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I don't see any hypocrisy and to be honest any discussion with you is pointless because you are so biased you simply ignore anything that doesn't fit in your twisted view of what is broken and what isn't.
YOU chose to initially claim that there were multiple examples and that they were significant. Do you really think one or two extra squads are somehow significant additions over the minimums?
You still haven't answered that. You've just reverted to the defensive now that you've been called out.
There is a reason your tag is a meme kanluwen. It's something you continue to propagate with your insane arguments and mental gymnastics.
You chose to make the argument that there were significant numbers of lists in this event fielding more than the bare minimum of Infantry Squads. There were TWO lists that meet that criteria, and one of them meets it only by a single additional unit.
We have proven that mathematically 4 ppm Infantry units are the most efficient infantry in the game.
Boy must your face be red when you look at Genestealer Cultists.
We have seen countless evidence that top players believe Infantry units to be incredibly efficient.
We have seen an insurmountable amount of evidence to suggest that even amateur players believe this to be the case.
Everything, and I mean everything points to Infantry units being undercosted.
And yet how many mono-Guard lists were at the top for this tournament again?
But you refuse to accept it, blaming the results of the unit instead on soup or, of all things, mortar squads.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps Infantry units, mortars and certain stratagems and relics that IG have access to are all to blame? That the combination of these things makes them too efficient for their cost?
Where were the mono-Guard lists again?
I've pointed at Mortars of late because, quite frankly, they're becoming a trend with regards to Infantry Squads in these soup lists. It lets the Infantry Squads park in cover on objectives and have a way to hit things they can't see while still letting them beef up a Brigade or Battalion. Mortar SQUADS are Heavy Support choices and don't really matter. They're 2W models with a Guard statline that can be wiped pretty easily once you're able to get at them.
Kurov's Aquila is powerful, never have I argued that it wasn't, and Grand Strategist is good as well--but again, if you want to deal with those for soup? Find a way to deal with soup.
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
I just think its funny that people think a 30 point raise will stop what we saw...... Its the final nail in the coffin of CP farming and hopefully the addition of some sort of negative for souping or the addition of a bonus for mono lists. Also, why is the infantry squad noticed and not the huge knight in each one of these lists lol. If you attack specific units instead of addressing soup all you will eventually end up with is one single competitive soup build and half the codexes in the game that get stomped when they don't soup
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
CC also needs to go to 40 points. So it's +50 on that battalion. Not a huge difference but that just goes to show you - these units will still be auto include. LOL.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I’m thinking GW needs to put out a new detachment… An Allies detachment.
You can only take an allies detachment after taking another detachment. If your allies detachment you can have up to 6 HQ, Troops, Fast Attack, Elites, Heavy Support, LOW from another Faction, You Warlord cannot be in this allies faction. You receive no CP from an allies Detachment. Any units in the allies Detachment cannot use CP generators, or CP retainers. No Stratagems can be used from any units in a Allies Detachment. You can have 2 Allies detachment, after taking a first normal Detachment if you choose. Allies detachment is the only way to add soup to your faction.
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
I just think its funny that people think a 30 point raise will stop what we saw...... Its the final nail in the coffin of CP farming and hopefully the addition of some sort of negative for souping or the addition of a bonus for mono lists. Also, why is the infantry squad noticed and not the huge knight in each one of these lists lol. If you attack specific units instead of addressing soup all you will eventually end up with is one single competitive soup build and half the codexes in the game that get stomped when they don't soup
I like the idea of a penalty for allied detachments. Perhaps the +3 CP for battle forged should be forfeited and an additional -1 CP for each allied detachment (a detachment that doesn't share all keywords with your first detachment).
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I don't see any hypocrisy and to be honest any discussion with you is pointless because you are so biased you simply ignore anything that doesn't fit in your twisted view of what is broken and what isn't.
YOU chose to initially claim that there were multiple examples and that they were significant. Do you really think one or two extra squads are somehow significant additions over the minimums?
You still haven't answered that. You've just reverted to the defensive now that you've been called out.
There is a reason your tag is a meme kanluwen. It's something you continue to propagate with your insane arguments and mental gymnastics.
You chose to make the argument that there were significant numbers of lists in this event fielding more than the bare minimum of Infantry Squads. There were TWO lists that meet that criteria, and one of them meets it only by a single additional unit.
We have proven that mathematically 4 ppm Infantry units are the most efficient infantry in the game.
Boy must your face be red when you look at Genestealer Cultists.
We have seen countless evidence that top players believe Infantry units to be incredibly efficient.
We have seen an insurmountable amount of evidence to suggest that even amateur players believe this to be the case.
Everything, and I mean everything points to Infantry units being undercosted.
And yet how many mono-Guard lists were at the top for this tournament again?
But you refuse to accept it, blaming the results of the unit instead on soup or, of all things, mortar squads.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps Infantry units, mortars and certain stratagems and relics that IG have access to are all to blame? That the combination of these things makes them too efficient for their cost?
Where were the mono-Guard lists again?
I've pointed at Mortars of late because, quite frankly, they're becoming a trend with regards to Infantry Squads in these soup lists. It lets the Infantry Squads park in cover on objectives and have a way to hit things they can't see while still letting them beef up a Brigade or Battalion. Mortar SQUADS are Heavy Support choices and don't really matter. They're 2W models with a Guard statline that can be wiped pretty easily once you're able to get at them.
Kurov's Aquila is powerful, never have I argued that it wasn't, and Grand Strategist is good as well--but again, if you want to deal with those for soup? Find a way to deal with soup.
2 examples are multiple mate? One or two extra squads might not be much to you, because you refuse to hear anything that doesn't suit your rhetoric, but it is very telling to me.
As I've said like 3 or 4 times now. Mono guard is one of the best mono armies in the game. This has been evidenced at the GT prior.
You bring up mortars because you want to distract from infantry squads.
Just because GS Cultists exist it does not mean Infantry should too. Perhaps they both need a nerf?!
