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Good that he can dispel endless, it was lame he couldn't before.

So far liking all the warscroll changes I have seen. The daemon updates from wrath & rapture are good, and these ones are good. The skaven ones were good too for that matter, just messed up by the point costs.

Come to think of it in strict warscroll terms the only newer ones I have a problem with are FEC. Before that Nighthaunt & Sequitors. They have been doing a good job overall making them flavorful but also playable.

I'm looking forward to assembling and painting some more Khornites. Everything is just so streamlined and nothing feels like it went up to 11.

Well, they still didn't fix the Skullcrushers, Mighty LOK, Khorgas Khul, or Lord on Juggernaut to be Mortal/Daemon. Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh get them, Khorne doesn't. WTH? Makes absolutely zero sense. Sounds like something to ask GW, and just "okay" with my opponents. It's asine to not have it. Probably Wrathmongers as well, since they're supposed to be half daemonic/half human.

Mutated/empowered mortals have never been daemons; it is having a daemon mount that gives them the keyword. You are right that the skullcrushers & juggy lord should have it, but the others don't have their equivalents in other gods being daemons either. Blightkings, tzaangors, enlightened on foot all do not have the keyword.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Mutated/empowered mortals have never been daemons; it is having a daemon mount that gives them the keyword. You are right that the skullcrushers & juggy lord should have it, but the others don't have their equivalents in other gods being daemons either. Blightkings, tzaangors, enlightened on foot all do not have the keyword.

Mighty Lord of khorne and Khorgas Khul have the flesh hound pet

And tzaangors are mutated; they aren’t actually Daemons or half Daemon. Wrathmonger s are half Daemon. So is Valkia. And she’s listed as mortal. They just don’t make sense. They should get the benefits (and curses) of both.

Well GW has said they are not daemons, and that is always how they have done it in AoS. Can you explain your reasoning for why that should change from a rules perspective? Because fluff wise it is cut-and-dry; that is how they wrote it.

Where does it say Wrathmongers are half daemon? Honest question, I'm a sucker for GW fluff however korney it may be.


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 Rydria wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Mutated/empowered mortals have never been daemons; it is having a daemon mount that gives them the keyword. You are right that the skullcrushers & juggy lord should have it, but the others don't have their equivalents in other gods being daemons either. Blightkings, tzaangors, enlightened on foot all do not have the keyword.

Mighty Lord of khorne and Khorgas Khul have the flesh hound pet

Which is a fair point. I assume GW decided that being mounted on a daemon is enough to gain the keyword, but having a 'pet' one isn't. Festus is the same way.

Mechanically speaking I personally do not feel even daemon-mounted mortals should have the daemon keyword as it lets them 'double dip' on benefits. There are some abilities that make it undesirable to be a daemon but they are not particularly common.

From the Warhammer wikia:

The beings that emerge from the Brazen Cage are greater than those that entered. They have become wrathmongers, mortal flesh made mighty through battle, and infused with the unnatural energies of a daemon. They have fought upon the battlegrounds of their soul and emerged victorious; what is there to fear after such a trial? Moreover, they now walk upon the very cusp of reality, the daemon subjugated within providing them with a conduit to the boundless power of the Realm of Chaos.

So a bit daemonic maybe.

Mechanically speaking I personally do not feel even daemon-mounted mortals should have the daemon keyword as it lets them 'double dip' on benefits. There are some abilities that make it undesirable to be a daemon but they are not particularly common.

I feel the same way. Its really mostly benefit very little drawback, and its one of the things that I agree with on the design team. I want to see a differentiate between mortals and demons. The books outlie the two factions as separate within the same book, so mechanically they should be separate (and they are)

Except the other three Chaos gods have this ability. Khorne is excluded. And it’s been that way since the first BoK book. DoT and MKoN both got books after where this ability came into play. So the exact same situation is NOT being treated the same in each corresponding book. Whether you like it or not, a Khorne warrior riding a Juggernaut is as much a combination of mortal on Daemon as a Tzaangor on Disc or Blightking on Plague Drone is (Or marauder on Steed of Slaanesh, but they don’t have a proper book yet).

The design team changes design paradigms every three months or so. All this means is that now they've decided that those things don't give demonic benefits anymore.

