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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 01:17:26
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Uhm... If you balance the game you balance it for all power levels. The fan comps did it so I don't see why GW could not. They choose not to, but that is a separate issue.
As the saying goes; a rising tide sinks all cheese. Or something like that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 01:58:22
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 05:04:32
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Not as Good as a Minion
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NinthMusketeer wrote:Yeah, I stopped saying they were incompetent because it was quite clear that the effort simply was not being made.
Apathy is a measure of incompetence as much as ignorance. A cop who doesn't care to follow procedure is just as incompetent as one who didn't know the procedure. Heck, I would say that it is more damning of a person to be in a job and do it apathetically than one who took on a job outside their wheelhouse. If you know how to do a job, but do it poorly because you simply don't care to in almost any other market, you get fired.
But then again, Games Workshop is not in the business to sell games, they are in it to sell models, and power creep does sell models until the purchaser gets sick of it or can no longer keep up.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 05:57:41
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Charistoph wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:Yeah, I stopped saying they were incompetent because it was quite clear that the effort simply was not being made.
Apathy is a measure of incompetence as much as ignorance. A cop who doesn't care to follow procedure is just as incompetent as one who didn't know the procedure. Heck, I would say that it is more damning of a person to be in a job and do it apathetically than one who took on a job outside their wheelhouse. If you know how to do a job, but do it poorly because you simply don't care to in almost any other market, you get fired.
But then again, Games Workshop is not in the business to sell games, they are in it to sell models, and power creep does sell models until the purchaser gets sick of it or can no longer keep up.
I would agree, but in that analogy the cop does not create the procedure, whereas GW does. Whatever they do is the procedure, thus the distinction.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 08:00:37
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Monstrous Master Moulder
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Well, GW did attempt to show people there's more than 1 way to play the game with their three modes of play... And lots of "self-policing" is involved as a community to actually make that work. I'm not sure every local gaming group succeeds that well in this task though.
Around here, lots of people do not enjoy the cutthroat competitive play where entire units get deleted in a single phase, so Path to Glory is now being tried... and it's surprisingly balanced so far. (no big monsters, no insane hero overlapping abilities, no mega deathstar units).
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The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 13:55:17
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Path to Glory is fun but does suffer from gw balance issues. For instance the vamp on zombie dragon starting out. Automatically Appended Next Post: Self policing is very hard because you buy the army and assemble and paint it. Normally after seeing what is strong. Toning down often involves buying and assembling more models which people dont want to do.
If the rules were just balanced to begin with there would be no need to self police.
I play in a kings of war, warlords of erehwon, middle earth, and battletech group and none of those require self policing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/02 13:58:05
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 17:09:59
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Path to Glory has some spots that need rounding out but overall it's pretty awesome. I play more PtG than matched play these days.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 19:42:38
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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Wayniac wrote: Skimask Mohawk wrote:Wow, gristlgore monsters lose behemoth.
Fec are clearly op, which is ironic because I sold off my DoK because they just weren't fun to play. The good news is that while I did cwt carrion throne to start my collection, I don't have any of the monsters. Just ghouls, lots of them. And it's looking like another DoK situation where the monster kits are getting snapped up completely.
Yeah, it's ridiculous and FEC are my primary army. What I find more ridiculous is that they explicitly said the opposite for Beastclaw; they got both Keywords. For some strange reason, they ruled opposite on FEC. This tells me that they aren't even bothering to look at previous rules they've already written. There's no consistency. An army can have the same thing, and they will function in two completely different ways because the team won't remember that they ruled a certain way for the first army in an FAQ/ GHB/etc. and rule it a completely different way for the second.
It's like the old joke when GW had the "Roolz Boyz" hotline you could call: Call three different times, get three different answers. Only the designers themselves are doing it.
Well. It's not like this is new for GW. Remember when other space marines had 3++ stormshields and smoke launchers that gave 5+ cover save and dark angels had 4++ and penetrations are glances?
Inconsistenty is name of GW. And new GW is just old GW with better PR.
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 19:54:51
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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Everyone talks about the Terrorgiest, hows the Dragon compare?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 20:47:22
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Foxy Wildborne
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AduroT wrote:Everyone talks about the Terrorgiest, hows the Dragon compare?
Poorly. It has a few more secondary attacks and a more reliable ranged attack, but lacks the oomph of 6 mortal wonds on a natural 6 to hit with the jaw. The ridden version also costs 40 pts more and is now a very poor platform to summon a Vargulf from compared to an Archregent. The unridden version also lacks built-in healing.
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The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 21:11:54
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Dragon is fine, terry is OP. So the dragon doesn't stack up by comparison but is not actually bad. The ridden one does have a fantastic warscroll spell and that is really the reason to take him (but still not as good as terry).