I cant believe this is even a thing. I genujnely expected Guard players to be like 'yea, we've had our fun but I guess its time infantry had a change.' 4ppm infantry cannot exist where 4ppm conscripts do too. They need an increase.
And yes to the other guy, 30 pts (along with other changes) might make a difference. Or 60 pts. Or 80 pts etc
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
CC also needs to go to 40 points. So it's +50 on that battalion. Not a huge difference but that just goes to show you - these units will still be auto include. LOL.
How is it so difficult for you to understand that it's not necessarily the units themselves that are the "auto-include" but the CPs from the Battalion or the Brigade for armies that can't reliably get them?
You keep talking around it, but quite literally you miss the forest for the trees.
2 examples are multiple mate? One or two extra squads might not be much to you, because you refuse to hear anything that doesn't suit your rhetoric, but it is very telling to me.
One or two extra squads is not much to me because it shouldn't be appearing as much to anyone who isn't coming into this with confirmation bias.
The fact that you consider one to two extra squads in two lists to be "very telling" makes me question your argument even further. When the minimum Troops tax is 6 units and the highest someone goes is 8, you think that is "very telling"?
Call me when someone brings 10 or 12. Y'know a significant number.
As I've said like 3 or 4 times now. Mono guard is one of the best mono armies in the game. This has been evidenced at the GT prior.
So why wasn't it evidenced here?
You bring up mortars because you want to distract from infantry squads.
I bring up mortars because literally they're in the lists on infantry squads. There's very few of the Infantry Squads toting them.
I'd like to see them removed from the Infantry Squads before we go nerfing the Mortars or Infantry Squads. I'd like to see what impact that has because once again...Mortars let Infantry Squads camp in cover on objectives and remove the ability for them to take casualties while still possibly inflicting some themselves.
Just because GS Cultists exist it does not mean Infantry should too. Perhaps they both need a nerf?!
Cool, 6pt GSCs and 5pt IS. Done.
I cant believe this is even a thing. I genujnely expected Guard players to be like 'yea, we've had our fun but I guess its time infantry had a change.' 4ppm infantry cannot exist where 4ppm conscripts do too. They need an increase.
Conscripts never should have had their points increased. Their interaction with Commissars was gutted, their ability to take Orders was made dependent on a dice roll and the issues with them could be solved by bumping them to a 6+ save and giving them Autoguns or the Auxilia keyword.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/04 15:37:00
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
CC also needs to go to 40 points. So it's +50 on that battalion. Not a huge difference but that just goes to show you - these units will still be auto include. LOL.
How is it so difficult for you to understand that it's not necessarily the units themselves that are the "auto-include" but the CPs from the Battalion or the Brigade for armies that can't reliably get them?
You keep talking around it, but quite literally you miss the forest for the trees.
Nah man you are missing it - these units are base under-costed. It is 50% of the problem.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
CC also needs to go to 40 points. So it's +50 on that battalion. Not a huge difference but that just goes to show you - these units will still be auto include. LOL.
How is it so difficult for you to understand that it's not necessarily the units themselves that are the "auto-include" but the CPs from the Battalion or the Brigade for armies that can't reliably get them?
You keep talking around it, but quite literally you miss the forest for the trees.
Nah man you are missing it - these units are base under-costed. It is 50% of the problem.
And what happens when the cost goes up?
You literally JUST said that even if it goes to +50 on the Battalion it will "still be auto include".
So that suggests the issue is NOT the cost but rather the BATTALION consisting of those units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 15:42:39
I just spent 3 hours rolling dice to myself to prove a point. Who wins, a 10 man tac squad, or a bare bones Imp Guard Battalion? They came up pretty even, surprisingly.
Are the marines in cover? 2+ save buys you a couple turns. We'll say it's the first turn at 24in. range, and just do a make-believe battle report.
Marines get the option to go first, rolling a 2 vs a 2. The marines don't want to leave cover to get within 24in though, so they take turn two. Guard goes first, and they move up 6 inches to get in range. One Company Commander tells two guard squads to FRFSRF, the other gives that command to the last squad. That's 54 shots at BS4 (Sgts have pistols). 27 hits, wounding on 5's. 11 wounds. Rolling 2+ saves...pass. Space marine turn. They stay still because of missile launcher. Missile launcher targets one squad with frag, Sgt gives both barrels to a second squad, with everyone else. Missile gets 3 shots at BS3. 2 hits, wounding on 3's. 1 wound, rolling 5+ save for the guard being in the open to shoot...saves. Other shooting - Sgt hits with only plasma, wounds on 2, insta killing a guardsman. Special guy misses. Seven bolters - 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved. Guardsmen have taken 3 dead on one squad, rolling for morale...pass.
Points so far: 0pts dead space marine, 12pts dead guard. Turn 2.
Guard continue forward 6 inches - not within double tap range, because everyone starts just over 24in from each other at the start. Same FRFSRF, -3 guys. 48shots BS4, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Rolling for saves...all pass again with 2+ cover saves. Space marines turn. Move forward 6 inches into rapid fire range, fire frag at wounded squad, along with special and Sgt (both barrels). Frag: 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Special: 2 hits, 2 wounds, instakill. Sgt: 1 hit plasma/1 hit bolter, 2 wounds, 0 saves (that squad took 5 casualties, down to 2 guys). Seven bolters at farthest squad within double tap range: 14 shots, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 2 saves (that squad is down to 3). Tactical squads charge: 9 inches, into the one with the most models. Rolling 11 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds...6 saves (that squad only lost 2)! Morale phase: 1st squad loses one more, down to one - 2nd squad rolls a one, is down to 2 guys - 3rd squad rolls a six and loses 1.
Attacks back! 10 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 saves on a 3+. Heroic interventions next: 8 attacks, 6 hits, 0 wounds (!). Rolling 2 saves anyway for statistics...pass!
