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It's a scam because if I could convince the UK site to accept a US address I'd be paying considerably less money. It doesn't matter how much money I make, the price doesn't magically become the same in both countries just because I'm a billionaire instead of poor. And it's ridiculous to suggest that prices should be set as a percentage of the buyer's income instead of a single GBP value.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Peregrine wrote: It's a scam because if I could convince the UK site to accept a US address I'd be paying considerably less money. It doesn't matter how much money I make, the price doesn't magically become the same in both countries just because I'm a billionaire instead of poor. And it's ridiculous to suggest that prices should be set as a percentage of the buyer's income instead of a single GBP value.
That's not my argument.
My argument is that FW has raised the costs to cover the weak pound and the cost of selling in your territory but have offset the cost by allowing for local shipping.
The rise in price makes FW comparable to other companies selling their goods in other territories.
It's also outrageous that as a UK consumer I can't buy a T-Shirt from USA for the $10 it's advertised in US but instead pay $30 because I live in UK.
My income argument is to show that the price increase really is negligible and that sadly this is the result of the current economic climate.
UK customers have as much legitimate cause to argue that FW is expensive but their doesn't seem to be the huge backlash that has come from US or Australian consumers when FW put prices in line with what they frankly should have been for yyears.
i'm not sure if your realize but EVERYONE was charged with VAT, even if you lived outside the EU. FW pricing has always stated VAT included. So anyone ordering out of the EU never got a price reduction from the removal of VAT. No you were charged your conversion rate, your shipping rate and then you were taxed AGAIN for your local rate.
The baked in VAT that never got removed when i order from the US is what got me to stop buying. I ordered other gaming products form UK stores and when i selected US the VAT fee was REMOVED.... FW needs to set ONE price that is equal across all currencies and then add your tax on top of that, if they want to charge more for shipping to different places that is on them.
Deathklaat wrote: i'm not sure if your realize but EVERYONE was charged with VAT, even if you lived outside the EU. FW pricing has always stated VAT included. So anyone ordering out of the EU never got a price reduction from the removal of VAT. No you were charged your conversion rate, your shipping rate and then you were taxed AGAIN for your local rate.
The baked in VAT that never got removed when i order from the US is what got me to stop buying. I ordered other gaming products form UK stores and when i selected US the VAT fee was REMOVED.... FW needs to set ONE price that is equal across all currencies and then add your tax on top of that, if they want to charge more for shipping to different places that is on them.
You do realise that you can then claim the VAT back though?
This won't affect FW much. Everyone kicked off when Apple changed their conversion rates in the UK, prices went up 20% overnight, nerds went mad, then went out the next week and bought another iPhone. If you want the product and can afford, you'll probably buy it. This may well price some people out of the product, and it's a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people, but FW will carry on, and if the £ strengthens against the US and AU $ then prices will begin to align more closely.
totalfailure wrote: One would wonder what the future for HH gaming is now. With Bligh's passing, sticking with the 7E rules looking like the best call ever made by anyone anywhere, stuff going out of stock, the novel series closer to a conclusion, and now the price increases...
FTFY.
The slowdown in releases and huge swath of LCTB undermining confidence are the majority of what's behind issues with actual Horus Heresy gaming. I'm sure sticking with 7th has had a big impact on people playing 40K against 40K armies, but frankly out of all the not-40K and 30K players I've met over the years only a handful have been both, most of the folk getting all rabble-rabble about HH staying 7th play actual HH games once in a blue moon if ever.
Must depend on your area.
I mostly played HH all the way through 6ed and 7ed - it was a better, more consistent ruleset than regular 40k at the time. My club (mostly veteran gamers) probably had more 30k games than 40k games on any given night.
