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 Galef wrote:
Here's hoping they FAQ Battle Forged to give the most CPs (like 3 CPs per turn or something) and detachments get dramatically reduced.
I'd be cool with Battalions only giving 2CPs and Brigades giving 5, and all other detachments getting nothing (Aux still -1), so long as Battle Forged is the thing that grants the bulk of CPs.
That evens the playing field a bit more vs soup, since soup wouldn't really get a ton more CPs than mono-factions.

Also, by having BF generate CPs at the start of each turn would cut down dramatically on pre-game shenanigans.

It could be done very easily via FAQ/Errata.

-

Dear Galef,
I wouldn't hope for too much.
GW does neither do sufficient playtesting nor do they care much about tournament play.
However, in the 8th ed., they seem to listen to the player base to a certain extent.
Otherwise, they would have not done some nerfs in the former spring FAQ.
I'm not expecting much but would welcome some changes so that soup Imperium
gets a nerf.
Greeting, WF

Sunny Side Up wrote:


ObSec is already a thing, and should probably be removed from non-Troop Custodes. For Knights, it's already implemented reasonably well, with only very limited access to it, if it's pure Knights.

as someone who plays custodes and doesn't just spam jet bike captains I'd rather not see that happen. Custodes jet bike captain spam can easily be addressed by removing the supreme command detachment from matched play

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I don't think that some mono armies could even field a remotely usuable brigade at 2000 pts. I'm very sure that GK can't. GK can field 2 battalions only due to the fact that it doesn't require the extra units that the brigade does.

Pure GK would suck even if they could generate 24 CP at 2000. Let's just stop using them as an example for something that affects all armies, k?

GK need a new codex, no buff to general rules will fix them and not make something else even better.

 IronBrand wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
More and more I am thinking that 3 CP a turn (which accumulates), with the removal of any CP refunding mechanics is the way to go.

That just creates new problems though because people aren't disincentivised from just taking the best possible combination of units for the points. Like an army of all custodes on bikes or knights lists just taking armigers to replace the cp battery. There needs to be something to encourage people to take a more "balanced" approach in the type of units they take.

Troops, especially <10 point troops, will definitely still be taken in a world where troops don't generate CP. Conscripts were one of the most broken units in 8th's history during a time period when nobody had stratagems so nobody cared about CP generation; troops generally provide board control, which is valuable regardless of any other bonuses so Kabalites and Guardsmen will absolutely still see play. This isn't true of the more elite troop choices but hey they aren't seeing any play now either.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Troops, especially <10 point troops, will definitely still be taken in a world where troops don't generate CP. Conscripts were one of the most broken units in 8th's history during a time period when nobody had stratagems so nobody cared about CP generation; troops generally provide board control, which is valuable regardless of any other bonuses so Kabalites and Guardsmen will absolutely still see play. This isn't true of the more elite troop choices but hey they aren't seeing any play now either.

It'll just be a patrol with whatever is cheapest though to free up as much as they can for the units they actually want to take. You'll just end up with something like someone dropping 6 dark reapers for a warlock and 2 units of rangers instead of them just having something like a warlock, 29 dark reapers, 3 hemlocks and 2 crimson hunters.

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


ObSec is already a thing, and should probably be removed from non-Troop Custodes. For Knights, it's already implemented reasonably well, with only very limited access to it, if it's pure Knights.

as someone who plays custodes and doesn't just spam jet bike captains I'd rather not see that happen. Custodes jet bike captain spam can easily be addressed by removing the supreme command detachment from matched play

Removing a whole type of detachment has many more far reaching consequences for all kinds of armies (including non-Imperial armies already struggling) than walking back a stupid special snowflake rule that shouldn't have been there in the first place (or be granted to all HQ/LoW/FA, etc.. north of 150 points to be fair to everyone)

Sunny Side Up wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


ObSec is already a thing, and should probably be removed from non-Troop Custodes. For Knights, it's already implemented reasonably well, with only very limited access to it, if it's pure Knights.

as someone who plays custodes and doesn't just spam jet bike captains I'd rather not see that happen. Custodes jet bike captain spam can easily be addressed by removing the supreme command detachment from matched play

Removing a whole type of detachment has many more far reaching consequences for all kinds of armies (including non-Imperial armies already struggling) than walking back a stupid special snowflake rule that shouldn't have been there in the first place (or be granted to all HQ/LoW/FA, etc.. north of 150 points to be fair to everyone)

I am sceptical to this, but happy to hear your reasoning.