Infantry squad totals: 1 sgt, 2 guys including sgt, 7 guys including sgt.
Tac Marines: 10 Angry men.
3rd turn. Stay in combat (so marines can't use plas or frag missile). Fire pistols in close combat: 3 shots BS4/2 shots BS3, 2 hits, no wounds. FIX BAYONETS! Infantry guys: 13 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds...two fails! Now for a commander (one ordered himself to fight twice). 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Into the combat phase! Big squad: 6 hits, 1 wound, saved. Space marines fight back on one of the commanders. 9 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails. Continuing: Rest of Infantry do nothing. Space marine turn. Fire bolt pistols to finish off commander. 8 shots, all hit, 2 wounds, 1 fail. Fight phase. Sgt calls out the wounded commander. 1 hit, no wound. Everyone else targets second commander. All hit, 4 wounds, 1 save. (That was probably a miscalculation at this point). Attacks back! Commanders kill one Marine. Sgts hit 8 times, one wound, saved. Other guys 1 hit, no wound.
Turn 4. Guard pistols kill 1 space marine. FIX BAYONETS HARDER! Commanders target themselves, do one wound that is saved. 7 dudes and 2 guys: Sgts do nothing, other guys get 2 kills (Space marines down to 4). Fight phase proper. Big squad does 4 hits, 1 wound...saved. Attacks back. Space marine Sgt fights the two wound commander, everyone else the 1hp one. It's now or never guys! 3 Marines: 1 hit, 1 wound...commander dies! Sgt: 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves. Both commanders are dead. All the other little guys go: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Morale phase: Space marines roll a 4. They're good to go.
Space Marines shooting into largest Infantry squad. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves. Fight same guys: 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves (guard down to 3sgts and 3 dudes). Attacks back: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1 wound, saved (barely). Morale: Guard are fine on a 3.
Turn 5: This is ridiculous. 3 pistols, 1 hit, no wound. Sgt and 2 guys attacks first: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead space marine. Attacks back: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Rest of guard: 7 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds...ALL SAVED! Entering the bottom of the last turn, this is the tally of guys left:
Guard: 3sgts, 2 guys.
Marines: 3 still quite angry men.
Shooting phase, into a sgt with a dude: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Fight. Sgt fights a lone sgt, other guys choose another sgt. All of them do nothing this time. Attacks back: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. 2 Marines left.
Final tally at turn 5:
26 points left Space marines, 16 points left Guard. So yeah, pretty even match ups, at least with my schizo dice. You just gotta learn to stay back on the first turn, weather it out, and charge them when they over-extend for objectives.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 15:57:49
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
Because paying 30 points more for your CP battery will make all the difference?
CC also needs to go to 40 points. So it's +50 on that battalion. Not a huge difference but that just goes to show you - these units will still be auto include. LOL.
How is it so difficult for you to understand that it's not necessarily the units themselves that are the "auto-include" but the CPs from the Battalion or the Brigade for armies that can't reliably get them?
You keep talking around it, but quite literally you miss the forest for the trees.
Nah man you are missing it - these units are base under-costed. It is 50% of the problem.
And what happens when the cost goes up?
You literally JUST said that even if it goes to +50 on the Battalion it will "still be auto include".
So that suggests the issue is NOT the cost but rather the BATTALION consisting of those units.
I ment they would be auto include in an AM army. They might not be the go to soup generator though. Cause you can do it cheaper with admech and 5 man squads with worse CP generation though.
Here would would have a situation where getting better regen would cost you more points.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I ment they would be auto include in an AM army. They might not be the go to soup generator though. Cause you can do it cheaper with admech and 5 man squads with worse CP generation though.
Here would would have a situation where getting better regen would cost you more points.
First off: Good to see those goalposts are moving again! So what if "they would be auto-include in an AM army"? What the hell else do you expect them to take? Scions? Tempestor Primes? Maybe Commissars and Conscripts?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/04 15:51:06
Pancakey wrote: Getting rid of CP Regen altogether is not a solution under the current system of detachments giving CPs.
I prefer simply getting rid of the roll.
Change a 5+ Cp roll (for the enemy or for yourself) to gets 1 extra CP for every 4 CPs or part in your starting total/the enemies starting total.
A 6+ roll would be gets 1 extra CP for every 7 CPs or part in your starting total/the enemies starting total.
This of course assumes you can only spend CPs generated by a detachment on strategems that detachments troops have access to (and wow, all those super efficient Guard units might suddenly dissapear).
I ment they would be auto include in an AM army. They might not be the go to soup generator though. Cause you can do it cheaper with admech and 5 man squads with worse CP generation though.
Here would would have a situation where getting better regen would cost you more points.
First off: Good to see those goalposts are moving again!
So what if "they would be auto-include in an AM army"? What the hell else do you expect them to take? Scions? Tempestor Primes? Maybe Commissars and Conscripts?
That last one really takes the cake, too. It's like expecting Orks to not take boys. Not everyone is a Space Marine army that can leave their Tac Squads at home, guys...
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
Ravemastaj wrote: I just spent 3 hours rolling dice to myself to prove a point. Who wins, a 10 man tac squad, or a bare bones Imp Guard Battalion? They came up pretty even, surprisingly.
Are the marines in cover? 2+ save buys you a couple turns. We'll say it's the first turn at 24in. range, and just do a make-believe battle report.
Marines get the option to go first, rolling a 2 vs a 2. The marines don't want to leave cover to get within 24in though, so they take turn two. Guard goes first, and they move up 6 inches to get in range. One Company Commander tells two guard squads to FRFSRF, the other gives that command to the last squad. That's 54 shots at BS4 (Sgts have pistols). 27 hits, wounding on 5's. 11 wounds. Rolling 2+ saves...pass. Space marine turn. They stay still because of missile launcher. Missile launcher targets one squad with frag, Sgt gives both barrels to a second squad, with everyone else. Missile gets 3 shots at BS3. 2 hits, wounding on 3's. 1 wound, rolling 5+ save for the guard being in the open to shoot...saves. Other shooting - Sgt hits with only plasma, wounds on 2, insta killing a guardsman. Special guy misses. Seven bolters - 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved. Guardsmen have taken 3 dead on one squad, rolling for morale...pass.
