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Yep, they did well in Shelfield Slaughter

FEC, Idoneth, and Beasts are doing well. DoK seem to be on their way out with none in the LVO finals and none in the top 10 of Shelfield Slaughter.

1. Beasts of Chaos
2. Flesh-Eater Courts
3. Idoneth Deepkin
4. Flesh-Eater Courts
5. Mixed Order
6. Legions of Nagash
7. Skaven
8. Skaven
9. Legion of Sacrament
10. Flesh-Eater Courts

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Got to see the new FEC in action today. No surprises; they are as OP as has been generally assessed.

And then some. They are the new bottle of jergens to the fap wagon lol. I can't for the life of me understand how the design team can release something like the goblin book whiich is overall quite fun AND fairly balanced for the most part, and then follow that up with a pair of releases that are related to the dark elves and demons of whfb 7th edition. (for those who weren't around back then, the demons from whfb 7th are probably THE most busted army book GW has ever produced for either of its game systems, pretty much ever and dark elves were also right up there (along with vampire counts)

Honestly they could fix FEC quite easily - make the regent a unique character or cap its ability to summon. That seems to be their core broken area in being able to basically swamp the table with models.

That would certainly help a great deal. But how does something like this get out of the design studio in the first place? Most of us knew it was broken when it was leaked to warhammer-community in less than five seconds of reading it? You could hear the sock drawers of thousands of players open in unison and boy if that carrion empire box didn't sell out before it even hit the shelves pretty much everywhere.

It could be really simple such as they balanced the Arch Regent t o be a unique character and then some manifesto from head office required all battlebox characters to be regular not unique. So suddenly that aspect got changed, but it was after the balance pass so they had no time to change anything else about the hero. Heck it might be the interrupt got in when management reviewed the content - made one change to the warscroll and sent to print.

 Eldarsif wrote:
DoK seem to be on their way out with none in the LVO finals and none in the top 10 of Shelfield Slaughter.

Whats the story behind that? Because it seems like its been quietly happening for a few months now.

Did the competitive meta shift? Did people adapt their armies/tactics to better combat the DoK? New armies with more competitive rules now outperform them? TO’s choosing scenarios unfriendly to DoK netlists? Did the competitive scene maybe even self correct, recognize they are broken and move onto something else to change it up? Or is its something as simple as them being a fairly expensive army to collect and there are less players? I personally think its a mixture of all of the above. Had a new GHB neutered them, we’d have a better picture of the hows and whys, but it feels like its been an organic, player-centric response to DoK, rather than just waiting on GW to write new points costs and I love it.

They are still a powerful army for sure, but its fun seeing them have their time in the sun and being displaced(so it seems).

Seems to be a recurring thing with AoS. Some vocal folks will hem and haw about how “X broke the game” “X is auto-win” and such, then once their OP strawman for how AoS is broken starts to lose its shine, radio silence from the doomsayers where no one really talks about how the meta responded. And the cycle continues onto the next “X broke the game” thing.

DoKs powerhouse was always leader support - I wager some have learned to snipe the leaders to slow down the power of DoK. That and shooting them like crazy before they get into close combat. Nice to see them getting displaced without a major balance change though!

Heh. Archregent spam is a trap option for noobs. Going MSU with an army of overcosted models that rely on regrowing units and a fight twice command is a sure way to lose. If FEC do well it will be with Gristlegore monster spam, always fighting first and fighting twice.

Well apparently the FEC new book had 3 top 10 placings at LVO.

auticus wrote:
Well apparently the FEC new book had 3 top 10 placings at LVO.

When the FEC book is so broken it breaks the space time continuum and wins an event while its still on pre-order and places in 3 spots instead of 1(the winner).

I'm just going off what I heard. Hence the word apparently. If thats wrong and it was the old list that suddenly showed up to take 3 of the top 10 then ok.

It had top 3 placements in Shelfield Slaughter. At LVO a FEC player was in first place and that before the tome came out. That player was the only FEC player in top 10.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Yep, they did well in Shelfield Slaughter

FEC, Idoneth, and Beasts are doing well. DoK seem to be on their way out with none in the LVO finals and none in the top 10 of Shelfield Slaughter.

1. Beasts of Chaos
2. Flesh-Eater Courts
3. Idoneth Deepkin
4. Flesh-Eater Courts
5. Mixed Order
6. Legions of Nagash
7. Skaven
8. Skaven
9. Legion of Sacrament
10. Flesh-Eater Courts

Regarding DoK I think a part of it is missions. I know the Shelfield Slaughter missions used missions that allowed you to burn objectives which tends to make games one-sided for certain armies.

DoK also don't have any summoning and rely somewhat on later turn buffs which could be unfavorable in a tournament setting. Haven't competed much with them in higher points(only 1000 points) so I wouldn't know.