Specifically, what problems for what armies does the removal of supreme command have?

Stux wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


ObSec is already a thing, and should probably be removed from non-Troop Custodes. For Knights, it's already implemented reasonably well, with only very limited access to it, if it's pure Knights.

as someone who plays custodes and doesn't just spam jet bike captains I'd rather not see that happen. Custodes jet bike captain spam can easily be addressed by removing the supreme command detachment from matched play

Removing a whole type of detachment has many more far reaching consequences for all kinds of armies (including non-Imperial armies already struggling) than walking back a stupid special snowflake rule that shouldn't have been there in the first place (or be granted to all HQ/LoW/FA, etc.. north of 150 points to be fair to everyone)

I am sceptical to this, but happy to hear your reasoning.

Specifically, what problems for what armies does the removal of supreme command have?

it takes away from the diversity of builds and options of ALL armies to preserve a broken special rule of ONE army.

Not sure how there's room to be skeptical about giving everyone the same shot for ObSec instead of slapping it on unkillable "elite" units who are traditionally balanced against units with less damage output and survivability precisely by not having ObSec since .. dunno .. 5th or 4th Edition?

The whole point of ObSec is giving units without great offensive output a way to contribute points to the game (in turn as a means to incentivise players to take those less punchy units to make the visual/composition of a 40K army more "like the background" while also keeping the offensive advantage the "elites" have over the non-elites in the background).

Something worth 200 points and having ObSec needs to be significantly less killy and durable than something worth 200 points without ObSec. That's how you get tactical choices, target priorites and different strategic options into the game in the first place and make it more than just "who rolls more 6s"

Stux wrote:
I am sceptical to this, but happy to hear your reasoning.

Specifically, what problems for what armies does the removal of supreme command have?

One potential example is it stops dark eldar players from taking a supreme command with some combination of craftworlds psykers to give the army the ability to debuff the enemy or throw out some mortal wounds.

BrianDavion wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:


ObSec is already a thing, and should probably be removed from non-Troop Custodes. For Knights, it's already implemented reasonably well, with only very limited access to it, if it's pure Knights.

as someone who plays custodes and doesn't just spam jet bike captains I'd rather not see that happen. Custodes jet bike captain spam can easily be addressed by removing the supreme command detachment from matched play

Dawn eagles full stop captains or not are undercosted, the advantages they have over normal custodes are worth more than they are currently paying for them.
I would say standard custodes need to be a few points cheaper and dawneagles need to be atleast 10 points more per bike.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Strats aren't the problem as their use is tied to a limited resource: CP which is determined by your army comp. The problem is free CP that breaks that mechanic from CP farm style builds.

CP batteries are a problem, sure, but the fact that Stratagems (unfortunately) are not equal and CP are simply "better" and "worse", or "worth more" and "worth less" for different books, depending on how good the stratagems are, will make players always want to shift CP to the detachment that uses those CP most effectively.

Hell, if, as a thought experiment, you would tie CP to certain factions but also add a universal Stratagem to "transfer" CP for a cost along the lines of "Pay 1 CP to turn 2 Guard CP into 2 Knight or BA CP", people would almost certainly use that every game, simply because the value of CP for the BA or Knights is so much higher, that it'd be worth the cost/tax of shifting it over from the Guard.

Well, I'd tie CPs to the detachment which have created them.
CPs shouldn't be allowed to use by other detachments in an army.
This would be a straigthforward restiction which wouldn't need clarifications afterwards.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
More and more I am thinking that 3 CP a turn (which accumulates), with the removal of any CP refunding mechanics is the way to go.

I'd be all in favour of this.

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
More and more I am thinking that 3 CP a turn (which accumulates), with the removal of any CP refunding mechanics is the way to go.

I'd be all in favour of this.

I agree, but you should start with 5CP then turn 2 gain 3CP each turn, there are Pre CP strats/relics/etc...