Since the drop of 8ed, I've hardly played a game of HH 7ed. A large proportion of the club has switched back to 40k, though there are still a few games of HH 7ed happening. A lot of armies are being repurposed to 40k. These people aren't some pretend fans of the Heresy, or occasional noobs who don't REALLY play Heresy, or people who were only playing Heresy armies vs 40k armies - we're a big club, and regularly used to attend (and occasionally run) HH events just a few years ago - people have multiple armies, with plenty of FW and cool Heresy-era conversions. It's just that HH feels like a dated system, and 8ed 40k bringing so many old players back into the fold made the 40k scene at the club a lot more varied. And few people want to have to switch between 7ed and 8ed rules on a weekly basis.
I'm sure the reasons you mention are valid - the slowdown of releases has probably affected things - but I see the HH community getting more and more gatekeeper-y, and the idea that the people who switched to 8ed weren't REAL Heresy players to begin with is part of that.
As you say, it's not enough to just stop buying/playing something - you have to say WHY you're not buying/playing it so the company know how to change. When people say 'I don't play Heresy any more because I prefer 8ed to 7ed', and a load of people pipe up saying 'ignore them, they're not REAL heresy players anyway' that message back to the company is distorted.
phillv85 wrote: This won't affect FW much. Everyone kicked off when Apple changed their conversion rates in the UK, prices went up 20% overnight, nerds went mad, then went out the next week and bought another iPhone.
That's because Apple is a cult. They could put uranium chips in the phones that actually give you cancer and Apple cultists would still buy them.
Not much, because the internet wasn't a thing yet, and nobody really knew any better.
Once internet shopping became a thing, it affected GW enough that they felt the need to ban stockists from selling outside their geographical regions to try to stop people from avoiding paying their higher local prices.
So as you can see people in US and OZ earn considerably more on average than UK consumers and even taking into account most people's largest monthly expense (rent) they still come out on top.
So?
When you walk into a GW store with a friend who earns less than you, would you be ok with the store charging you more than him for the same kit, just because you earn more?
And average incomes are a poor guide of anything anyway. No idea how the figures line up in the UK and US, but the national average here in Oz is skewed significantly by the mining sector and a very small number of super-high income earners. Only around 20% of the population actually earn that average or more. Most of the rest of us are quite significantly under that number.
So yes US and Australians are paying more - but you can't honestly tell me compared to UK customers you are being ripped of.
Yes we can... because we're paying more. In this case, they can't even claim that the discrepancy is the result of the higher cost of doing business here, because Forgeworld doesn't operate here. Forgeworld charging more because of the country we live in despite the goods being shipped from the same place regardless is no less a ripoff than the Black Library charging us more for eBook downloads.
If I buy a T-Shirt for example from America it costs triple what it costs for an American consumer to purchase it.
Not if you're buying it from America, it doesn't.
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
Forgeworld are based in the UK, and selling in UK currency. A model that sells for £100 gets them the same £100 regardless of where the money comes from.
StraightSilver wrote: My argument is that FW has raised the costs to cover the weak pound and the cost of selling in your territory but have offset the cost by allowing for local shipping.
They aren't offsetting much, because the majority of FW orders had free shipping anyway. Nor is it "covering" a weak pound, that's just an excuse to charge more money and get people to defend them for it. If they have to cover the weak currency by adding 20% to US prices then how can they sell that same item at the reduced price within the UK? The money doesn't see where it came from, FW only cares how much money per model came into their bank accounts.
And no, it isn't about increased costs (which is a stupid idea anyway, the only extra cost is shipping and that's accounted for in the shipping fee). Remember how they were simultaneously bragging about how the new US warehouse would cut costs and make shipping so much easier? If anything they should be giving us a discount!
It's also outrageous that as a UK consumer I can't buy a T-Shirt from USA for the $10 it's advertised in US but instead pay $30 because I live in UK.
On the other hand, if I buy something on ebay from a UK seller I pay the exact GBP price I bid. I don't get charged an extra "our currency is lower than it was a few years ago" 20% fee on top of that price.
when FW put prices in line with what they frankly should have been for yyears.
Lolwut. No. You honestly think that FW prices have been too cheap for years?
