September FAQ Date?

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**CthuluIsSpy**

Yeah, flak armor should probably be downgraded to a 6+.

**Amishprn86**

Jidmah wrote:
Boyz are the only unit which is protected by nothing but a 6+ save. Most horde units have a 5+ or better (5++, fnp) save, which makes them more durable than boyz, even if they are T3.

Um? no? All 3 style of Gants are 6+ (H, T, G) then you have Swarms (rippers), then there is DE RWF's they are 7+ save

**Lemondish**

Maybe we should start expecting successful Kill Team rules to become beta rules for 40k.

Things I like - shooting requires you to get closer to the target to be more effective, cover impacts the ability for your forces to be hit rather than their armour save, the alternate activation (which probably won't happen in 40k yet), etc.

**Tyel**

When people say hordes are a problem they pretty much just mean Guardsmen.

No one (as far as I am aware) complains about gaunts or boyz (although I can see that changing if the codex buffs them at all). Nurgle spam can be annoying, but you don't really see it that often - and other daemons don't really work just running across the table.

You can spam cultists, but apart from that one buffed up unit they are decidedly meh.

Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass. You could try the same with Guardian defenders although I suspect it would be objectively inferior.

I remain suspect that mass fire warriors (i.e. 100+) would be potentially effective, but everyone who plays Tau seems to think I am wrong on this and they should know. Ditto for massed Skitarri.

**Martel732**

I can testify that mass firewarrior is a nightmare.

Kabalites have the best transports in the game. There's not reason to ever go on foot.

Yes, horde = guardsmen for the most part.

**Amishprn86**

Tyel wrote:
When people say hordes are a problem they pretty much just mean Guardsmen.

No one (as far as I am aware) complains about gaunts or boyz (although I can see that changing if the codex buffs them at all). Nurgle spam can be annoying, but you don't really see it that often - and other daemons don't really work just running across the table.

You can spam cultists, but apart from that one buffed up unit they are decidedly meh.

Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass. You could try the same with Guardian defenders although I suspect it would be objectively inferior.

I remain suspect that mass fire warriors (i.e. 100+) would be potentially effective, but everyone who plays Tau seems to think I am wrong on this and they should know. Ditto for massed Skitarri.

Its also Poxwalkers, Cultist, Tzaangors, etc...

Kabals are good, but they are not Horde good, they are good b.c they are just cheap enough to take a Battalion to be worth it, sadly they are not strong enough to take 90+, 15-30 is their magic number. ANd b.c a Venom is just really good, there is no reason to double the number of Kabals when you have a venom.

**Burnage**

Tyel wrote:
Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass.

I would wager that this is due to most Dark Eldar players preferring to keep them in transports, rather than anything objective about their strength. A list that looked something like three Archons, three Ravagers and 180 Kabalites with 18 Blasters would probably work out very well.

**Marmatag**

Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

>Guard have punishers
>Custodes bikes
>marines have hurricane (stormravens, dark angels flyers etc.)
>knights and chaos knights have gatlings
>daemons have bloodletters
> necrons have tesla
>tau got riptides and basicaly everything
> eldar is eldar
> DE have poision spam

Hordes are not a problem atm, they are easly counterable, just many people are not prepared to handle them taking generic weapon or focusing on knights.

Problem is Castellan - unkillable due to 3++, Taloses - unkillable due to 4++ and high T, shining spears and reapers - due to stratagems and soulbursts.

hordes are perforimg well, but they are counterable easly. People see lists Castellan+guard+BA cpt and say guardsmans are problem? No. problem is castellan and spammable smashcpt. without them infantry spam would not work, guard were all about leman russes before castellan come to play.

EDIT: okay, there is one cancerous horde build - plaguebarer spam. I am perfectly fine with nurgle resilient hordes, but why the feth they are almost FASTEST UNIT IN GAME? They just overflow table in 1-2 turns. They could stay but i cannot see any narrative support to rotting guys being so fast

Straken + Priest + Guardsmen + Artillery & Shadowsword is a cancer list.