Points so far: 0pts dead space marine, 12pts dead guard. Turn 2.
Guard continue forward 6 inches - not within double tap range, because everyone starts just over 24in from each other at the start. Same FRFSRF, -3 guys. 48shots BS4, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Rolling for saves...all pass again with 2+ cover saves. Space marines turn. Move forward 6 inches into rapid fire range, fire frag at wounded squad, along with special and Sgt (both barrels). Frag: 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Special: 2 hits, 2 wounds, instakill. Sgt: 1 hit plasma/1 hit bolter, 2 wounds, 0 saves (that squad took 5 casualties, down to 2 guys). Seven bolters at farthest squad within double tap range: 14 shots, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 2 saves (that squad is down to 3). Tactical squads charge: 9 inches, into the one with the most models. Rolling 11 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds...6 saves (that squad only lost 2)! Morale phase: 1st squad loses one more, down to one - 2nd squad rolls a one, is down to 2 guys - 3rd squad rolls a six and loses 1.
Attacks back! 10 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 saves on a 3+. Heroic interventions next: 8 attacks, 6 hits, 0 wounds (!). Rolling 2 saves anyway for statistics...pass!
Infantry squad totals: 1 sgt, 2 guys including sgt, 7 guys including sgt.
Tac Marines: 10 Angry men.
3rd turn. Stay in combat (so marines can't use plas or frag missile). Fire pistols in close combat: 3 shots BS4/2 shots BS3, 2 hits, no wounds. FIX BAYONETS! Infantry guys: 13 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds...two fails! Now for a commander (one ordered himself to fight twice). 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Into the combat phase! Big squad: 6 hits, 1 wound, saved. Space marines fight back on one of the commanders. 9 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails. Continuing: Rest of Infantry do nothing. Space marine turn. Fire bolt pistols to finish off commander. 8 shots, all hit, 2 wounds, 1 fail. Fight phase. Sgt calls out the wounded commander. 1 hit, no wound. Everyone else targets second commander. All hit, 4 wounds, 1 save. (That was probably a miscalculation at this point). Attacks back! Commanders kill one Marine. Sgts hit 8 times, one wound, saved. Other guys 1 hit, no wound.
Turn 4. Guard pistols kill 1 space marine. FIX BAYONETS HARDER! Commanders target themselves, do one wound that is saved. 7 dudes and 2 guys: Sgts do nothing, other guys get 2 kills (Space marines down to 4). Fight phase proper. Big squad does 4 hits, 1 wound...saved. Attacks back. Space marine Sgt fights the two wound commander, everyone else the 1hp one. It's now or never guys! 3 Marines: 1 hit, 1 wound...commander dies! Sgt: 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves. Both commanders are dead. All the other little guys go: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Morale phase: Space marines roll a 4. They're good to go.
Space Marines shooting into largest Infantry squad. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves. Fight same guys: 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves (guard down to 3sgts and 3 dudes). Attacks back: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1 wound, saved (barely). Morale: Guard are fine on a 3.
Turn 5: This is ridiculous. 3 pistols, 1 hit, no wound. Sgt and 2 guys attacks first: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead space marine. Attacks back: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Rest of guard: 7 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds...ALL SAVED! Entering the bottom of the last turn, this is the tally of guys left:
Guard: 3sgts, 2 guys.
Marines: 3 still quite angry men.
Shooting phase, into a sgt with a dude: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Fight. Sgt fights a lone sgt, other guys choose another sgt. All of them do nothing this time. Attacks back: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. 2 Marines left.
Final tally at turn 5:
26 points left Space marines, 16 points left Guard. So yeah, pretty even match ups, at least with my schizo dice. You just gotta learn to stay back on the first turn, weather it out, and charge them when they over-extend for objectives.
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
keep in mind I am rounding to the hundreds place.
111 x .5 = 55.5 x .333 = 18.5 x .333 = 6.15. 6.15 .That's how many marines die!
That is 60% of the squad. There is no point in even doing the marine calculation at that point.
The bolters kill less than 6 though if they shoot first. Plasma and rocket will kill less than 2 more. So 8 dead.
8x4 = 32 points
13x6 = 78 points
Don't roll dice...do math.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
What if you could only use stratagems from your warlord's faction? It would be fluffy and might balance things out. If you can't rotate ion shields AND teleport slamguinius, one of them becomes much less effective.
Ravemastaj wrote: I just spent 3 hours rolling dice to myself to prove a point. Who wins, a 10 man tac squad, or a bare bones Imp Guard Battalion? They came up pretty even, surprisingly.
Are the marines in cover? 2+ save buys you a couple turns. We'll say it's the first turn at 24in. range, and just do a make-believe battle report.
Marines get the option to go first, rolling a 2 vs a 2. The marines don't want to leave cover to get within 24in though, so they take turn two. Guard goes first, and they move up 6 inches to get in range. One Company Commander tells two guard squads to FRFSRF, the other gives that command to the last squad. That's 54 shots at BS4 (Sgts have pistols). 27 hits, wounding on 5's. 11 wounds. Rolling 2+ saves...pass. Space marine turn. They stay still because of missile launcher. Missile launcher targets one squad with frag, Sgt gives both barrels to a second squad, with everyone else. Missile gets 3 shots at BS3. 2 hits, wounding on 3's. 1 wound, rolling 5+ save for the guard being in the open to shoot...saves. Other shooting - Sgt hits with only plasma, wounds on 2, insta killing a guardsman. Special guy misses. Seven bolters - 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved. Guardsmen have taken 3 dead on one squad, rolling for morale...pass.