Tzeentch, Nurgle, and Slaanesh all do not have up to date books iwth this paradigms. Tzeentch and Nurgle are outdated and reflected a different paradigm.

It is what it is. The only thing I can tell you is houserule it with your play group. If you are in a tournament community that abhors house rules then you will just have to find a way to accept it.

The Maggoth Lords aren't Daemons either, eventhough one of them is literally a swarm of daemon-flies wearing an Edgar suit.

They like sugar-water.

I don't mind having buffs that affect both mortals and daemons like the Bloodsecrator, but I feel that should be in the buff and there should not be overlap on regular units between daemon-only and mortal-only buffs. If it is a particularly powerful character or unusual unit sure, but that should be considered a special benefit the warscroll has. There could also be battalions that give the daemon keyword to mortal models.

In case anyone missed this:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

Important bits: Phase is split into 3 parts (start, during, end) Abilities that let units fight first are at the Start of the phase. These are resolved first starting with ALL of the applicable units of the controlling player in which ever order they choose. Then the opposing player can activate any units that can fight first. If either player has a unit that can fight first and fight more then once it occurs during the Start of the phase.

Durring the phase is the same as laid out in the core rules

End of the phase works the same as the Start of the phase.

It's the Start/end of phase abilities that I found interesting. My group always understood it as alternating activations. (if we both have 2 units with start of fight phase we would go ABAB instead of AABB)

It is good that they posted that article. Aside from the errata that is how the rules have always worked but figuring it out meant digging through specific wording in the core rules & commentary. Hopefully they will include this more clearly worded version the next time they print the rules (maybe GHB4?).


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BomBomHotdog wrote:
My group always understood it as alternating activations. (if we both have 2 units with start of fight phase we would go ABAB instead of AABB)

I think your group has a better way of doing it

So having now read the new khorne book, the power cycle has again come down to gloomspite gitz book. Yes there are some thing that powergamers are going to latch on to and dryhump to death like skull crushers. You'll pretty much only see skull crushers in units of 9 so that they are doing d3 mortal wounds per model until you drop them below 6 (so a charging skullcrusher unit is going to hit you for a **** ton of mortal wounds on a 2+ each model)

I'd put this book maybe a half a notch above the gloomspite book. Its a very good book in terms of its art, its fluff, etc. I really liked that you have four different "armies" you can belong to with abilities (like I can be a goretide army and that means something now).

It is astounding that the same team that pushes out gloomspite and the khorne book also just pushed out the skaven and FEC stuff when it comes to power level of the armies though.

I have to admit that article actually confused me more.
That's such an odd way a resolving things, just because they come at the start or end, rather than the normal sequence. I'm still not quite sure -why- that makes it an exception to the sequence beyond 'the article totally says it does'

auticus wrote:
So having now read the new khorne book, the power cycle has again come down to gloomspite gitz book. Yes there are some thing that powergamers are going to latch on to and dryhump to death like skull crushers. You'll pretty much only see skull crushers in units of 9 so that they are doing d3 mortal wounds per model until you drop them below 6 (so a charging skullcrusher unit is going to hit you for a **** ton of mortal wounds on a 2+ each model)

I have not gone through in detail yet, but I think you may be underestimating how unwieldy a 9-man unit becomes when they are on such large bases. Double the MWs on the charge is a big deal, but the difficulty in positioning and ease of screening against such a unit I feel is a big enough downside to even it out.

It is astounding that the same team that pushes out gloomspite and the khorne book also just pushed out the skaven and FEC stuff when it comes to power level of the armies though.

Maybe they are different parts of a larger team, or those two were pushed out with little to no playtesting due to release date shenanigans. It does seem tremendously odd that they would have a definite trend towards improved balance starting with 2.0 interrupted by a sudden release that put together is probably the worst balanced in the game's history, then immediately resuming. If GW releases another well-balanced (relatively) battletome after this I will likely give them the benefit of the doubt. This sort of thing is not totally unprecedented--the LoN book path to glory charts are wildly out of sync with all the others in being of a different power level entirely.

Its consistent in that its a fairly even up and then down cycle. You get a good book or two. Then you get a broken book or two. Then you get a good book or two. Sometimes throw in the opposite of broken and get stinker broken (like kharadron)

Hm, things were all over the place for so long I'm not sure it is worth calling a trend... We will see.