4ppm models should not have 3 strength 4 attacks rerolling failed hits. That's just fething dumb.

**Sunny Side Up**

Dunno, 200+ Cultists with Abbadon, a fair few Infiltrating, etc.. is easily one of the most obnoxious things currently in 40K, not even considering the fluff-idiocy of cultists throwing around VotLW

**Amishprn86**

Burnage wrote:
Tyel wrote:
Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass.

I would wager that this is due to most Dark Eldar players preferring to keep them in transports, rather than anything objective about their strength. A list that looked something like three Archons, three Ravagers and 180 Kabalites with 18 Blasters would probably work out very well.

And with 8 LD (I know thats not bad) but in 20mans its devastating, you are forced to play 10mans, Just kill 8 in each unit and watch D6 more die, its not hard to kill 8 T3/5+ infantry at all.

**catbarf**

Marmatag wrote:
Straken + Priest + Guardsmen + Artillery & Shadowsword is a cancer list.

4ppm models should not have 3 strength 4 attacks rerolling failed hits. That's just fething dumb.

Where does the re-rolling failed hits come from? Straken and Priest each confer +1A.

And it's not really 4ppm models when you have to spend three whole squads worth of points to get those buffs (with very limited radius), now is it?

**Marmatag**

catbarf wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Straken + Priest + Guardsmen + Artillery & Shadowsword is a cancer list.

4ppm models should not have 3 strength 4 attacks rerolling failed hits. That's just fething dumb.

Where does the re-rolling failed hits come from? Straken and Priest each confer +1A.

And it's not really 4ppm models when you have to spend three whole squads worth of points to get those buffs, now is it?

Considering you have to take HQs anyway, it's not a cost. Straken is 75 points, a priest is 35. Don't forget you can issue orders to these squads, too. Not to mention you could also just pay another 180 points and get 2 commanders and 30 more guardsmen.

**abyrn**

Tyel wrote:
When people say hordes are a problem they pretty much just mean Guardsmen.

No one (as far as I am aware) complains about gaunts or boyz (although I can see that changing if the codex buffs them at all). Nurgle spam can be annoying, but you don't really see it that often - and other daemons don't really work just running across the table.

You can spam cultists, but apart from that one buffed up unit they are decidedly meh.

Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass. You could try the same with Guardian defenders although I suspect it would be objectively inferior.

I remain suspect that mass fire warriors (i.e. 100+) would be potentially effective, but everyone who plays Tau seems to think I am wrong on this and they should know. Ditto for massed Skitarri.

I suspect one of the problems with mass fire warriors is the price of the

box.

**Marmatag**

Marmatag wrote:
catbarf wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
Straken + Priest + Guardsmen + Artillery & Shadowsword is a cancer list.

4ppm models should not have 3 strength 4 attacks rerolling failed hits. That's just fething dumb.

Where does the re-rolling failed hits come from? Straken and Priest each confer +1A.

And it's not really 4ppm models when you have to spend three whole squads worth of points to get those buffs, now is it?

Considering you have to take HQs anyway, it's not a cost. Straken is 75 points, a priest is 35. Don't forget you can issue orders to these squads, too. Not to mention you could also just pay another 180 points and get 2 commanders and 30 more guardsmen.

Oh look i have 60 bodies on the table and 4 HQs to the tune of 410 points. You can literally build an entire list after doing that.

Rapid Fire 24" guns
3 str4 attacks in melee per guy
Orders
Can be blobbed into bigger squads
+10 Command Points
Kurov's Aquila

All for 400 points.

It's dumb. It's just dumb.

**ClockworkZion**

Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

**Lemondish**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

I don't really think a single example is a pattern at this point, eh?

**ClockworkZion**

Lemondish wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

I don't really think a single example is a pattern at this point, eh?