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
More and more I am thinking that 3 CP a turn (which accumulates), with the removal of any CP refunding mechanics is the way to go.

I'd be all in favour of this.

3CP a turn could be interesting, but what do you do in regards to pre-game stratagems?

Extra relics, unit buffs (BA, Knights and Custodes). Deep strike stratagems, or other deployment stratagems like Eldars Phantasm etc.

Kdash wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
More and more I am thinking that 3 CP a turn (which accumulates), with the removal of any CP refunding mechanics is the way to go.

I'd be all in favour of this.

3CP a turn could be interesting, but what do you do in regards to pre-game stratagems?

Extra relics, unit buffs (BA, Knights and Custodes). Deep strike stratagems, or other deployment stratagems like Eldars Phantasm etc.

You get your first 3 before the game? But then nothing turn 1.

Want to spam deployment shenanigans? That's cool, but you'll have no re-rolls turn 1.

I guess you'd have to spend all your first turn CP on them.

Why not start with 3 pre-game and then generate 3 on the first turn.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why not start with 3 pre-game and then generate 3 on the first turn.

If they rollover then you can use 6 CP on turn one to boost an alpha strike which was one of the main reasons people suggest gaining CP over time. If they don't rollover then you're being punished for not having a pregame stratagem and lets RG strike from the shadows 3 units for free and gives other chapters a free chapter master.

well, we may have a hint in the 2 new codexes that came with rogue trader mini codexes. CP generated by a detachment can only be send on that detachment is in them.

on the subject earlier it was mentioned people woul take armigers in knight games, that is not a bad thing, a full knight army with a lot of armigers would probably be funner to play/against.

on normal custodes jetbikes they are good for the points but far from the most broken thing in the game. Taken as jet bike shield captains though they are closer to the top and maybe adjustments are needed, but I don't think the typical 3 man unit needs re-balancing.

 IronBrand wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Why not start with 3 pre-game and then generate 3 on the first turn.

If they rollover then you can use 6 CP on turn one to boost an alpha strike which was one of the main reasons people suggest gaining CP over time. If they don't rollover then you're being punished for not having a pregame stratagem and lets RG strike from the shadows 3 units for free and gives other chapters a free chapter master.

Agree. The whole point of a resource system is to make that resource limited, not to give everyone all the CP all the time.

When you need to decide between deep strinking units, additional relics and fighting again turn 1, the decision to use a stratagem matters. When you just burn through as many CP as possible to maximize your first turn, the army with the most CP used on the most powerful stratagems simply wins, as proven by the Nova results.

What if you got 3 at deployment and then 3 each turn that don't carry over?


Honestly, though, I think the sad thing is that this means no one will bother taking more than 1 Relic - especially for fun/flavour. It'll just cut too much into deployment rules and the like.

Ok, so, 3 for deployment and first turn combined means that –
Noone will ever take more than 1 additional relic
Pure Knight lists are heavily restricted
Additional Relics and pre-game buffs become more of a 1 off
1/3CP deployment options will rarely get used as it sacrifices you’re first turn options

I’m all for setting a “max” on CP levels, but linking deployment with the first turn in a “max cp per turn” setting is just going to severely limit a lot of armies and their options.

- My 4 Knights and Admech can’t now spend 7CP on 3 relics and traits for my Knights and a relic on the admech.
-Custodes can’t use Victor of the Blood Games and then reasonably expect to use anything else CP wise in their first turn.
-Eldar, Drukari, Thousand Sons, Harlequinns and Deathwatch will never put more than 1 unit into deepstrike. (Custodes likely won’t use the strat ever again)
-Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies stratagem use will hurt even more for the players.
-Tallarn stratagem will never get used in a mono-guard list or soup list.
-Chapter Master and Orbital Bombardment stratagems will never be used. Honour the Chapter will rarely be used.
-All other “orbital bombardment” style stratagems will never get used.
-Deathwatch will rarely get use out of their faction specific stratagems (and none of their combos).
-Blood Angels won’t be able to super power 1 character even for a turn.
-Deathwing Assault will never get used.
-Most Grey Knight combos cease to exist.
-Space Wolves -1 to hit penalty will never get used.
-Guard vox stratagem will never get used.
-Deathstrikes (lol) definitely won’t get used.