Anyways gone through the Khorne book now, skullcrushers seem like they are the best unit. Loss of ignoring MWs from spells hurts but 3+ save helps more. Thirsters still look a bit undercosted to me, reavers & blood warriors a bit overcosted, and bloodletters still shouldn't be getting a horde discount.

That said the overall design quality and rule clarity has improved markedly from the last khorne tome. I feel like it is much easier in a practical sense to play the army and has more room for conventional tactical play instead of needing to work around layering gimmicks properly.

As a mortal player I have six skull crushers plus a lord on juggernaut. The rest of my army is foot troops from the line and khorgoraths. I also have the FW giant khorgorath but ... he's not really that good.

I think I can at least have entertaining games with that, unless I'm up against the tournament beat stick players running the FEC cheese.

FW needs to seriously look at AoS - heck the Warpgnaw Verminlord had his main signature ability downgraded some and has no command ability (despite all the other Verminlords having one).

That said with the FW AoS team being disbanded last I heard - before they could deliver anything save for a few alternate stormcast heads, it might be that AoS support from FW is still going to be a fickle thing for a few more years as yet. Which is a shame really because the AoS setting is so insanely rich and ripe for a boutique casting company to go wild with the setting - not just factions but monsters, beasts and realm stuff as well.



Also please remember only the Skaven can use cheese - everyone else has to use cheese substitute.

Such a shame aos is neglected by FW. There’s so much potential.

I guess it just shows you how much more a juggernaut 40k is.

auticus wrote:
I guess it just shows you how much more a juggernaut 40k is.

Honestly its not even 40K its Space Marines and Imperials.

Whilst many 40K factions do have models from FW look at races like Tyranids and Eldar - they have a tiny representation of models compared to Imperials. Meanwhile armies like Tau get a random boost of models and armies ilke Dark Eldar have basically nothing (I think they've got 1 model and one upgrade kit).

FW has long had a big dominance of Space Marine and Imperial gear; probably because it sold really well compared to the rest (don't forget its only comparativly recently that FW has become more common - go back 15 or so years and FW stuff was super rare even online); and because its what the FW staff wanted to make.


I think its a symptom of GW's designer led design aspect in the extreme; where the lack of a management push (or where the only push was more marines) has resulted in a heavy bias within the team that is now trickier to repair. Then again FW has been going through a lot of changes as of late and I don't think we properly know where they stand (FW itself might not even be all that settled).



I'd really love to see them take more time for other armies and games; so far AoS has really only had a few stormcast heads and a Chaos dragon which was in the works for ages and ages.

The khornagor monster was AOS as well. Also fantasy had the black fire pass goblin line, and the Tamurkhan book. Black Fire Pass was the 2nd book in the line, but was canceled for moar horuss heresyz.

 Overread wrote:
Also please remember only the Skaven can use cheese - everyone else has to use cheese substitute.

So American 'Cheese' then.


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 Future War Cultist wrote:
Such a shame aos is neglected by FW. There’s so much potential.

Let's get a Tau Manta-sized Kharadron skyvessel and a greater eidolon of mathlann which is a giant aelf rising above a waterspout filled with unmounted allopex.

So, I’m still unhappy about the changes to Skarbrand and the Bloodstoker (affects mortals only), and the lack of “Daemon” being on the MLoK and Mighty Skullcrusher scrolls. Other than that, the book looks FUN! I can run two BTs with a MLoK, all rocking a bunch of attacks, plus a Dark Feast warband that has 4 units of 10 BRs potentially churning out 51 attacks each (BR rule, DF ability, Bloodsecrator, Wrathmongers), re-rolling hits of 1. Add in a huge unit of Bloodcrushers, and watch the opponent not know who to hit. Plus the MLoK has 7 attacks that can rip a whole in reality that insta-gibs nasty targets.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
And tzaangors are mutated; they aren’t actually Daemons or half Daemon. Wrathmonger s are half Daemon. So is Valkia. And she’s listed as mortal. They just don’t make sense. They should get the benefits (and curses) of both.

I responded to this earlier saying these were not daemons, but I have to correct myself on one point as Valkia is described as a "daemon queen" in the recent battletome. I was wrong on that one.