Only if it's charged as VAT. FW never charged VAT, they just had higher prices than they might have otherwise charged. It's only an assumption by some people that the higher prices represent the VAT being included.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/28 17:29:27
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
totalfailure wrote: One would wonder what the future for HH gaming is now. With Bligh's passing, sticking with the 7E rules looking like the best call ever made by anyone anywhere, stuff going out of stock, the novel series closer to a conclusion, and now the price increases...
FTFY.
The slowdown in releases and huge swath of LCTB undermining confidence are the majority of what's behind issues with actual Horus Heresy gaming. I'm sure sticking with 7th has had a big impact on people playing 40K against 40K armies, but frankly out of all the not-40K and 30K players I've met over the years only a handful have been both, most of the folk getting all rabble-rabble about HH staying 7th play actual HH games once in a blue moon if ever.
Must depend on your area.
I mostly played HH all the way through 6ed and 7ed - it was a better, more consistent ruleset than regular 40k at the time. My club (mostly veteran gamers) probably had more 30k games than 40k games on any given night.
Since the drop of 8ed, I've hardly played a game of HH 7ed. A large proportion of the club has switched back to 40k, though there are still a few games of HH 7ed happening. A lot of armies are being repurposed to 40k. These people aren't some pretend fans of the Heresy, or occasional noobs who don't REALLY play Heresy, or people who were only playing Heresy armies vs 40k armies - we're a big club, and regularly used to attend (and occasionally run) HH events just a few years ago - people have multiple armies, with plenty of FW and cool Heresy-era conversions. It's just that HH feels like a dated system, and 8ed 40k bringing so many old players back into the fold made the 40k scene at the club a lot more varied. And few people want to have to switch between 7ed and 8ed rules on a weekly basis.
I'm sure the reasons you mention are valid - the slowdown of releases has probably affected things - but I see the HH community getting more and more gatekeeper-y, and the idea that the people who switched to 8ed weren't REAL Heresy players to begin with is part of that.
As you say, it's not enough to just stop buying/playing something - you have to say WHY you're not buying/playing it so the company know how to change. When people say 'I don't play Heresy any more because I prefer 8ed to 7ed', and a load of people pipe up saying 'ignore them, they're not REAL heresy players anyway' that message back to the company is distorted.
As you say, that's your experience. It's not mine. It's not what I see online whenever this discussion comes up.
There are people who, for some reason I can't fathom, prefer 8th and would rather HH switch to it. They are not, by any anecdotal measure I can find, commonplace. People complaining about HH staying 7th almost always come at it from the perspective of "this devalues my HH army because I can't use it in 40K any more", which is mostly where such people used it. And that's a different issue entirely from a new 40K edition draining folk away - that's always happened. It's more pronounced this time because 8th is a more radical shift than 4th>7th, but the pattern will remain the same - in a year or two the exact same people who currently view HH as "stale" will feel that way about 40K 8th and start looking around for something else to occupy them, something that is as unlike 8th as possible while remaining familiar, and 7.5-based Heresy fits that bill a lot better than a 40K-chasing 8th-based Heresy would.
That's not "gatekeeping", it's just the way it is from everything I've seen and read.
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-----
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Yodhrin wrote: As you say, that's your experience. It's not mine. It's not what I see online whenever this discussion comes up.
There are people who, for some reason I can't fathom, prefer 8th and would rather HH switch to it. They are not, by any anecdotal measure I can find, commonplace. People complaining about HH staying 7th almost always come at it from the perspective of "this devalues my HH army because I can't use it in 40K any more", which is mostly where such people used it. And that's a different issue entirely from a new 40K edition draining folk away - that's always happened. It's more pronounced this time because 8th is a more radical shift than 4th>7th, but the pattern will remain the same - in a year or two the exact same people who currently view HH as "stale" will feel that way about 40K 8th and start looking around for something else to occupy them, something that is as unlike 8th as possible while remaining familiar, and 7.5-based Heresy fits that bill a lot better than a 40K-chasing 8th-based Heresy would.