A lot of combos won’t be able to be used anymore, due to them having total costs of 4+ CP. Even the ones that cost 3CP will rarely get used due to the likelihood of a simple re-roll requirement somewhere within the turn.

Of course, all the things I’ve pointed out above, are under the assumption that you are spending 3 CP a turn, or want to do something in deployment and your first turn. You can, of course do nothing first turn, do the combo turn 2, and then hope you don’t need to do much turn 3, so you can do stuff again turn 4, but that seriously breaks up the flow of the game imo and will leave a lot of armies out to dry.

If each army was given 3 CP “pre game”. 3 CP for deployment and THEN 3CP a turn, then things could be different (however, Knights again would need that doubling otherwise you might as well just remove Exalted Court and addition Relics from their codex, and then while you’re at it, DVoS, VotBG, +2 relics and other similar stratagems).
All this does though is essentially mean that most factions start the game with 3 relics for free and then potentially turn 1 with 6CP. (“Pre game” CP wouldn’t roll over, but deployment CP would)

As I’ve said before, limiting CP could be a good way to do things going forward, but, you need to account for the vast array of styles and tactics each faction has before you do so. Just because some styles of CP abuse is happening, doesn’t mean that it is the case for every army out there.

Kdash wrote:
Knights again would need that doubling otherwise you might as well just remove Exalted Court and addition Relics from their codex, and then while you’re at it, DVoS, VotBG, +2 relics and other similar stratagems).
All this does though is essentially mean that most factions start the game with 3 relics for free and then potentially turn 1 with 6CP. (“Pre game” CP wouldn’t roll over, but deployment CP would)

This sounds terrific. Actual decisions would have to be made about whether to use the pregame stratagems or take relics.

jaxor1983 wrote:
This sounds terrific. Actual decisions would have to be made about whether to use the pregame stratagems or take relics.

Because the hallmark of a good wargame is one where the players have to decide whether they want a fluffy army or a good army.

 vipoid wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:
This sounds terrific. Actual decisions would have to be made about whether to use the pregame stratagems or take relics.

Because the hallmark of a good wargame is one where the players have to decide whether they want a fluffy army or a good army.

No, the hallmark of a FAIR game is when players don't get to take all the toys with no downsides. Where real tactical decisions matter

But a better solution that is similar to yours is to lower the CPs available by detachments (Battalions get 2, Brigades 5, everything else gets 0 CPs) and in Matched play, a detachment cannot be repeated.
Battle Forged gives you 3CP pregame, and 3CPs at the start of each battle round.

So at deployment, and army with 1 Battalion would have 5 total CPs to spend on pregame stuff.
After that, you "lose" any CPs generated during the game at the end of the Battle round they were generated
This change makes list building for CPs only good for pregame stuff. But mid-game, most factions should be even. And if you can generate or steal CPs, you have to use them or lose them.

-

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so, 3 for deployment and first turn combined means that –
Noone will ever take more than 1 additional relic
Pure Knight lists are heavily restricted
Additional Relics and pre-game buffs become more of a 1 off
1/3CP deployment options will rarely get used as it sacrifices you’re first turn options

I’m all for setting a “max” on CP levels, but linking deployment with the first turn in a “max cp per turn” setting is just going to severely limit a lot of armies and their options.

- My 4 Knights and Admech can’t now spend 7CP on 3 relics and traits for my Knights and a relic on the admech.
-Custodes can’t use Victor of the Blood Games and then reasonably expect to use anything else CP wise in their first turn.
-Eldar, Drukari, Thousand Sons, Harlequinns and Deathwatch will never put more than 1 unit into deepstrike. (Custodes likely won’t use the strat ever again)
-Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies stratagem use will hurt even more for the players.
-Tallarn stratagem will never get used in a mono-guard list or soup list.
-Chapter Master and Orbital Bombardment stratagems will never be used. Honour the Chapter will rarely be used.
-All other “orbital bombardment” style stratagems will never get used.
-Deathwatch will rarely get use out of their faction specific stratagems (and none of their combos).
-Blood Angels won’t be able to super power 1 character even for a turn.
-Deathwing Assault will never get used.
-Most Grey Knight combos cease to exist.
-Space Wolves -1 to hit penalty will never get used.
-Guard vox stratagem will never get used.
-Deathstrikes (lol) definitely won’t get used.