Points so far: 0pts dead space marine, 12pts dead guard. Turn 2.
Guard continue forward 6 inches - not within double tap range, because everyone starts just over 24in from each other at the start. Same FRFSRF, -3 guys. 48shots BS4, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Rolling for saves...all pass again with 2+ cover saves. Space marines turn. Move forward 6 inches into rapid fire range, fire frag at wounded squad, along with special and Sgt (both barrels). Frag: 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Special: 2 hits, 2 wounds, instakill. Sgt: 1 hit plasma/1 hit bolter, 2 wounds, 0 saves (that squad took 5 casualties, down to 2 guys). Seven bolters at farthest squad within double tap range: 14 shots, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 2 saves (that squad is down to 3). Tactical squads charge: 9 inches, into the one with the most models. Rolling 11 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds...6 saves (that squad only lost 2)! Morale phase: 1st squad loses one more, down to one - 2nd squad rolls a one, is down to 2 guys - 3rd squad rolls a six and loses 1.
Attacks back! 10 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 saves on a 3+. Heroic interventions next: 8 attacks, 6 hits, 0 wounds (!). Rolling 2 saves anyway for statistics...pass!
Infantry squad totals: 1 sgt, 2 guys including sgt, 7 guys including sgt.
Tac Marines: 10 Angry men.
3rd turn. Stay in combat (so marines can't use plas or frag missile). Fire pistols in close combat: 3 shots BS4/2 shots BS3, 2 hits, no wounds. FIX BAYONETS! Infantry guys: 13 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds...two fails! Now for a commander (one ordered himself to fight twice). 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Into the combat phase! Big squad: 6 hits, 1 wound, saved. Space marines fight back on one of the commanders. 9 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails. Continuing: Rest of Infantry do nothing. Space marine turn. Fire bolt pistols to finish off commander. 8 shots, all hit, 2 wounds, 1 fail. Fight phase. Sgt calls out the wounded commander. 1 hit, no wound. Everyone else targets second commander. All hit, 4 wounds, 1 save. (That was probably a miscalculation at this point). Attacks back! Commanders kill one Marine. Sgts hit 8 times, one wound, saved. Other guys 1 hit, no wound.
Turn 4. Guard pistols kill 1 space marine. FIX BAYONETS HARDER! Commanders target themselves, do one wound that is saved. 7 dudes and 2 guys: Sgts do nothing, other guys get 2 kills (Space marines down to 4). Fight phase proper. Big squad does 4 hits, 1 wound...saved. Attacks back. Space marine Sgt fights the two wound commander, everyone else the 1hp one. It's now or never guys! 3 Marines: 1 hit, 1 wound...commander dies! Sgt: 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves. Both commanders are dead. All the other little guys go: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Morale phase: Space marines roll a 4. They're good to go.
Space Marines shooting into largest Infantry squad. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves. Fight same guys: 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves (guard down to 3sgts and 3 dudes). Attacks back: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1 wound, saved (barely). Morale: Guard are fine on a 3.
Turn 5: This is ridiculous. 3 pistols, 1 hit, no wound. Sgt and 2 guys attacks first: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead space marine. Attacks back: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Rest of guard: 7 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds...ALL SAVED! Entering the bottom of the last turn, this is the tally of guys left:
Guard: 3sgts, 2 guys.
Marines: 3 still quite angry men.
Shooting phase, into a sgt with a dude: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Fight. Sgt fights a lone sgt, other guys choose another sgt. All of them do nothing this time. Attacks back: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. 2 Marines left.
Final tally at turn 5:
26 points left Space marines, 16 points left Guard. So yeah, pretty even match ups, at least with my schizo dice. You just gotta learn to stay back on the first turn, weather it out, and charge them when they over-extend for objectives.
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
keep in mind I am rounding to the hundreds place.
111 x .5 = 55.5 x .333 = 18.5 x .333 = 6.15. 6.15 .That's how many marines die!
That is 60% of the squad. There is no point in even doing the marine calculation at that point.
The bolters kill less than 6 though if they shoot first. Plasma and rocket will kill less than 2 more. So 8 dead.
8x4 = 32 points
13x6 = 78 points
Don't roll dice...do math.
How do you get that math? At 24 inch range, FRFSRF only gives you 2 shots. You are a noob. There are only 9 lasguns in a barebones squad. That's 18. For 3 squads, that is exactly 54 shots. You need to read a rulebook.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
I ment they would be auto include in an AM army. They might not be the go to soup generator though. Cause you can do it cheaper with admech and 5 man squads with worse CP generation though.
Here would would have a situation where getting better regen would cost you more points.
First off: Good to see those goalposts are moving again!
So what if "they would be auto-include in an AM army"? What the hell else do you expect them to take? Scions? Tempestor Primes? Maybe Commissars and Conscripts?
You can't be serious...How am I moving goalposts? The original subject is AM infantry point costs - the final subject is AM infantry point cost. Then I gave a practical example how a 50 point increase on Am infantry batallions could create interesting list choices when selecting a command point generating batallion. Choices are normal when things are balanced - that's why I brought that up. Also just to clarify - AM = astra militarium - AdMech = Adept Mechanicum.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Ravemastaj wrote: I just spent 3 hours rolling dice to myself to prove a point. Who wins, a 10 man tac squad, or a bare bones Imp Guard Battalion? They came up pretty even, surprisingly.
Are the marines in cover? 2+ save buys you a couple turns. We'll say it's the first turn at 24in. range, and just do a make-believe battle report.