That's not "gatekeeping", it's just the way it is from everything I've seen and read.
Again, that’s not really what I’ve seen online. I think, when 8th edition was released, there were a lot of Heresy players who were looking forward to that (me included). Once it was announced that it would be staying 7th edition there was a hell of a lot of shouting back-and-forth on forums, so much so that Crusade & Heresy had to ban the conversation entirely! Since then, with a lot of those people actually going and playing 8th edition (and maybe not being present on Heresy forums as much) those conversations have stopped happening so much. I don’t think all the people who wanted 8th edition were just part-timers who secretly only wanted to play 40K.
Regarding new editions, since the release of Heresy there have only been two edition changes - 6th to 7th, which was before Heresy had really hit its height anyway and not a huge system change, and 7th to 8th, which has effectively split the community. I don’t remember the 7ed release drawing away many people, even temporarily.
And again, that characterisation of the 8ed fans as some sort of fickle gamers tempted by the new shiny, who will inevitably get bored of everything after a year or two, is still doing the gatekeeper thing. Ignore them, they’re not REAL fans, etc!
I’m not sure why it’s so hard to believe - some Heresy players wanted 8ed and some didn’t. Both of those groups were honest in their wishes. Those that wanted 8ed aren’t idiots, or liars, or ‘fake’ fans - they’re just not playing Heresy as much now. That split in the community is a bad thing.
StraightSilver wrote: Playing Devil's advocate here I don't really understand why the internet has gone into meltdown over this.
To put it into perspective I have some numbers to show.
Average UK income 2017 in pound sterling - £27,300
Average US income 2017 in pound sterling - £43,797
Average Australian income 2017 in pound sterling - £46,937
Average UK monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £937
Average US monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £954
Average Australia monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £1,614
So as you can see people in US and OZ earn considerably more on average than UK consumers and even taking into account most people's largest monthly expense (rent) they still come out on top.
Factor in the fact that UK consumers pay approx 40% tax (20% Basic rate + 20% VAT) and the gap in earnings widens even further.
Then take into account that UK is going through one of the most disastrous business and financial crises in decades (Brexit) I don't think GW's decision is an unfair one.
FW Leviathan Dread (UK) in pound sterling - £47
FW Leviathan Dread (US) in pound sterling - £56.50
FW Leviathan Dread (Oz) in pound sterling - £62.62
So yes US and Australians are paying more - but you can't honestly tell me compared to UK customers you are being ripped of.
As a UK consumer if I buy goods from Australia or US I pay waaaaaay more than the dollar price.
If I buy a T-Shirt for example from America it costs triple what it costs for an American consumer to purchase it.
The same goes for electronic goods etc.
So yes FW have put their prices up, but they have reduced the shipping costs and I don't really see people suddenly being "ripped off".
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
Err you should check your figures. You seem to have quoted the Household income for the US. Not income per person.
Your working of tax is also bloody awful 20% Vat and 20% income tax is not 40%. You also ignore that both Americans and Australians pay both income tax and sales tax (a VAT equivalent)
Did you even use the exchange rate of the years in question? Because I think you'll find that the pound is worth considerably less than it did in 2016/17.
StraightSilver wrote: Playing Devil's advocate here I don't really understand why the internet has gone into meltdown over this.
To put it into perspective I have some numbers to show.
Average UK income 2017 in pound sterling - £27,300
Average US income 2017 in pound sterling - £43,797
Average Australian income 2017 in pound sterling - £46,937
Average UK monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £937
Average US monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £954
Average Australia monthly rent 2017 in pound sterling - £1,614
So as you can see people in US and OZ earn considerably more on average than UK consumers and even taking into account most people's largest monthly expense (rent) they still come out on top.
Factor in the fact that UK consumers pay approx 40% tax (20% Basic rate + 20% VAT) and the gap in earnings widens even further.