I was just saying that it makes sense that we may see it next week is all.

**Asmodios**

Lemondish wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

I don't really think a single example is a pattern at this point, eh?

Well we know they wanted to wait till after a major event and that the three weeks gave them enough time so i could see them following the same structure

**HuskyWarhammer**

abyrn wrote:
Tyel wrote:
When people say hordes are a problem they pretty much just mean Guardsmen.

No one (as far as I am aware) complains about gaunts or boyz (although I can see that changing if the codex buffs them at all). Nurgle spam can be annoying, but you don't really see it that often - and other daemons don't really work just running across the table.

You can spam cultists, but apart from that one buffed up unit they are decidedly meh.

Kabalites should be mathematically really good - but I have yet to see a list where they are taken on foot on mass. You could try the same with Guardian defenders although I suspect it would be objectively inferior.

I remain suspect that mass fire warriors (i.e. 100+) would be potentially effective, but everyone who plays Tau seems to think I am wrong on this and they should know. Ditto for massed Skitarri.

I suspect one of the problems with mass fire warriors is the price of the box.

My partner plays mass fire warriors, so I've had a lot of experience against that and thought I'd throw in my two cents. They're kind of a 1-trick pony: they're very powerful in a certain bubble and S5 is a great spot to be at because you're not wounding anything on less than 5's...but they're very brittle and very immobile. You also have to have your opponent be dumb enough to get within rapid fire range for them to have that efficiency..

**ClockworkZion**

Asmodios wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

I don't really think a single example is a pattern at this point, eh?

Well we know they wanted to wait till after a major event and that the three weeks gave them enough time so i could see them following the same structure

My thoughts too. We know certain changes are inevitable, and I'm sure they have a massive list of stuff after Cruddace sat in on the invitational and watched how things are broken. I'm just hoping that while they're hammering some nails down, they do something for the armies that need to be lifted up a bit (like monofaction armies).

**Asmodios**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Watched the Long War podcast last night while getting some painting in and they had a good point: the last big FAQ was 3 weeks after Gencon, so 3 weeks after Nova (next week basically) would be about right if they stick to the pattern.

I don't really think a single example is a pattern at this point, eh?

Well we know they wanted to wait till after a major event and that the three weeks gave them enough time so i could see them following the same structure

My thoughts too. We know certain changes are inevitable, and I'm sure they have a massive list of stuff after Cruddace sat in on the invitational and watched how things are broken. I'm just hoping that while they're hammering some nails down, they do something for the armies that need to be lifted up a bit (like monofaction armies).

I hope so too but my guess is we will see a larger change like that in chapter approved.... although we might see a new beta rule that will then be accepted or modified in chapter approved. Actually the more i think about it they are probably doing some rush beta testing on a new beta rule hopefully to curve cp batteries

**Togusa**

bullyboy wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
bullyboy wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
I don't think that the CP increase was necessarily a bad idea..... Giving it to everyone was a bad idea. If they would have given bonus CP to struggling armies to increase their playability it would have made sense. Instead, they simply made it work on armies that could already generate mass CP and thus made souping those even more advantageous

Exactly.

Here I am playing mono Ravenwing, lucky to bring 5-6CP total because of Outrider detachments only, and yet they boost battalions up to +5 CP and Brigades even more. There was nothing wrong with the CPs as they were. It's far better to have fewer CPs so a player has to pick and choose wisely, not provide so many that all the right combos can be done every damn turn.

Many of the issues are due to mass use of CPs to get a desired effect, and armies that are low on CP are handicapped accordingly. hence whey you only really see lists with lots of CPs.

GW should start thinking about specific detachment bonuses and adding them to CA. Speaking in my case..

Ravenwing.....give more than just +1 CP for an Outrider detachment that has units only with the Ravenwing keyword.
Ghostwarriors....Vanguard detachment yields +3CPs instead of +1CP if it contains 3 spirit host units from Elite slot.