Marines get the option to go first, rolling a 2 vs a 2. The marines don't want to leave cover to get within 24in though, so they take turn two. Guard goes first, and they move up 6 inches to get in range. One Company Commander tells two guard squads to FRFSRF, the other gives that command to the last squad. That's 54 shots at BS4 (Sgts have pistols). 27 hits, wounding on 5's. 11 wounds. Rolling 2+ saves...pass. Space marine turn. They stay still because of missile launcher. Missile launcher targets one squad with frag, Sgt gives both barrels to a second squad, with everyone else. Missile gets 3 shots at BS3. 2 hits, wounding on 3's. 1 wound, rolling 5+ save for the guard being in the open to shoot...saves. Other shooting - Sgt hits with only plasma, wounds on 2, insta killing a guardsman. Special guy misses. Seven bolters - 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved. Guardsmen have taken 3 dead on one squad, rolling for morale...pass.
Points so far: 0pts dead space marine, 12pts dead guard. Turn 2.
Guard continue forward 6 inches - not within double tap range, because everyone starts just over 24in from each other at the start. Same FRFSRF, -3 guys. 48shots BS4, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Rolling for saves...all pass again with 2+ cover saves. Space marines turn. Move forward 6 inches into rapid fire range, fire frag at wounded squad, along with special and Sgt (both barrels). Frag: 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Special: 2 hits, 2 wounds, instakill. Sgt: 1 hit plasma/1 hit bolter, 2 wounds, 0 saves (that squad took 5 casualties, down to 2 guys). Seven bolters at farthest squad within double tap range: 14 shots, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 2 saves (that squad is down to 3). Tactical squads charge: 9 inches, into the one with the most models. Rolling 11 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds...6 saves (that squad only lost 2)! Morale phase: 1st squad loses one more, down to one - 2nd squad rolls a one, is down to 2 guys - 3rd squad rolls a six and loses 1.
Attacks back! 10 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 saves on a 3+. Heroic interventions next: 8 attacks, 6 hits, 0 wounds (!). Rolling 2 saves anyway for statistics...pass!
Infantry squad totals: 1 sgt, 2 guys including sgt, 7 guys including sgt.
Tac Marines: 10 Angry men.
3rd turn. Stay in combat (so marines can't use plas or frag missile). Fire pistols in close combat: 3 shots BS4/2 shots BS3, 2 hits, no wounds. FIX BAYONETS! Infantry guys: 13 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds...two fails! Now for a commander (one ordered himself to fight twice). 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Into the combat phase! Big squad: 6 hits, 1 wound, saved. Space marines fight back on one of the commanders. 9 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails. Continuing: Rest of Infantry do nothing. Space marine turn. Fire bolt pistols to finish off commander. 8 shots, all hit, 2 wounds, 1 fail. Fight phase. Sgt calls out the wounded commander. 1 hit, no wound. Everyone else targets second commander. All hit, 4 wounds, 1 save. (That was probably a miscalculation at this point). Attacks back! Commanders kill one Marine. Sgts hit 8 times, one wound, saved. Other guys 1 hit, no wound.
Turn 4. Guard pistols kill 1 space marine. FIX BAYONETS HARDER! Commanders target themselves, do one wound that is saved. 7 dudes and 2 guys: Sgts do nothing, other guys get 2 kills (Space marines down to 4). Fight phase proper. Big squad does 4 hits, 1 wound...saved. Attacks back. Space marine Sgt fights the two wound commander, everyone else the 1hp one. It's now or never guys! 3 Marines: 1 hit, 1 wound...commander dies! Sgt: 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves. Both commanders are dead. All the other little guys go: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Morale phase: Space marines roll a 4. They're good to go.
Space Marines shooting into largest Infantry squad. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves. Fight same guys: 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves (guard down to 3sgts and 3 dudes). Attacks back: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1 wound, saved (barely). Morale: Guard are fine on a 3.
Turn 5: This is ridiculous. 3 pistols, 1 hit, no wound. Sgt and 2 guys attacks first: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead space marine. Attacks back: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Rest of guard: 7 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds...ALL SAVED! Entering the bottom of the last turn, this is the tally of guys left:
Guard: 3sgts, 2 guys.
Marines: 3 still quite angry men.
Shooting phase, into a sgt with a dude: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Fight. Sgt fights a lone sgt, other guys choose another sgt. All of them do nothing this time. Attacks back: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. 2 Marines left.
Final tally at turn 5:
26 points left Space marines, 16 points left Guard. So yeah, pretty even match ups, at least with my schizo dice. You just gotta learn to stay back on the first turn, weather it out, and charge them when they over-extend for objectives.
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
keep in mind I am rounding to the hundreds place.
111 x .5 = 55.5 x .333 = 18.5 x .333 = 6.15. 6.15 .That's how many marines die!
That is 60% of the squad. There is no point in even doing the marine calculation at that point.
The bolters kill less than 6 though if they shoot first. Plasma and rocket will kill less than 2 more. So 8 dead.
8x4 = 32 points
13x6 = 78 points
Don't roll dice...do math.
How do you get that math? At 24 inch range, FRFSRF only gives you 2 shots. You are a noob. There are only 9 lasguns in a barebones squad. That's 18. For 3 squads, that is exactly 54 shots. You need to read a rulebook.
The units have the exact same range - I think you need to look up what rapid fire weapons do. They shoot twice at 12 " - pistols have 12" range. You could just...divide by 2 to get the number of killed marines at 24".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pieceocake wrote: What if you could only use stratagems from your warlord's faction? It would be fluffy and might balance things out. If you can't rotate ion shields AND teleport slamguinius, one of them becomes much less effective.
Not a bad approach - though I think it's possibly too extreme. More than likely would just kill allies.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 16:12:36
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
FRFSRF changes your Lasguns to Rapid Fire 2 meaning it would go from 9 shots to 18 shots, outside of half(12") of their 24 inch range.
In Rapid Fire range, that gives you 36 shots. That means you're needing to have
RF1*9=9
RF2*9=18
9*3@over 9"=27
9*2@12"=18
18*2@12=36
18shots@anything over 12"*3=54
36 shots @12"*3=108
Your math is flawed from the beginning, but that sounds about right for your nonsensical rantings about FRFSRF. And please note the huge drop in shot output each step of the way.
keep in mind I am rounding to the hundreds place.