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 21:29:57
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Monstrous Master Moulder
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The dragon is mainly used for the pretty insane aura spell it has.
It can't explode on 6s, but it's pretty solid still. Especially with rending claws. Getting -2 and -3 rends is often just as good. It's great if you run a battalion so you can get a GKoZD and GKoTG together.
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The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 22:20:01
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Not as Good as a Minion
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Charistoph wrote: NinthMusketeer wrote:Yeah, I stopped saying they were incompetent because it was quite clear that the effort simply was not being made.
Apathy is a measure of incompetence as much as ignorance. A cop who doesn't care to follow procedure is just as incompetent as one who didn't know the procedure. Heck, I would say that it is more damning of a person to be in a job and do it apathetically than one who took on a job outside their wheelhouse. If you know how to do a job, but do it poorly because you simply don't care to in almost any other market, you get fired.
But then again, Games Workshop is not in the business to sell games, they are in it to sell models, and power creep does sell models until the purchaser gets sick of it or can no longer keep up.
I would agree, but in that analogy the cop does not create the procedure, whereas GW does. Whatever they do is the procedure, thus the distinction.
The procedure we're talking about is not the base rules of their game, but how to create a balanced game, and there are standards for that which are being ignored.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/02 22:27:38
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Hm, that does make sense.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 14:21:50
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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The uk tourney guys are saying that the fec book is not that bad and that in a month it will be no big deal. Automatically Appended Next Post: The non tournament scene being broken is always just hand waived.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 14:29:06
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 16:26:01
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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FEC were showing up at tournaments and doing alright before (also won some but that guy is very skilled) so yeeeahhh... They'll still be dominating in a month. They will take DoK's spot in the top three trio with SCE and LoN.
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 17:45:43
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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If I'm reading between the lines, I think they mean that it'll get nerfed and something else will be busted so in the end its a wash.
But it basically supports the churn and burn of tournament play as being acceptable to the rest of the game and its denizens.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 19:41:21
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Dakka Veteran
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I see GW nerfing them in a month or 2.
They will keep them for now for sales purposes, but by April they will likely get grounded a bit.
I'd say we see the Archregent become unique and behemoths retain that status even as battle line.
Even with those 2 tweaks they will be a solid army, but I feel those 2 really tip the scales on it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 20:40:49
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Considering the work they did on the last two battletomes I am becoming more and more curious what we'll see when the Blade of Khorne tome comes out.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 20:45:17
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor
Gathering the Informations.
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Jackal90 wrote:I see GW nerfing them in a month or 2.
They will keep them for now for sales purposes, but by April they will likely get grounded a bit.
I'd say we see the Archregent become unique and behemoths retain that status even as battle line.
Even with those 2 tweaks they will be a solid army, but I feel those 2 really tip the scales on it.
What sales purposes?
Seriously, Carrion Empire was the big ticket item and it sold out day of.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 21:16:21
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Eldarsif wrote:Considering the work they did on the last two battletomes I am becoming more and more curious what we'll see when the Blade of Khorne tome comes out.
They've been bouncing around. Goblin book was pretty cool and mostly balanced. Skaven book was moderately OP with some fun stuff in it but a powergamer magnet. FEC book is on par with 7th ed demons of whfb broken. So I expect blades of khorne to be what they've always been in AOS... probably goblin level or a bit weaker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 21:55:53
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Monstrous Master Moulder
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I'm pretty sure FEC isn't WHFB 7th demons style broken...
I'm not a betting man, but I'm willing to put money on Skaven becoming the long term more successful battletome. Simply because they are more versatile, have more tools at their disposal AND are way less reliant on one or 2 models doing all the heavy lifting.
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The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:02:26
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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I'm pretty sure FEC isn't WHFB 7th demons style broken...
At the very least its "oh i showed up with 2000 pts of FEC with 3 or 4 arch regents and a bunch of terrorgheists... and you showed up with... a casual fun list. Do you want to do something else instead?"
I actually saw that very discussion happen yesterday only it was 40k.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 22:02:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:02:41
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Nihilistic Necron Lord
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I want to do the all Terries army, not because it’s broken but because it would amuse me. I’m worried of them retracting that “not behemoths” ruling after I buy and paint all of them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:13:34
Subject: Re:AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Do you really need more than 4 terries?
auticus wrote: Eldarsif wrote:Considering the work they did on the last two battletomes I am becoming more and more curious what we'll see when the Blade of Khorne tome comes out.
They've been bouncing around. Goblin book was pretty cool and mostly balanced. Skaven book was moderately OP with some fun stuff in it but a powergamer magnet. FEC book is on par with 7th ed demons of whfb broken. So I expect blades of khorne to be what they've always been in AOS... probably goblin level or a bit weaker.