A lot of combos won’t be able to be used anymore, due to them having total costs of 4+ CP. Even the ones that cost 3CP will rarely get used due to the likelihood of a simple re-roll requirement somewhere within the turn.

Of course, all the things I’ve pointed out above, are under the assumption that you are spending 3 CP a turn, or want to do something in deployment and your first turn. You can, of course do nothing first turn, do the combo turn 2, and then hope you don’t need to do much turn 3, so you can do stuff again turn 4, but that seriously breaks up the flow of the game imo and will leave a lot of armies out to dry.

If each army was given 3 CP “pre game”. 3 CP for deployment and THEN 3CP a turn, then things could be different (however, Knights again would need that doubling otherwise you might as well just remove Exalted Court and addition Relics from their codex, and then while you’re at it, DVoS, VotBG, +2 relics and other similar stratagems).
All this does though is essentially mean that most factions start the game with 3 relics for free and then potentially turn 1 with 6CP. (“Pre game” CP wouldn’t roll over, but deployment CP would)

As I’ve said before, limiting CP could be a good way to do things going forward, but, you need to account for the vast array of styles and tactics each faction has before you do so. Just because some styles of CP abuse is happening, doesn’t mean that it is the case for every army out there.

To be fair, most of the things on that list gone sounds quite good to me. Of course, there is some collateral damage that is very much not intended, but the focus should be on the models and not on the stratagems.
You should have to decide whether to get all the best relics or make your knights characters. Having re-rolls turn 1 or deep striking turn two is a decision to make. Currently you just use all the top X stratagems until your run out, no decision needed.
Also keep in mind that a lot of your "won't be used" comes from the stratagem no being costed right or simply weak, which is just magnified by having less CP.

Maybe 3 is not the right number, maybe we should do something like 3 +1 or 2 if your warlord is alive or similar. But I think the game should aim to not allow more than one 3 CP stratagem per turn unless you saved points from last turn.

 Galef wrote:
No, the hallmark of a FAIR game is when players don't get to take all the toys with no downsides. Where real tactical decisions matter

Yes, because taking a sword on an IG character with terrible melee ability is exactly equal to tactically deep striking a unit into a key position on the map.

It's just natural and completely fair for these things to have identical costs.

 Jidmah wrote:

Spoiler:

Kdash wrote:
Ok, so, 3 for deployment and first turn combined means that –
Noone will ever take more than 1 additional relic
Pure Knight lists are heavily restricted
Additional Relics and pre-game buffs become more of a 1 off
1/3CP deployment options will rarely get used as it sacrifices you’re first turn options

I’m all for setting a “max” on CP levels, but linking deployment with the first turn in a “max cp per turn” setting is just going to severely limit a lot of armies and their options.

- My 4 Knights and Admech can’t now spend 7CP on 3 relics and traits for my Knights and a relic on the admech.
-Custodes can’t use Victor of the Blood Games and then reasonably expect to use anything else CP wise in their first turn.
-Eldar, Drukari, Thousand Sons, Harlequinns and Deathwatch will never put more than 1 unit into deepstrike. (Custodes likely won’t use the strat ever again)
-Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, Stygies stratagem use will hurt even more for the players.
-Tallarn stratagem will never get used in a mono-guard list or soup list.
-Chapter Master and Orbital Bombardment stratagems will never be used. Honour the Chapter will rarely be used.
-All other “orbital bombardment” style stratagems will never get used.
-Deathwatch will rarely get use out of their faction specific stratagems (and none of their combos).
-Blood Angels won’t be able to super power 1 character even for a turn.
-Deathwing Assault will never get used.
-Most Grey Knight combos cease to exist.
-Space Wolves -1 to hit penalty will never get used.
-Guard vox stratagem will never get used.
-Deathstrikes (lol) definitely won’t get used.

A lot of combos won’t be able to be used anymore, due to them having total costs of 4+ CP. Even the ones that cost 3CP will rarely get used due to the likelihood of a simple re-roll requirement somewhere within the turn.

