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I think it is well established that if you have an older version of an official GW model, it's still legal regardless of the size creep GW has been on for the last few years.
The old metal Greater Daemons, for example, are roughly the same size or smaller that the current Daemon Prince, while the new GDs are twice that size.

But if someone rolled up with an old GD, no one would begrudge them using it.
But what about conversions?

In general the "Rule of Cool" has made it so that I've personally never had problems with this. Here are some other examples:
Tau Broadsides used to just be Crisis suits with big guns on their back
Necron Wraiths used to just be Warriors with long spine-tails, shoulder blade wings and Edward scissor hands.

In general, how does the community feel about conversions that were either made prior to the new plastic version, or after, that have the size of the older (but still legal) versions?
Personally if sufficient effort is made and the model looks good, I feel no one should have an issue with it.

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You could just stick to what the rules say, that is, you can use any model to represent any datasheet, so long as it is a Citadel Miniature.

Actually, here we don't allow people to use old GD as the new GD ones (Expect for the Slaanesh ones):
You can use them as daemon princes, but the size difference is just too big with how their dathasheets have changed.

Of course, one guy has a old metal bloodthirster in a new-bloodthirster base, on top of a giant pile of skulls to be mostly of the same height, so he has no problems from anyone to use it.

This is one of those "it depends" situations

1) Rule of Cool - this does have an impact. A super cool and well made and painted conversion gets a lot more leeway than something rubbishy. Like it or not quality will be a determining factor in what you can and cannot get away with. Because the game is a visual one many are happy to play against something that is abnormal but just looks freaking awesome on the table.

2) Style of game - a tournament is going to be different to you and your mates playing a game casually on game night. Again the standards for both are different and the tournament might reject you even if its really cool on the grounds of aiming to achieve fair play. Meanwhile a super casual setting people might just not care to worry about it.

3) Model creep - in most cases the size changes from old to new are not all that vast; the greater daemons though are an exception and its clear that the size has changed dramatically. In that light I'd agree with Galas in that most people would not accept the old model as a stand in for the current simply due to the huge difference in size of the models.
GW's general policy of "old counts as new always" is a simple rule that works most times, but has exceptions that most would expect.

4) Modelling for advantage - if you roll up with a rhino with a shoebox sized dozer blade on the front; most are going to start thinking that you're abusing cover rules in the model. Similarly a simple black base representing a lictor in 100% full camouflage is, again, modelling for advantage.
In general if you gain a significant game advantage people might well refuse or require some kind of modifier - eg if the converted model is super small they might measure "to the base and 5 inches up from the base in all directions) rather than to the model itself as a guideline for line of sight*


In general I'd always say if you've a conversion that is very different to the current edition then its always good to check in advance that its ok before you play; and if you can't then either take an alternative list and/or take the current actual model so that you can just use that one. Either of those approaches helps to reduce disappointment and ensure a fair game where both sides are happy to play,


*That said line of sight is always a bit of a tricky mess. Currently you can shoot around corners so long as you can see a spear tip.

 Galas wrote:
Actually, here we don't allow people to use old GD as the new GD ones (Expect for the Slaanesh ones):
You can use them as daemon princes, but the size difference is just too big with how their dathasheets have changed.

While I can certainly see the logic here, I have to say that this just seems mean.
The new models are hella expensive and if you've have the old metal ones for years, you should be penalized for it.
I can certainly applaud modeling them higher and on the bigger bases, but it really shouldn't be needed.

Conversions, however, would probably need to be the same size as the new models. But here in lies my dilemma. What if the conversion was made prior to the existence of the new plastic. Personally, I've never liked metal (although finecast has certainly made me miss it), so I've always strived to create plastic versions.
When the plastic DP came out, it was about the same size as the BT of the time. So I slapped a different head on it, added more armour and Khorne symbols and an axe.
Done, easy BT that everyone was happy with.

Fast forward to the release of the new plastic BT and now my conversion is invalid (as a BT). That doesn't seem fair. I can predict a lot, but not the future.
So in those rare cases, do you deny the player the use of his Citadel model converted with effort just because the current model changed dimensions?
Kinda seems wrong outside of the strictest WYSIWYG of competitive events.

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+1 to Overread's writeup:
Nails all the right points, in the appropriate order of importance.

As always, Rule of Cool is second only to Rule #1.

Another model that has changed its size pretty dramatically is terminators. I have an old RT one and he's almost the size of a new trooper. The new Termies are on bigger bases (25 v 40mm) and are, I'd say, about twice as big as the older counter parts.

I'm not sure that there is any answer to the question of old model v new. But, I feel that if you are willing to kitbash an older model and a newer version appears then you should be willing to kitbash to equal the newer model. To me, it's the price you pay for not using the official model in the first place.

 Galef wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Actually, here we don't allow people to use old GD as the new GD ones (Expect for the Slaanesh ones):
You can use them as daemon princes, but the size difference is just too big with how their dathasheets have changed.