Then take into account that UK is going through one of the most disastrous business and financial crises in decades (Brexit) I don't think GW's decision is an unfair one.
FW Leviathan Dread (UK) in pound sterling - £47
FW Leviathan Dread (US) in pound sterling - £56.50
FW Leviathan Dread (Oz) in pound sterling - £62.62
So yes US and Australians are paying more - but you can't honestly tell me compared to UK customers you are being ripped of.
As a UK consumer if I buy goods from Australia or US I pay waaaaaay more than the dollar price.
If I buy a T-Shirt for example from America it costs triple what it costs for an American consumer to purchase it.
The same goes for electronic goods etc.
So yes FW have put their prices up, but they have reduced the shipping costs and I don't really see people suddenly being "ripped off".
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
Average income is a terrible metric when looking at sales of goods/services, you are far better off using Purchasing power parity(PPP), which shows the ratio of prices in national currencies of the same good or service in different countries
So if you use the average incomes you provided and modify by PPP, this is what you end up with this:
Peregrine wrote: It's a scam because if I could convince the UK site to accept a US address I'd be paying considerably less money. It doesn't matter how much money I make, the price doesn't magically become the same in both countries just because I'm a billionaire instead of poor. And it's ridiculous to suggest that prices should be set as a percentage of the buyer's income instead of a single GBP value.
That's not my argument.
My argument is that FW has raised the costs to cover the weak pound and the cost of selling in your territory but have offset the cost by allowing for local shipping.
The rise in price makes FW comparable to other companies selling their goods in other territories.
It's also outrageous that as a UK consumer I can't buy a T-Shirt from USA for the $10 it's advertised in US but instead pay $30 because I live in UK.
My income argument is to show that the price increase really is negligible and that sadly this is the result of the current economic climate.
UK customers have as much legitimate cause to argue that FW is expensive but their doesn't seem to be the huge backlash that has come from US or Australian consumers when FW put prices in line with what they frankly should have been for yyears.
The weak pound has nothing to do with it - under the non-local currency regime everyone was paying a fixed price in £ regardless of the exchange rate, there was no currency risk to FW.
Some of this is speculation and some of this is what I hear on the ex-employee grapevine:
FW has been fighting against being brought in line with GW main on various business practices for a long time. My guess is that that battle has been lost or is in the process of being lost. Most of the Specialist launches are coming through main GW and someone has finally realised (a decade after they should have done) that FW products should be sold alongside the rest, and at some point soon the FW website will disappear.
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It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
Other people have addressed the rest of your post so I'll just cherry pick this part. How on earth has this lost FW money? First, FW is a UK company, that measures its profit and loss in pounds. It doesn't care what the home currency is of the buyer because the buyer pays in pounds. Second, FW charged VAT on all foreign sales, meaning that 16.67% of the price of every figure they sold to an overseas buyer was extra profit, or at the very least offset the shipping costs when the shipping charge wasn't high enough (or the free shipping threshold had been passed). Third, the weak pound since the Brexit referendum has actively encouraged overseas buyers to buy from FW direct because the prices suddenly started looking a lot better value. I'm sure they've seen a huge growth in overseas sales since 2016.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
*I say "we" for convenience. I haven't bought FW for years because their price is unjustifiable when there are Chinese recasters doing a better job for a fraction of the price. If FW could figure out how to reduce the use of mold release agent, not refill partially-filled molds during casting, perhaps take models out of the molds AFTER the models have set, and allow us to order from the UK again - preferably without also paying VAT - I might one day consider buying from them again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 09:26:42
What new information did they impart? How did they enlighten me as to their thought process behind these changes?
Short Answer: They didn't. Long Answer: They copypasta'd the bs from the community/their newsletter.
Forge World wrote:Thanks for getting in touch regarding the recent changes to our web store.