Gotcha. Thanks for the correction.

auticus wrote:
That would certainly help a great deal. But how does something like this get out of the design studio in the first place? Most of us knew it was broken when it was leaked to warhammer-community in less than five seconds of reading it? You could hear the sock drawers of thousands of players open in unison and boy if that carrion empire box didn't sell out before it even hit the shelves pretty much everywhere.

Seriously? You don't know "how something like this gets out of the design studio in the first place"?

It's because, like most non-tournament players...GW expects people to self-police their lists and to Not Be A Jerk.

It's because, like most non-tournament players...GW expects people to self-police their lists and to Not Be A Jerk.

But they and the community were dogpiling negative comments about balance stating they were doing everything in their power to make things balanced and fun.

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:
That would certainly help a great deal. But how does something like this get out of the design studio in the first place? Most of us knew it was broken when it was leaked to warhammer-community in less than five seconds of reading it? You could hear the sock drawers of thousands of players open in unison and boy if that carrion empire box didn't sell out before it even hit the shelves pretty much everywhere.

Seriously? You don't know "how something like this gets out of the design studio in the first place"?

It's because, like most non-tournament players...GW expects people to self-police their lists and to Not Be A Jerk.

This. I also expect any hero-centric army to eventually fall from the top as soon as people learn to snipe the characters. These guys are still going to be powerful, but I don't expect them to be the be-all-end-all meta breaker. I actually expect the zombie dragon battleline to be their most OP aspect, and that could be curbed by if tournaments focus on objective-based games.

The main problem with the arch regent army list is that they can ping their ability of summoning from their deployment zone. This means they can be pretty safe from most armies and cast their summoning ability and then move forward; by which point sure the regents aren't super-fighters but they are good; and they are backed up by the summoned army that might be far closer.

Armies like Daughters of Khaine on the other hand; have leaders that are moving forward and give an aura bonus so you've got a lot more chance of them moving into range to be taken out; plus once they are gone the buffs are gone with them; with the regent unless the player hasn't, for some reason, summoned; then the regent is only valuable as itself on the board after the first summoning turn.

Armies like Daughters of Khaine on the other hand; have leaders that are moving forward and give an aura bonus so you've got a lot more chance of them moving into range to be taken out; plus once they are gone the buffs are gone with them; with the regent unless the player hasn't, for some reason, summoned; then the regent is only valuable as itself on the board after the first summoning turn.

This is an interesting point. I wonder how this applies to other armies besides DoK or FEC.

 Overread wrote:
The main problem with the arch regent army list is that they can ping their ability of summoning from their deployment zone. This means they can be pretty safe from most armies and cast their summoning ability and then move forward; by which point sure the regents aren't super-fighters but they are good; and they are backed up by the summoned army that might be far closer.

Sure, but it's also important to remember that back in the day those same kinds of things would be parked in a death star doing the same damn thing. This isn't new guys.

Also, "Look Out Sir!" was a mistake to bring back.

Armies like Daughters of Khaine on the other hand; have leaders that are moving forward and give an aura bonus so you've got a lot more chance of them moving into range to be taken out; plus once they are gone the buffs are gone with them; with the regent unless the player hasn't, for some reason, summoned; then the regent is only valuable as itself on the board after the first summoning turn.

You're also just plain ignoring that metashifts are going to happen. There's always a period where X will suddenly dominate after coming out, because people are still figuring out what/how to deal with it.

Hell, when Idoneth first came out? I was waiting for the (no pun intended!) bubble to pop locally of my getting to use Mor'phann effectively. It still hasn't, because people refuse to try to reposition to get at my Soulrenders. They expect to blender their way through the Thralls and kill the Soulrender that way.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Heh. Archregent spam is a trap option for noobs. Going MSU with an army of overcosted models that rely on regrowing units and a fight twice command is a sure way to lose. If FEC do well it will be with Gristlegore monster spam, always fighting first and fighting twice.

Nah, the monster spam is a trap. Monsters don't hold objectives, and an Archregent alone is worth more points than an unridden terrorgheist. The full on 6-archregent is just a fun theory but 3-4 is very ideal. Blisterskin is much more tournament viable between extra command points, a potent anti-shooting artifact, and a nice movement buff. It can alpha strike with flayers & terrys turn 1 with cogs. The FEC guy I know (who has been playing them since the first battletome and has taken them to multiple tournaments) is planning two mounted terrys, three archregents, and deadwatch. If I see gristlegore across the table I am just going to gun down the heroes and beat the monsters in melee while holding objectives to boot. Blisterskin? Probably just concede. Saying the army needs regrowing units and should monster spam in the same paragraph is self-defeating. The icing on the cake is that bringing back models is best done by Varghulf courtiers, meaning the most efficient way to run a list focused on deathstar instead of MSU is... 3-4 Archregents.

