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So I recorded the top 11 lists before my BCP disappeared (meant top 10 but I snagged an extra one by mistake, so it's added to the pile!). There may be some mistakes/missing bits due to the pictures of the player's list uploaded to BCP having clipping errors. I don't remember the exact order of their placings, but here you go!

'Sexi Mexi' Presents "Diamond is Unbreakable"


Chris (Last Name Illegible) NOVA List


Alan Blakerborough's NOVA List
-This one has lots crossed out and hand-written notes so it's extra hard to decipher-


Shane Watts Presents 'Peace Through Dakka'


Alex Ing's NOVA Open List
-This one is ENTIRELY handwritten and is probably the least decipherable of them all-


Jason Curtis's NOVA List


Nick Nanavati, King of Finlandia, Hunter of Trolls, Drinker of Drinks, Breaker of Models, Prophet of Fateweaver and Lord of the Warp Token Presents 'The NOVA Winning List'
-Note: While it won many games, this list did not win NOVA, contrary to its name.


Erik Illegible's NOVA List


No Name Given's NOVA List
-Seriously guys, put your names on your lists. I beg you.


Andrew Gonyo's NOVA List
-This is the list that won.


Unprinted Name's NOVA List


I think there are a lot in common between these lists (Captain Slamguinuses, Catachans, Grand Strategist + Kurov's Aquila, Raven Knight Castellans, lack of Necrons/Tau at all) that show some problems with 40k's balance while the lack of a few things could point to some supposedly overpowered units actually being O.K. (Custodes Captains on Dawneagles, Ynnari/Soulburst). What do you all think?

Audustum wrote:

while the lack of a few things could point to some supposedly overpowered units actually being O.K. (Custodes Captains on Dawneagles, Ynnari/Soulburst). What do you all think?

That's an insanely stupid conclusion.

There are maybe 100 Million lists possible in 40K (no idea, but it's a lot). A unit or list that is in the, say, top million is still insanely OP in the game as a whole, even if it perhaps doesn't cut the top 50,000 of the ITC tournament circuit.


The sample here is far too small and skewed to make a conclusion like that.

Oh look... Imperial Soup winning with tons of Infantry Squads and other units like Rough Riders and Hellhounds...

Yeah, thats proof that Infantry Squads are absolutely fine.

Also... soo much Dark Eldar. To be honest, this is probably the "TOP" of all the big tournaments we have had of 8th that I like the least. Everything was expected. Imperial Soup (IG+BA+AC+IK), DE, The Ahriman Bomb. No surprirses, not that much variety.

I'm hoping 2018 CA shakes up things a bit, slaping in the buttcheks DE, IG, Custodes with Vertus Praetors and Jetbike captains (I play custodes but normal Custodian Guard+Terminators, a couple Jetbikes, etc... and as much as people say they are absolutely fine for competitive play, they just don't make the cut for the big tournaments) and Imperial Knights. And a little here and there with BA Captain, Chaos, etc..

Boring!

While a certain streak can be found among all those lists, it is nice to see that they are not identical.

Really boring lists. Exactly what you would expect though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
While a certain streak can be found among all those lists, it is nice to see that they are not identical.

The BA detachment is always he same. Min scouts (because they are the cheapest option) and 2 Captain smash.
DE always includes Urien and 2 units of wrack + a BH detach with 3 ravager with dessie.
It's always a Raven Castellan.
The only real variety that exists is how many IG units make it into the imperial soup. Will it be a Straken batallion? Will it be hell hounds? Or just a min CP bat.

Aeldari soup and Imperial soup dominating another GT? Who'd have thunk it?!

I think this is the final nail of the 4pt Infantryman coffin.

GW needs to start penalising soup in some way too. Otherwise we'll never see the end of these IK+IG+Slamguinius/Custodes/Wolftime lists.

At least the Chaos list is a little interesting.

Audustum wrote:
lack of Necrons/Tau at all

Lack of pretty much everything.
3x DE Prophet of Flesh medleys
7x guard batteries with a mix of smash captains, bikers, custode, and House Raven Castellans
And a morty and magnus list

Would not be in the least bit surprised to see chapter approved kill the cp battery... and quite possibly custodes.