Whilst we cannot comment exactly on the pricing model used (mainly because we don’t know exactly how all the accountnomancer stuff works) what we can tell you is some of the changes that we are making that means even though the listed price for some of your items is higher, you should still be getting a great deal on your purchases:
First of all we are changing our shipping fees from being charged at 15% of your order value (plus extra if you want express delivery) to a flat rate fee. We will still have our free shipping offers available too, but at a lower order value as well!
On top of this because we are charging in local currency, you won't be hit by any surprise taxes or charges on import (This is especially important for Canadian customers who have had extra charges plus extra delays due to shipping from the UK) or any fluctuations in the currency market.
We have had a look at our shipping offer as well which before took a fair old time to get to our customers around the world. All of our shipping options have had an upgrade, and we can dispatch goods 24hrs a day now which means we can get items out to you and in your hands in a much speedier manner!
I did not give a positive reply:
Thanks for the canned response that we've seen a dozen times already.
You reasoning is inherently flawed, and avoiding minuscule currency conversion fees is a pittance compared to the drastic increases in prices that everywhere from the US to NZ has to now pay.
You have lost a customer, and, I suspect, many more over this callous and frankly greedy change of policy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/29 13:19:11
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
Of course it's how economics works. I predicated my statement on FW running at near capacity because production capacity is also a limited resource. For all we know they're spending a fortune in overtime staff to make sure stuff goes out the door.
Lowering demand clearly isn't always a bad thing - this is Economics 101 - if the demand is as inelastic as FW seems to think it is, they'll sell slightly less product at vastly increased prices - and if they really are hiring people on overtime to meet the demand they can reduce that as well, which will increase profits even more.
Say 60% of their total demand is overseas, and let's say 10% of the total has to be fulfilled in overtime, paying staff time and a half for their labor, so 6 out of that 10% is overseas orders. Let's further assume this - what is it? 20%? - increase in prices reduces demand from overseas by 10% and UK demand remains flat. They'll be able to cut 60% of their overtime payments while increasing overall revenue by 10.8%. There are other complications too in terms of the shipping and distribution hub, but it sounds like a win for the Accountonomancers to me.
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
Of course it's how economics works. I predicated my statement on FW running at near capacity because production capacity is also a limited resource. For all we know they're spending a fortune in overtime staff to make sure stuff goes out the door.
Lowering demand clearly isn't always a bad thing - this is Economics 101 - if the demand is as inelastic as FW seems to think it is, they'll sell slightly less product at vastly increased prices - and if they really are hiring people on overtime to meet the demand they can reduce that as well, which will increase profits even more.
Say 60% of their total demand is overseas, and let's say 10% of the total has to be fulfilled in overtime, paying staff time and a half for their labor, so 6 out of that 10% is overseas orders. Let's further assume this - what is it? 20%? - increase in prices reduces demand from overseas by 10% and UK demand remains flat. They'll be able to cut 60% of their overtime payments while increasing overall revenue by 10.8%. There are other complications too in terms of the shipping and distribution hub, but it sounds like a win for the Accountonomancers to me.
That's a lot of baseless assumptions being made to prove your point. Pricing people out to lower demand only lowers the demand for your product, but the demand is still there. People will seek out alternatives such as recasts or 3rd party minis. Not only have you lost business but you prop up your competition. Basic economics is to expand the business to meet demand.
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
Of course it's how economics works. I predicated my statement on FW running at near capacity because production capacity is also a limited resource. For all we know they're spending a fortune in overtime staff to make sure stuff goes out the door.
Lowering demand clearly isn't always a bad thing - this is Economics 101 - if the demand is as inelastic as FW seems to think it is, they'll sell slightly less product at vastly increased prices - and if they really are hiring people on overtime to meet the demand they can reduce that as well, which will increase profits even more.
Say 60% of their total demand is overseas, and let's say 10% of the total has to be fulfilled in overtime, paying staff time and a half for their labor, so 6 out of that 10% is overseas orders. Let's further assume this - what is it? 20%? - increase in prices reduces demand from overseas by 10% and UK demand remains flat. They'll be able to cut 60% of their overtime payments while increasing overall revenue by 10.8%. There are other complications too in terms of the shipping and distribution hub, but it sounds like a win for the Accountonomancers to me.