Skaven I am more forgiving of because there are so many units it was pretty much inevitable that some would be overpowered and some would be underpowered. They also fell into the trap of looking at a warscroll that was underperforming, buffing said warscroll, AND giving it allegiance abilities that buff it further.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 22:13:57
Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:15:04
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Dakka Veteran
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Kanluwen wrote:Jackal90 wrote:I see GW nerfing them in a month or 2.
They will keep them for now for sales purposes, but by April they will likely get grounded a bit.
I'd say we see the Archregent become unique and behemoths retain that status even as battle line.
Even with those 2 tweaks they will be a solid army, but I feel those 2 really tip the scales on it.
What sales purposes?
Seriously, Carrion Empire was the big ticket item and it sold out day of.
I don't get this whole sold out thing online.
Local GW has been getting them in stock just fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:16:06
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Elmir wrote:I'm pretty sure FEC isn't WHFB 7th demons style broken...
I'm not a betting man, but I'm willing to put money on Skaven becoming the long term more successful battletome. Simply because they are more versatile, have more tools at their disposal AND are way less reliant on one or 2 models doing all the heavy lifting.
Well saying it isn't as bad as 7th daemons is kind of like saying a world leader isn't as bad as Hitler*. I do think Skaven will be more successful in the long term because their overpowered lies more in the 'undercosted' territory where there are a good number of warscrolls that should really cost more but do not trump actual skill in-game. It means both that it takes more skill to exploit, has more diversity in said exploits, and is more difficult to target for obviously needing nerfs.
* lol Godwin's law
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Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page
I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.
I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:20:21
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Monstrous Master Moulder
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auticus wrote:I'm pretty sure FEC isn't WHFB 7th demons style broken...
At the very least its "oh i showed up with 2000 pts of FEC with 3 or 4 arch regents and a bunch of terrorgheists... and you showed up with... a casual fun list. Do you want to do something else instead?"
I actually saw that very discussion happen yesterday only it was 40k.
I know you like harping on about that point ( tbh it's starting to be beating a dead horse at this point), but if somebody comes with a casual list against a highly competitive "spammy netlist", they will indeed not have a lot of fun. This isn't a pure FEC thing by any stretch of the imagination... If I take a cutthroat DoK, LoN, SCE, IDK, GSG, BoC,.... list against somebody casually strolling into a shop with whatever he has painted up recently, it'll be a terrible, unenjoyable game. It's been like that in WHFB 4-5th edition, WH40k 2nd to 8th edition, warmachine mk1/2, confrontation, bushido and pretty much any "open wargame" I've played since I was a 12 year old boy.
In fact, FEC are only really "worse" in this regard because they only have 13 unit warscrolls to select from to begin with, and 3 of them are very good for their points cost (which can be changed in less than a year).... But that doesn't make them WHFB 7th style broken, not even close to that insanity in fact.
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The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:24:37
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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The entirety of the demon list wasn't broken either in 7th edition. It was only a few of the things that were, but those were beyond the stratosphere broken.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:30:36
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Monstrous Master Moulder
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NinthMusketeer wrote:Well saying it isn't as bad as 7th daemons is kind of like saying a world leader isn't as bad as Hitler*. I do think Skaven will be more successful in the long term because their overpowered lies more in the 'undercosted' territory where there are a good number of warscrolls that should really cost more but do not trump actual skill in-game. It means both that it takes more skill to exploit, has more diversity in said exploits, and is more difficult to target for obviously needing nerfs.
* lol Godwin's law
Hehe, that law does hold up anywhere...
I'm not sure I agree with Skaven's power being it's low points cost however. I'm tipping them as overall winners long term for several reasons:
1) Very difficult to remove heroes that provide very solid buffs.
2) Insane tanking units like warpseer verminlords.
3) Unconventional shooting weapons that can deal with essential opposing infantry heroes along with insanely good firepower to take out large monsters with jezzails and gattlings (especially with skryre warpstone tokens)
4) Dirt cheap bodies
5)Teleportation shennanigans
6) very strong potential magic output, boosted by free arcane terrain pieces.
7) lots of combo abilities through stacking different command traits.
That's my reasoning why I think Skaven will stand the test of time a lot better than FEC, who's only real tool is "hit things very hard and fast". And like I said a few pages ago: as soon as this game starts taking a turn towards more shooty armies being released (or made better like KO), those fragile monsters aren't going to be nearly as scary, especially for a force that'll be very vulnerable to a GHB price hike on it's prize ponies.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/03 22:34:01
The boy, I say, the boy is as sharp as a sack of wet mice... |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/03/03 22:43:26
Subject: AoS General Discussion
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Clousseau
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Don't forget FEC also can summon a crap load of free points onto the table as well as recycle dead units for even more free points.
Heavy shooty or not, its hard to overcome a 3000-2000 point handicap game.
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