IMO making command points apply only to the specific faction keyword that generated them would go a long way in balancing soup lists with the 3 from battleforged applying to your warlord's detachment.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
IMO making command points apply only to the specific faction keyword that generated them would go a long way in balancing soup lists with the 3 from battleforged applying to your warlord's detachment.

That would basically kill allies. Might as well just say no allies.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:
IMO making command points apply only to the specific faction keyword that generated them would go a long way in balancing soup lists with the 3 from battleforged applying to your warlord's detachment.

That would basically kill allies. Might as well just say no allies.

Might not be a bad thing, for matched play.

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would basically kill allies. Might as well just say no allies.

Why? The the allied factions would have CPs to spend, just not any more than they had contributed.

Though i'm still of the opinion that CPs should be based on points and a couple paid out for detachments (similar to the support detachment cost) - kills two birds with one stone as the guard CP battery becomes something like -1 CP for a bunch of chaff rather than +5 CP.

I agree CP batteries are a problem. My solution is to handle it with points though. Bring back an allies matrix, but instead of saying "you can all with X, but not with Y" have it increase the points cost of your allies based on faction.

So Custodes could all with IG, but at 50% increased coat since they don't work together too often. Conversely, Imperial Knights can ally with Mechanicus with only a small 10% increase since they work together all the time.

A few thoughts:

Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars

Is this trying to say "Heavy Weapons Squad"? Because HWTs aren't an option by themselves. If we could see the points, that'd make it a bit more clear.
There was another list that had a single one listed similarly, like Heavy Weapons Teams were being used as a Heavy Support choice--if these were individual teams, that is way hinky. It's a difference between a single team's points and full squads of 3 teams.
Given that the individual who wrote that list had 3 singles of Scout Sentinels it makes me wonder if he ran them this way.

Company Commander - Power Maul

Unless I've missed something somewhere, Power Mauls aren't an option in the codex. We get Power Swords and Power Fists. The only Mauls even in the book are Bullgryn Mauls. I've checked the official GW FAQs and can't find mention of Power Mauls.


All told, it stresses what I've been arguing for. DITCH MORTARS FROM INFANTRY SQUADS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aeldari soup and Imperial soup dominating another GT? Who'd have thunk it?!

I think this is the final nail of the 4pt Infantryman coffin.

Like I've said, repeatedly now, it showcases that soup is a major issue. It also shows that damnit, we need to ditch Mortars as an option for Infantry Squads.

GW needs to start penalising soup in some way too. Otherwise we'll never see the end of these IK+IG+Slamguinius/Custodes/Wolftime lists.

Said it before, saying it again:
Force a declaration of a primary faction, remove the ability to purchase Relics as Stratagem boosters and instead tie it to filled out Detachments. Also remove the ability for anything to be taken outside of "Auxiliary" detachments.

Glad to see so much diversity in the top tables

 Kanluwen wrote:
A few thoughts:

Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars

Is this trying to say "Heavy Weapons Squad"? Because HWTs aren't an option by themselves. If we could see the points, that'd make it a bit more clear.
There was another list that had a single one listed similarly, like Heavy Weapons Teams were being used as a Heavy Support choice--if these were individual teams, that is way hinky. It's a difference between a single team's points and full squads of 3 teams.
Given that the individual who wrote that list had 3 singles of Scout Sentinels it makes me wonder if he ran them this way.

Company Commander - Power Maul

Unless I've missed something somewhere, Power Mauls aren't an option in the codex. We get Power Swords and Power Fists. The only Mauls even in the book are Bullgryn Mauls. I've checked the official GW FAQs and can't find mention of Power Mauls.


All told, it stresses what I've been arguing for. DITCH MORTARS FROM INFANTRY SQUADS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aeldari soup and Imperial soup dominating another GT? Who'd have thunk it?!

I think this is the final nail of the 4pt Infantryman coffin.