And what about Space Marine battle Companies..Demi Companies?

Encourage the use of tacs, assault and devs by boosting their CPs.

I would much prefer to see that employed, rather than the generic +5CP for battalions because you know people are going to spam the cheapest, most efficient Troops choice possible just to get the CPs. It gets really old and boring.

except this is, broadly, what CPs do already, they allow fluffy elite formations, such as raven wing, death wing, Space Wolf Wolf guard etc, well at the same time enchouraging people to sue troops etc in a more standand format by rewarding it. you are not being PUNSIHED for playing Ravenwing, I am being REWARDED for taking a balanced force..

or so the design logic goes.

yeah, so these net lists with 20CPs are balanced? that's a laugh. I'm not sure where an army of 3 scout units deserves more CPs than an army of 3 biker units.

The system is broken currently, and needs a total revamp to be balanced correctly.

Why not adopt the KT method for CP's? You get X for having a battleforged army, and then 1 per turn. If your warlord is alive you get 2 per turn.

So, for example. Bringing a brigade would entitle you to 4 CP
Each turn you would add +2 (if your warlord is alive) to your current pool.
ONLY 1 Stratagem may be played per phase, and players can attempt to deny using rolls.

Now everyone is even.

**Luke_Prowler**

Ordana wrote:
Forfiter wrote:
Guys, we already have good anti-horde weapons, it's not a problem for current meta.

>Guard have punishers
>Custodes bikes
>marines have hurricane (stormravens, dark angels flyers etc.)
>knights and chaos knights have gatlings
>daemons have bloodletters
> necrons have tesla
>tau got riptides and basicaly everything
> eldar is eldar
> DE have poision spam

Hordes are not a problem atm, they are easly counterable, just many people are not prepared to handle them taking generic weapon or focusing on knights.

Problem is Castellan - unkillable due to 3++, Taloses - unkillable due to 4++ and high T, shining spears and reapers - due to stratagems and soulbursts.

hordes are perforimg well, but they are counterable easly. People see lists Castellan+guard+BA cpt and say guardsmans are problem? No. problem is castellan and spammable smashcpt. without them infantry spam would not work, guard were all about leman russes before castellan come to play.

EDIT: okay, there is one cancerous horde build - plaguebarer spam. I am perfectly fine with nurgle resilient hordes, but why the feth they are almost FASTEST UNIT IN GAME? They just overflow table in 1-2 turns. They could stay but i cannot see any narrative support to rotting guys being so fast

Go and take any of those, calculate how many points of Guardsman it kills, and how many points of space marines. And you will see why people are complaining about a lack of anti-horde weapons.

Because people are idiots? That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of those weapons against horde units.

**Marmatag**

"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

**Martel732**

Marmatag wrote:
"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

It's effective once doom enters the picture.

**ClockworkZion**

Martel732 wrote:
Marmatag wrote:
"DE have poison spam"

Poison is ineffective against hordes. Obviously, because it wounds on 4s where guns with STR4 wound on 3s.

Poison is most effective against t5+, which is not horde.

It's effective once doom enters the picture.

Everything is more effective once Doom enters the picture. That's kind of the point of Doom: to make things more effective.

**bananathug**

Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

**Insectum7**

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That would be very against tradition. Since 2nd Ed. I think.

**ClockworkZion**

bananathug wrote:
Please let them nerf doom to only be cast ON <CRAFTWORLD> UNIT. ALLOW THAT UNIT TO RE-ROLL FAILED WOUND ROLLS.

That's not how Doom has worked or should work.

**Bharring**

Then should they rename it to 'Fortunate shooting'? or 'Guide thy killing'?

Because that's not DOOM. Doom is 'You're doomed'. Fell out of bed, but didn't die outright from the ordeal? Reroll. Stub your toe, but it didn't cause massive blood loss? Reroll. Get run over by a semi but somehow survive? Reroll.

It's not about what's shooting you. It's about you being doomed.