Of course, all the things I’ve pointed out above, are under the assumption that you are spending 3 CP a turn, or want to do something in deployment and your first turn. You can, of course do nothing first turn, do the combo turn 2, and then hope you don’t need to do much turn 3, so you can do stuff again turn 4, but that seriously breaks up the flow of the game imo and will leave a lot of armies out to dry.

If each army was given 3 CP “pre game”. 3 CP for deployment and THEN 3CP a turn, then things could be different (however, Knights again would need that doubling otherwise you might as well just remove Exalted Court and addition Relics from their codex, and then while you’re at it, DVoS, VotBG, +2 relics and other similar stratagems).
All this does though is essentially mean that most factions start the game with 3 relics for free and then potentially turn 1 with 6CP. (“Pre game” CP wouldn’t roll over, but deployment CP would)

As I’ve said before, limiting CP could be a good way to do things going forward, but, you need to account for the vast array of styles and tactics each faction has before you do so. Just because some styles of CP abuse is happening, doesn’t mean that it is the case for every army out there.

To be fair, most of the things on that list gone sounds quite good to me. Of course, there is some collateral damage that is very much not intended, but the focus should be on the models and not on the stratagems.
You should have to decide whether to get all the best relics or make your knights characters. Having re-rolls turn 1 or deep striking turn two is a decision to make. Currently you just use all the top X stratagems until your run out, no decision needed.
Also keep in mind that a lot of your "won't be used" comes from the stratagem no being costed right or simply weak, which is just magnified by having less CP.

Maybe 3 is not the right number, maybe we should do something like 3 +1 or 2 if your warlord is alive or similar. But I think the game should aim to not allow more than one 3 CP stratagem per turn unless you saved points from last turn.

I agree that a lot of the “won’t get used” is because of the numbers and the stratagem current costs.

But that is part of the problem. Any move towards fixed CP figures per turn wouldn’t require additional work on stratagem costs and effects.

I have no problem with the decision for the Custodes 3CP charge stratagem being a choice of “charge and nothing else that turn” or “use CP elsewhere”, as it is a powerful stratagem and represents the idea being promoted here perfectly, but, all stratagems and combos would have to be reviewed under such a system to adjust them into line. At which point, I think we’d then just be back at square one as previous “expensive combos” would be just as repeatable every other turn, or even every turn.

I am also slightly concerned about game impact. Prior to the codices being released (back in ye olde Index days) games were still going the same way they are currently. Even without stratagems. One side would destroy a load of units, then the other side would hit back etc etc, with games still being decided in the early turns of the game. Stratagems allow for different builds and ideas to be used as they provide a “power point” for said builds. Yes, some of the combos are currently too powerful, but, the moment we have half the turns in a game potentially being stratagem less, then it goes back to the old “mathhammer wins” argument more so than it is now.

Noone would have a problem if a Smash Captain could only his combo once on turn 1. Noone really has a problem if 3 Knights rock relics and warlord traits. A lot of the combos, used in isolation are pretty reasonable. If someone wants to use 7CP turn 1, or 8CP in deployment then they should still be able to BUT, yes, I agree there should be some kind of penalty for doing so – which there isn’t currently when talking about Imperial Soup specifically.

If I use 7CP to deepstrike 7 Raven Guard units, it’s hardly going to break the game, but it will certainly give my opponent something to stress over if I get first turn. Now, as I could currently spend those 7 and potentially get 3 or 4 back, then, yes, that is where problems start to appear.

CP needs to be adjusted – or at least the farming side of things, but, I don’t believe restricting the levels will do anything other than highlight imbalance elsewhere.

 vipoid wrote:

 Galef wrote:
No, the hallmark of a FAIR game is when players don't get to take all the toys with no downsides. Where real tactical decisions matter

Yes, because taking a sword on an IG character with terrible melee ability is exactly equal to tactically deep striking a unit into a key position on the map.

It's just natural and completely fair for these things to have identical costs.

To be frank tho, the game is based for Narrative, open, and comp play. There is no way to balance a building/painting hobby game with fluff and comp in mind.

And that is why you are suppose to agree how to play with your opponent.