111 x .5 = 55.5 x .333 = 18.5 x .333 = 6.15. 6.15 .That's how many marines die!
That is 60% of the squad. There is no point in even doing the marine calculation at that point.
The bolters kill less than 6 though if they shoot first. Plasma and rocket will kill less than 2 more. So 8 dead.
8x4 = 32 points
13x6 = 78 points
Don't roll dice...do math.
says the guy whose math was flawed from the outset.
Pieceocake wrote: What if you could only use stratagems from your warlord's faction? It would be fluffy and might balance things out. If you can't rotate ion shields AND teleport slamguinius, one of them becomes much less effective.
Not a bad approach - though I think it's possibly too extreme. More than likely would just kill allies.
It is certainly the most simple solution that requires no additional book-keeping.
Ravemastaj wrote: I just spent 3 hours rolling dice to myself to prove a point. Who wins, a 10 man tac squad, or a bare bones Imp Guard Battalion? They came up pretty even, surprisingly.
Are the marines in cover? 2+ save buys you a couple turns. We'll say it's the first turn at 24in. range, and just do a make-believe battle report.
Marines get the option to go first, rolling a 2 vs a 2. The marines don't want to leave cover to get within 24in though, so they take turn two. Guard goes first, and they move up 6 inches to get in range. One Company Commander tells two guard squads to FRFSRF, the other gives that command to the last squad. That's 54 shots at BS4 (Sgts have pistols). 27 hits, wounding on 5's. 11 wounds. Rolling 2+ saves...pass. Space marine turn. They stay still because of missile launcher. Missile launcher targets one squad with frag, Sgt gives both barrels to a second squad, with everyone else. Missile gets 3 shots at BS3. 2 hits, wounding on 3's. 1 wound, rolling 5+ save for the guard being in the open to shoot...saves. Other shooting - Sgt hits with only plasma, wounds on 2, insta killing a guardsman. Special guy misses. Seven bolters - 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 saved. Guardsmen have taken 3 dead on one squad, rolling for morale...pass.
Points so far: 0pts dead space marine, 12pts dead guard. Turn 2.
Guard continue forward 6 inches - not within double tap range, because everyone starts just over 24in from each other at the start. Same FRFSRF, -3 guys. 48shots BS4, 24 hits, 8 wounds. Rolling for saves...all pass again with 2+ cover saves. Space marines turn. Move forward 6 inches into rapid fire range, fire frag at wounded squad, along with special and Sgt (both barrels). Frag: 5 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Special: 2 hits, 2 wounds, instakill. Sgt: 1 hit plasma/1 hit bolter, 2 wounds, 0 saves (that squad took 5 casualties, down to 2 guys). Seven bolters at farthest squad within double tap range: 14 shots, 11 hits, 9 wounds, 2 saves (that squad is down to 3). Tactical squads charge: 9 inches, into the one with the most models. Rolling 11 attacks, 9 hits, 8 wounds...6 saves (that squad only lost 2)! Morale phase: 1st squad loses one more, down to one - 2nd squad rolls a one, is down to 2 guys - 3rd squad rolls a six and loses 1.
Attacks back! 10 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds, 4 saves on a 3+. Heroic interventions next: 8 attacks, 6 hits, 0 wounds (!). Rolling 2 saves anyway for statistics...pass!
Infantry squad totals: 1 sgt, 2 guys including sgt, 7 guys including sgt.
Tac Marines: 10 Angry men.
3rd turn. Stay in combat (so marines can't use plas or frag missile). Fire pistols in close combat: 3 shots BS4/2 shots BS3, 2 hits, no wounds. FIX BAYONETS! Infantry guys: 13 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds...two fails! Now for a commander (one ordered himself to fight twice). 4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Into the combat phase! Big squad: 6 hits, 1 wound, saved. Space marines fight back on one of the commanders. 9 attacks, 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 fails. Continuing: Rest of Infantry do nothing. Space marine turn. Fire bolt pistols to finish off commander. 8 shots, all hit, 2 wounds, 1 fail. Fight phase. Sgt calls out the wounded commander. 1 hit, no wound. Everyone else targets second commander. All hit, 4 wounds, 1 save. (That was probably a miscalculation at this point). Attacks back! Commanders kill one Marine. Sgts hit 8 times, one wound, saved. Other guys 1 hit, no wound.
Turn 4. Guard pistols kill 1 space marine. FIX BAYONETS HARDER! Commanders target themselves, do one wound that is saved. 7 dudes and 2 guys: Sgts do nothing, other guys get 2 kills (Space marines down to 4). Fight phase proper. Big squad does 4 hits, 1 wound...saved. Attacks back. Space marine Sgt fights the two wound commander, everyone else the 1hp one. It's now or never guys! 3 Marines: 1 hit, 1 wound...commander dies! Sgt: 2 attacks, 2 wounds, no saves. Both commanders are dead. All the other little guys go: 4 hits, 2 wounds, 2 saves. Morale phase: Space marines roll a 4. They're good to go.
Space Marines shooting into largest Infantry squad. 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, no saves. Fight same guys: 3 hits, 2 wounds, no saves (guard down to 3sgts and 3 dudes). Attacks back: 12 attacks, 9 hits, 1 wound, saved (barely). Morale: Guard are fine on a 3.
Turn 5: This is ridiculous. 3 pistols, 1 hit, no wound. Sgt and 2 guys attacks first: 4 hits, 3 wounds, 1 dead space marine. Attacks back: 4 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Rest of guard: 7 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds...ALL SAVED! Entering the bottom of the last turn, this is the tally of guys left:
Guard: 3sgts, 2 guys.
Marines: 3 still quite angry men.
Shooting phase, into a sgt with a dude: 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. Fight. Sgt fights a lone sgt, other guys choose another sgt. All of them do nothing this time. Attacks back: 10 attacks, 5 hits, 2 wounds, 1 save. 2 Marines left.