That's a lot of baseless assumptions being made to prove your point. Pricing people out to lower demand only lowers the demand for your product, but the demand is still there. People will seek out alternatives such as recasts or 3rd party minis. Not only have you lost business but you prop up your competition. Basic economics is to expand the business to meet demand.
The core assumption on capacity was there from the very first statement I made. You subsequently said that it is "always" a bad thing to lower demand.
Expanding business to meet demand is what you (and I, and no doubt others) think GW *should* do. Pricing people out is what they HAVE done and I've offered a possible explanation as to what they might have been thinking in terms of capacity, in terms of their view of demand inelasticity... it doesn't mean I agree with what they've done and in fact I've been vocal in other parts of this site on the poor value proposition FW is given their lousy quality compared to some of the Chinese recasters. And GW propping up their competition (actually, creating a space in which competition could exist!) is exactly what they were doing before the so-called "New GW" came along. This move stinks of old GW - but I don't know if it'll really hurt their bottom line at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/08/30 02:06:59
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
Of course it's how economics works. I predicated my statement on FW running at near capacity because production capacity is also a limited resource. For all we know they're spending a fortune in overtime staff to make sure stuff goes out the door.
Lowering demand clearly isn't always a bad thing - this is Economics 101 - if the demand is as inelastic as FW seems to think it is, they'll sell slightly less product at vastly increased prices - and if they really are hiring people on overtime to meet the demand they can reduce that as well, which will increase profits even more.
Say 60% of their total demand is overseas, and let's say 10% of the total has to be fulfilled in overtime, paying staff time and a half for their labor, so 6 out of that 10% is overseas orders. Let's further assume this - what is it? 20%? - increase in prices reduces demand from overseas by 10% and UK demand remains flat. They'll be able to cut 60% of their overtime payments while increasing overall revenue by 10.8%. There are other complications too in terms of the shipping and distribution hub, but it sounds like a win for the Accountonomancers to me.
That's a lot of baseless assumptions being made to prove your point. Pricing people out to lower demand only lowers the demand for your product, but the demand is still there. People will seek out alternatives such as recasts or 3rd party minis. Not only have you lost business but you prop up your competition. Basic economics is to expand the business to meet demand.
The core assumption on capacity was there from the very first statement I made. You subsequently said that it is "always" a bad thing to lower demand.
Expanding business to meet demand is what you (and I, and no doubt others) think GW *should* do. Pricing people out is what they HAVE done and I've offered a possible explanation as to what they might have been thinking in terms of capacity, in terms of their view of demand inelasticity... it doesn't mean I agree with what they've done and in fact I've been vocal in other parts of this site on the poor value proposition FW is given their lousy quality compared to some of the Chinese recasters. And GW propping up their competition (actually, creating a space in which competition could exist!) is exactly what they were doing before the so-called "New GW" came along. This move stinks of old GW - but I don't know if it'll really hurt their bottom line at all.
Couldn’t they just order more casting machines to meet demand? What’s the ceiling for the process, mold wear?
It's just that US, Australian and other international consumers have been able to take advantage of the weak pound and it's been losing FW money.
In fact, I'm almost positive that it's the enormous growth in overseas buyers of FW that has brought the current situation to pass. In simple economics terms, if FW has been running at near capacity to meet orders there's an implication that prices are too low, so the natural move is to raise prices in order to reduce demand while still increasing the marginal profit. It's just that they decided to wrap this price rise up in a layer of subterfuge that basically targets only the overseas buyers while dressing it up like we*'re being done a favor.
That's not how economics works at all. You don't increase prices to lower demand, you increase production. Unless you are dealing with a limited resource which resin is not, lowering demand is always a bad thing. Also there is nothing to indicate FW was having trouble fulfilling orders.