Like I've said, repeatedly now, it showcases that soup is a major issue. It also shows that damnit, we need to ditch Mortars as an option for Infantry Squads.

GW needs to start penalising soup in some way too. Otherwise we'll never see the end of these IK+IG+Slamguinius/Custodes/Wolftime lists.

Said it before, saying it again:
Force a declaration of a primary faction, remove the ability to purchase Relics as Stratagem boosters and instead tie it to filled out Detachments. Also remove the ability for anything to be taken outside of "Auxiliary" detachments.

Yeah, they we're Heavy Weapons Teams with Mortars in the HS slot.

Hi not important but annoyed point is that they were not Heavy Weapons Teams, which are a model, but Heavy Weapons Squads, a unit made up of Heavy Weapons Teams.

Relics being free was quite possibly GW's dumbest decision to date. Make them purchased items again.

 alextroy wrote:
Hi not important but annoyed point is that they were not Heavy Weapons Teams, which are a model, but Heavy Weapons Squads, a unit made up of Heavy Weapons Teams.

Those people should be penalized or seriously should have their armies scrutinized at this point.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Relics being free was quite possibly GW's dumbest decision to date. Make them purchased items again.

It's a single free relic - it is kinda cool. Every army gets it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Relics being free was quite possibly GW's dumbest decision to date. Make them purchased items again.

Honestly, making them purchased items might be just as bad.

Gonna harp on it again, I like AoS' relic system better. You get one to start with and need to have Warscroll Battalions to add another one.

 Kanluwen wrote:
A few thoughts:

Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars
Heavy Weapon Team - Mortars

Is this trying to say "Heavy Weapons Squad"? Because HWTs aren't an option by themselves. If we could see the points, that'd make it a bit more clear.
There was another list that had a single one listed similarly, like Heavy Weapons Teams were being used as a Heavy Support choice--if these were individual teams, that is way hinky. It's a difference between a single team's points and full squads of 3 teams.
Given that the individual who wrote that list had 3 singles of Scout Sentinels it makes me wonder if he ran them this way.

Company Commander - Power Maul

Unless I've missed something somewhere, Power Mauls aren't an option in the codex. We get Power Swords and Power Fists. The only Mauls even in the book are Bullgryn Mauls. I've checked the official GW FAQs and can't find mention of Power Mauls.


All told, it stresses what I've been arguing for. DITCH MORTARS FROM INFANTRY SQUADS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Aeldari soup and Imperial soup dominating another GT? Who'd have thunk it?!

I think this is the final nail of the 4pt Infantryman coffin.

Like I've said, repeatedly now, it showcases that soup is a major issue. It also shows that damnit, we need to ditch Mortars as an option for Infantry Squads.

GW needs to start penalising soup in some way too. Otherwise we'll never see the end of these IK+IG+Slamguinius/Custodes/Wolftime lists.

Said it before, saying it again:
Force a declaration of a primary faction, remove the ability to purchase Relics as Stratagem boosters and instead tie it to filled out Detachments. Also remove the ability for anything to be taken outside of "Auxiliary" detachments.

They take the mortars because they have some points left over - not because they are mandatory to the battery. Mortars being 5 points is obviously the problem with mortars.

 Xenomancers wrote:

They take the mortars because they have some points left over - not because they are mandatory to the battery. Mortars being 5 points is obviously the problem with mortars.

They take Mortars because they're better than other options. They're cheap and were able to be used even when a unit is hidden out of LOS.

Mortars being 5pts doesn't mean jack when they can only be taken on a Heavy Support choice.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Like I've said, repeatedly now, it showcases that soup is a major issue. It also shows that damnit, we need to ditch Mortars as an option for Infantry Squads.

There is a prevalence of Infantry Squads at the top tables. Not just for CP farming either.

It's a problem and at this stage, an obvious one.

Soup is another issue but still an issue nonetheless.

Mortars in Infantry squads feels like a distraction.

A.T. wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
That would basically kill allies. Might as well just say no allies.