Final tally at turn 5:
26 points left Space marines, 16 points left Guard. So yeah, pretty even match ups, at least with my schizo dice. You just gotta learn to stay back on the first turn, weather it out, and charge them when they over-extend for objectives.
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
keep in mind I am rounding to the hundreds place.
111 x .5 = 55.5 x .333 = 18.5 x .333 = 6.15. 6.15 .That's how many marines die!
That is 60% of the squad. There is no point in even doing the marine calculation at that point.
The bolters kill less than 6 though if they shoot first. Plasma and rocket will kill less than 2 more. So 8 dead.
8x4 = 32 points
13x6 = 78 points
Don't roll dice...do math.
How do you get that math? At 24 inch range, FRFSRF only gives you 2 shots. You are a noob. There are only 9 lasguns in a barebones squad. That's 18. For 3 squads, that is exactly 54 shots. You need to read a rulebook.
The units have the exact same range - I think you need to look up what rapid fire weapons do. They shoot twice at 12 " - pistols have 12" range. You could just...divide by 2 to get the number of killed marines at 24".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pieceocake wrote: What if you could only use stratagems from your warlord's faction? It would be fluffy and might balance things out. If you can't rotate ion shields AND teleport slamguinius, one of them becomes much less effective.
Not a bad approach - though I think it's possibly too extreme. More than likely would just kill allies.
Except I just did that, you lunk. How are you getting 37 SHOTS EACH?!?
FRFSRF gives lasguns Rapid Fire 2. At 24 inch range, as they move up the field, each lasgun can only shoot TWICE. There are only NINE lasguns per squad, due to the Sgt. So that's...DING DING DING, 18 SHOTS! 18x3=54.
If you read what I did, you would understand that there is no point where you have to let someone get within 12 inches of you without charging them. I rolled dice to control for other variables than simple bs than that. A failed charge roll would have killed those tac marines in turn 2, but hey, since they made the 6in charge, they essentially got enough attacks to force a morale phase. You need to play the game, and stop playing math hammer. There is a battlespace, here.
A bolter fires and a Necron succumbs. His corpse rises up as a poxwalker much to the horror of his comrades. Then, to everyone's surprise his corpse rises again as a fully functionality necron. The necron and the poxwalker stare at each other, both wondering which of them is the clone.
I ment they would be auto include in an AM army. They might not be the go to soup generator though. Cause you can do it cheaper with admech and 5 man squads with worse CP generation though.
Here would would have a situation where getting better regen would cost you more points.
First off: Good to see those goalposts are moving again! So what if "they would be auto-include in an AM army"? What the hell else do you expect them to take? Scions? Tempestor Primes? Maybe Commissars and Conscripts?
You can't be serious...How am I moving goalposts? The original subject is AM infantry point costs - the final subject is AM infantry point cost. Then I gave a practical example how a 50 point increase on Am infantry batallions could create interesting list choices when selecting a command point generating batallion. Choices are normal when things are balanced - that's why I brought that up. Also just to clarify - AM = astra militarium - AdMech = Adept Mechanicum.
That is the goalposts being moved. You initially talked about them still being autoincludes in battalions and now you've moved it to "i meant to say...".
Again, do you not understand that there are 3 Troop choices for Guard? Conscripts(nerfed to hell and back again, no squad upgrades, very much the definition of what people whined they wanted them to be: meatshields), Scions(can't receive Orders from non-Scion Officers, can't choose Scions' Regiments, can't do anything with their Regimental rules unless you take them as a pure Scion Detachment), and Infantry Squads.
If you can't understand why Infantry Squads are the de facto Troop choice for anything other than a Scion Detachment, we can't continue this line of discussion. We just can't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/04 16:21:52
I don't think it would entirely kill allies. You can still farm CP with Guard. it would be similar to the way Genestealers ally in Guard (except that they'd get their sub-faction benefit for a pure detachment).
If CP regen was deleted and Relics costed straight CP (no more stratagem) with a limit of 3 total or something, you could still get some use out of the blood angels jet-pack and whatnot too.
Remember when GW said that the new edition was heavily playtesting and balanced?
Remember how we all laughed?
Honestly, those lists highlight how bad a system the current edition is. At the very least try out One Page Rules Grimdark, can use your 40k models and terrain, and the rules are free.
People really need to go play different systems to just see how much of a hot mess 8th is. It does come close to being a good game, but sadly has a lot of the old GW design mentality dragging it down.
The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused.
I can confirm that is BS with simple quick math.
FRFSRFIG squads have 37 shots each x3 = 111 shots.
FRFSRF changes your Lasguns to Rapid Fire 2 meaning it would go from 9 shots to 18 shots, outside of half(12") of their 24 inch range.
In Rapid Fire range, that gives you 36 shots.
All getting very pedantic and nothing to do with the topic, but for clarity...
IG squad, 1 las pistol, 9 lasguns
Unordered
1"-12" - 19 str 3 shots hitting on 4+ (0.5 dead tactical marines)
12"-24" - 9 str 3 shots hitting on 4+ (1.1 dead tactical marines)
FRFSRF 1"-12" - 37 str 3 shots hitting on 4+ (1.0 dead tactical marines)
12"-24" - 18 str 3 shots hitting on 4+ (2.1 dead tactical marines)
Just from skimming over the last couple of pages, here's my input on how some particular issues could be approached.
1: Particular units such as Custodes Jetbikes and Slamguinius get a points hike, or a 0-1/detachment limit similar to Coldstar Commanders.
2: You only get your +3CP bonus if you are not running soup.
3: CP Regen abilities are either killed off entirely, or are limited to one CP per try, or you can only regen CP used on that particular army's Strategems.
I don't want to cut out soup completly, as this completly screws over fluffly armies. I like the allies concept; I can take a couple of squads of Deathwatch with my Guard, or some Custodians with my Marines, but there's a few repeat offenders that could be dealt with in their own way, rather than a blanket "No soup" rule.