Archregents also kick ass even without summoning. They are hard to put down, aren't bad in melee, cast/unbind twice, and have an absolutely awesome warscroll spell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

auticus wrote:
That would certainly help a great deal. But how does something like this get out of the design studio in the first place? Most of us knew it was broken when it was leaked to warhammer-community in less than five seconds of reading it? You could hear the sock drawers of thousands of players open in unison and boy if that carrion empire box didn't sell out before it even hit the shelves pretty much everywhere.

Seriously? You don't know "how something like this gets out of the design studio in the first place"?

It's because, like most non-tournament players...GW expects people to self-police their lists and to Not Be A Jerk.

It is one thing to have an army with certain exploits or OP units, it is another to have one that is massively OP just from showing up. I need my tourney tier builds in order to compete with a merely average FEC build. LoN is similar but was not totally broken until the new edition came out, and even then is not this bad.

Archregents are one of those things that if they cared about narrative they'd limit to one on the table. They are supposed to be the king daddy emperor.

There isn't a reason for four of them to be running together in every game like that.

IMO.

Now - you *can* make a for fun FEC army. You simply limit yourself to one arch regent and keep the monster stuff limited. Funny enough we have like three guys here doing FEC and they are all building something similar to what you described Ninth.

Lets not try and bring reason into a faction who are basically utterly insane ghouls who are convinced they are all kings and knights and regents caring for their people whilst they nibble on bits of peoples bones

auticus wrote:
Now - you *can* make a for fun FEC army. You simply limit yourself to one arch regent and keep the monster stuff limited. Funny enough we have like three guys here doing FEC and they are all building something similar to what you described Ninth.

Being able to burn a cp to have a unit fight again -immediately- undermines any attempt to make a friendly list, unfortunately. Unridden terry is undercosted, ridden terry is flat-out OP. Blisterskin and Gristlegore are OP. Archregent is probably a 220-240 point hero without summoning due to being a great spellcaster and his warscroll spell. The amount of things one needs to dodge to make a friendly list means one needs to know things pretty well to actually avoid cheesing out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
Lets not try and bring reason into a faction who are basically utterly insane ghouls who are convinced they are all kings and knights and regents caring for their people whilst they nibble on bits of peoples bones

They wrote the fluff, and it is pretty clear multiple Archregents working together on the same battlefield is basically unheard of.

Though on a related note, my favorite fluff snippet is when from FEC come across Bloodbound cannibalizing the dead and are like "You would eat the flesh of your own kind!? YOU HEATHENS!!"

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Though on a related note, my favorite fluff snippet is when from FEC come across Bloodbound cannibalizing the dead and are like "You would eat the flesh of your own kind!? YOU HEATHENS!!"

Then they gobble up everything anyway at the end. I love FEC lore.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Nah, the monster spam is a trap. Monsters don't hold objectives, and an Archregent alone is worth more points than an unridden terrorgheist. The full on 6-archregent is just a fun theory but 3-4 is very ideal. Blisterskin is much more tournament viable between extra command points, a potent anti-shooting artifact, and a nice movement buff. It can alpha strike with flayers & terrys turn 1 with cogs. The FEC guy I know (who has been playing them since the first battletome and has taken them to multiple tournaments) is planning two mounted terrys, three archregents, and deadwatch. If I see gristlegore across the table I am just going to gun down the heroes and beat the monsters in melee while holding objectives to boot. Blisterskin? Probably just concede. Saying the army needs regrowing units and should monster spam in the same paragraph is self-defeating. The icing on the cake is that bringing back models is best done by Varghulf courtiers, meaning the most efficient way to run a list focused on deathstar instead of MSU is... 3-4 Archregents.

I think once you decide to go Flayers hard enough to go Deadwatch you don't even need Blisterskin anymore and you're better off doing Feast Day for the free extra fight or Gristlegore for fight first and double hits. The list you mention sounds like 3k points tho. 2 GKoTG, 3 Regents, Deadwatch and the compulsory Courtier leaves you room for 6 Flayers in 2k, not even enough for three minimum battlelines. And once again you're in MSU, which is suicide. My first draft Flayer list had 1 mounted king and 2 Regents, that's the maximum heroes you can stuff in 2k while keeping Flayers at a useful size.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now here's that 2nd place FEC at Sheffield Slaughter
https://i2.wp.com/aosshorts.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/D0FI7ItX0AIDgE8.jpg

Gristlegore, GKoTG, 3 Monsters, 2 Archregents.