Why? The the allied factions would have CPs to spend, just not any more than they had contributed.

Though i'm still of the opinion that CPs should be based on points and a couple paid out for detachments (similar to the support detachment cost) - kills two birds with one stone as the guard CP battery becomes something like -1 CP for a bunch of chaff rather than +5 CP.

That could be a solution. I posted a CP change a while back. Every army starts with equal CP - taking allied detachments cost command points and taking anything but battalion and brigades cost command points.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Like I've said, repeatedly now, it showcases that soup is a major issue. It also shows that damnit, we need to ditch Mortars as an option for Infantry Squads.

There is a prevalence of Infantry Squads at the top tables. Not just for CP farming either.

It's a problem and at this stage, an obvious one.

Soup is another issue but still an issue nonetheless.

Mortars in Infantry squads feels like a distraction.

That's your problem then. Because it is a problem and part of why I kept harping on the change for Conscripts+Commissars being a bad idea back when it happened. I flatout called this crap in that the soup would just shift from Conscripts+Commissars to Infantry Squads and a CC.

Why do people take Infantry Squads instead of Conscripts right now?
-Cost
-Options

I can take an Infantry Squad of 10 guys with a HWT that can hunker down out of LOS on an objective and huck a mortar shot at you--Conscripts can't do that.

Why Infantry Squads instead of Scions as groundpounders?
-I shouldn't have to explain this to anyone.

 Kanluwen wrote:

That's your problem then. Because it is a problem and part of why I kept harping on the change for Conscripts+Commissars being a bad idea back when it happened. I flatout called this crap in that the soup would just shift from Conscripts+Commissars to Infantry Squads and a CC.

Why do people take Infantry Squads instead of Conscripts right now?
-Cost
-Options

I can take an Infantry Squad of 10 guys with a HWT that can hunker down out of LOS on an objective and huck a mortar shot at you--Conscripts can't do that.

4 ppm infantry are a problem for the game. I think people take them because they are the best point for point objective holder in the game bar none.

People are shocked that GT lists are not original?

Well colour me surprised, who would have thought the most competitive players would make the most boring lists to eliminate all random chance, call it "Strategy" and people are wanting to be surprised?

It's always been this way, look at every edition in the past.

If someone brings a mono-Night Lord list and wins a GT like this then I'll be surprised and take that scene more seriously.

.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
Hi not important but annoyed point is that they were not Heavy Weapons Teams, which are a model, but Heavy Weapons Squads, a unit made up of Heavy Weapons Teams.

Those people should be penalized or seriously should have their armies scrutinized at this point.

That was a me thing not a them thing. We aren't ALL encyclopedic AM players and it is fairly minor.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Relics being free was quite possibly GW's dumbest decision to date. Make them purchased items again.

Honestly, making them purchased items might be just as bad.

Gonna harp on it again, I like AoS' relic system better. You get one to start with and need to have Warscroll Battalions to add another one.

I'd need a better descriptor of how that works for AoS. As is, YEAH purchasing might be bad, and GW never repriced Relics in 7th.

However, you can always reprice a Relic per how effective it is. I can straight tell you that it's kinda silly that I would pick The Spartean over Teeth of Terra or The Shield Eternal when all these items are free. GW with Chapter Approved shows that they aren't afraid to put new prices on various items.

Let's even assume that the Aquila works so that you only get 1Cp from it max a turn. You're not gonna choose the Power Sword relic ever because they have the same cost: 0 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Warp Forge wrote:
People are shocked that GT lists are not original?

Well colour me surprised, who would have thought the most competitive players would make the most boring lists to eliminate all random chance, call it "Strategy" and people are wanting to be surprised?

It's always been this way, look at every edition in the past.

If someone brings a mono-Night Lord list and wins a GT like this then I'll be surprised and take that scene more seriously.

.

People bring the best lists that are most likely to win. Get over it. "Take seriously" like you would've ever done anything competitively.

If anything, those odd ball lists that do only well on occasion aren't healthy because people will just assume the game is balanced when it isn't. How else do you expect GW to know there's problem units?