy unit is in 18" of Irillyth and 6" of a Silent shroud harlie the enemy must roll 2 dice for dance of nightmares and an extra dice for spectre of death.
That means the opponent is rolling 3 dice on the leadership test.

Now both Spectre and Dance both require discard of the lowed dice.

this leaves you with 2 dice rolled for the leadership test.

Key phrase under morale test in the BRB is "to take a morale test roll a dice and add the number of models from that unit who have been slain this turn"

If you roll 2 dice instead then that changes the dynamic of the morale test substantially meaning an average of +7 to any casualtie counted.

Thoughts? is this workable as a tactic? any major RAW interpretations that screw it up?

eldritchstormer wrote:
I am seeing a weird interaction in the following rules that I would like opinion from the community on

Firstly Dance of nightmares made flesh is the silent shroud special rule it states
Subtract 1 from enemy leadership while they are within 6" of any units for your army with this form. In addition, whenever your opponent takes a morale test for a unit within 6" of any units from your army with this form they must roll 2 dice and discard the lowest result

Secondly Irillyths entry states
The Spectre of death: All enemy models within 18" of Irillyth must roll an additional dice when making morale tests, discarding the lowest rolled before determining the result.

Now in a scenario where an enemy unit is in 18" of Irillyth and 6" of a Silent shroud harlie the enemy must roll 2 dice for dance of nightmares and an extra dice for spectre of death.
That means the opponent is rolling 3 dice on the leadership test.

Now both Spectre and Dance both require discard of the lowed dice.

this leaves you with 2 dice rolled for the leadership test.

Key phrase under morale test in the BRB is "to take a morale test roll a dice and add the number of models from that unit who have been slain this turn"

If you roll 2 dice instead then that changes the dynamic of the morale test substantially meaning an average of +7 to any casualtie counted.

Thoughts? is this workable as a tactic? any major RAW interpretations that screw it up?

You discard both lowest dice. Each rule happens independently. Remember, sequencing forces you to resolve one rule at a time even though they happen at the "same" time. You roll 3 dice, discard one for one rule, discard another one for the other rule.

As you’ve stated, the result of a Morale test is “a dice” plus casualties minus Ld.

So you’d be ignoring the Core Rules by trading to claim 2D6 is valid.

Best way to handle is roll 3D6 then discard the lowest two. That fits the intent of the rules and doesn’t break the Core Rule.

Sorry but that logic of discarding both dice completely fails for me. Both effects are applied to a single morale test. There is zero precedent for applying rules independently as far as I am aware - (if you have any I would love to hear it).


we are in agreement that three dice are rolled. Both rules say discard the lowest. The proposal to discard the lowest and second lowest seems at odds with the rule as written to me that is a house rule- not a bad one as it solves the problem- but not a rules based argument either (which admittedly is difficult cause this case is weird)

As for the 1d6 morale test, thats the whole point. Codex trumps rulebook. rulebook says 1d6 codex says roll 3 and discard the lowest. That logically leaves 2 dice.

If you are looking for a similar rule, psychic tests are on 2d6 but for some things they are 1d6 because of the units rule (e.g. horrors). Codex rules can change BRB rules ... after all the harlie capability expressly says roll 2 dice and you wouldn't argue that the rule book says roll 1?

Any other arguments that you can present?

eldritchstormer wrote:
Sorry but that logic of discarding both dice completely fails for me. Both effects are applied to a single morale test. There is zero precedent for applying rules independently as far as I am aware - (if you have any I would love to hear it).

Battle primer pg. 4 sequencing. One rules is resolved first, then the other.

Thats an interesting way to take it. I read sequencing as being for rules that have an interactive component like does x move first or y when both have ability to move (1 example is explodes and soulburst . These 2 rules are complimentary.

But let's walk it through.

You would always choose to apply the 2 dice first and then the +1
So 3dice for the test.

Outcome of the test is a 3 a 5 and a 6

Both remove the lowest dice now happen simultaneously so by your logic you would have to sequence

Rule a says remove the 3
Rule b says remove the 3

Irillyths rule is applied to the dice roll first and the lowest dice is removed.
Now that the lowest dice had been removed the condition required for the harlie has already been met (3 is removed)

So the 5 and 6 would then remain no?

Corollary if there was a 2d6 test (instead of 3 in this case) and you had 2 abilities saying remove the lowest dice like you wouldnt remove both dice!

If I have a set of three numbers, 1, 2 and 3, and am told to remove the lowest, I remove 1. If I am then told to remove the lowest again, I remove 2.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If I have a set of three numbers, 1, 2 and 3, and am told to remove the lowest, I remove 1. If I am then told to remove the lowest again, I remove 2.

Nit often this happens, but I agree.

This is similiar to this thread : https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/762699.page

If you resolve Dance of nightmares made flesh first you roll 2 dice and discard the lowest roll. Then you resolve Spectre of death, you roll another dice, compare the two dice, and discard the lowest roll. But if you resolve Spectre of Death first you roll two dice discarding the lowest roll. Now Dance of nightmares made flesh tells you to roll two dice, which you already did. Do you roll another two dice, and discard the lowest roll ? That leaves you with two dice, which is wrong. Do you ignore Dance of nightmares made flesh, because you already rolled two dice and discarded the lowest roll ? I dont know.

You roll no dice, put everything away, email GW and don’t play again until FAQ’d.

Hah yeah I'm deliberately staying clear of playing this. Still interesting though.

Add in a Shadow Specter Exarch for another d6. Effectively the same rule (albeit with a different name so not the same rule) as Irillyth, but only works within 6" of the Exarch. Ultimately though, you're going to have a hard time getting anyone to agree with your view. If it did work that way, all of the sudden, leadership effects would be a viable (and quite broken) strategy.