Sorry my bad, he only has two Archregents when he's running two mounted terrys, or one mounted terry and four regents. I should probably walk back my claims and say I was wrong to phrase it as "spam" when really it's 2-4.

But still, you said regrowing units is essential; where is that in the winning list? And you did not address that the best way to run deathstar is with archregents. MSU FEC is hardly suicide and has been doing fine for a while (minus ghouls, where obviously msu is rather bad). I've never seen more than a 6-man unit at tournaments. The big factor is that while one 3-man unit is easy to pick off at range, once there are three to four of those units in melee next to heroes it becomes extremely difficult to do so, and any ability to focus fire is already used on heroes in the first place.

Sidenote; standard caveat of it being one tourney result with a brand new tome and not a trend but I think in this case pre-existing FEC players would already have all/most the models they needed assembled and painted anyways so this particular result is worth paying attention to a bit more than normal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So re-reading I realize rushed typing on my phone has resulted in me ineffectively communicating what I mean. That is probably a source of some of this disagreement and I apologise. To clairfy:

-I was wrong when I said Archregent "spam" was ideal because going with just two is very powerful as well and that isn't really spam.

-I think going full-monster battleline is a trap, because it eats up a lot of points for low model count and because ultimately an unridden monster is simply not as points efficient as a mounted one. For example I see two mounted terrys (800) is worth more than three unmounted ones (900). Because those mounted ones have more attacks, self healing, spellcasting, bring in a 160 point unit, and can take the mount trait for re-rolling hits on the maw.

-Gristlegore I still think is OP, just not for monster battleline.

-I think Blisterskin is better because it provides more tactical flexibility. Gristlegore helps the nastiest units in the army punch harder in melee, but they are already really good at that and I have found when playing as/against a skilled player being able to do something you are good at better is often not as useful as tactical flexibility. But I don't thing there is a huge gap between the two in cheese factor, ultimately.

-Blisterskin has an orange paint scheme and is therefore the best anyways.

-IMO any competitive FEC list is going to start with a mounted terry (with mount trait for re-roll hits on the maw) and two archregents, then a choice of Blisterskin or Gristlegore. So basically the first 800 points is fixed as a clearly superior option and 11 of the mount traits, two of the grand courts, all of the delusions, and all of the command traits are just for fluffy lists. Outside of battalions all courtiers other than the varghulf are for fluffy lists, and the varghulf is only for summoning in with an archregent. THAT is the biggest dissapointment about this tome's balance to me; not just some but the overwhelming majority of options are not merely sub par but vastly and obviously inferior. That just isn't fun for anyone involved and it's a dam shame.

I agree with most of that but I definitely think Feast Day is a strong contender for a third top tier "court" that doesn't stymie you on artefacts and command traits.

On the MSU and monsters vs regrowing front, I should clarify that you don't need to bring regrowing units - just that if you do bring them, they should be big enough to survive until they can regrow. 3 Flayers are a terrible battleline and only decent as a summon because you can maybe put them where they're useful without being shot dead on the way in. And if you're sinking 230 pts into Deadwatch (with the Courtier tax) you better bring at least one deathstar to actually use that bonus fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One very important list building consideration will be the Medal of Madness errata. If it allows a free use of Feeding Frenzy, we might actually see some Courtiers in the deployment phase.

The thing is having msu shot to death on the way in is advantageous because they didn't shoot the terrorgheist.

Is the main issue with FEC then multiple archregents? Because yeah that's an issue. But his summon ability is only once per game otherwise, you just get to take your pick of what you get.

I think you'll see people abusing multiple Archregents and the throne (one of which needs to be FAQ'd: Either the archregent needs to be treated as a character, or the throne has to be limited to once per turn or something).

Are these lists all using the Gristlegore monster mash? Because that looks ridiculous just by having battleline monsters and then summon in everything else. The rest of it, a an FEC player myself, seems pretty strong but not insane, but I don't play in tournaments.

For me I have two lists, neither of which seem to be that OP but strong due to how the book is: One is Hollowmourne with 2x6 Horrors, 40 Ghouls, King on Dragon (for re-roll wounds since Horrors already re-roll hits), Archregent, some courtiers and the Abattoir battalion. The other (the more competitive one probably) is Blisterskin with Deadwatch and 6/3/3 Flayers, 40 ghouls, King on Gheist, Archregent and some courtiers.

Now I'm a horrible player but neither of those seem like they'll be insane. I certainly wouldn't take like 4 archregents or whatever sort of nonsense you see out there. As someone who loves the army I don't want to be labeled TFG because my army now got mega buffs when I played them from the original version that was super weak.

The TFG label only happens if you're facing casuals or for fun players with tournament stuff.

If your group are powergamers as well, they shouldn't care. In fact they should embrace it lovingly.