Of course it's how economics works. I predicated my statement on FW running at near capacity because production capacity is also a limited resource. For all we know they're spending a fortune in overtime staff to make sure stuff goes out the door.
Lowering demand clearly isn't always a bad thing - this is Economics 101 - if the demand is as inelastic as FW seems to think it is, they'll sell slightly less product at vastly increased prices - and if they really are hiring people on overtime to meet the demand they can reduce that as well, which will increase profits even more.
Say 60% of their total demand is overseas, and let's say 10% of the total has to be fulfilled in overtime, paying staff time and a half for their labor, so 6 out of that 10% is overseas orders. Let's further assume this - what is it? 20%? - increase in prices reduces demand from overseas by 10% and UK demand remains flat. They'll be able to cut 60% of their overtime payments while increasing overall revenue by 10.8%. There are other complications too in terms of the shipping and distribution hub, but it sounds like a win for the Accountonomancers to me.
That's a lot of baseless assumptions being made to prove your point. Pricing people out to lower demand only lowers the demand for your product, but the demand is still there. People will seek out alternatives such as recasts or 3rd party minis. Not only have you lost business but you prop up your competition. Basic economics is to expand the business to meet demand.
The core assumption on capacity was there from the very first statement I made. You subsequently said that it is "always" a bad thing to lower demand.
Expanding business to meet demand is what you (and I, and no doubt others) think GW *should* do. Pricing people out is what they HAVE done and I've offered a possible explanation as to what they might have been thinking in terms of capacity, in terms of their view of demand inelasticity... it doesn't mean I agree with what they've done and in fact I've been vocal in other parts of this site on the poor value proposition FW is given their lousy quality compared to some of the Chinese recasters. And GW propping up their competition (actually, creating a space in which competition could exist!) is exactly what they were doing before the so-called "New GW" came along. This move stinks of old GW - but I don't know if it'll really hurt their bottom line at all.
Couldn’t they just order more casting machines to meet demand? What’s the ceiling for the process, mold wear?
I think - and this is real conjecture because I don't have casting experience, someone else should step in and comment - that it's finding experienced casters. Resin casting is supposed to be slow and labor-intensive, and judging by the crap I've received on more than one occasion it's also apparently a job that involves a bit more finesse than just dumping stuff in a mold and letting it set.
angryboy2k wrote: I think - and this is real conjecture because I don't have casting experience, someone else should step in and comment - that it's finding experienced casters. Resin casting is supposed to be slow and labor-intensive, and judging by the crap I've received on more than one occasion it's also apparently a job that involves a bit more finesse than just dumping stuff in a mold and letting it set.
Having worked with resin at an industrial scale, I very much doubt that FW are hand casting/pouring. It would be a god damn nightmare.
They are most likely using spin-cast molds or even injection molding, both of which require some basic set-up training but mostly rely on machinery/equipment more so than the individual.
Having worked with resin at an industrial scale, I very much doubt that FW are hand casting/pouring. It would be a god damn nightmare.
They are most likely using spin-cast molds or even injection molding, both of which require some basic set-up training but mostly rely on machinery/equipment more so than the individual.
They've dabbled with machine casting, using a similar process to 'Fine'cast in the past for some smaller models, but the vast majority of their range is hand cast, as is most resin in the gaming industry.
Having worked with resin at an industrial scale, I very much doubt that FW are hand casting/pouring. It would be a god damn nightmare.
They are most likely using spin-cast molds or even injection molding, both of which require some basic set-up training but mostly rely on machinery/equipment more so than the individual.
They've dabbled with machine casting, using a similar process to 'Fine'cast in the past for some smaller models, but the vast majority of their range is hand cast, as is most resin in the gaming industry.
Good lord that is just so bad, particularly for a group who produces at such a large scale. I'm surprised they haven't pushed to make it work.
It does explain the varying quality across individual models however.
2200pts/1750 painted
2800pts/1200 painted
2200pts/650 painted
217pts/151 painted 
(more)
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