While I can certainly see the logic here, I have to say that this just seems mean.
The new models are hella expensive and if you've have the old metal ones for years, you should be penalized for it.
I can certainly applaud modeling them higher and on the bigger bases, but it really shouldn't be needed.

Conversions, however, would probably need to be the same size as the new models. But here in lies my dilemma. What if the conversion was made prior to the existence of the new plastic. Personally, I've never liked metal (although finecast has certainly made me miss it), so I've always strived to create plastic versions.
When the plastic DP came out, it was about the same size as the BT of the time. So I slapped a different head on it, added more armour and Khorne symbols and an axe.
Done, easy BT that everyone was happy with.

Fast forward to the release of the new plastic BT and now my conversion is invalid (as a BT). That doesn't seem fair. I can predict a lot, but not the future.
So in those rare cases, do you deny the player the use of his Citadel model converted with effort just because the current model changed dimensions?
Kinda seems wrong outside of the strictest WYSIWYG of competitive events.

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Whilst I would certainly let you use the old tiny Greater Daemon or a conversion of similar size (it really doesn't matter whether it is a conversion or when it was made) I would prefer if you used it as a Demon Prince instead. As Galas said, this is kinda special case, as the size difference is quite immense, and there exist another datasheet (Daemon Prince) that can easily be used with the old models, so they're not rendered completely unusable. I certainly don't want to prevent people using their models, so old terminators etc. are fine (new bases would be appreciated though) but sometimes it is better to use the models as something else than that was originally intended.

Granted. I don't play Daemons any more, so this is all just theory.

As others have said, if the dathasheet was the same, in friendly play, I wouldn't have a problem. But they didn't changed just the size. They changed the rules, and Greater Daemons are now powerhouses. Compared the point-costs and dathasheet of a Keeper of Secrets vs one of the other three Greater Demons.

Thats why we don't allow, normally (They are only prohibited in tournaments, in casual games is up for people to decide), to use them as greater demons.
Other units like Terminators, Tactical Marines, etc... have changed in size, and even bases with the years... but the difference isn't really that different, both in size and in rules.

Tournament rules, AFAIK

1. Run it by the TO first
2. Be prepared to play "what WOULD the line of sight be if you had the proper model?" rather than true LOS.

With the way Khorne and Tzeentch older GD spread their wings, I imagine it would be impossible to hide them anyways, so I don't see the issue there.
Nurgle may be a different matter...

All this talk of legal and illegal... is the fun police going to come arrest me if i use some converted model that is 2mm to short than an "official" model? dont think so.

As for expected social norms...... rule of cool but dont expect others to except it.

as for tournaments its on the organizers and no one else.

 Desubot wrote:
All this talk of legal and illegal... is the fun police going to come arrest me if i use some converted model that is 2mm to short than an "official" model?

YES!
They will also destroy your offending models and charge you a fine which is the cost of the call-out plus the cost of the official model (which will be provided to you after destruction of your illegal model).

Failure to comply with their requests can result in additional fines/fees if you cause delay in their delivery of service.



They will also destroy any dice that do not roll perfectly; remove any game aids that are of questionable use and remove any tshirts of an embarrassing nature.




I mean no of course they won't, but many players like to know what is socially generally accepted by other player in the game and conversions is one area where some players might just want to play within the rules and the official models rather than outside of them. To my mind using an old model or a conversion is akin to a house-rule. Your opponent is under no obligation to accept your use of them.

NOW most players will accept without question when it comes to a good conversion or to legacy models. Heck most (esp newer gamers) will likely find them really cool and be interested in them! The Greater Deamons are bit different because they are so big in scale difference that many might consider it "converting for advantage". Hence why many might well have no issue with them as a prince but won't be "as happy" with them as a greater deamon.

It's not even just to do with line of sight andrules; but also a visual thing as well.

 Overread wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
All this talk of legal and illegal... is the fun police going to come arrest me if i use some converted model that is 2mm to short than an "official" model?

YES!
They will also destroy your offending models and charge you a fine which is the cost of the call-out plus the cost of the official model (which will be provided to you after destruction of your illegal model).

Failure to comply with their requests can result in additional fines/fees if you cause delay in their delivery of service.

They will also destroy any dice that do not roll perfectly; remove any game aids that are of questionable use and remove any tshirts of an embarrassing nature.

Exactly like the Vegan Police in Scott Pilgrim. Milk and eggs, .

I'll play against anything roughly a similar size of any officially released model, no matter how old. I'll also handwave even that if it's cool enough, to some extent. Not gonna let a Lord of Change kitbash the size of a Changeling or something hide out of LoS casting spells all game no matter how fluffy it is. If you're trying to abuse it I'll say nah a real [insert model] would be very visible there, otherwise for the most part I'll let it rock. However, I do prefer bases are correct.

Terminators are fine in my book, although I am currently converting my old ones on 25mm bases by gluing their bases on top of Privateer Press style 40mm bases.


Really there is one, and only one, "Super Violator" that I know of. The REALLY old Eldar Avatar. It's basically the size of a Primaris marine.

You're playing with toys in 8th edition rules...
If the primary concern is model sizes then you need to reevaluate allot of issues..